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Cyberware and Death
Cut 'em out!

You should need to surgically remove cyberware from a dead body. Taking a hatchet or hacksaw and making a rough chop should be adequate to simply remove the part but to get it in a usable form should take some medical skill. Also if you're very naive you might accidentally damage the hardware trying to cut too close so it can fit in your cooler. Speaking of damage, if somebody gets shot in the kidney, should their renal implants still function?

Me thinks that would all depend on whether or not you got shot in both kidneys hehe.  

I like this idea a lot. That way you'd -really- need a ripper doc hm?

Agreed.

cyberware damage during combat-  great idea.

Needing a doc to remove it-not bad idea, but... would hamper the stolen cyberware market if you'd have to find a doc to rip your corpse.   Maybe make it require -not much- med skill, or have a seperate talent like specializing in weapons to ripe warez.   ooh but make you -have- to go to a doc to be taught the talent.    okay I like that idea.  

Let's say person A kills person B for their cyberware.  Normally that's the end of it all and person A has just made some good chyen. I'm proposing that instead of "dropping" cyberware upon death it remains in the body to be removed. Anybody should be able to mutilate a body and cut off a chunk surrounding the cyberware.  But after that the item is "a meaty piece of flesh containing an SK Subdermal Watch". That meaty piece of flesh takes up a lot of space in your cooler and its quite obvious somebody had to die to obtain it. If you take something like that to Gold to get it installed any lawful doctor will refuse you service. Now that meaty piece of flesh has a verb like 'remove meat' or 'pick meat from watch'. At that point you're taking tweezers and a scalpel to pick out the none mechanical parts of the ware. It takes a while to do and if you don't know what you're doing there is a chance you'll damage it (but it should be possible to do without a ripper doc). However  if you want it installed yourself you could always take it to the doctor who is going to install it in you who, for an additional charge, will be glad to remove the traces of its previous owner. The idea is that if you're attacking somebody for a financial gain, you need to bring somebody else in on it. That's another loose mouth with some paydata. That's more realism and more RP.

attacking people for financial gain is usually frowned upon. I am a prime example ;p

Like any piece of equipment, I think cyberware should require periodic maintenance and tuneups.  Like a mechanic does to cars, cybersurgeons should be able to perform maintenance and tuneups for cyberware, so that the installed components remain in optimal condition throughout their usage life.  If a person consistently puts wear and tear on their equipped cyberware via combat damage or long-term use without tuneups, perhaps there should be a chance that that installed piece will malfunction or break in the future.

Speaking of cyberware, perhaps we should begin to include cybernetic limbs of various styles, as well as cybernetic torsos and skulls. �That way when Street Sam X decides to blow off his arm with a grenade, he can go to Ripper Doc Y for an actual in-game piece if equipment that replaces his existing arm. �Which brings to mind limb damage. �If you manage to survive injury and the limb is salvageable, limbs should be capable of being reattached at the appropriate emergency facilities. �Ooh, and if you somehow manage to lose your legs and survive long enough without medical attention, you are forced a la total exhaustion to crawl from room to room. �Of course, this brings to mind the whole concept of body parts in general and their usage/sale on the black market :D

Hrm. Other cyberware/bioware that might be or might not worth generating would include a sort of charisma enhancer. �Call it the VS Pheromone Enhancer or something. �And, for decades we've had the penile implants for all those small-dicked characters out there. �So how about something similar for the female characters--perhaps with bear trap- like teeth or something? What's next for the men after that one comes out? �Some kind of roto-rooter attachment. �Like combat, in the dystopian sex of the future there's a cold war brewing. �And for all of you Red Dwarf fans out there, how about temporary shots of the highly illegal "Luck Virus." The upside is that you are incredibly lucky for a number of days. The down side, since this is cyberpunk? At the end of that time your body liquifies :-D Hrm. What else? Internalized gridphones, quickterms, and comm systems. Combat radar/ECM/comms packages similar to the Battletac stuff from Shadowrun. Shielded and non-shielded versions of each piece of cyberware. �Obvious and non-obvious versions of each type of cyberware. �I want my cybereye to look like my other eye, it should look normal. Hrm. Differing grades of each type of cyberware possibly with differing levels of hardening against physical damage and EMP. �Aside from EMP grenades, other pieces of anti-cyberware weapons. � �

Any thoughts, suggestions, or additions to the list?

Additionally.  Any sort of mucking with corpses while clawing around for cyberware should at a minimum include an understanding of biotech, medicine, and forensics.

How do you unload any skillsofts not knocked outta place from a corpse's slots after a person bites it big time?

Typically, all cyberware and modules (including softs) become items on the corpse.  I dunno of a coded way to make that more interesting.

Any chance we could get something like this working ingame?

I think it'd make the second-hand cybernetics market actually viable without having to modify the NPC cybernetics markets to sustain a player doc, and depending on skill in biotech during extraction you could make it effect the quality of the implants being extracted.

Maybe you could even work something up with a combination of chemisty and biotech that let's you extract samples of injections from a juiced up corpse and synthesize a new injectable in single units.

The potential for lab equipment that goes beyond combat stimulants and recreational drugs is great here.

Medical, Chemistry, and Bio-Tech should have an ingame use in concert rather than individually.

Using Bio Tech to repair cybernetics like a mechanic repairs a car would be cool too, your nailz getting dull after using them for 4 years or your flashboost wearing down? Gotta go into surgery have it removed and "maintenance" done... This actually fits some RL examples of theoretical use of nano machines to extend human life indefinitely.

Regular maintenance would need to be done on the cellular level to counteract the breakdown of cells as they self repair, let's apply this concept to cybernetics and give cyberdocs a regular task to do and prevent all the oldbies with cyberware for years on end from just having a huge jump in performance without having to maintain it.

I'm loving this idea!

Expanding on this idea, I do believe there was another system in the works for black market organ harvesting and i'm not sure if the code was ever finished or started.

I think J-man was brewing something up on it. Being able to harvest organs and put on ice would be the equivilent of a crate run for the ripper doc.

Pay more but limit it to a specifc amount of sales per day or maybe per week if the payout is hire.

If we combine cybernetic maintenance, organ harvesting, injectable synthesizing, with the medical field tasks of healing and reviving in the field and the chemistry field of drug production a Cyberdoc or Ripperdoc would have a very well rounded gaming experience.

And yet another expansion to this idea of a more robust cybernetic mechanic...

Serial numbers on every type of installable item, just like guns, you can register them to an owner, and track them.

People with legitimate installs at the clinics would have their cyberware registered like a pistol permit and you can only get -that- cyberware reinstalled in someone else either by legal transfer of some sort or ripper doc.

The potential for Cyberware to take damage from combat would be interesting. It'd be cool if certain weapons specifically targeted cyberware and could be used to exploit a cybernetic foe. EMP's and the like.

That'd make sense, and like I commented before maybe Cyber docs should be able to repair cybernetics like auto and aero tech skills work.thecraftydragon

I agree that a hardware would need a doc to remove properly. Limbs should be amputable, but anything inside a person would need a doctor, the more critical/smaller/sensible the higher the skill it should take.

It's kinda weird to just kill someone and have the cyberware drop like loot.

Yes.

And it can generate some RP.

Which doc to take it to who won't overcharge you (a lot) and though it is still overcharging, won't say shit?

And just how badly do you want that piece of ware that may not be in the person because of outdated data you have?

Or how would you know if they did have wares inside of their head unless you had some visual, like chip sockets or a cyber eye or recent paydata, and would you have time or the frame of mind to drag a random body during a firefight?

Agreed, I found it weird how easily some uneducated chars can suddenly pop chrome outta corpses. Even recognizing what to look for should pose some challenge.

And ReeferMadness brought up:

The potential for Cyberware to take damage from combat would be interesting. It'd be cool if certain weapons specifically targeted cyberware and could be used to exploit a cybernetic foe. EMP's and the like.

This supposedly happens which is why you have 2 types of neural processors, (ease and difficulty to remove depending on each one, plus, one is made to stay intact during combat and EMP situations) but considering some wares are harder to remove than others plus some have safety features installed, this could mean some creative RP to have the weapon or to take someone down, or even to repair the damage. (straight up Docs to repair? No, but someone with some sort of engineering background, sure.)

A downside: You aren't getting corpse cloned. Your body is being taken, instead of being left where it laid for someone to come along and say 'hey, cool I should clone this guy cause he probably doesn't have one.'

Just an opposite side view of this.

There is that.

Guess we can still use Ripper Docs in some ways.

ICly, maybe the cybernetics becoming removable is like, a feature on them, ya know? Maybe 'quick recovery' cyberware is on mode for 2101.

I can tell you that this was definitely planned to be 'thought about' a year ago however due to the amount of work cybernetics have received in recent years in comparison to other parts of the game, it is on the low end of the priority list until the game receives much needed love else where.

Just randomly throwing ideas, brainstorm style:

A chip that signals your cybersurgeon that the carrier died, and at which location, so they can extract the chrome from your corpse? Or even just beep an ally so they can perhaps avenge you/join the fight in time

A 'vitals reader' that sends your health info to a monitor/another chip.

A 'suicide cerebral cortex' that doesn't just kill you, but makes a huge explosion too. useful for people with sensitive paydata and loose ends.

'longblade' versions of nailz, like blades that come out of your arm (like the cyberpuunk 2027 trailer'

GUN ARMS! Pistol calibre only I suspect

Stunskin: obvoius as fuck (you can see like, wires just underneath their skin) and it does an electrical shock similar to a certain combat vehicle in the game, but perhaps only on people who grapple you, or frisk you, for example. Heck you could even use it to electrify your bladed/metallic weapons? that'd be cool!

Really pushing out the boat now:

SIC hackers (maybe not installable chrome, but like a physical setup thing, like a signal amplifier) that can steal keys over a period of hours

Anti-fall legs/spine. reinforced skeletal setructure plus some kind of 'lock up' ability to survive falls, with suitably cool and dramatic crater when you land.

NANOMACHINES SON (nanos that harden to trauma, effectively counting as armour)

EYE/FINGER GRENADES! Pull your eye.limb out, use it to maybe break out of prison, or to cause a small explosion!

I fully understand why this isn't implemented, due to workload and overall focus. I mean no disrespect by this, and I appreciate the work that developers do.

However, this is something described in the archetype section of this MOO. The first archetype, let alone medical one, under 'Ripper'. An idea not uncommon to cyberpunk themes, a street-side cybernetics doctor, 'repossessor', Slasher-doc/etc. It's an interesting sector of the theme.

I've seen this brought up endlessly, and just wanted to comment. It's a bit sad that some people come in wanting to be more involved in character-interaction based on illicit removals, only to find out at a point, since Sidome's difficulty curve is heavily IC-based, they're missing that aspect. For years.

However, it should be noted that this is something that should also be handled IC'ly. If you don't have training in cybernetics, you don't know where to start, let alone what procedure to do. It's out-of-the way, but it's what we're here for. Character-interaction.

The Ripper's description is somewhat misleading, in terms of things like this. But it's up to us to uphold it.

Yeah, I was under the impression removing surgically implanted cybernetics from a corpse would already have taken some bio - medical skills. I would like to see some chance of damaging said cyberware upon removal without some level of skill.

Having the cyberware drop as loot is not very realistic and somewhat invalidates the 'Ripper' Doc. This type of system is a good example of one that may not seem incredibly important, and yet, it would implement another scenario where players have to interact with each other to get things done. Players dragging corpses to back-alley surgeons for cyberware extraction is very much the imagery I have of the Ripper Doc, and would give that character a means of income, and some great roleplaying opportunities.

As it turns out, I recently discovered if you think you don't need a ripper doc to deal with your corpse spawned cyberware, you're in for a nasty surprise. So, go back to being ripper docs because the mechanics are in place, and the RP you are describing is very much mandatory, despite the fact that they're not required for the actual act of harvesting.

Don't believe me? Try RPing it out. See what comes of it. I think you'll change your tune.

I was more-or-less taking a middle of the road stance.

It's rough to expect that a dev would implement this after focusing on cybernetics, and it can be tedious for a GM to uphold something like that. I was saying that even though a GM may not be on, which is what heavily brings that along, to RP it out, to at least keep some semblance of that aspect kicking without it being supported.

Since time is of the essence, you as a character can't always wait for GM intervention in something like cyberware removal. It's unfair to the GM, they're busy people with likely more interesting things going on. IG/IRL.

Just kinda kippue goin' 'Ay, help the GM's out, call a ripper rather than doin' it alone.'

I'm telling you calling a ripper isn't just a good idea for RP reasons. Mechanics are in place to make them relevant and necessary. It's just not where you think it is, which is 'harvesting from the corpse'. There's still plenty of mechanics to provide balance to ensure you need one around when doing this.

Installation and removal is the biggest part of being a ripper. It's a synth-organic chopshop of a person.

You need to harvest your crops, before you sell them. Otherwise, you're a pimp.

I put RP first in all scenarios, as expected, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes the archetype, which is one of the first things an interested person would see, feels so strange. I was stating that this is the reason why so many people make comments on the system itself, rather than it being something more niche.

The things I was providing was in the intent on giving affirmation of illegal-med goers a pat on the back for making it this far.

I'd just like to state again, that I'm just putting things out there. I appreciate everyone on each end of the spectrum on this, and mean no harm by what I say.

You guys are one of the biggest, nicest dweebs of a community I know.

Installation and removal is the biggest part of being a ripper.

Actually that's not been my experience with cyberware so far, since installation and removal are public services advertised on the street corner. Installation and removal are pretty easy to obtain, from what I've seen. The role of the ripper doc is a different one entirely. One you should discover IC.

As an archetype. Stories and patient interaction is fluid, and completely unpredictable, which is the whole point, and what makes that kind of RP amazing. If you were unable to remove, you would be unable to get more parts, and would fail to meet the needs of certain clients. If you're unable to install, you fail to meet the needs of a vast majority of clients.

Without either, what does that make a Ripper?

Without either, what does that make a Ripper?

Oh, ripper docs can do both, I imagine. That's just not the point of the archetype. That isn't the niche they fill, because that niche (installation and removal) is already filled by cyber surgeons. Ripper docs fill a different niche, one not afforded to 'regular doctors', creating a huge upside compared to a 'regular doctors'. Ripper docs can do things no regular surgeon should.

"A Ripper Doc is a medical doctor skilled in the art and science of implanting and extracting biomechanical devices from humans. "

This is the first line. If they are in fact needed for neither, what is their point?

If they are in fact needed for neither, what is their point?

Context, my friend, is everything. It's not WHAT they can do. It's WHY and HOW they go about doing it.

Sure, there may be some cases where the legality is in question, which gives the ripper doc some usefulness. My main point is, if the system required it for extraction, not only would it be more realistic, it would offer more opportunities for players to pay each other and interact to get things done.

it would offer more opportunities for players to pay each other and interact to get things done.

And I'm trying to explain to you that these mechanics are in place WITHOUT the mechanic you are requesting. You're saying without corpse harvesting, there's no mechanically coded reason to involve ripper docs. But that's really not true!

I'll take your word for it for now. This conversation is relevant to my character, so I will find out sooner or later.

I understand. I only recently learned about the mechanic myself, and I promise you it accomplishes what you're asking for. Thank you for taking my word for it. I'd say more, but these things need to be discovered IC, as per the rules.

You're all focusing on a Ripper dealing with corpses.

A ripper can extract cybernetics from a live person. This is the reference that is already coded.

Corpses is a 'idea' we want to implement down the road HOWEVER as it's been previously stated BioTech has received a LOT of code upgrades versus other areas of the game so it won't get anymore focus until we spread the code love.

A backalley doctor is different, a Ripper is a specialist. I'm in no way saying they're useless, I'm just saying that there's a portion of what makes them wholesale, that feels somewhat neglected, and pointing out why this is a topic that's likely pestering quite a few people.

However, take what I'm saying as that. The point I was trying to make was more towards the fact that in their direct archetype, removal and installation is incredibly important factors, and something a bit odd to leave one part out for so long.

Again, never once said they're useless, or less than just being a good idea, but I was commenting on the fact that it's crucial to their work, according to the material that all newbies will read before even playing.

Ah... Right. I'm probably coming off as an asshole. I'm sorry for bringing up so many issues and failing to explain my side. Just ignore me, I'm sorry.

I have to agree with Kipper, tho I understand you are limited in time and coders. I get why you are not focusing on it now, but really feel it would add a very cool element to the game. I personally appreciate all the ways in which the system pushes players to go to each other to get things done, and anything that perpetuates this will make the game better.

I'm just saying that there's a portion of what makes them wholesale, that feels somewhat neglected

I'm saying your mistaken, you just don't know what the mechanic is that does provide the counter balance, because it's not the one your expecting.