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Combat Decking

I think, while Grid 4 has so far been a HUGE improvement over Grid 3, deckers are still fairly limited in what they're able to do. I think it would be pretty cool if there were a way for deckers to harm people (be it anyone, or strictly other deckers) using their software.

For example, a decker could run a program to return a list of SIC IDs/chrome serials within a certain range (maybe just the same room?), perhaps save those as devices, and use other software to damage that chrome or harm its owner. Maybe, for the sake of balance, there's a damage drop-off depending on the range from the decker at the time of execution. This could also open up avenues for chrome ICE. If you want it to just be limited to deckers, maybe a cracked gridterm can be vulnerable to delivering shocks either through the casing or a linked GridSight port.

These are just ideas I've had, I think I'd be pretty open to other forms of getting deckers more involved in biz. At the moment, while a huge improvement, deckers' utility is still pretty limited.

While yes grid 4.0 does not allow you to hurt people directly, as in cause damage, i have to extremely disagree that it's limited, the amount of ways in which a decker, especially working together with someone, can assist in harming someone is very high as they can do things previously just flat out not available at all, or some behind super expensive equipment.
So far all I've really seen is being able to temporarily disable cameras or pull really low-level paydata from very hard to reach equipment, outside of the fun novelty shit (which is quite fun).
I won't bring IC details into OOC place, but there is way more
Besides what's explicitly mentioned in the Grid 4 announcement thread (and maybe 1 or 2 other things), I haven't been able to find anything at all. I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
If I understand the grid correctly, in theory, it would make sense for deckers to be able send system shocks to a SIC, or maybe exploit progias into overheating and exploding. Maybe Deckers can jack into the weather grid and target an outside room for lightning strikes?
I'm personally not a fan of anything that involves direct PvP in remote format, so it'd be a no from me. If you can hurt someone from rooms away while being untouchable in the safety of your pad or something, that's just unbalanced.

Deckers already have a lot of great support options as it stands when it comes to PvP.

Double post, but that being said decker versus decker combat would be cool to see, even if that included physical damage. But not against non-deckers.
If it is decker-on-decker only, I feel there should be more ways to discover other deckers' terminals, as at the moment the only ways of doing that are pretty unfeasible (physically scanning their terminal or a successful daemon backtrace, neither of which are very likely at all)
Something that never felt right to me when I started playing here was how underwhelming deckers were. It was not really cyberpunk without them. Now that they have the resources and capability, I don't see a problem with them being able to hurt someone from rooms away. Let's not pretend that it will be a silver digital bullet that causes great bodily harm to the fully armored super solo, wrecking a 200k kit with a street term. In MUD fashion, it would likely cause annoyance level damage and be gated off. Physics combat will always be the go to if you really want to end someone and giving deckers the ability to knock 6-7 health off of you isn't going to change that.
Problem is that there is already a ton of way to be annoying without taking any realistic risks, and honestly I do not see how adding even more to that arsenal will be a net positive for the conflict as a whole?
Yeah, plus like I mentioned in my original post, if it does do real damage, it can have a range falloff. A steep one. Want to really fry someone's shit? You're gonna need to be in the room with them.

Plus, I don't see anybody complaining about getting fucked up from rooms away when it comes to snipers.

Snipers have angles and restrictions, they don't shoot through walls.
Oh snipers absolutely get complained about, luckily enough it's pretty well gated + easy to catch up by anyone - you do not need a specific IC skillset to get back at a sniper.

This would be almost entirely a one sided affair.

Not really. At the moment deckers are probably the easiest people to kill in the entire game. I just think it'd be nice if they could use their skills for something other than low-tier paydata people generally don't seem to care about.
Strong opinion maybe, But I think Decking should be limited to non physical stuff. The grid isn't the Matrix. It's limited in functionality.
Except given that it's remote and there is no way to follow a gunshot, how are you getting back at that decker?

And really, deckers have such insane array of tools available now (and as I uderstand even more is coming), and are in such demand… If someone doesn't care about, they are either intentionally leaving a vulnerability or do not know better, but decker's are crazy capable now. Though doing so requires doing some risky things to set it up and maybe some creativity and IC knowledge.

Yeah, well, from what I've actually seen, nobody really gives a shit. And, again, the only real capabilities I've seen have been fucking with security cameras or pulling kind of obvious paydata from hardware that is very hard to get physical access to
What risks do deckers not take?

And of course this isn't the matrix. If it were deckers could kill you from rooms away.

That's a good point, too, I've seen deckers getting chain-vatted for "not taking risks", so I don't really understand that argument at all.
I don't have a better answer for you than to ask around icly about all the cool things some deckers have already figured out.
Those "cool things" are largely just novelties that have no real marketable application. While they are cool, and I do appreciate them, you can't make a living off parlor tricks.
I understand those who wish to protect the idea of game balance, but I don't think what Baguette is asking for would not be balanced or reasonable. If deckers lack the true teeth to threaten people, then they are just background characters in a theme that they should be potentially main movers and shakers. Leaning on "trust me bro there's more" really fails to counter the perception and the excitement players like baguette probably felt when 4.0 was released and justified their time and efforts spent here. Remote also does not equal unbalanced. I really don't have anything of more value to add to the conversation as I do not play a decker and I am NOT posting from experience, but more as a lifelong cyberpunk enthusiast, and would rather sit back and hear from some actual deckers on the topic.
While it's true that decking could see more juice and better support combat, it's never going to be a fair match vs. an actual combat character, which is why decker characters shouldn't neglect subterfuge, stealth, disguises, etc to survive.

Some things they could do (perhaps some of this is already supported):

- Disable SIC in a location, can't call for backup.

- Disable security checkpoints, can't use certain places as safe havens.

- Disable lights, it's hard to fight in the dark.

- Temporarily disable chrome. This would need some kind of contrast to already existing one-use items to disable chrome.

- Spoof surveillance feeds, so cameras show old information or can be used as decoys.

- Temporarily disable radio and Progia feeds.

- Temporarily forge or scramble SIC IDs.

- Temporarily cut off oxygen in certain rooms.

- Trigger false fire alarms, again causing decoys, attention, corpsec pulls, etc.

All of those things ALONE won't put a solo in a vat, but with coordinated effort (and through the power of RP) can really make or break a situation.

A few of those are already in the game, but the rest would also be nice to have, and they seem like stuff that it's reasonable to assume are already being worked on.
quick hacks? Honestly a decker being able to target someone with chrome would be really cool. Not sure about balance though.
Yes, Quickhacks were essentially the idea of what I was going for. Maybe less quick. Shit, maybe even just a regular short-range weapon that uses decking skills and has flavor text about tapping away at a terminal rather than slicing with a blade.
Cybertechs can already fuck with chrome in some ways but IMO a decker just randomly being able to disable all your nanos and chrome from rooms away from within a locked pad makes no sense in terms of game balancing. Maybe if they scanned you, the character object, and that scan had a time limit before it has to expire.
Adding Intelligence based combat role would actually be really cool. Great as backup and support.
I do agree with you in part on that one, Cowbell.

If the nanos and cyberware have no correspondence with the grid, then they should be out of the realm of possibilities. However we keep spinning our wheels on the "from rooms away" argument which sounds more like a fear of change based argument than a theme or application based argument when we all know balance, restrictions, and gate keeping would be applied if implemented.

We need more illegal things! I'd love if you need a physical thing to accomplish something like this. Maybe some craftable. Some imported or out in a place that relies on physical combatants to get to. All illegal. Also, if you can pinpoint someone from rooms away, it should leave a trace that Gridworks/grid sec can follow? And then maybe there are things someone could by that offers them layers of protection from this that deckers then have to chip through. Some of it should be long and tedious sometimes. Just spitballing.

I do think the balancing could be difficult and sounds like a mountanous project for several people to take one but it could add so much and encourage rp between archetypes that are very different.

i just wish deckers were less useless tbh. even if they can gather more data and turn off SIC in small areas now it's not like anyone else realistically gives a shit in favor of the time-tested method of "hit that mixer until his shit is your shit"
I wish deckers had a way to defend themselves. Like someone tries to start shit? Got a program prepped to stun their SIC chip and run off.

Honestly, for all the complaining about balance, do you realize that deckers put UE in three different skills and coming out with advantages that won't save them from most things? It's a huge UE dump. Grid 4 is awesome, but deckers are still the runts in the game despite that massive investment. While for instance, with just short blade and dodge I can make it as a combatant in most situations.

Deckers aren't meant to be direct combat characters. If you want to defend yourself in a direct confrontation, then invest in combat skills.
There are CP universes where they are, what they are here is decided by staff and lore. I'm just stating my opinion. Especially now that you can walk around with a nearly forty kay deck and you have to go out to scan things. There's still a balance 'cuz you need to compile programs which can take hours or even days. And you need to be skilled enough. Why not have an int based combat type? If only mildly combative.
Adding to that, there's very little reason for people to worry about a decker still. I can't keep people at bay 'cuz they think I might hack something important to them. They'd just solo me.
Int based combat exists though, it usually consists of hiring a solo.

You can say that sure, blade and dodge gets you far in a scrap, bur earns you almost no chy unless you want to take some pretty high risks. Deck lets you earn chy much more safely.

still very funny to me that the archetype that is absolutely the hardest to make any kind of money as has such expensive equipment, which will of course be snatched from you at the earliest opportunity because the Puny Decker cannot withstand the Mighty strength-dump combat character that will beat them into a pulp for the expensive new thing without a second thought
hire a solo? with what money?
Debatable on how much it earns you, and the risk is often greater if I decide to scan things on my own and bring my deck out in the open. There's a few things that deckers can do that are very useful, but generally they can't get by on their own. Being a decker in the Mix has never been so risky. Being a corpside decker's gotten very appealing though, due to the lack of protection downstairs.
I don't know what to tell you, since grid 4 I see tons of decker's make absolute killing with it, chy and contacts wise. It's honestly way better than I think any other int based archetype right now, possibly even matching up to the artists, although I doubt that will be the case for a long time.

But this topic is now entirely off topic, so I'll just bow out.

i think the people that are playing deckers would have a better idea of what playing a decker is like as opposed to someone who has "seen" deckers, no offense
Decker v. Decker Grid-based combat would be cool; kind of like an extension of what daemons can get you. Acquire target's Deck ID, SIC ID, and maybe steal some their cached data.

Right now Deckers are a great support role when combined with a Bruiser friend who can handle the meatspace problems.

Hire a combat character to do your scans for you in the Mix. This is a game in which a role can't excel at everything and do everything. Deckers get cool toys on the Grid, but they struggle in meatspace, so they need to rely on other PCs who can do it for them. Much like how combat characters can't do what decker programs can.
this does not really do anything about the issue of just chain vatting a decker when their buddies are offline until they are completely unable to operate in any capacity
Deckers are -somewhat- thriving right now because Grid 4 is fresh and new. That won't be the case forever. Everyone just wants to know what they can do.
i dunno if id even say theyre "thriving" right now, they just went from "basicallty extinct" to "severely endangered"
I think that argument Baguette goes beyond deckers and instead becomes a complaint about being PvP'd as a non-combat character, which is not unique to deckers.
being PvPd as a non-combat character that has basically no way of making besides making combat characters want to pulp you for pocket change yes
making money*
If you're a decker you should be trying to form a symbtiotic relationship with a combat character, or group of combat characters. Go to a gang and offer your services so you're able to more freely operate on their turf, or do the same with a solo who'll want you to create programs for them or teach them how to use their own grid terminal. A huge draw of Grid 4.0 is that a solo can use programs on jobs, creating a demand for deckers to always be working for them.

If you play your cards right you'll be protected and have a constant stream of income from your more dangerous clients.

I'd like to see deckers be able to do even more though: shut down vehicles you've scanned; or temporarily short out someone else's gridterm because they're intruding on a network you're protecting, potentially causing harm to whoever is using it at the time, etc.

Using decking skills for direct combat is a step too far but deckers should be like tech mages able to influence the world to create conditions that could make or break an operation. They should be working closely with the people who do violent things to make it harder for other people who do violent things.

at the moment those would-be symbiotic relationships are kind of held up by the combat characters always wanting shit that just isnt possible with grid 4 and being underwhelmed when you tell them what you can actually do with it
plus, when a combat character DOES approach a decker for services, more often than not its just as a one-and-done thing and then it's "cool see you later" and you are once again left to fend for yourself. especially if youre just loading software up on their terminal for them to run themselves