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GM Plots, Puppeting etc
The way things are approached, why?

Okay, first off.... We all know who I am... And my history with the GMs is not pretty, but I am going to try to do this so we can get some constructive conversation going between the PLAYERS about the GMs and would appreciate the GMs waiting until a good amount of players have put out their opinions before yelling at me for even bringing this here.

Back when I had my first character everything was alive and well in the game. You had GM alt's around and inspiring RP, handing out simple jobs, encouraging interaction between NPC organizations, introducing players to established player allies/enemies..

All of this revolved around non-fatal yet violent RP. I got shot, stabbed, beat down and bled out. But I was usually revived so my character could learn from his mistakes and learn who to respect.

Things were interesting, I'd die now and then, but I was able to retain a good competitive RP with what I was doing. Things stayed fresh and I was never shut down completely and never felt that a situation wasn't worth pursuing no matter if I knew it was going to effect me in a negative or positive manner. The RP was just good.

This all went to hell in the past couple months when we've lost some of our better GMs to the Real life responsibilities.

Lately as I go through character after character, and arguement after arguement with our current set of active GMs, things have become stale, boring... easy to predict.

I feel as if the GMs have just looked at players as a tool to jump start larger plots, and are doing this by simply killing off characters who are tightly vested with other players, and even if they work at avoiding a situation or fight back with all of their ability that no matter what you're going to die because It was decided that you need to die for the plot to be worthwhile.

What ever happened to rewarding the player by recognizing the player going to extremes ICly to survive?

What happened to the dialouge between a puppeted NPC and a player before he gets beat down... Hell I can even go as far as to say what ever happened to getting beat down instead of outright killed?

I just feel there is alot of tunnel vision going on for the GMs lately. You have an idea, you carry it out and you have your way.

What ever happened to RPing on the fly? The players have to do it, the GMs should be doing it to.

Puppet an NPC go have a drink at the drome, disrespect someone, get involved in the conversations, make up some fake paydata, do something to make the RP seem real.

Having some random dumbass start trying to kill your character when you've done nothing to inspire the situation other than being alive as your character is just rehashed generic bullshit.

If you don't have the time to make these interactions seem apart of the world around the players, then don't do it. Wait till you have more time to invest.

Players are best outright killed by other players, and GM interactions are best carried out to entice players to go after other players, this is my honest opinion.

GMs set the theme, they shouldn't decide the cut and dry death of players unless the player is doing shit to completely undermind an NPC or Organization.

Get in there, start some shit. Just make it worth our time.

We need more Ruby's out there. That brought alot of people together and left an event that will be remembered by alot of players. People died, freindships ruined, IC lives altered it was a blast.

You get the GMs thinking on that scale again , going through the same shit players go through and I think this game will be 100x better than it's been in a while.

I have a ton more to say about this shit but I can't be asked until I hear whether I'm as alone in this opinion as some of the admin think.


I was asked to make this post by another person for the sake of encouraging other players to give their opinions on the state of the things in the moo as far as GM Plots/etc go.

Even if you don't agree with me, just say so, but let's try to get everyone whos active in the game to post about it, so this situation can either die and go away or move forward and be dealt with by the proper people.

Thanks.

The one thing I'll say is it's become exceedingly difficult to get a puppet lately and it's gotten to be pretty annoying

as far as the original post is concerned, there are parts I agree with and disagree with. �I'm multitasking right now so my thoughts may not be in order, but meh:


Plots are very volatile, or atleast quite a few of the SD plots I've seen/been involved in are. �Characters usually aren't privvy to the whole scheme of things, which is the way it should be, but it only takes on wrong move for most plots to either be useless or in need of heavy modifications to still work. �Either way, I say kudos to those with the time and patience to hash out these plots.

I agree about the fact that it seems what a character does ICly isn't always taken into consideration with certain plots.  If a character goes to certain extremes and does certain things icly that is unique(or whatever word fits there better) then recognize that, whether it be with a mini-plot to defame/destroy that person or to let that person reap the benefits of their actions.

Bleh, I'll finish in a bit, bastards just gave me more work

(Edited by Ramsey at 6:04 pm on Aug. 21, 2008)

I've always favoured a kind of GM-lite approach to plots, little and often, keep the players on their toes and keep it varied. Generally speaking if players pick up and run with something I'll play it out into a bigger plot, other mini events will fade away but still add some colour to the game.

I'm fairly sure I've never killed a player while puppeting, it's something I'd go out of my way to avoid doing unless it added something extremely significant to the plot line. Infact years back when I was running the sniper plot (long before sniper rifles were in game) I "massaged" the code a little to stop some of the snipers victims from bleeding to death, not that they ever knew that. Infact, if I wanted to punish/grind down a character I reckon it'd be far more rewarding for all concerned to keep him alive and have the world and its dog shit on him. Or turn players against each other through NPC's...

Back in the day my favoured pretentious line to new GM's was some waffle about "pebbles in the pond", it's our job to toss small things into the game and let the ripples spread out and interact in subtle ways. Chucking a great big rock into the pond might feel satisfying, but it'll fuck up all the other ripples and fade out just as quick.

So far so good I guess.

I just wanted to respond on a few points.


As far as Characters not knowing whats going on with a plot, and keeping it that way I totally agree.

But only in the sense that the GM has yet to come up with the fate of involved players because he is waiting to see how the players react to what he is doing.

There should never be some pre-ordained path where players futures are pretty much decided without actually playing the scenario out. If thats how we're doing things now then why even bother RPing? Give me a script and Ill copy paste it back at the GM, because that's all it is.

And on what Rastus said about the little things, this is absolutely what made SD so much fun for me whether it as a negative or positive experiance for my character.

The little things that grew around your character and inspired your character to shift alliances and friendships...

All these little things inserted to upset the balance of a developed social order.

They could have HUGE consequences across MANY players and required sometimes minimal effort.

You exploit the weaknesses of player interactions and insert some CHAOS into the mix then let the players tear each other apart and even form new alliances, new business deals, new avenues of RP that wouldnt have happened without it.

There were even be situations where tested friendships would prevail and the GMs efforts would fizzle out, this is a good thing as well.

Ah well that's enough for now =-p

Fuck the GM's. Make shit happen on your own.

First off, if your characters are dying, STOP WHINING!!!  It's a cyberpunk game with many many risks.  Dying is a huge part of the game, and its my opinion that one of the problems with the game is certain oldbies that are too weak to part with their current characters.  That's another post entirely tho, and has little relavince here.

That said, killing, without any rp or dialogue is weak, lame, and totally pisses everyone off that it happens to.  If your a GM that applies double.

I've had, and have heard of problems here and there as far as getting GMs puppeting "service" oriented npc's.  Docs, fixers, and the like.  I have not personally had problems with GM's as far as RP goes tho.

I'm currently involved in a amazing plot, that is moving slow, thats mainly because it's player ran from what I can tell, and the involved players have RL to deal with and can't always play at the same time.  I hope it's further suppored by GM's and it has been for the most part so far.  

I could go on and on about what I think GM's should do that their not doing.  I could also go on about good things gm's have done.  The bottom line is we're all people, when we interact with other people, we're going to like some things they do, and we're not going to like some things they do, and that's never going to change.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 6:04 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]Fuck the GM's. Make shit happen on your own.

I lost my xhelp and GM support for a week or two and was forced to do everything on my own.. Income.. RP, everything..

It was actually much more rewarding than GM plotting has been in a very long time.

Until the GMs started deciding to intervene just to kill my characters off.

-shrug-

Quote: from Jotun on 6:09 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]First off, if your characters are dying, STOP WHINING!!! �It's a cyberpunk game with many many risks. �Dying is a huge part of the game, and its my opinion that one of the problems with the game is certain oldbies that are too weak to part with their current characters. �That's another post entirely tho, and has little relavince here.

That said, killing, without any rp or dialogue is weak, lame, and totally pisses everyone off that it happens to. �If your a GM that applies double.

I've had, and have heard of problems here and there as far as getting GMs puppeting "service" oriented npc's. �Docs, fixers, and the like. �I have not personally had problems with GM's as far as RP goes tho.

I'm currently involved in a amazing plot, that is moving slow, thats mainly because it's player ran from what I can tell, and the involved players have RL to deal with and can't always play at the same time. �I hope it's further suppored by GM's and it has been for the most part so far. �

I could go on and on about what I think GM's should do that their not doing. �I could also go on about good things gm's have done. �The bottom line is we're all people, when we interact with other people, we're going to like some things they do, and we're not going to like some things they do, and that's never going to change.

Its not about dying, baka....

GMs are there to enhance the RP experiance with the theme and interactions with the NPCs of the world.

and to support bugs and player issues.

Dying can be a very good tool for enhancing RP but usually when the situation is fully explored and something drastic needs to happen.

This is a CP game and theirs cloning, that's no excuse for wiping people out without RP.

RPing is about the experiance, it's about the process from getting from one point to another.

It's not about the end result, or the bigger picture.  It's every little thing your character goes through, experiances, likes, hates, everything to get to that point.

And i'm seeing less and less acknowledgement to that in the GMs actions lately and that is the problem here.

That's my underlining point.

I really hate this shit. GM's are busy, and I really don't like to judge people on what they do for others WITH their spare time.But...I wouldn't be handling shit this way AT all.

As of late, I've had experiences that really turned me off...but like Jotun said, it's a fucking cyberpunk game. That's what its all about. So I swallowed it and decided in order to be happy playing SD I had to protect myself from GM's as much as I do IC enemies in the game...but that's not what aggrevates me.

I feel like there are no factions, no secrets...no nothing anymore. I think the players are just as much at fault for this as the GM's. Its far too easy to play both sides these days. And if anything, I think there should be more blood...but there shouldn't be blood without reason which is pretty much all I've seen lately. I also get aggrevated by silly things though, Cruisers left open for 3 weeks for example...with shotguns sitting in them...waiting to be stolen.

Maybe I'm just out of touch but I don't feel the presence of the invisible puppet strings of the corporate council anymore, criminal faction...rogue elements. Its all just rabble and then the random power player of the mix. Three guys moving guns, with no real RP behind them...no motiviation. Its just not how I like things but that's just me. I am fully capable of making myself happy and working the game to my liking. So by all means, do whatever...

I don't wanna bitch, I don't even wanna write this post but apparently someone wants to know my feelings and honestly...if anyone really does. Ask me in-game and we'll talk on AIM or something because this isn't my style. Things could be better, things could be worse...I ain't ever paid for SD. Whatever.

Reefer that's exactly what I was getting at.  There's no multiple groups fighting, it's 1 group and if your not with em, your getting fucked.

the CP, corps pulling strings, rival factions aganst eachother.  it ain't there.

Plots are a hard thing to develop tho.  I've had a huge, superfun, and interesting one ruined, partially by lack of gm support, partially by little stupid things that happened to ruin it.  It happens.

Plots should never have a determined outcome, I fully support that position.  And gm made plots shouldn't have the aim of killing PC's for the most part.  Killing other gm's or NPC would be nice sometimes tho!

More action, in the form of violence is probably necessary tho.  And the fact that theres no disputing factions that are of great concern is what hinders that.  My RP's going very well tho, I'm a bit glad it's outside that whole scenario  for now!

(Edited by Jotun at 9:48 am on Aug. 22, 2008)

I think what DigitalTyranny is trying to say is that he's tired of the GMs squishing RP before it can start. When you kill a character with an NPC there should be a certain level of RP that is involved, which I get from his post that he doesn't feel like he's getting.

I agree it's frustrating when you are trying to do something and the GMs don't have time to do it. But what's even -more- frustrating is getting an shortcut RP session just to get you off their backs. If there's no time then don't do a half-assed attempt at it.

My frustration with the game lately is similar probably to what Reefer is saying about lack of factions, fighting bla bla bla. But I've been doing what I can to beef it up myself with little luck simply because I'm not on when a lot of people are. What I don't like is getting called FluffyBunny b/c I don't do anything when it's not my fault that nothing is being done. So quit it. I do what I can with the resources I have when I'm on.

That being said. I don't think it's all the GMs that are at fault here. There has been less on on a regular basis lately but real life comes first. Trying to start shit amongst players to get things into gear is one thing, but when it comes to the point of killing a character with little/no RP when it doesn't stir things up. That's just wrong.

(Edited by Lillith at 10:44 am on Aug. 22, 2008)

I'd like to address some points. �I can personally say that we always keep options open. �We never craft a plot and during it 'decide' for sure that someone is or isn't going to die.

I like to think of it as dominoes. �We set them up, the player comes along and knocks them down, but.. they don't always fall the way we reckon they might, an interaction, a murder, a sidestep, and the line breaks and they stop falling.. or it branches off into another set of dominoes that we, or another player has setup.

That does not mean to say that if a player puts them self in a situation we won't kill them. �Let me use an example.

If a person walks into the Hall of Justice with a gun, what should happen? �Should we 'let them go' or should we play it out in a themely way in which the massive amount of Judges and Clerks milling about in the area all spin around and aim at the person. �The person is then Judged for carrying an illegal weapon and given clone death. �

Should anything else be expected? �I think everyone has gotten used to the game being easier, and less thought having to go into actions. �It used to be you had to plan going topside, even if you weren't a criminal. �Maybe pay someone to cause a diversion so you could avoid the judges and get your clone updated or deposit some money in the bank without getting fined for being a dirty mixer.

A lot of you have said that there are no organizations ICly that -do- anything. �I want to change that, but it's a long process. �It takes maintenance like anything else in the game.

We lay down laws ICly, both with the Judges and the Gangs and any other orginization and if they are broken, their must be consequences, otherwise you have people walking around in flagrant disobedience of the laws, and nothing happening. �

Yes, their should be a level of RP. �But who decides what that level is? �What is good for you might not be good for another character. �The bottom line in this situation is that we as GMs tend more to react to situations that players put themselves in, in cases like Judges. �

When is the last time anyone can remember a group of NPC Judges planned premeditatedly and went after a person specifically and with the intention on KILLING them. �Not a mixed group of PC/NPC, but just NPCs. �Without player provocation? �I can't remember a time. �Not saying it hasn't happened.. just saying it's not often.

Players put themselves in situations and based on the theme we as GMs react accordingly. �Walk around GOLD in a dirty blood covered protek trench? �Expect a visit from a Judge. �Carry a gun in the Mallplex? �Expect clone death. �Kill a Judge? �Expect to be hunted. �Kill an NLM personality, expect corp sec to kill your family and dip you in their ashes before they cut off your face!

You should expect us to say 'Great job RPing your character to their stats, great job RPing. �Wonder what will come out of this?'

What you should not expect is that you can get out of EVERY situation, simply by RPing. �Sometimes your going to catch a beat down, more likely your going to catch clone death. �Don't expect the GMs to say 'well hey he/she really tried in his/her role playing, lets cut them a break and not kill them when they put themselves in a situation that should result in their death or the loss of some gear.' �It's those compromises that have put us in the situation we are today. �Where we all feel as though the organizations and connections that should exist Icly, don't.

A lot of this is my fault. �When I became a GM I vowed to do things differently from the Gms before me that often times made me feel bad when I did something stupid. �The Gms that were uncompromising when it came to what was themely and what was not. �But now, I look back and realize that was just trial by fire. �It made me afraid to go to GOLD, it made me afraid to screw with certain NPCs. �So when I did go to Gold and I did mess with those NPCs, it was with the understanding that I could be killed, cryo'd, banished, betrayed, even permed, if I misspoke, misstepped, or simply didn't pick up on something that was going on. �And you know what? �That made my RP sooo much better. �Real fear. �Real anger. �Real hope and hatred and emotion. �Because their were real consequences to my actions and the 'quality' of my RP was looked at with a smile, but it didn't change anything. �It was the direction I took my RP that was the only thing that had any bearing on how the plots moved and how I was treated Icly.

From what most of you have said, that is the direction you want the game to go in. �That is what you feel as though you've been missing. �Everything is bland because your actions, no matter how good or how bad don't seem to have any effect on the outcome. �I would like that to change.

I am all about the small touches, the subtle interactions. �Because I have to be. �I am not capable of Iga-esqe plot lines that sprawl for months and leave you with a divine sense of fulfillment and sporadic confusion when it's all over.

I plan to take everything I've heard here into account, and you can bet the Gms are discussing it behind the scenes. �I would just like to thank everyone for putting their arguments forth in a way that didn't make me angry when I read them. �That really helped me at least, to see past my own pride or whatever and really listen to what you had to say.

(Edited by Slither at 2:01 pm on Aug. 22, 2008)

(Edited by Slither at 2:03 pm on Aug. 22, 2008)

I guess... I don't know where to begin. I'm going to write this post as a person being involved with this game for over 8 years as opposed to posting as a GM. I want to try to supplement Slither's post with my own ideas from simple experience.

I've seen this place move from highs to lows more times than I can count... be it strings of RP or simply numbers of people online. One thing that is in common throughout it all: Someone is always unhappy. That's kind of the point though... for someone to win, someone usually must lose.

The point of this entire thread is that something isn't being handled correctly. Now while I agree 100% that RP should always be involved before most fighting and/or deaths... I could also see how occasionally the stealth attack is needed for IC reasons but shouldn't always be utilized. This leads me to my biggest point...

Things are the way they are because someone forced it to be that way. Why to people jump out of the shadows to attack someone else? Because anytime they step out of the shadows to talk to someone they want to beat... said person stealths and runs away. This in and of itself is pathetic. There are a number of times I've wished that stealth code was turned off for a while to allow things to happen without it. I think it is a great tool but I feel as if it has been abused in the last few years to an un-precedented event. Sure... my player is cuffed and running from four gangers while bleeding out every orrifice and covered in blood... but let me hide in this hallway. The code unfortunately cannot be perfect...

As for the idea that there is only one power out there... I can speak from experience in saying that it is terribly hard to find an enemy you can constantly be against without killing everytime you see them. I did have some with my first character; Lucifer in his interactions with both Moss and Nicadeamus. Neither side wanted to just kill the other person for fear off massive retaliation... (MAD) yet they took every opportunity to knock the other person out at the knees.

The GMs cannot simply create meta-groups to have players cling too... its been tried. People rely too much on the group and not on their own endeavors. Players have to create those lines... for a while the GM alts (most of them old players) were used to draw those lines. But then we got to a point where people complained because the alts were too powerful... so what happened? Instead of continuing on with the themely-ness off it some were killed off. Others went into hiding... why? We wanted there to be more of a balance... but without those players there the lines have shifted to simple group.

I don't want to get angry at some of these insinuations and I don't want to rant... but I honestly believe that some of these posts are completely unbelievable. Yes this game may be in a bit of a downward time... I haven't had much time to devote to GMing so like Lillith posted I haven't been GMing simply because I don't want to do it half assed. Yes things aren't as emotional as they have been (and as Slither said we're trying to put some of these changes into motion)... Yes. Most of the players are not helping. This is why I think that some of this is unbelievable... the GMs can only do so much as the players are willing to do. Why put a ton of effort into building a plot for a character that doesn't want to flesh out their own existence and history?

Let me elaborate.

Creating characters starting shit, getting killed and then making a new one does not create RP... it creates broken threads that confuse the true RP. It also makes it ridiculously hard for a GM when they spent an hour working out a plot for someone who just went to the light. I think Reefer put it best... fuck the GMs; create your own RP. GMs are there to supplement and help... not write a script and make you dance to it. Frankly anyone who says that the GMs suck needs to go re-evaluate their existence simply because the GMs have always been volunteers... when I was only a player way back when I respected them simply because they made the game possible. If there are issues with puppeting at the moment, thats probably because there isn't a GM there or they don't have time to reply and take over with the puppet. Which begs the question... if you need a puppet that badly... can't you come back when someone is available? I really hate when people ask for a puppet but I understand that currently people aren't always around to get them and I can respect their asking.

I also want to address the whole 'scripted' thing a bit in depth. Sometimes the RPs will have a couple of set outcomes based on how a player reacts simply because there's a needed end result. An example. A while back half the playerbase was in the lockups at WHJ... so what did the GMs do? They blew up the lobby and staged a jailbreak. End result... some people were going to get out. Who? Fuck if I know. Depended on the players! Sometimes things need to have scripted moments in order to make the RP actually work... otherwise it gets convaluded and confusing because there is no directions or any point to it.

The players make this game... the GMs just push around a few pieces so that there is an ever-flowing environment. I'll use this time to end this post with my most important point.

Fluffybunny. It's a word that we've used a lot lately... some of it warranted... some of it not. Someone complaining because they died when they put themselves into an impossible situation is fluffybunny. Someone saying 'nah, it's ok' after someone just shot them in the face is fluffybunny. Someone not going after the mother, father, sister, brother, cousin, nephew, or second fuckall because that fat fuck stole all your money when a deal went bad is fluffybunny. Killing someone with no RP is fluffybunny. Yes... I said it. Death, fighting, and combat can be used as fluffybunny means. Going to the light when your character is in some heat is terrribly fluffybunny. The best moments of my time in this game were when I had to run, jump, and practically pray that I got away from someone or got out of a situation... pulling that string that got that murder framed on that person instead of myself... that shit was awesome. We have the player-base currently to do some monumental stuff... GMs just can't do it all for you. Use your histories!! Throw that extra chyen around.

So your friend has a bunch of money? Fuck him over and make a new enemy... everyone is friends with everyone these days... and unfortunately that means that if one person fucks over someone else that usually means they fucked over everyone else. This creates a cycle that perpetuates the whole fluffybunny-ness of the game.

Remember... this is cyberpunk. Its dark. Its dirty. Its real. I cringe everytime I see something like baby-talk to an NPC or in a crowded room. Cringe. I fully expect everyone in the room to look laugh, and maybe pull a gun just because they can. Which is the point... people talking like that on RED would be an easy-ass target for one of the starving people in the streets. Thats just my opinion though... RED's whole point is to carve out the weak and propel the strong.

All of this complaining (besides the lack of puppeting) really can weigh on a GM... I really appreciate the manner in which all of you are trying to be respectful of one another... but the fact remains that if someone who is putting in hours of volunteer work has nothing to work with... you can't really call them out and say they're doing a bad job. That's just my opinion at least... and I do apologize for not being around. When I was at work I was able to do those simple puppets when people needed... my time is limited at the moment and hopefully I can remedy that soon. I hope more discussion spins from this... I just hope it's in the direction of EVERYONE putting in the work as opposed to GMs need to change something...

It may not look it, but GMs almost always listen to what people say... discuss it... and then make subtle changes to things. Like someone said before... we throw pebbles... not bricks. If you are confused about something happening... it may be because you're only looking at one page of what will eventually be a small novel.

Hope this has been helpful.

I can't help but make this sound ass-kissy, but I'm impressed with what both of you had to say, most of all Slither.  Maybe we should have onna those meetings.  You all remember when we logged in and sat down and chatted.  I think that went well.... seemed to anyway.

On a slightly less serious but still very serious note... I vote Wren gets a Justice title. :P

I think more people should contribute though. It's a bit serious, as it should be, but we all have to remember in the end of the day this is a game. A game we all love, but still a game.

Quote: from Lucifer on 3:34 am on Aug. 23, 2008[br]On a slightly less serious but still very serious note... I vote Wren gets a Justice title. :P

I love liquour.


AHhhhhahhahahahahahaahahah hahahahahahahahahahaahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahha...

That is all I have to say about that.


Being a GM is a really delicate balance, and Rastus has it right that small pebbles are often far more effective. He's the one who coined the term 'pebbles in the pond' and I just stole it and made it my life slogan.

One thing GMs have to really be careful with is powergaming. It is very easy to take the larger information scope you are exposed to and use that in a manner that is not effective to the community or the game balance.

There needs to be a healthy set of reward/punishment as a GM when you interact with players. If you punish a player with something, down the road you should give them a reward. And vice versa. The goal isn't to keep the players down-beaten or desperate, the goal is to have the players slowly growing over a period of months.

Another thing to consider, on the player side, is when to let your character 'go light'. At a certain point your character has no purpose, and really doesn't belong in the game world any more. We all get attached, but at some point it is time to move on. To let some other player take control of the scene, to let your character go out in a blaze of glory and become a part of the game history. That time is different for each player and each character. Sometimes that is a character a few days old, sometimes a few months, and occasionally a few years.

If you ask me, if a character is pushing 3 years, it is way overdue for moving on. Either leaving the dome, leaving the game, or just going light.

My 2 cents.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
Back when I had my first character everything was alive and well in the game. You had GM alt's around and inspiring RP, handing out simple jobs, encouraging interaction between NPC organizations, introducing players to established player allies/enemies...

All of this revolved around non-fatal yet violent RP. I got shot, stabbed, beat down and bled out. But I was usually revived so my character could learn from his mistakes and learn who to respect.

Things were interesting, I'd die now and then, but I was able to retain a good competitive RP with what I was doing. Things stayed fresh and I was never shut down completely and never felt that a situation wasn't worth pursuing no matter if I knew it was going to effect me in a negative or positive manner. The RP was just good.

This all went to hell in the past couple months when we've lost some of our better GMs to the Real life responsibilities.

Lately as I go through character after character, and arguement after arguement with our current set of active GMs, things have become stale, boring... easy to predict.

I'm not going to attack you, and if that's what this sounds like I'm sorry. But I've seen you handed big piles of RP, with chances to do -exactly- what you're saying doesn't happen and you alway opt out and "light" your character. It's not the GM's fault that you do this when there is a bunch of RP to be had and plots to fulfill. You single handedly killed a plot which could have been -awesome-. Again, this isn't an attack, so don't get offended.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
I feel as if the GMs have just looked at players as a tool to jump start larger plots, and are doing this by simply killing off characters who are tightly vested with other players, and even if they work at avoiding a situation or fight back with all of their ability that no matter what you're going to die because It was decided that you need to die for the plot to be worthwhile.

Again, you're the one who goes light, not the admins. I've died more times then i care to remember, but by some twist of fate I'm still around.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
What ever happened to rewarding the player by recognizing the player going to extremes ICly to survive?

What happened to the dialouge between a puppeted NPC and a player before he gets beat down... Hell I can even go as far as to say what ever happened to getting beat down instead of outright killed?

Even if you -are- killed you should have a clone to use. "Death is nothing but a speed bump in the road of life." Get over it. We -all- die. I don't think there's a person here who hasn't died a dozen times at one point or another. That being said, dying without RP is lame, I'm not going to argue that. But, perhaps the reason people don't RP before death anymore is because doing so means unless there are some extenuating circumstance the persons going to just run away. Perhaps the finger shouldn't be pointed at the admins alone, but us as players as well.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
I just feel there is alot of tunnel vision going on for the GMs lately. You have an idea, you carry it out and you have your way.

What ever happened to RPing on the fly? The players have to do it, the GMs should be doing it to.

Puppet an NPC go have a drink at the drome, disrespect someone, get involved in the conversations, make up some fake paydata, do something to make the RP seem real.

Having some random dumbass start trying to kill your character when you've done nothing to inspire the situation other than being alive as your character is just rehashed generic bullshit.

I've heard from more then one admin that they're held to the highest standards by not just Johnny but other admins as well. If there's a random NPC coming out of the shadows and killing you there -is- a reason.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
If you don't have the time to make these interactions seem apart of the world around the players, then don't do it. Wait till you have more time to invest.

Players are best outright killed by other players, and GM interactions are best carried out to entice players to go after other players, this is my honest opinion.

GMs set the theme, they shouldn't decide the cut and dry death of players unless the player is doing shit to completely undermind an NPC or Organization.

Get in there, start some shit. Just make it worth our time.

Is it only worth your time if you win? I mean honestly, after RPing with you one more then one occasion, I'd rather not do it again. When things go your way you're happy as can be, but the second it looks like you're in trouble you get out of it and start another character and therefore -kill- all RP that could have happened by that entire plot.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
We need more Ruby's out there. That brought alot of people together and left an event that will be remembered by alot of players. People died, freindships ruined, IC lives altered it was a blast.

You get the GMs thinking on that scale again , going through the same shit players go through and I think this game will be 100x better than it's been in a while.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 12:36 pm on Aug. 21, 2008[br]
I was asked to make this post by another person for the sake of encouraging other players to give their opinions on the state of the things in the moo as far as GM Plots/etc go.

Even if you don't agree with me, just say so, but let's try to get everyone whos active in the game to post about it, so this situation can either die and go away or move forward and be dealt with by the proper people.

Now you know how I feel.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 6:11 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]
I lost my xhelp and GM support for a week or two and was forced to do everything on my own.. Income.. RP, everything..

It was actually much more rewarding than GM plotting has been in a very long time.

So... -why- are you complaining? Just curious... Did any of these posts have any meaning?

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 6:18 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]
Until the GMs started deciding to intervene just to kill my characters off.

I'm just going to take a stab at this... Right before the admins started picking on you again... Did you do something to someone or a group to piss them off?

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 6:18 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]
GMs are there to enhance the RP experiance with the theme and interactions with the NPCs of the world.

Yeah, that is what they're here for. But, like I said earlier, we can't point the finger at them entirely. A lot of this is the fault of me and you and other players.

Quote: from DigitalTyranny on 6:18 am on Aug. 22, 2008[br]
This is a CP game and theirs cloning, that's no excuse for wiping people out without RP.

RPing is about the experiance, it's about the process from getting from one point to another.

It's not about the end result, or the bigger picture.  It's every little thing your character goes through, experiances, likes, hates, everything to get to that point.

And i'm seeing less and less acknowledgement to that in the GMs actions lately and that is the problem here.

So... you're mad because... the GM's are killing you after you do something that would justify killing you? Trust me, if the admins killed you... you deserved it.

I think we all need to understand that these guys do have jobs and lives, so when there isn't one around to be a puppet at every moment we just have to deal with it.

Second of all, yes the GM's do have more control over what happens in the game then we do, but we ultimately have the choice of what happens. If you don't like where something is going, don't leave your cube, avoid the hangouts of people you just pissed off, it's real easy.

I'm not trying to attack -anyone- in this post, so if it sounds like it then to bad, don't be so sensitive. You point this at the GM's and Admins like they control what you do and say, but they don't.

That being said I do remember when having an enemy didn't mean you'd be killed. They'd fuck up your business, take your girl, do whatever they could to make you -wish- you were dead. More then once I've had enemies, but we'd sit down and have beers and talk. We need more of that and that's on only one group of people: The Players.

I have to agree with Reefer: Fuck the GM's, do it yourself. I remember sitting down with a GM and asking him, "What can I do to stir up some trouble?" He told me what to do and I did it. So what went wrong? Where did the RP stop?  It all was going so well, I mean this was -big- all kinds of people were involved, things were happening, people were going -nuts-. Where did it die? One player, who I'm not going to mention or even allude to, killed it all because  the motion of RP wasn't going in their direction. Entire RP plot was destroyed, by no fault of the GM's.

My underlying point, the GM's can't be there everytime you want something done. Sometimes we have to be resourceful, figure shit out -without- their help and get more players involved. I bet any player could do -anything- any admin could do but it just might take a little extra work. And that's why you leave them notes, saying "I tried to talk to them to do this, could you drop me a line and lemme know when would be alright?" I've done that and nine times out of then an admin will be on at some point in the next 24 hours and they'll help you...

But enough rambling from me, this is a post from the one and only Romi! She'd have posted it herself, but she isn't registered right now and there was no admin around when she replied.

Quote: from TeHRoMi on 12:36 pm on Aug. 30, 2008[br]
I just wanna add my thoughts about how we can improve some of the issues here rather than get involved in the debate about who's doing/not doing what:
 
I might be the only one who thinks this.. but it's kinda fun when a character gets frustrated by IC events (it creates conflict and thus RP) but not when a player gets frustrated by the game mechanics.  
 
For example, a clone kill can be fun when it stirs RP but a perm kill can be frustrating because it means the (usually unexpected) end of any plots or character development.. and having to start all over again, which unfortunately isn't always great for RP because (in my opinion) the best RP sessions happen when characters have motives and stuff to use against each other.
 
I think that the current system rewards players for logging in (you get XP for being logged in) rather than rewarding players for RP (ie, a system where one player nominates another players RP for XP because they had good interaction with each other) - I also think that a system like the latter mentioned would reward people who get involved with others more, rather than people who just log on and idle for ages.
 
Do we have active PC's that are able to recruit people into the factions? Maybe the leaders can be people that are good at taking initiative and running plots. I see a lot of newbie chars needing jobs and these'd not just a way to make chy, but to have a reason to be involved with people and take sides.
 
~Romi (sorry.. accounts registration seems to be broken)

[/quote]

(Edited by Salvatore at 4:27 am on Aug. 30, 2008)

(Edited by Salvatore at 5:00 am on Aug. 30, 2008)

You know, all of this has been great, alot of interesting points on both side of the wall. �Some upset, others reasonably defensive without dropping bombs. �I applaud the humanity here. �Makes me sort of sad that I haven't been part of these recent events to know what the hell sparked such initiative.

There -are- a few things though I would like to mention. �Seems I have a standing on both sides of the wall, so I'm sort of perched upon it smiling at both sides.

For the players...stealth is pathetic, and were I GM I'd nail abusers to a wall. �I've always thought like that. �Which is why GMing hardly appeals to me, I'd be cruel. �6'5" people are hardly sneaky, especially in a hallway, or my tiny one room appartment. �Use your brain people. �
My char is 5'5" and struts like he's the toughest guy with the largest cod in the city, but -never- (and I don't give a damn if you protest, your a lying bastard) has he just whipped out his toys and carved you up without SOMETHING prior. �Stepping out and saying 'I got you' just to prick your neck hair...something, anything is better than scroll-scroll-scroll-red.
If you shoot my character outright, murder his girl, threaten his children, he's -not- going to be having a drink with you later. �That sort of forgive and forget attitude is...sort of repulsive. �Honestly, would -you- be interested in shaking hands on a deal when you knew the man involved made you watch your gal get cut up, then cut you up and left you bleeding on Gold...nah, lets get a beer, that makes sense.

I'll think of something else later I'm sure for the players, but alas, I have a limited time and no internets. �So this is just coming out without too much prior thought.

Admin, despite my protests, aggressions, I love you guys, you should know that. �And if not, if I've never said thanks to you personally, here it is to you all, thank you, really for being here for me. �Giving me that edge to my otherwise dull and dismal day... (Yeah...its gotten that way, 3 years of nightshift work sorta makes you into...nothing.)

BUT, its your turn to hear my complaints for your side.

As for plots. �I can't honestly say how many have actually been centered, yes, centered around my character. �Alot. �He got fucked alot just trying to figure them out, I play him stupid, for those of you who don't know. �Sometimes it upset me, but I was -into- it, I loved trying to figure the shit out, loved trying to fight life and death battles, knowing that once I beat this guy, there would be a whole troop of Iko waiting closeby, or maybe the Sun, or 13s, or Smith... �But for all the plots that have been centered on him, NOT ONE EVER FINISHED. �One admin set it up, played me, led me, forced me to learn, and then another (of higher rank who never plays) would come and say 'Hey, stop that.' � For those of you that shut down 'Clone-V' (as I call him) �Fuck you, that was one of the funnest plots I ever took part in (thanks for the effort Dusty), having to get people to -believe- that it wasn't me that just shot them in the face was difficult and well worth it. �It was like that with all of the plots. �They'd snare me, lead me in, and suddenly...weeks would go by and the trail would go dead. �All traces gone...that's cold guys. �I resented this game for all those...nothings that could have been amazing.
Against the admin, that's probably the only real rant I had to dish out. �Many years of frustration and unfinished plots. �My char is old, and he's going to continue being around despite being about 4 years, because he's -never- had finality, never actually finished or made anything worthwhile. �Save *coughs* connections...with most of the female cast (and hell, that was never intentional, but you men are well...pussies, its 2093, and women are relatively easy if you know what to push, inhibitions are down, play like REAL man would with a dick, not just fingers). �But I intend to change that when I come back. �For the admin that got my back, sweet ass its time to let the shit fly, for those of you who don't, as always, you'll be on the receiving end of the flying...y'know. �Help me, help you...I don't hear "Your one of the best/funnest" from even you guys because I don't RP properly...

And that's it...probably won't hear from me for a while *sighs*
I hate moving, fucks up everything. �Going to be shitty when I do pack up and move to Boston -.-

Good topic; bump!

I re-read this thread looking for the thread about NPC scavenger code. Since the topic here started about puppeting, may I suggest using scavenger code on NPCs other than the gangers?

This will made trade between levels, inside and outside the city, easier and less time consuming for players and GMs. Is that what the GMs want? I have no idea. Maybe you want to be there for every interaction between the corporate and desert group representatives and PCs.

With regards to puppeting, what system is in place to keep track of NPC-PC interactions? Trades? Business arrangements? Vendettas? We all see the "talk to NPCs like PCs - they remember" things on @who...but how many times have players had to recap conversations they had with NPCs for you? Pretty frequently, right? Just thinking that while it might take up a lot of server space, a running log of things that are said to PCs or that they say might be useful. At least for any involved in RP on a daily basis.

as many of you know I've been here a long time, and up until never used or totally understood @note/@notes.  

As of Just the past 6 mo or so I've started using it and realize that it's a stupendous way to keep track of just this sort of thing.   Will it turn npc's into elephants that remember everygoddamn thing?  no.   but it helps -a lot-

I tend to try to use @notes as much as possible, it works out great to even write out your intentions for different player plots that come around so the GMs have a better idea of what is going on and can come up with some ideas to inject some GM activity into what the players are doing.

Also if you make aware long and short term goals via @notes you're doing nothing but aiding in the GM side content generation for your character.

@Cyberscot - well said.

Bitch:
The last time anyone posted in the GM forums was in March of this year.

Pats: I see FS and Recoil logged in a lot. And Shenron is invis but will usually come to the rescue if you xhelp.

But my question is: What are you guys working on right now? What do you need from us players to help you GM better?

From players? How about keeping IC when you think nobody is watching? oooooh ya that's a big one.

Why do GMs hide?

If we are @invis it's because we are not available to puppet, IE: we are doing coding, planning, or creation of items / rooms / etc.  It basically means we are doing adminly things and are not available.

It also means we may be playing our real characters and do not want to do GM stuff at the moment but are keeping an eye on things in case stuff goes down.

Also, as to the GM forum, we have extensive in game noting systems now, and that forum is all but unused, and has been that way for years.  It's basically just a place to keep more permanent info that new gms can look at to get up to date.

Okay, I get that. But the concept of a GM being online but not available to players is simply not sitting right with me.

I can get that if you're coding, maybe you don't want xhelp getting in the middle of something at a critical moment...but don't you all work from an external file and then only put it into the MOO once it's together?

I can get that if you're playing your bit you might not want to do GM stuff. But should you have that choice?

I also can get the logic behind letting a GM have a super long/infinite idle w/o d/c time...but again, I gotta ask, have you looked at both sides of that?

Put more directly, what is to stop a GM from sitting @invis just because they want to watch players without the obligation of helping them?

No, it doesn't exactly work like that. If we're using VMOO then and editing a verb or large prop then there's an option for it to pop up in a separate window of text to work on. There is always a back and forth to the game though.

Yes, I definitely believe that GMs should have a choice of whether or not they want to play their character or GM. Sometimes their character is an integral part of their GMing activities and they are involved in some sort of plot or RP session. Whether you can see it or not is another story.

Would you prefer everyone logged off and left a minimal amount of people connected to the game? There are also many times that staying logged in have proved helpful in seeing what has happened while somebody was away. I've left for hours and come back to be able to read a full scroll of player activity, bit chat about problems or code or ideas, player cheating, player on player abuse, etc. Had I not been logged many things might not be noticed.

There's nothing to stop a GM from sitting invisible and watching what's going on. For the most part, that's what I do all day. If something pops up and I notice it after the fact I'll take care of it. There are also times when a GM might not feel like interacting with people and want to focus on something else or they're involved in something (building or code) that has them unavailable.

It is very rare that a player's urgent, legitimate xhelps go unanswered. Either nobody is around to help, it isn't important enough to tackle right away, nobody saw it, the current admin online are unable to take care of it right away or do not know enough of about the problem, or that player might be in the doghouse and has lost their GM assistance.

"or that player might be in the doghouse and has lost their GM assistance. "


Especially when ever other phrase that comes out of them is pretty much a fuck you to the GM/admin's.

Love you too, sweetheart.

I just hope I'm the only one. Otherwise maybe all that hate you're on the receiving end of has a cause? Jus' saying.

Don't log in?

I can only think of two people in the "dog house". It is well deserved.

Hypothetically speaking, if we had an active player base of ten. (Not counting GM alts) - that would be 20% of the player base.

And that's a big if.

Are people 'in the dog house' because they disagree with the GMs?
Or is it just the way they express that disagreement?
Or perhaps that when they go through the 'right channels', they are told they are wrong, and yet they continue to disagree?

Are you guys really pissed that I tried to do things IC and OOC to get the players back in the game?

GMs - Who are you building this game for? What is its purpose to you? I'm really interested in a philosophical sense in the vision behind the direction the game is taking.

Nope.

It's because said people can't stay from doing OOC things when nobody is around becuase they know nobody is around, and when they get called on it, they pretty much try and pass off this I can do whatever I want becuase the playerbase has shrunk mindset and they're somehow the savior of SD by going into Kro's and chopping a car right infront of a security camera and some goons, and telling the GM's to fuck off in not so many words.

It really has nothing to do with anything else besides your in-game actions.

It's nice to see a little activity in the BgBB, but might I suggest GM's derailing threads with butt-hurt whining isn't entirely conducive to ongoing discussion.

I love how Rastus is the voice of reason of the Bgbb. It's lovely.

I'm flattered to be the cause of so much "butt hurt" but maybe you should start a separate thread concentrating all that hate. If you would really like to have a public forum discussing my actions/opinions I'm more then happy to oblige but sidetracking these threads dedicated to making things better isn't helping anyone.

Allow me to rehash things...

GMs - Who are you building this game for? What is its purpose to you? I'm really interested in a philosophical sense in the vision behind the direction the game is taking.

Had an Amazing idea today while thinking about this topic (direction for the game). It's a bit radical from the way we do things these days...as far as I know (not really privy to GM stuff). And it's pretty simple but would take a bit of organization. The whole planning part of it would only take maybe a day if you all got together to hash it out! Also easily reversible if it doesn't work out.

But I'd still like to hear from you guys first, since you're the visionaries/movers/shakers/game masters, and I don't want to step on too many toes, or give the impression that I'm telling the GMs to fuck off...I'm trying to do exactly the opposite of that.

Standing by.

bump? was hoping this would have gotten a response by now...

And where would we be without hope...

Since none of the GMs have answered, I guess I will. I'm not really sure what kind of answer you were looking for here. An in-depth look at what the GMs' direction for the game is? or a yes to your idea? Does the organization and planning involve admin or is this something that the players can do themselves?

Most player-created plots or storylines should be fine, as long as they don't conflict with SD theme and canon, player histories and running anything completely new to the game by GMs first before RPing it out and hoping we'll give it the okay just because it already happened.

Thanks for taking the first swing at this FS. I was looking for a big-picture idea of where the current 'administration' is taking this game. Are we just going with the status quo or is there a plan to change anything? Is the main direction from Jman to the GMs just "don't do anything too radical" or are the leaders trying to move us in some direction away from this...stagnance?

As for my ideas, digging them out of the closet and dusting them off...they're not plot ideas, they're more than that, and I may be overstepping my bounds. But they're ideas to be discussed.

1) Have a list of primary trades which we need occupied for 'the Spice to Flow' ICly. A cybernetic doc, a ripper doc, a healer doc. A fixer. A street sam, a TERRA agent, a Judge. A courier. A chemist (or, in reality, a team of them). A desert walker. A reporter/media personality. A religious nut.

Then part of the GMs new role is to ensure that there is ALWAYS a character out there who is The That Thing. If nobody is chargen-ing a Judge, then either pick an existing character with a bent for the law, and groom them through plots and RP and maybe some OOC hinting. Or as a last resort, stand up an NPC. Then when someone rolls through chargen with a judge character, they have to 'best' the existing That Thing.

The problem this idea is trying to solve is the gaps left when somebody leaves or dies off or decides to change trades...they make plots hard to cook up logistically. Stuff like that.

2) Stuff is going a lot better with getting us into the lists of MudConnector. But there's nothing for the people who come here for the first time to really dig into. We just don't have the playerbase to hang out ICly in the courtyard and wait for newbs.
I hate the canned 'missions' thing, but there needs to be something to keep the newest people occupied and interested. Maybe a canned character they can jump into, or even better, a sampler option. Like a chocolate sampler.
How badass would it be if Joe Newbie signs in the first day and is handed the option to be either a canned female or a canned male Mixer, then is let to go wandering in the Dome. But at the end of the day he/she gets told that her character the Next Day will be generated as a corpie. They sign in the next day and try it as a corpie, genned up in Viriisoma or something. The next day a judge, the next day a reporter. Then once they are starting to get the hang of it, they create their own character in full detail, and are already Hooked on Sindome, and know a bit of their way around the Dome. The canned characters can get integrated into little plots by the existing SD characters, and will be easily identifiable by their Generic Character Names.
Experienced SDers should be able to bypass the sampler in chargen.

I had some more but will add them later if this gets some encouragement.

Christ, just make her a GM already, SD's past due for a GM with a bit of fire in the belly and players at heart. Time for a game-changer instead of the role-fillers.

True nuff!

I play one of those described types and I like the plot ideas, I'm not sure about the new character thing, but anything that keeps new people interested I'm willing to back. I am always willing to have in or out of character discussion on any plots. Asumming it doesn't go against any long standing rules.

Shower caused me to remember another idea...

Problem: Grid is Broke; No incentive to be a decker
Problem: Not enough flow of information between non-associated player characters to ever really make plots work between 'clicks' without extensive GM action
Problem: Any single character building up a security/info-gathering network is seen as 'a bad thing'/'a waste of money'

Solution: Make GM 'bits' or a set of NPCs part of one all-seeing all-knowing resource to be drawn off of by players. One stop shopping for "where should I go next/what needs to be done next to advance this plot the way you think it should go". Players can always opt not to use it.

This could be done by making the all-knowing resource a subset of the City Council which is intelligence-gathering, like an FBI/CIA. Or the Grid could just be another name for 'The GMs IC'. Does this kind of already exist with the Loa? Yes. But instead of making it a one-way street with the GM's choosing when they Loa are on/off, make it so that deckers really are the go-to point for gathering any sort of information, and that they can channel the Loa/Query the Grid and ask questions (AND GET ANSWERS/GUIDANCE).

It would be nice to be able to carry around a little headset or your progia while in conversation with your team's decker, who is getting all the blueprints and maps and guidance from 'the grid'. Or to start an inquiry into the money flowing into or out of a business, and to get a meaningful answer like "it seems someone is not recording everything they earn".

Making the grid work as a stand-alone system seems to be a long time in the coming, so why not replace it with GMs actively feeding information ICly to players on either side or a plot? Making each GM have their bit as a grid-identity only makes a more formal point that they are supposed to work through the Grid to get info to players. Or in the case of an FBI/CIA type agency, work through their Agent to manipulate the players.

Quote: from Lena on 10:03 am on Nov. 11, 2010[br]
...or a set of NPCs part of one all-seeing all-knowing resource to be drawn off of by players...

I have no understanding of the Grid besides using it so first off excuse me for whatever.. but that sentence really clicked with me. Every single thing a NPC *sees*, could be converted to juicy data on the grid. The thing is it.. it would still have to be moderated; determining value of data, adding skill-checks, removing pointless worthless data etc.

So, how about you make every NPC a target on the Grid that hackers can attack. Ok no, not every NPC should be on there. Add NPC's for current plots, add NPC's for key opportunities that could create plots. Modify the skill level needed based on the value of data that NPC *sees*. Once an NPC is hacked he disappears for a while and all the data he had stored is now gone. If a GM used an NPC, after the session, he could modify the value and upload to the grid since he just did it instead of of having another GM read through it. I have some other thoughts, but i'll just leave it at a rough idea. If this was what you ment Lena, sorry, I just wanted to expand on your idea.

Also, if you wanted to make it worth while for deckers. You could add something that doesn't require a plot. Make some scripts for them. Not sure if it's virtual or not but stuff like this:

"An unknown user, sends you a message. 1m l00k3n 4 s0m1 2 g37 $um 1nf0. *tells you target*"----Mission accomplished, 2000chy was transfered to your bank account.

Give hacking the same freedom that some other skills have, no required GM actions for a profit.

So, this is the first time I see this thread so I read the whole fucking thing.

I may be reading it wrong, but is DigitalTranny seriously bragging about having internet sex back there?

LMAO

He's a special guy.

Sure wasn't bragging at all. You guys must miss me to be talking about me when I haven't played in many many months.

Yet you're lurking the forums.

I was testing the site for Johnny because the ISP was routing the site to germany and back, but nice attempt there. I only stopped by this time to see what kind of dumbass shit you'd spew in response.

Good work chief! Thanks for your continuation of saveing SD even while banned from the game. You are one in a million.

bump
where is SD heading? what is in stasis, what is going to change in the way the game is run? when's the last time the GMs pow-wowed on this topic?