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WJF Enforcer II
How it might work.

So, I figured I'd put this in Anything Really because it's not an idea, or even a game mechanics discussion. I'm trying to start a fluff discussion. Or as mmorpg fans might like to say, a "lore" discussion.

Since my character has been a Judge (I think I can say that safely without breaking any rules by now), the WJF Enforcer II has intrigued me and confused me.

What does it look like? How the fuck does it work? Many will say "meh, it's a game". Some might even say

But this discussion isn't for those people. They're for people who ask the question:

If any admin have input, it would be greatly appreciated as well. After all, you guys decide what goes.

But before we can get into that, we have to figure out what it fires. And how it fits 30 of them into a single magazine.

The pistol mode of the WJF Enforcer fires 13mm rounds. This is approx. equivalent to .50 cal. There are quite a few .50cals. The most known handgun .50 round is the AE, it actually clocks in closer to 12.7mm but caliber names are often misleading as to exact measurements.

The Desert Eagle .50AE mag is pretty fucking huge and it only holds 7 rounds - but it's also a single-stack. If it were double-stacked, the weapon would require even bigger mitts to hold properly.

This is what cartridges around this calibre look like:

I can't see a mag double-stacking these fitting in the grip, let alone such a mag *and* a second one loading 7mm rifle rounds.

The weapon's description reads "The twinned ammo magazines bulk out the rear of the weapon". Now, an idea occurred to me while I was thinking about this, along with the size of the mags. The weapon could have some kind of interesting feeding mechanism that rotates rounds into place and then feeds them into the chamber built into the grip while the two mags stick out the rear of the grip and serve as a sort of stock.

Could have a similar profile to the C96:

Or the fucking hideous VP70:

Except in these two weapons, the stock isn't a pair of mags but rather the holster. But really, a 13mm mag that widens a bit at the base and has some rubber padding would still be more comfortable than the stock on a Skorpion:

This would solve both the fuckhuge grip problem and the mag length problem. All that would be left is to devise a feeding mechanism built into the grip that rotates and feeds that single round. Something like the spiral feed ramp in the FN P90?

This image is linked because it is fuckhuge:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/FNP90MAG01.JPG

I would see the rounds being vertical in this case rather than horizontal, so the disc can rotate inside the grip.

Any one else have thoughts on this?

(Edited by Murphy at 4:35 am on Sep. 26, 2011)

Of course, all this is assuming modern-day(ish) propellant technology and traditional rounds with brass casings.

Assuming impressive advances in propellant technology, each 13mm round could in fact be just the "lead" with a disc of propellant attached to its back. It could feed into the chamber, and instead of striking a primer on the rear of the round, the weapon could electrically detonate the extremely high-pressure propellant (the Enforcer does use a battery, after all) and send the bullet on its merry way. In this case, the cartridges themselves would be extremely short while maintaining the size of the bullet. The mag wouldn't need to be double-stacked - the rounds would travel up the magazine in a sort of zig-zag pattern all the way up and feed into the chamber.

The magazine would be a *bit* long, but I estimate that with extremely efficient propellant discs and no need for a primer or casing you might be able to fit three rounds where a single .50AE would fit today. That means, if the mag were the exact same size as a Desert Eagle magazine, it would hold 21 rounds. Add another "row" and a bit and you have a 30rd mag. I suppose this is the explanation that would take into account advances in the next seventy years or so.

(Edited by Murphy at 5:12 am on Sep. 26, 2011)

I think I've figured out a way to make the 7mm rifle round work. Kind of.

Obviously it can't fit in the grip if the 13mm magazine is there because the grip would be near impossible to hold.. Plus it would give rise to weird feeding issues - would the chambers and barrels be side by side? The weapon would be really wide and difficult to aim, then.

Now, a standard box magazine has the rounds in there and pushed upwards by a spring as each round is fired - the bolt cycles and the next round feeds.

What if, instead, the rounds sat inside the magazine and were connected by rubber loops, which the . I'm seen machinegun belts set up this way (specifically on a browning M2 firing.50BMG but I'm sure other MGs can be fed this way), where instead of an actual belt these loops are used and spit out the side. This would allow the rifle mag to be side-feeding the rifle portion while the mag remains vertical and mounted on the side. With the 7mm round it should be relatively thin, especially if the rounds are caseless. Then the two barrels would me in an over-under configuration with separate chambers fed from separate mags. The Enforcer would pull the rounds in itself as the rifle bolt cycles. I guess it would kind of technically be considered a clip, though.

To eliminate the need to open up the enforcer and place the first round, there could be an extra rubber tab leading the first round, which when loading a fresh 7mm you would feed into the breech and manually cycle the rifle bolt. It would pull the first round in and spit out the feeding tab.

But maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe it would be a regular mag you slot between the trigger guard and the  underslung grenade launcher. Make it double-stacked and it would be about the size and width of an M1 Garand clip/mag thingie. The Garand feeds so weird, I'm not sure if it should be called a clip or magazine...

Regardless, at that size it wouldn't be very hard to find room for it. It's just that the Enforcer would be a long-ass weapon, for a handgun. Like a tricked out, extra tall AMT Hardballer longslide.

The grenade launcher would be easy, though. It's not like it needs a long barrel since a grenade doesn't need to hit an exact target. And it doesn't need to be that large,  if it uses a similar electrically-detonated propellant as my theoretical rounds above would. Besides, they already make grenades that fit in a shotgun  shell:


So, an impressive weapon and definitely possible within the next few decades, I think.

But I wouldn't want to field strip one. D:

This got me curious. From what I understood, this is what I pictured. http://i.imgur.com/BAhiN.png

A 13mm clip/mag, in the grip. And then a single-shot grenade launcher fixed on the bottom, with a manual load. And then a 7mm mag -somewhere-, with a logical loading operation. I hope i'm not missing something.

In my opinion the enforcer is a portable, versatile, bulky handgun.

I think there will be an electronic hammer or spring that just pushes the 7mm back, or i've heard of guns using gaseous pressure to do -important stuff- inside a gun-pretty clueless. But Maybe that's a field that had the possibility to expand over the years.

overall though I want the weapon of the law to look something like that

The purpose of the hammer in a semi-auto handgun is to action the firing pin which hits the primer and ignites the propellant, sending the round down the barrel and hopefully into the target. (Some other types of firearms have the firing pin integrated into the hammer, like many revolvers)

If the propellant is ignited electrically then there's no need for a hammer - less moving parts is a good thing, weapon is typically more reliable. With the propellant ignited directly, there's also no need for a primer and reducing the size of the cartridges by eliminating as much extraneous stuff as possible is the name of the game if  want to fit 30 rounds in one and you don't want to end up with an assault rifle-sized magazine.

I really started this thread for theorizing on how the thing might work rather than how it looks. Based on the description and combat messages it's fairly obvious that it's at least partially based of the 1994 Judge Dredd movie Lawgiver.

As I said previously, the grenade launcher really isn't any sort of problem. To be usable, it would need to be underslung anyway and minigrenades can fit in shotgun shells.

The real problem is simply one of mechanical design and physics - having two vastly different rounds firing out of a single weapon, and loading all these rounds in a way that doesn't make the weapon impossible to use.

Well I'd like to figure out how it works.. while looking like that. but Less movement is better.. So the mags need to be close to each other. What kind of aiming is the enforcer used for? Cause I thought of the two magazines sticking out the top. I thought: ridiculous. but instead of going straight up, make the clips sorta stick out the side and back, not alot, and rise a bit. so the back of the gun looks like a box. As the desc does say 'bulging out the back.' And if you could still use the grip for the 13mm, it would be even smaller.. loading from the top and bottom. Is there a small screen/computer on the enforcer, the wider back end would give room for it. Just talking, I don't know alot about the mechanics, possibly reason enough to leave, idk. And to clarify, the 30 rounds are for each ammo size, so 60 total.

clip and magazines, to me, are about as relevant as this

The mags don't need to be near each other - the chamber and barrel would need to be different for each caliber. Unless they're magical and change size.

Also the rifle mag doesn't hold 30rds.

Also, a clip is a loading aid to fill an internal magazine, while a magazine actively feeds a weapon.

M1 Garand is the exception to the rule.

I think it's time to call on our friend Ivan Chesnokov to explain how various firearm actions work, today:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wgzEqf5GuQI/TMb_RcCeorI/AAAAAAAAAdM/ve2iq7EyYMk/s1600/Ivan+Explanes.png

URL posted because image width would fuck with forum formatting.


I've been thinking about the chamber and barrel changing size and shape. I wonder if a sufficiently advanced type of piezo-electric effect would make this possible while still maintaining the barrel and chamber integrity - after all, you want to push a 13mm round out with respectable muzzle energy you're gonna need some serious propellant and that means high pressure....

Hrm.

More of this crap.

Now I've been thinking about how the Enforcer cycles in each of its firing modes. Grenade is a no-brainer, but what about the pistol and rifle modes?

Most automatic handguns use John Browning-style short recoil, this is why the slide moves back and forth. But would it make sense, functionality and maintenance-wise, to have different mechanisms for the pistol and rifle modes? I don't think so.

I think it would make most sense to have both firing modes be gas-operated. But where do you put two pistons? You don't. One piston for both bolts.

When the weapon switches between firing modes, here's what could happen - the bolt mechanically disengages from one bolt/chamber, and engages to the other. Similarly, one gas port seals and the other unseals. And of course, the active "propellant igniter" switches. I'm still keen on Enforcer rounds using electrically-ignited propellant discs on caseless rounds, as it eliminates the ejection port problem and the oversized magazine problem.

Basically it's a short-stroke system that can alternate between bolts.

(Edited by Murphy at 3:37 pm on Oct. 31, 2011)

I always thought of them as like FN Herstal's P90 but with twin horizontal-feed mags.

(That brown segmented strip along the top of the receiver is actually the clip. It stores the rounds horizontally and rotates them 90� as it feeds them.

Two of these on each side would make a seriously high-capacity weapon, as each mag holds 50 rounds (5.7mm). For SD purposes we could say they hold half as many rounds that are twice as large.

Having personally fired one of these, and owning a handgun-model firing the same ammo, I would have to say these are ideal for 'futuristic' weaponry. Extremely accurate, extremely low recoil.

Magazine :P
It holds 50rds because it's firing 5.7mm, whereas the Enforcer is firing 13mm.
And I already discussed the P90s spiral feed ramp above as a possible solution.

Speaking of pistols firing 5.7mm, though, we must quote Ivan Chesnokov:


MAIN POINT OF SELLING BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS EXTREME PRICE OF WEAPON AND CARTRIDGE.

BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON OF MAN WHO WEARS EXPENSIVE ITALIAN FASCIST SUIT OF HAND SEWING, DRIVE HUGE EXPENSIVE NAZI MERCEDES OF A.M.G. SHOP, SAIL ON MASSIVE YACHT TO GREEK ISLANDS. I THINK YOU GET PICTURE. BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON THAT SAYS IS NO SUCH THING AS CONCERN OF MONEY.

FOR MAN WITHOUT EXPENSIVE SUIT, BIG BLACK MERCEDES, AND MASSIVE YACHT, BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS FOR PRETENDING OF BE RICH LIKE BLACK GANGSTER OF AMERICAN CITY WITH GOLD CHAINS OF LOW QUALITY AND JEWELS OF COLORED GLASS. WHEN YOU EXPLAIN USE OF BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS ONLY FOR SHOOT MAN WITH BULLET VEST WITH CARTRIDGE ILLEGAL TO CIVILIAN, THIS MAN HAS NUCLEAR RAGE. WHOLE IDENTITY OF THIS MAN IS SPENT IN PRETEND PISTOL SHOWS HE IS RICH. IS VERY AMUSE.

FOR REST OF WORLD THERE IS 9 MILLIMETERS OF LUGER WHICH IS SAME WOUND FOR COST LESS.

Magazine :P

I couldn't tell very well from that shot, but I thought the segmented block along the side was the rail the ammo rides on as you load/discharge the mag (ie, the clip).

BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON THAT SAYS IS NO SUCH THING AS CONCERN OF MONEY.

I paid $1200 for the gun, shipping, and 4 extra mags. Not exactly my most-expensive option for a pistol. I also like the integrated kick-reducing venting on the barrel. One of the steadiest guns I've ever used.

A clip is used to feed a magazine or revolving cylinder, while a magazine or a belt is used to load cartridges into the chamber of a firearm.

The P90's magazine does not feed into an internal magazine, it feeds into the chamber.

That said, 1200$ is still expensive for a handgun. Like the USP. I love the USP, but it's still expensive.

But the real cost is the ammunition, as compared to everyday 9mm

Ivan Chesnokov again:


PISTOL OF TOKAREV IS ORIGINAL HAND WEAPON OF PIERCING ARMOR VEST. SURE, IS CHEAP TO MAKE AND CHEAP TO BUY BUT IS REVERENT CONTENDER TO SUPER EXPENSE OF BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL.

ALSO HAS COOL SOVIET STAR ON GRIPPING PANEL. WITH THIS DESIGN YOU ARE LOOK LIKE STAR OF COLD WAR, NO?


(Edited by Murphy at 3:23 pm on Dec. 7, 2011)

Well this Ivan guy sounds like a hilarious soviet character. I agree, there are cheaper options, but I like the feel of the Five-Seven, and it's got a pretty nice punch on the receiving end. The way I see it, the less I have to fire my weapon, the better of a day I'm having.

Back to the SD aspect though: wouldn't the judges have the biggest and best anyway?

Judges do have the biggest and best. The original question is - how the fuck does it work?

However the Enforcer works, the HK G11 would be it's great grandaddy due to its using caseless ammo:


and the X29 OICW would be it's great grandma due to it firing semiautomatic airburst and rifle rounds in an over/under configuration:

will still not looking as ridiculous as this:

and fitting into a standard tactical thigh holster, Allandra Johanson or no.

Not sure how the grenade launcher works on it TBH. It may require a new shell be loaded every time, and there's no telling if it's airburst or not.

I always pictured it as taking a single shot and loading something similar to the FRAG-12 in order for the launcher to fit where a LAM would go.

Screw it. Just give me the gun from 'I Come In Peace.'

(Edited by Grim at 5:50 am on Dec. 14, 2011)

Had a thought.

Maybe it's a gauss weapon and uses linear accelerators. Solves pretty much all the problems with the weapon, except for an explanation as to why the barrels are vented (compensated).

First I have to say I am new to the forums and here goes:


So I have a few ideas about how this weapon could work. First and foremost I think the clip would be top feeding and rear oriented like a calico as seen here http://majorballistics.com/wp-content/uploads/calico_m950.jpg

With the helical clip being used you then employ ammunition like that used in the metal storm system, a chemical propellant that is in a cavity in the rear of the bullet that is fired electrically instead of being struck by a hammer/firing pin.

Since the bullets are smaller due to not having a case you would have what I would think to call a "compound helical feed clip" in that your clip has two channels in it, one in the center and another wrapped around the outside with the 7mm in the middle feed system and the 13mm in the outer.

You then have a "feed select" switch on the side of the pistol that determines which of the two bullets feed through into the chamber and then the trigger has a small magneto inside of it that generates the voltage/amperage needed to detonate the propellant.

Only issue now is the difference in barrel size required for the difference bullets. Perhaps some sort of telescoping or self adjusting mesh with a battery. If you did something along those lines you could remove the magneto in the trigger and just have it be what completes the circuit and instead put a battery inside the clip that controls firing/barrel caliber change.

Edit: Thought of one thing as well, if the weapon is a Gauss style firing mechanism is the power source. Mass drivers do take quite a bit of power and I don't think you 'D' cells have quite the oomph needed.

Chemical propellant is still the most elegant solution.

(Edited by Uno at 4:26 pm on July 2, 2012)

The problem here is that you're assuming in 2097 that we have the same batteries we have today. In fact, we *do* have a pure gaussian weapon in game and it operates off Battox powercells, and the description of th mags themselves indcate there being attached powercells to each - a hybrid solution at the least is deffo not out of the question for larger rounds.

The idea of a compound helical magazine is interesting, though we run into a couple problems - smaller round or not, it would be hella awkward.

The pistol and rifle rounds are different calibers. Rifle calibers are typically longer, pistol rounds are shorter. The pistol rounds (13mm or ~.50) are also wider than the 7mm (~.270) and the magazines have vastly different capacities.

Not to mention, they are separate magazines in game - and I have difficulty seeing two magazines of different dimensions feeding two vastly different rounds into the same chamber, mighty morphin' power barrel or not

Even if the barrel could be set to accept both rounds as to fire them, it could not do so with any measure of accuracy. Because the grooves in the barrel have to resist the travel of the round in order to force it to spin during the short time it is within the barrel.

Just a .45 acp is wider around than your typical .30 cal rifle round.

However with future tech and electricity, the rifle could be explained via a shaving gauss system. A metal block is loaded instead of a standard magazine, the cycling of the system could shave off a flechette style round and expel it out of the barrel. Rifling of the barrel would be useless and counter productive to this method of propulsion. With the .50 ae pistol round being the larger in diameter of the two, you could still toss these projectiles down a single barrel.

The shaving system would probably be too troublesome, and I did forget that the weapon uses two clips instead of one.

What if you kept the top mounted clip but got rid of the helical style and basically made it the height dimensions of the rifle round with the width dimensions of the two bullets put side by side + the composite material of the clip. you then square it out and add your battery bank(s) behind the 7mm bullets and add a flip down to the end of the mag/battery for use as a SMG style butstock.

Then you just say screw the barrel, make it into a coil and then you don't have to worry about either caliber.

Then you just add a capacitor inside of the gun so the battery charges the cap to increase your ROF to faster than once every ten seconds or so.