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NPC Gangs
Unbalanced 'terf'

This is just an idea I've had floating around in my head for a while and I thought I would share to see if anyone else had similar opinions or a good idea of how to handle this.

As it stands at the moment. Being NPC's there is no real effect on a gang member when they're killed or on the gang as a whole. I think this should change. NPC's aren't affected by DCD nor do i think they should be, but to add some realism after death I think there should be a random respawn time.

Something like 4-24 hours.

The recent gang war in the mix got me thinking about this because I saw one NPC dead on the street twice during what was a relatively short turf war. Meaning they respawned and rejoined the fray.

I think this could add depth and a lot of realism. Turf wars between gangs could actually have an impact. Because as it stands now. You kill all of a gang, a short while later they're all standing on the street again proclaiming their turf. This isn't a perfect system it just adds consequences.

It also opens avenues for players who have rivals in a gang to be able to have some kind of effect. Because as it stands right now, they merely insta-respawn with pockets full of Chyen to replace their lost gear.

If you want to have a targetted impact on a gang - I would recommend treating the NPC's as you would a normal PC and just @noting your place so GMs know. For example: NPC's have been permed in the past, it just requires a bit more doing.

I like the respawn delay idea.

I like the respawn delay idea too for all the prominent npcs of any group. It adds to realism.

I agree with the whole concept as well

I honestly can't say how I feel about this, considering the fact NPCS are treated like PCs, it takes us the same amount of time it would for an NPC to come out the vats and such.

Also if you're looking for realism, there are A LOT more gang members than NPCs played, so if Gang Members were taken down, new ones would obviously take their place on the streets or else they would be letting their Turf down.

I think a reasonably long respawn timer would be good for any NPC important enough that their name can't be generated on spawn. Otherwise it should probably be fairly short, I would expect.

You also have to consider older characters who can wipe out a whole gang with only a few scratches. How is that fair to anyone? If there were more PCs in gangs than maybe yeah this would be fine but there really isn't.

There are no -or at least shouldn't be- unlimited resources to any group, be it Gangers, Judges, Agents. Whether they would be letting their turf, or organisation down is not an issue, it is what it is in my opinion, a fact. That's what impact means. Otherwise, why bother at all trying to inflict damage on any group of people, if there is no actual cost?

As for the random respawn time for named NPCs (hence not mobs whose names always differ and could always be rookie Judges and Agents, newfish gangers etc) it is proposed I think as a countermeasure as npcs do not suffer the same death disadvantages as a player. No chance for DCD, no cost for cloning, unlimited funds to purchase new gear and weapons. A player who just died needs time to recover -apart from the time needed to clone and get back to his/her base-. A NPC does not. That's what the random respawn would serve, in my view: this gap between death and recovery.

I think that there may be aspects and details that would need further consideration to make such an idea applicable, but the general spirit finds me in agreement.

A ganger does not get their weapons and gear right off the bat right away. I don't know where thats coming from but gangers have to wait for PCs to sell them things which goes through the player economy.

Weapons especially are expensive even for a player to sell too a ganger, so no they do take a lot of time to get regeared.

That was my reasoning behind the post.

A PC has to pay for a new clone, find out what happened cure DCD (if applicable) and recover gear. NPC's (Not just gang members) do not.

I think it could be applied as a blanket to most NPC's. Someone kills Rychek, he isn't going to go straight back to serving drinks. If a storekeep gets murdered they should also have a respawn timer.

It's a balancing. It isn't removing a gangs/NPC's usefulness. It's making consequences for IC actions. Get all your NPC pals killed. You're on your own. Kill all of a rival gang? Take over their turf.

I said it isn't a perfect system. It was an idea I had. And I would like some opinions on it.

Theres a few problems though. One, who would be taking care of the store? That keeps players from being able to buy anything. I'd be better off taking a store keep hostage and screwing them over that way. You aren't just hurting that one person, you screw a lot of people over and it puts the game on pause for people.

What about older characters who can wipe out a whole gang? Once again you're screwing everyone else over. Especially considering RED is where the newbies come and they are just trying to start out. You take away their crate chances and making it even more difficult than it already is for them.

It is possible to perm an NPC, it just takes more effort, if you want to wipe out a gang, which is supposed to have the chy to support problems like this and who knows what other illegal shit too make it. Than do it like you would a strong PC with a lot of power. Because if you have that old character who can hold a street all on it's own because the NPC's don't match to par with them than what?

I worry that combat begins to trump rp in this case and that it might reward wanton NPC violence...which is not always appreciated. I'm intrigued though let me expand on this below:

Ganger Momento's deaths would reset a need for gear, drugs, etc...also costing them an npc-specific bank based on a "weekly salary". If there bank reached below a threshold, they become impoverished, no longer buy drugs and would be slightly weaker for time.

Storekeeper Momento's deaths would damage the "weekly salary" of the gang controlling the turf they inhabited. It would also shutdown the store for period of time hurting potential profits to the stores owner if any. Immi jobs would flow to alternative shops.

To offset murdering oldbies of doom, you would need some very very bad @hate consequences. Bounties, Terra, WJF, autoturrets in shops, and even then there would still be a lot of potential for abuse.

The transitioning of turf also will require a lot of rp. SD doesn't just reward he who kills the most NPC's. Perming NPC's should definitely be a plot worthy affair as well.

I like the idea of NPC consequences that effect the game-world though.

I agree with the delay in respawn time for them too. It adds realism considering they don't get the drawbacks a PC gets when he dies.

They spawn with infinite money ready to buy a weapon from the first PC that has one to sell. Let's be honest. There are loads of cricket bats, heavy bolo machetes and hatchets in PC hands. PCs who will sell them directly to a ganger who just respawned and is ready to buy and join the fray. Unrealistic imo.

It is almost impossible for a PC who respawned to gear up again and be at full strength in half an hour and join the fray, Why shouldn't be difficult for a ganger too?

Pocketface's idea is a very good one and imo it needs to stay on the table.

Okay, I think you’re missing the point here.

1) Nobody said they respawn with their gear. NPC’s have access to the Chyen needed to replace their gear instantly. And this wouldn’t change.

2) And it would be a system that forces you to protect NPC lives as much as you do PC lives. Because if your shopkeep gets dead, you make no money. It isn’t about what is better/worse/whatever in regards to NPC’s it’s simply an idea about a respawn timer.

3) I don’t see your point at all in regards to older characters. That has nothing to do with a respawn timer.

The point here isn’t to weaken anybody. It’s to stop NPC’s killed respawning 5 seconds later. Nobody said anything about perming or otherwise making their lives difficult. I’m not suggesting a turf based system. I was using that as an example. Because at the moment, when the Snakes kill all the Arteries. 5 minutes later. The street is filled with the exact same NPC’s that died. Sometimes even before the attack is over. It’s to simulate time taken to recover, hit the bank, get a clone and then hitch the next Lev back to the mix.

also (and i apologise for the double post) it is a good idea that gangers should lose resources and turf and influence when they get their shit beaten by other gangers who, let's be honest, are there to try and do exactly that: Weaken their rivals.

Except you are missing the biggest crucial thing.

Sometimes Balance takes over Realism.

I still don't see your point tbh. This is about creating balance. As well as adding realism.

NPC longer respawn time is not unbalanced in ANY way. None, nada, niet etc etc. It adds realism without taking back anything. Sin, Fuller and Ashlin can survive just fine without them for a while until they respawn etc.

You're not creating balance, it seems more unbalancing.

One PC can't give the gangers all weapons because of the Earning Cap. That puts a check in keeps gangs from getting weaponized by one person. It also keeps that PC from making ridiculous amounts of money.

I don't mind consequences but something like this would need to be thought out very well.

Also as said earlier, this is an RP game. NPCs shouldn't probably be popping up five minutes later but maybe thirty minutes, give or take for the time for them to go through a death sequence, vat and try and get themselves together long enough to return back to their places.

Earning cap? PC's have found a way around that for a long time now. One PC can resupply a whole gang and make tons of money as long as he knows how. By delaying the respawn time you also deal with that too.

Your not stopping them from doing that if they already are than, the gang will still get resupplied and said PC will still make a lot of money.

I'm kinda torn on this particular issue.

On the one hand, I do understand how the quick and free respawn of NPCs screws with the otherwise carefully balanced game world.

But on the other, I struggle to justify nerfing gang NPCs on the basis of it being unfair or unrealistic that they can get immediately back into the fray. The key point here is that these are big gangs, so just because there are say six targets of a certain gang out and about, even if you kill all of them, you haven't even scratched the surface of their ranks. No one person should be able to, either. Now if you're in a turf war and engaging in something actually RP significant (besides killing all the gangers who @hate you so you have free access in a given region, which is pure and unadulterated metagaming. It's a rare thing, but I have witnessed multiple players do this.), then please get the staff involved so they can affect such a change on the game world.

I think it'd be better for staff to accommodate the exceptions where such a conflict would deserve IC notice/change, than to make it standard that one or a few PCs can easily influence or affect street gangs that have absolutely ridiculous numbers.

Perhaps the respawn time could get steadily longer as gang members are killed? A gang that's not doing so well won't be as quick to replace their members, after all, but it would still require more than the effort of a lone oldbie to get them to that level.

If someone is getting around the earnings cap that what we like to call CHEATING so I'm not really sure why this isn't something you are xhelping about when you see since the player 'getting around' something coded is by definition, cheating. So please xhelp with each person you have seen 'get around' the cap and also how they are doing it so we can punish those players and fix the issue.

I think I read that a different way, Slither, as in they are established enough to make quite a bit of extra money off other players, not automated earning systems.

I think you were the one that read it wrong.

"Earning cap? PC's have found a way around that for a long time now. One PC can resupply a whole gang and make tons of money as long as he knows how."

That sounds like cheating to me.

The only way I can see around it, in this context, is hiring other players to find out what the gangers want and paying them some money to find out what they need, supply that player with the item, then collect the profits...

Which sounds like gray area to me, but I'm pretty new.

Yeah what Panda said.

Sorry for the double post (again) but i didn't know how to edit my last one. What panda says is what i meant. I just didn't clarify because i didn't know if it would cross ooc/ic barriers. I wasn't in anyway accussing anyone of cheating or whatnot. If i thought someone was cheating i would xhelp in a matter of seconds.

@Slither: You missread my first comment but i think that's mostly my fault as english is not my native language.

Crime's supposed to pay - isn't that a major theme?

There's only one reason a ganger needs re-kitting:

Theft, almost always accompanied by murder.

Used to be, this income source would have been a solo mission and generate absolutely no RP directly.

Today, since the cap, PC's organize and make chy for themselves and for each other. I've roleplayed with at least five characters I definitely would not have, at the time and possibly not ever, because of the conflict generated by the gangers' reluctance to repeatedly deal with the same PC more than about once a week, depending on the items.

Let's clarify whether what Panda described above is cheating or not. My opinion is that it absolutely drives the kind of "players roleplaying and making money off each other" goal which Johnny described when announcing the cap.

@Vetra

I didn't say it is bad or anything. Quite the opposite. I just stated that using this method a gang can resupply 6-7 members very easy and very quick so they are able to join the fray again at lightning fast speed. Thus it's good to have a longer respawn time.

@Steven, I know that's what you're saying.

But now we've got an admin on record as saying "this sounds like cheating and people are likely to be punished for it if it is".

So is it? Slither? Now that the details are clear? If this isn't the way we're "supposed" to play, I'll take my licks.

On topic (leaving the income tangent behind):

Can I ask, is there anything unbalanced or negative about the way NPCs respawn now?

Other than "suspension of disbelief"?

I witnessed some, not all but some, of the recent plot we're talking about. It didn't seem to me like anything about it went bad due to gangers swarming. I agree with Mew, that they're *supposed* to swarm practically nonstop. I don't object to the ones stepping up as their homeys fall having the same names or faces.

I'll also point out, without going too IC, that the reason some of these dead people got back into the fight didn't always involve coming down from GeneTek, so, changing the clone mechanic wouldn't even have had the effect we're talking about here in many cases.

I started this post intending for it to be about NPC respawn times. Because some NPC's spawn very close to where they died and are back quite quickly.

For example. One NPC died twice in the gang war and his corpses were side by side.

So its partially about believability, partly about consequences. If there's a gang war, or other sort of violence that kills a lot of gang members/Terra agents/whatever I think their street presence should be reduced.

So. If you fuck up, and cause your gang to get murdered, they wouldn't be back in almost full strength 20 minutes later. They don't have to buy clones, they can't contract DCD, they don't have to save up to reequip gear.

This wouldn't weaken them. It just creates consequences. And. It could allow gangs to more effectively exert dominance.

You know, it is quite possible that since these are gangs that the names they use are actually monikers; so if one version of a ganger dies, a new one steps up and takes the mantle of the old one.

Ganger X dies, five minutes later Ganger is back with different equipment/none at all. Sure, the two may look similar, but can you really tell? You were too focused on surviving your encounter to notice that the first ganger had different colored eyes.

Anyway, that's how I justify it to myself. Also, it makes sense considering how many people in the mix have to turn to crime that they are easily replaced.

Sorry I totally disagree with this. NPC's are exactly like us PC's so why should they have a respawn timer longer than ours? Furthermore you are forgetting ambience. Sure only a few NPC's actually represent a gang by name but there are usually a lot of gang members involved.

Whilst I'm not really in a knowledgeable position to comment on most of the things listed here as I don't play anywhere near often enough due to outside issues making it unfortunately impossible for me to do so I will make specific comment with regards to the multiple comments about 'oldbies' wiping out the gangs without taking much more than a strength.

Speaking as someone who's been playing this game for 10+ years on and off with the same character, the fatigue system has largely dampened down a heavily UEd characters ability to do this, in addition, there are numerous serious IC consequences (coded and otherwise which I won't go into) if you simply start laying the smack down on any singular group en-masse. More to the point however, it simply doesn't really add anything to RP individually or as a whole for an oldbie to do this and except in very specific circumstances makes no RP sense either way.

I really like this idea, or a variant of it. The respawn timer would be a great way to embody the time it takes to get rolling after death. Anyone who has died should know that there is a lengthy process of RP text and what not associated with embodying your clone. Throw in possible clone sickness, simply the time it can take to get back to your hood, or whatever, and I see how a respawn timer has a great place in our system.

Now, I also understand the idea that these members represent more than just themselves in the gang or organization. However, We are supposed to treat these NPC's as other players, but this mechanic goes directly against this type of RP. If I slay Randy, and Randy pops back up in 5 minutes, saying the same things Randy always says, I find it hard to imagine him as someone else. And again, we are told time and again since chargen that we should imagine them as players just like us. So why would they not take the same amount of time, generally speaking, to work through the process of cloning. Now I am wondering how hard it would be, to create some more NPC's that randomly pop out in place of someone who has recently died. I do not think we would need a TON of them, and as usual, you could lean on the current player base to help with descriptions.

I really like this idea, or a variant of it. The respawn timer would be a great way to embody the time it takes to get rolling after death. Anyone who has died should know that there is a lengthy process of RP text and what not associated with embodying your clone. Throw in possible clone sickness, simply the time it can take to get back to your hood, or whatever, and I see how a respawn timer has a great place in our system.

Now, I also understand the idea that these members represent more than just themselves in the gang or organization. However, We are supposed to treat these NPC's as other players, but this mechanic goes directly against this type of RP. If I slay Randy, and Randy pops back up in 5 minutes, saying the same things Randy always says, I find it hard to imagine him as someone else. And again, we are told time and again since chargen that we should imagine them as players just like us. So why would they not take the same amount of time, generally speaking, to work through the process of cloning. Now I am wondering how hard it would be, to create some more NPC's that randomly pop out in place of someone who has recently died. I do not think we would need a TON of them, and as usual, you could lean on the current player base to help with descriptions.

I forget the precise term for them but for some reason I am recalling memento npcs... I hope that's not terribly off the mark. They're generated under certain circumstances, patrol for a short while (I think), and disappear back into the void from whence they came.Is that not in the game anymore?

Also, if you're engaging an NPC and kill them, and they respawn they're probably going to act the way they always acted unless they're puppeted, which would most likely been the way they acted before they cloned. Is there really an issue with them doing so?

I kind of remember a change being put into place over a year or two ago that stopped the NPCs from respawning with their full set of equipment so when they die they'll be looking to be restocked from players, that should also provide some semblance of "the process of getting things rolling again" and make it easier to view the NPC as an actual living breathing entity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while.