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Neutral Location for Cloning

I searched this topic to make sure I wasn't reposting an old idea and I found some discussion about DCD that might increase risk-aversion and how appears to be a negative ratio of victims versus villains, but this post was from 2019 and I don't think that things often stay the same in games like these that long but it got me thinking a bit about recent events and how they've been making me think about risk.

I have very limited experience on this stuff and I can only rely on the information I learn through roleplay like anyone else but it's my understanding that DCD treatment is only available through Viriisoma, and to me this posed an interesting problem when thinking about how people take risk and whether or not people will get involved in something.

If giant corporations have immunity to do what they will on their territories, putting DCD treatment, something that I have some experience with, and how vicious DCD is portrayed in the game I thought that perhaps the location of the DCD treatment is too large of a discouraging factor to engage Viriisoma in the us versus them theme of the game.

I don't know of any other corporations that have monopolies on services so critical as DCD treatment, you don't go to Genetek when you update your clone or get a new one, and Genetek doesn't seem to hire people so there's little risk of upsetting them and having cloning revoked.

I think it might be beneficial to everyone, including Viriisoma employees if DCD could potentially be moved to another location on Gold, or maybe Sense/Net could offer updating and treatments. I think this might lower risk aversion and encourage more conflict interactions with those employees.

If I were playing a corporate security character I think I would be way more interested in having more people wanting to engage me in conflict and RP by lowering possible perceived risk to the overall survival not the immediate survival of my character by potentially losing access to DCD treatments.

Also I considered that Viriisoma employees might actually do work associated with DCD treatments and I wouldn't want to take away any job functions from people or their RP, but I don't think it's anything more than an automated process like updating so I don't think that is a consideration.

I think changing the location would be a win win for the game, I haven't been able to find any downsides but my perspective and experiences are not as expansive as most people around and would really like some feedback.

I meant to topic this as Neutral Location for DCD. I am sorry.
I'll be straight up, VS has little to offer over other corps mechanics speaking besides being able to use it's products like DCD clinics, biomods as leverage in high grade conflict. If you take those away, it will be even barren and struggle to attract players.

DCD treatment itself does not generate work, but it is leverage for VS, as you do not want to be wanted by VS and get it.

ViriiSoma will still allow you to treat your DCD even if they hate your guts. If a player in VS tries to block you staff has always told them to knock it off so don't let that be a roadblock in your RP. In the past even the Hall has taken people to be treated for DCD if they've captured someone who's cloned out with it.
Yeah, I don't see us moving this any time soon™.
Necronex666, I did not know that! That is reassuring, but if that is the case, wouldn't it be trivial to simply move it a neutral location? If Staff ensure VS players won't stop you from going, what leverage is there to utilize for VS?

And is more leverage even needed behind the fortifications of the WJF and Corporate Security responses to conflict?

It fits theme that it's at VS, since VS is VS.
I agree with the idea of this thread.

DCD is a mechanical punishment for dying too often. And if you get it you're gonna get either wiped out financially or erase your progress at 10x the rate you earned it, and I've seen cases where DCD just leads to a spiral and perming yourself to "get it over with".

The "leverage" is not balanced at all because one of them can literally make you stop playing the game. I can antagonize NLM and VS equally but I have no reason to go to NLM, I however want to treat my DCD if I don't want to be forced out of the game.

I will however say there are IC ways to get around this, such as disguising yourself as someone else, timing your visit to the DCD clinic, trying to blend in with the crowds, etc.

Ociex, I don't really understand that point, can you clarify more? Clones are done by Genetek but Sense/Net is where you log your data for a new one and for updates

VS can develop a treatment for DCD and another place can give the treatment. Isn't that pretty much the same concept?

I can assure you that no one will STOP you from treatment, even if you just nuked VS lobby you will be offered a way to resolve the issue and get a treatment. But you may have to do things you really do not want to, and that's kinda the point of leverage.
Since it's a genetic disease and VS specializes in genetic modifications, bioengineering and the alteration of DNA, they can cure any and all diseases. As a pharmaceutical corporation.

And with how rare DCD is, I can see VS not wanting to let that patent fall into others hands.

Yeah but you don't do biomod injections at VS, so you don't even need to enter VS HQ for that. I get NightHollow's point.

If people won't stop you from getting DCD treatments though, I guess it's all good.

I wish it was rare. Thanks for the clarification on your point, Ociex.
While we might OOCly observe that in many cases, making enemies with VS may not be a roadblock to getting DCD treatment, our characters don't know that! So we could still RP as if that threat exists.
Thank you for your response, Villa. I had considered how people can utilize disguising to make this problem pretty much go away, but if its too necessary especially for things like DCD treatment then it kind of forces people to spend time investing in the same skillsets all the time.

I'd like to not feel like there's no other choice but to choose disguise and stealth on every character for matters of survival from automated game mechanics, personally.

What svetlana said.

As a rule of thumb you shouldn't expect people to try their best destroying your character as the default though. You can RP your way out of most things if you're willing to take the L and move on.

What svetlana said.

As a rule of thumb you shouldn't expect people to try their best destroying your character as the default though. You can RP your way out of most things if you're willing to take the L and move on.

I agree with what svetlana said, but lately I've been feeling like Gold and Green have too much leverage as it is and that the Red theme just feels completely impotent as a matter of game design when it comes to supporting player actions.

All of that is of course learned IC perspective, not completely OOC but I think perspective matters more than reality to someone playing a character.

This was just my attempt at an idea to improve and increase the interest in getting involved more against other players who already have a ton of support from other players and NPCs/Factions built around them for defense.

I admit it was made from a position of weak experience and game knowledge, I still think it has a lot of merit.

A bit unclear here - are you saying that the rule of thumb is that most other PCs don't want to completely destroy your PC, and thus there are often options to RP your way out of destructive fates?
I think a red-sector cloning place would be cool to see. Maybe it's in a weird grey zone, maybe the rate of DCD is higher because the equipment isn't nearly as good, and maybe they have more expensive costs to cure DCD, but they can do it. Maybe since the process is a little sloppier you end up popping out slightly injured since the process is MOSTLY good but not totally good, to stop people from chain-vatting directly into fights over and over again. Maybe a very rare chance for some kind of mutation that might not be so legal but I won't say nothing if you won't.

Also, a super super expensive place to clone out in the Badlands. I'm talking like, 15k a clone with 3k updates, but at least make it possible for someone who gets kicked out of the city to not perm out the first time they perish.

Yes.
Lets keep one idea/complaint per topic please?
While we all play an IC RP game remember that it's a game and that players and ESPECIALLY Staff members tend to keep in mind the OOC balance of things in mind. It's been said here before but you're not going to run into a roadblock in the form of theme or the gameworld killing your character permanently in the form of corporations/powerful factions screwing you over unless you're cyberpunk ending or you're involved in something terrible (and doing something so terrible to gain the ire of a faction like that usually happens in cyberpunk endings anyway so you have nothing to be afraid of).
If I am completely honest, I don't necessarily think this is a thing the game is doing wrong and needs to be fixed. I think this is something that the way other players roleplay their corporate positions and ego that has made the world design feel problematic for me personally (I don't want to put words into other people's mouths) in that from a time investment perspective I almost don't want to get involved with the corporation versus Mixer theme because I want to keep enjoying this game.

I think there can be better ways to manifest the conflict and reducing risk aversion points even in someone like me who hasn't really made an impact on this game yet could cascade into a lot more people taking risks and increasing exposure and impact in larger volume.

I would like to do more, but you have to trust other players more than you do the game world and staff to feel like it's going to be an enjoyable experience worth your time and I am not fully there yet, admittedly, but I am trying.

@AdamBlue9000, they meant a DCD place, not cloning place.
I believe there's been IC lore established about ViriiSoma's interest in DCD and why its in their building, though the last to really touch on this was about eight years ago.
Thank you for bringing that up, crashdown. Maybe I can stumble across it at some point. I did search the lore page for it and it didn't mention anything like that, but I am interested in learning more.
I think you might be confusing posturing with actual authority. Not to give a peek behind the curtain here but just because someone says X IC doesn't mean they can back it up. There isn't a single position in this game in which you don't have an NPC boss or supervision. In theory, can a PC go against their role and do something while staff are offline? Sure, but that's about true for anything in the game and would come with consequences of their own.

Even the positions with the most authority and freedom in corporate circles (middle management) take quite a bit of time to reach and there's an OOC process behind the scenes to ensure the player understands the position they have and what to do with the authority they possess without ruining the game for other players.

I understand that it takes some time to trust the players but bear in mind that the players in those positions who CAN actually do the things you're afraid of are vetted by Staff extensively. Think of it like this: do you think a regular security guard can ban you from the bank's financial services with the wag of a finger? Maybe if they're head of security or an executive, sure. But the front desk guard?

I will suggest separate topic at the mix/topside conflict perceived imbalance. But I'll also add, as someone pretty close to it, while from the outside it may sometimes look extremely one sided string of vats, that is almost never the actual picture, with many avenues of RP that were attempted and/or done to prevent even looking like that, ones that tend to not be met.

Yes this may not be RP on your PC terms but… So what? This isn't a game to win, it's to write stories, and players who are given the power tend to have shown that they get it, or are learning to get it and had a spanking or two through NPC hands for overstepping.

Thank you for elaborating Cowbell, I appreciate it.

I understand what you're communicating but I think perhaps the way people so vehemently posture their perceived authority on IC channels can lead to people (me) coming to potentially inaccurate conclusions, and this is okay right because it's roleplay.

At the same time however, if these people don't get public reality checks by actual authority, then it's easy to confuse posturing with actual authority and then that becomes your characters reality.

Perspective is a nightmare. I don't assume to have a full picture and I don't assume I know much about this game and this community.

What I do know is that in the conflict I've been involved in with other players I did not enjoy the experience and I am very much not interested in being on such a one-sided experience again, especially since all the characters that ensured I even had any motivation to continue going on, are all gone now.

I wish my experience had involved more rewarding roleplay and less than simple cause and effect, but it didn't, and alls I can do is try to hope for the best in the future and make suggestions that help me want to interact more.

I've only seen VS wave the DCD stick for real one time and it was for biiiig hitters who were more interested in RP than actually perming characters. It was purely political. I don't know your situation right now and dont want to, but there is probably more to it behind the scenes.

ICly, be terrified. Everyone should be more terrified of VS and all the corps. :P Makes me so sad when hotshot Corpsec agents are treated like mall cops… Or if they act like mall cops. They're big bads. I would hate for the terror to be dissolved more than it already is.

Shameless random throw in... Id love to see people give VS scientists a chance to RP DCD treatment. This can totally be done right now but it can be skipped for automagic coded stuff. I know its got to be designed a certain way for logistics reasons and its so rare but heeeeck would that be fun to rp.

Papertiger, thank you for your feedback.

I think your perspective on the situation is interesting, but also a bit concerning. I don't think I would enjoy Viriisoma using DCD to reduce the effectiveness of my character as a punishment for trying to RP conflict them with.

A feature that forces you to regain experience points and take time to get back to normal is effectively an assault on your play time, it damages your time investment directly, so I can only imagine how that might further damage the risk versus reward feelings of people wanting to RP with Viriisoma.

Right now, if the staff encourage VS to let their enemies get DCD treatment, then the only impact is money which is also a time sink but one you can fix through roleplay, it's not quite the same, you can't fix the impact of DCD through roleplay. So I prefer the status quo over enhancing it into an active punishment in the hands of other players.

Respectfully, I think your idea might actually dissuade more conflict rather than enhance and encourage it but I do understand my perspective is limited and I can only imagine things from the lens of my minimal game experience, so I could very well be off the mark.

I think I still support moving DCD treatment to Sense/Net or another location, probably a bit more now.

NightHollow, I will be blunt - you are getting pent up about a situation that doesn't exist of someone using DCD treatment dissuader.

It's literally not something that is happening, it is of course technically possible, but that would be for someone who volunteer, and knowingly, goes onto a path that ends in such place, and continues so against MANY very direct and not subtle at all warnings.

And even then it would be possible to overcome with RP. So really, take the hint people are giving you, often from wider experience and perspective, that this type of punishment, if ever used, would be really consensual between the parties, as are most of more "severe" punishments (aka stuff that lasts, not vats/maimings/fines etc) are doled out.

I am just engaging in a friendly discourse about something I view as a dissuading factor based on my experience with other players and their ability to impact my play time.

With all due respect, the tone of your posts seem a bit more pent up about my perspective than I think my discourse may be coming across, but I will repeat myself from earlier perspective is a nightmare.

Thank you for your feedback though, I don't know why it's necessary to try convince me that I might be being melodramatic or something to that effect.

Right, ICly it's supposed to be scary. You are supposed to be terrified of mega corps, they do have ALL the power. It's perfectly fine to be afraid.

But that shouldn't be fear that stops your character from interacting with them, whether directly or indirectly. There should be some drive that lets your ICly overcome this fear, backed by OOC knowledge that there are checks and balances in place to keep it from escalating beyond any sanity.

But by the same token if you ICly poke the bear, you absolutely should expect the bear to maul you, and be ready to either take the maul, which usually means having actual conversation with the people involved from the corp and resolving matters, or keep escalating and expect the same from the other side.

And to be even more blunt, the only way I could see using something as insane as DCD is where the other party either directly asks for it, or when they flat out refuse engage to RP in meaningful way at all, but continue to be just attacking the megacorp. Those are more or less the only situations where the big toys get deployed like that.

I guess our perspectives just differ too much. My viewpoint is that if I were VS corporate security, I would want people to feel more motivated OOCly and ICly to engage in conflict with me so I can have more things to do with my job, I don't see any need to escalate it constantly until a person breaks and gives up.

I want people to interact, not be too terrified ICly or OOCly to even begin or to allow themselves to be dissuaded. Why do corporations need to be terrifying beyond their infinite budgets?

In the roughly half a year I think it's been more common to see people suggest crime on Gold and Green is not worth the trouble.

I don't know about that personally but I take it seriously and my suggestion I think would help alleviate those feelings if they do really exist.

What makes you think that topside security does not welcome conflict? It's the direct opposite in my experience up there.

Like someone already said before - perceptions, charades, ICly they look scary, OOCly there are limits, check and balances to it. Corps looking scary is upholding the theme of the game, where mechanically most corpsec is poorer than most mixers, and has to work way harder before they can make a move onto anyone, especially if they want to use the corporate tools for it.

I recommend to try the other side, and learn the amount of leg work needed, which includes consideration for driving RP, not stifling it.

That is a fair and reasonable suggestion. I would someday like to try a character on the other side of the fence. Thank you for that.

That aside, I still like my idea and I don't think it harms VS RP in any way.

I'm repeating a bit of what's been said, but yes, the corporations are supposed to and will more or less always have the most leverage. We aren't meant to win against topside. Victories against topside entities are almost always temporary and ultimately futile in the long run.

As for VS hosting the location for DCD treatment? It's both themely and there for a reason. You should always feel the corporations looming over you and that's part of why the DCD cure isn't neutrally located.

Consider the type of characters that most frequently contract DCD. While DCD treatment will almost never be forcefully blocked, it does force those that contract it to engage with the status quo, one of the corporate Gods that can theoretically choose to let you live or die forever.

No matter your ideals or behaviors, no matter where you stand on the sociopolitical divide, the corporations hold your lives in their hands and this is one of the ways that is reflected ICly. You can be the biggest baddest terrorist the city has ever seen. But if you get DCD, you have to walk through those doors or die.

Having the cure for DCD in a non-neutral place allows the opportunity for RP. Just the same as having Sense/Net only on Gold provides opportunities for RP. There are a number of things that are intentionally placed to force players into locations they might not want to be.

That's all.

I think having a black market cloning or DCD treatment service is a really cool idea and maybe it even invites conflict from the corporate entities in these niches who want to run down their black market competitors by sending solos or corpsec teams to shut down these sites.
Maybe as a temporary plot device, and those things have happened before as world plots. But I don't see it being a permanent thing, because then there'd be no shutting it down.