[17:58:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): We'll give folx a few minutes to jump on and such before we begin.
[17:58:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy has joined the channel.
[17:59:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): how's everyone doing tonight
[17:59:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Pretty good. You?
[17:59:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Good, a bit tired from the week
[18:00:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Alright, who wants to kick us off?
[18:01:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Cooperative Competition. It's good for the environment, and ok for you. 
[18:02:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: It's a tough concept for me to explain, truth be told. 
[18:02:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, Cooperative Competition was a phrase I came up with to try to encompass how I think the game is designed to be played.
[18:02:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I have only been in one instance of a PvP situation in 13 and a half months here and to me the idea is that I try to give back as much as was given to me, and not go overboard to try to ruin someones entire play time here over being crossed. Giving back in PvP in fair measures and fun measures as best as I can. I don't know what a lot of that means yet, but that's how I imagine it.
[18:03:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel like a lot of the problems are those outlined on the 'PC Imbalance' thread and the whole 'shroud-sniffing' incident - people not really playing in good faith
[18:04:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think for sake of clarity, I consider PVP to be everything in which players pit themselves against eachother in any form. Not just physical combat. 
[18:04:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I agree with that ^
[18:04:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The idea in a nutshell that we are all cooperating OOCly, by playing by the rules, telling fun stories, trying to have a good time, keeping other peoples good times in mind, playing to theme, helping each other OOCly on help chanels, not abusing bugs. And being competitive ICly as is the nature of a PvP game.
[18:05:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, let's talk about the shroud sniffing thing. For anyone not aware, it was possible to smell people who were fully disguised, and get their custom scent message, which would potentially tell you (OOCly at least) who the person was.
[18:05:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The issue is that not all of the playerbase agrees on what playing to win is, or why it's bad. 
[18:05:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's a social contract to be a collaborative storyteller instead of a pwn everyone you can.
[18:05:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): ^ that for sure
[18:05:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Social contraact is a good way of thinking of it
[18:05:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I like, Reefer. 
[18:06:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Like that*
[18:06:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The shroud sniffing thing is an interesting situation because the rules I put in place specifically say that it is up to the disguised person to hide their identity.
[18:06:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Change description, appear different, use a diff weapon, etc. 
[18:06:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Technically that included changing your smell message, though in reality smell was just not something I had considered code wise.
[18:07:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: It's like playing CK3. It's boring/not as compelling if you're min-maxing IMHO, but if you roleplay and play like your character, even though you want them to really win, it's fun.
[18:07:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: And what about instances where people just 'guess' it's you and murk you, fully disguised or not? 
[18:07:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yeah I mean I have always changed my scent to be something more neutral when I disguise...But it's also sort of, is it really playing in good faith to think you can just sniff random shrouds to identify people like you're a dog? 
[18:07:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: that's valid according to the disguse rules
[18:07:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Because to me, that kind of stuff should have repercussions. 
[18:07:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: It seems hard to predict that someone's solution to not being able to figure out someone's identity is to go around using smell on everyone disguised in the game. That seems like you're ignoring an awful lot of ambient world and RP in general.
[18:08:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: It's not really just one shroud sniffing situation, the way that disguise meta has been removed from rule enforcement has allowed people to take the method of just ganking every shroud that seems like a player and figure out if it's who they're after when the smoke clears, it's optimal gameplay.
[18:08:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think it was technically allowed based on the rules, but ideally it would have been reported sooner. But who's to say people doing it didn't think it was considered by the coders and left in place on purpose, ya know? I wanna operate from good faith as much as possible.
[18:09:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Not trying to derail here, but people playing the numbers games and attacking shrouds used to get attention from certain, very nasty kinds of NPC's. And I don't know that I've heard about this happening in some time now. 
[18:09:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I take grievances with smell-gate because the individuals involved are intimately familiar with the disguise code and what they did was extraordinarily disingenuous.
[18:09:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): But all that being said, I think it was poor form, and removed the ability to do it to a disguised person for that reason.
[18:09:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: This is the first I've heard of it, though I knew you could smell someone in a disguise through co-mentorship type rp with someone. I also...
[18:10:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: *smellgate lol
[18:10:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Ah, well nevermind. Was gonna say if smelling someone is uncouth, then treat it so icly and merc a fool.
[18:10:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Batko I am keeping a list of things to discuss and added your comment to it so we can circle back after we discuss the specifics of this situation more.
[18:10:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Sweet.
[18:10:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think the reason smelling to catch disguises/get through ponchos became such an issue is because it flies in the face of ambient population. Especially Red. smelling to find someone in crowded areas feels like intentionally hitting the 'win via coding and smallworld' button.
[18:10:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I see a wide-variety of disguise meta and tolerance that varies across the board but I'd say that the playerbase is overwhelmingly supportive of those who use it from my perspective with this being a rare exception.
[18:10:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: It would be interesting to have some of those automated shrouds that show up belong to dangerous organizations and if they just get attacked randomly for no reason it can cause a chain of RP to kick off that might lead back to people that might be randomly killing shrouds trying to find players.
[18:11:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: There's also the issue of the people who disguise themselves to be the same exact shortdesc, so you have two 'shrouded lithe punks' or whatever attacking you and it messes with the combat code. I 've never experienced this myself but according to the PC imbalance thread it seems to be a thing some folks do.
[18:11:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I used to get smacked around for randomly targeting shrouds to try and find who I'm looking for when I was new and it was actually a lot of fun, whoever was GMing at the time did so ICly in a way that made sense ICly and OOCly without having to xhelp me and tell me I'm being an idiot.
[18:11:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The random shrouded people that spawn can actually spawn with max ue stats, so attacking them is a dangerous game.
[18:12:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Since you're keeping a list slither, I'd ask that going around and letting us each describe what cooperative competition means to us would be nice to do at some point, thank you.
[18:12:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Cyberpunker has joined the channel.
[18:12:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): we added that specifically to make it more dangerous to just attack random shrouded people.
[18:12:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I would like to see that in general, JakeyBoy. There are things other than just smelling that is uncouth to do someone shrouded or not. And shrouds are particularly hard to tell if they're NPC's or not, in my experience. 
[18:12:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Or rather, they can be. 
[18:12:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Svetlana, I added your comment to my list of things to discuss.
[18:12:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Which is good. That's the point.
[18:13:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I'd actually like to see hoodie NPCs get similar love. But that's another topic.
[18:13:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Thank you Slither. Also I think a potential solution on a coding side would be  to spawn hooded- yes my thoughts exactly Ratchet
[18:13:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What's the hooded issue?
[18:13:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Hooded NPCs need to be wearing immy clothes or cheap Du-WEar clothes and gloves.
[18:13:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Going out to PVP as two to four people stacking the same sdescs is extremely stupid and I personally consider it to be close to code abuse. Scroll blur is a thing and you don't have time to be dicking around with ATTACK 3rd SHROUD while you're getting ganked. 
[18:13:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): ah, it's that they spawn and you can tell they are just wearing a hoddie?
[18:13:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Hoodie NPCs are easy to tell apart because they don't have other clothes on or hand nakeds, etc.
[18:13:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Right now it's too easy to tell if a hooded person is a NPC or not because the hooded NPCs don't spawn with any pants!
[18:13:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: And they have no pants nakeds, just spawn with a hoodie
[18:14:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): if I made them spawn with du-wear, wouldn't that also just be a giveaway eventually as people learn the meta?
[18:14:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: it'd be easier to pretend to be one though
[18:14:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): fair point
[18:14:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There's also the HP issue with shrouds. I don't see how you can tell if someone is a triathlete under a tarp. 
[18:14:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you gave them either du-wear or protek gloves plus some of the generic immy + topside store threads it'd work fine.
[18:14:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I mean, wearing du-wear pants or depot pants for anonymity is a common tactic
[18:14:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: There's a lot of big holes in how disguised NPCs work vs how players act, so it would take a whole lot of work to ever make disguised NPCs consistently fool people.
[18:14:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I know people who wear a hoodie and du-wear to blend. 
[18:14:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: For example, shrouded NPCs don't hang out in a bar or something.
[18:15:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @holdback is great for manipulating that when in disguise
[18:15:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Ratchet I don't want to holdback EVERY single skill and stat
[18:15:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: If you're in a PVP organization, @holdback is suicide. 
[18:15:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): @holdback was originally designed for exactly that actually
[18:15:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Fair point.
[18:15:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: So I guess the larger question I have after listening for a while here is, how do people communicate to other parties whether they feel like something in PVP is meta/powergaming in a way that constructively helps curb that behavior and limits any OOC resentment?
[18:15:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Including my disguise skill
[18:15:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Anyone in a bar is subject to the grapple-sniff-strangle, in extreme cases.
[18:15:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I generally consider a concesion I'm wiling to take in order to be more effectively disguised.
[18:16:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Maybe add disguise mementos to bars as well. Not sure. I don't think that mementos are the solution to everything with disguise meta.
[18:16:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: So i recently learned that shrouds actually cover your ht condition and make you look in excellent condition. I added to an idea thread about @holdback proposing that maybe anything that disguises you,  should cover your ht condition
[18:16:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: Yeah I think at the end of the day, people will find a way to tell when something is an NPC and when it isn't.
[18:16:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm going to be honest here, I don't think this is a code, or even a policy issue. It's a GM and rules enforcement issue (lack thereof). 
[18:16:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): one solution might be an 'appear weaker' command that made you look weaker (IE: excellent condition) instead of spectacular.
[18:16:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I love that idea!
[18:16:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: To answer Amiga's question, as an antagonist you need to communicate with your foes. This can be via SIC monologues, anonymouse phone calls, etc.
[18:16:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): without actually affecting your stats
[18:17:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I actually thought I'd coded something like that...
[18:17:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: YES please:D Just like hte appear uglier
[18:17:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): let me check
[18:17:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: You coded it for CHA but not for END
[18:17:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): ahh that's what I'm thinking of. Okay, seems like it's something we can do! I'll add it to my list.
[18:17:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana smiles.
[18:18:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: thank you!
[18:18:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: During that communication, while delivering villainous monologues you should be leaving some level of OOC comms in there. That might be informing them of options you really shouldn't or other forms of coaching.
[18:19:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think that speaks to what Amiga said: Amiga: So I guess the larger question I have after listening for a while here is, how do people communicate to other parties whether they feel like something in PVP is meta/powergaming in a way that constructively helps curb that behavior and limits any OOC resentment?
[18:19:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I think every time you play an antag you need to have a goal in mind for your character to 'win'. This isn't you winning OOCly, it's what you choose as the rules of engagement for your character to stop engaging with the conflict and be satisfied with what they've done.
[18:19:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I don't see how code is going to fix people admitting to deliberately running other PLAYERS out of the game to stomp competition via griefing.
[18:19:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: That's a nuclear bomb red flag. 
[18:19:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Talon, I've logged that for us to come back to.
[18:20:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What are some ways we could better empower OOC communication with other parties during a PvP situation?
[18:20:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Well it depends, is this situation combat or is it something less fast-paced?
[18:20:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I try to play with the mindset that I should be an antagonist to someone. Anyone. I don't have to be THE antagonist to everyone. But I have to, whether I know it or not, be pissing someone off with my actions. 
[18:20:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I got really frustrated about how if you find yourself simply to be stronger than someone you can sit in their driver seat and keep full control of a vehicle. I made a note about feeling like it was not a very rewarding experience but that was it.
[18:20:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think it has to be something more long form and not combat.
[18:20:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): something that happens after, perhaps
[18:20:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The key is doing a pulse check.
[18:21:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Player to Player  or staff to player?
[18:21:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I have an example that was kinda brutal PvP between me and another player.
[18:21:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: What about situations where neither side believes they are antag? Not in this game, but I've run into a lot of situations where 'infinity wars' have happened with neither side willing to concede defeat and it just ruins the game for all players involved in the conflict after months or years of unresolved battle.
[18:21:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think I killed them 5+ times it was just like awful for them.
[18:21:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: After each time they died, I contacted them and spoke at length.
[18:22:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I discussed my demands and their situation to help relay the situation and even went into detail about options including those which were not in my favor.
[18:22:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I haven't been a fan of chain vatting, in my own experience, and so avoid doing to others. 
[18:22:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It also allowed me to set a timeline realistic with their RL obligations.
[18:23:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, IC communication to the person you're engaging in PvP with, in various forms, to lay out what your demands / reasons are?
[18:23:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's not ideal by any means and to Talon's point on griefing. You should only be trying to move people between Red and topside not off the game.
[18:23:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Something that rly resonated with me and I still look back fondly on is when the people who were about to kill my character took the time to tell me how much they enjoy RPing with me
[18:23:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: in local OOC
[18:23:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah. If someone doesn't know why you are engaged in conflict they've been riped off.
[18:23:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Red text isn't a story.
[18:24:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: it was just a small gesture but it showed that they recognize my humanity as a player and was a nice touch, since they were people who my char often came into conflict with 
[18:24:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's probably not a bad idea to check in with a player if you see they've died more than once or twice in X period of time. GM -> Player, I mean. 
[18:24:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): We've talked about a command for players to give each other feedback in the past. Possibly something that is available after someone kills you (that way you can do it even if you don't OOCly know who it was).
[18:24:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Agreed, @Reefer. And I've had similar experience, @svetlana. Sometimes it is rewarding to cross that barrier briefly to give kudos to the sport of it.
[18:24:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think those are good, slither and reefer. I also think it's important as all players to have an understanding and feel for the people you're engaging with, or trying to engage with. Sometimes you have to be able to tell when a player is tired/isn't engaging back and give them some breathing room to just enjoy other aspects of the game.
[18:24:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It's difficult for GMs to keep up with things like that Talon.
[18:25:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: I would love to do that but we're a bit thin on the people power side of things right now and trying to row the boat on several fronts, so it would be hard from my view to keep up with that yeah.
[18:25:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I agree, Crash. Sometimes people definetly wander into the deep end of conflicts and we should be mindful of that.
[18:25:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I didn't know if you have a kill logger or something of the sort that would easily show deaths and times at a glace, yeah. 
[18:25:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): In a perfect world we'd have more touch points with players, but the game is pretty fast paced and I don't know that we could ever do it with consistency.
[18:26:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: I love a lot the idea of the feedback command, but I can see it also being used for angry reactions potentially? I would love to see an implementation of it somehow though.
[18:26:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I feel that. If I miss logging in for even a couple of days, I'm out of so many loops.
[18:26:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Chain vatting is never fun especially if no RP comes with it
[18:26:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to RatchetEffect]: mood
[18:27:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think there's just a feeling of helplessness that bleeds, and it's really hard to manage because you don't know how to respond/fight back effectively/etc. 
[18:27:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't particularly enjoy my character being killed by stronger PCs over and over. I never have. But I also don't want to restrict the agency of another player to player their character, or make assumptions about why they are doing it. I think there are situations where it is called for, and situations where it becomes unfun or excessive.
[18:28:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): to play*
[18:28:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Question: how is the playerbase about notation when it comes to a kill/death? I'd expect it to be close to 100% of the older players, but even a quick note saying "I died, vatted, updated and have no idea why or I died and it was probably X,Y,Z reason, etc. 
[18:28:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I @note every kill. I'm less worried about it when I die.
[18:28:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Oooh maybe there could be a new @note category that's for deaths/murders
[18:28:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: It's hit n' miss. Sometimes people forget to note or to note why they killed someone. Sometimes they do.
[18:28:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I @note on every kill and every death my characters does or experiences.
[18:29:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I explain why my character did it, if they did it themselves or why they had someone else. If they die I explain how they're feeling, what they know, etc.
[18:29:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I try to note every aggressive interaction I have with a character, up to and including murders. 
[18:29:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Notes are where I see newer players failing the most consistently, and sometimes it's just because they forget it exists or that it's best practice.
[18:30:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Before I got control of my bleed, I would @note pretty wild rants about being killed and not knowing why, getting no rp after. 
[18:31:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: Maybe there could be an OOC prompt for players to note when killing/vatting to encourage newer players to engage with that feature? As a newer player myself, I admit to forgetting it exists.
[18:31:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: That's a good idea!
[18:31:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I have very limited experience and I don't want to give too much information but I think maybe that some people don't really predict what their actions will mean for another person. It's very broad to target a mixer for being a service mixer and then leave it at that, it has the potential to just make a player feel like they can no longer be on Red without risking a random death for a very broad reason, especially with someone who may not even be remotely combat related. It feels like there wasn't enough reason to start a conflict, so it stopped at this very broad, unsolvable level and that's just existence now. No steps to resolve the problem other than "quit your job" no RP to do with your service mixer status to satisfy the other parties. It's just 1 or 0 and that doesn't seem to encourage a player to want to play along since the RP isn't inspired.
[18:32:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: I used to @note all the time - I pretty much stopped after trying to get my noncombat char inserted into more riskier conflict situations and failing time and time again.
[18:32:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I've added two new categories to @add-note 'GOT-KILLED' and 'KILLED-SOMEONE'.
[18:32:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That's a good point JakeyBoy. I feel like lately the playerbase has been more accepting of service mixers as a class lately, especially over the past year/year and a half
[18:32:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: But that's just my POV
[18:32:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: That's bad RP, Jakey. Just going "Rar, I hate X millions of people because angry emoji, now die!" is sort of exactly the kind of issue we're talking about. 
[18:32:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] aroy has joined the channel.
[18:32:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: maybe just a regular 'conflict' category?
[18:32:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I think a telling point to vatting without engaging the player who was killed with RP is that you can get the same experience from a non-puppeted NPC. You can literally get as much RP from running at a pile of rats as this sort of PR. And I agree and have witnessed both 1st and 2nd hand that behaviour. 
[18:33:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio has joined the channel.
[18:33:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: How much did I miss?
[18:33:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: @rewind guid
[18:34:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Don't forget about @rewind! 
[18:34:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I'm a big fan of serious consequences that are short of clone death. Disease, limb loss, etc, but a lot of the feedback I see is against that as well.
[18:35:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Reefer at that point people are just against any sort of consequences it seems :/ 
[18:35:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: See the "lol time to backflip out of my sever" discussion, hehe. 
[18:35:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think there are legit reasons to kill someone without RPing with them directly. But it should not be the norm. Or there should be RP afterwards, to Reefer's earlier point.
[18:35:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I love diseases. I wish people were more receptive of disease RP. I don't mind limb loss, but I understand people who get frustrated by multi-limb loss.
[18:35:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: I think some of the argument I've seen against those consequences is that it's more expensive than vatting often.
[18:36:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: yeah but you dont literally die
[18:36:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There's an explicit rule to treat suicide as if you're about to perm yourself.
[18:36:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): We've limited multi-limb loss, and we've also been pushing an IC narrative that service mixers shouldn't be looked down upon. The whole point is to take money from the corps. The more the better.
[18:36:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: If that person is very hard to engage with in PVP because they lay low a lot I can see why the RP would only come after, but it should come after and not be a situation where there is no follow up. 
[18:36:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, people focus on the cost but the dead end of RP is far worse imho.
[18:36:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Cut of all my limbs but leave me with a terrible grudge.
[18:36:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): help suicide was recently updated. It was a not well written before IMO.
[18:36:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: word
[18:36:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: WORD Reefer!
[18:37:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I lean in Reefer's direction on this. Short of clone death, I'm down for seeing more lasting consequences.
[18:37:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It was? 
[18:37:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Someone who had been dealing with a lot of PCs avoiding consequences must have written it, while triggered.
[18:37:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Try fighting the whole of topside and see how expensive clones become. Heh
[18:37:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana cackles madly at ReeferMadness.
[18:37:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana cackles madly at RatchetEffect.
[18:37:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Sorry Reefer didn't mean to cackle at ya
[18:38:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, what do people think of a command that lets you send a message to someone who killed you? Or a message to someone you killed, OOCly?
[18:38:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Its' going to be bleed central.
[18:38:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: In terms of money, sure, losing a limb is more expensive. But there's more rp to be had. You can rp it out. Living without a limb or whatever. Fuming over it as you heal. Things like that. Let it fester, or reconsider your actions. Or whatever.
[18:38:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Bleeeed
[18:38:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: i think if that gets added it should have a cooldown so people dont flame :^)
[18:38:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I would worry about people sending angry messages. I think it'd need to go through an approval process, but that takes staff resources.
[18:38:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I think it would be interesting as a social experiment and as long as people are held accountable for the contents of the message they send.
[18:38:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Clone death is ironic in that you can't learn from it Icly. Because you don't remember what happened.
[18:39:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: I feel like that sort of command would need to be filtered through GMs for appropriateness because you'll get a lot of tilted people.
[18:39:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What about if you could only send canned messages?
[18:39:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Oh that'd work.
[18:39:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): and we provide like 50 different options or something, written by players.
[18:39:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Only if GGWP is one of them! :D
[18:39:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: It's hard for me not to feel guilty when doing bad things to people. If they then send me a message, I don't see that being good. 
[18:39:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Make it on a cooldown, though, only sendable once to a person. Otherwise someone will, I promise you, spam a canned response out of anger. Like a sarcastic spamming.
[18:40:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I normally just try to handle it IC with a alias hop (if needed) when someone pops out of the vats.
[18:40:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: See the spit emote. 
[18:40:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): you'd only be able to send one.
[18:40:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: Yeah, I feel like they will be used a lot tongue in cheek like on Rocket League or MTGA or something.
[18:40:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Would ppl start to expect these messages, then? 
[18:40:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't see another way we could allow that kind of OOC feedback/kudos without bleed or needing to audit every message sent by every player on the staff side.
[18:40:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: When you're doing solo work it really isn't in your characters interest to relay a 'nothing person, chum' message but it goes a long way to the player on the other side of the keyboard.
[18:40:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: You learn nothing from the vats. And if you haven't updated recently it kills any RP you might have been working on and have to retread the steps. Being vatted with zero RP punishes the player far more than the character IC. IMHO. Running into a bunch of dogs or rats without the skill to fight them off and gets you killed offers the same amount of RP, is that something we want to have PC's doing?
[18:40:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: 'Thanks asshole I just lost two weeks of playtime FUCK YOU' What if they sent that?
[18:41:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I mean, if you aren't updating daily you ain't scared enough of dying :)
[18:41:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Slither mentioned canned messages, which I think is a good compromise.
[18:41:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I used to update like 3 times a day
[18:41:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at Slither
[18:41:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I only update bi-annually. 
[18:42:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I did too. At the most chaotic era of my rp
[18:42:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: When I could afford it. heh
[18:42:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: I pretty much did, as well.
[18:42:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): also used to die like 5 times a week so it made sense to update a lot
[18:42:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Real talk.
[18:42:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Was that enjoyable Slither?
[18:42:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): oh yeah, I knew what I was getting into.
[18:42:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It was a different era. We were all gung ho yelling at eachother on SIC.
[18:42:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Most of the game was on Red.
[18:42:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I don't know if there's time for it, but if we wind up extending, I'd really like to talk about current state.
[18:43:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I was getting death that often a while back too. But yeah, I walked into it intentionally with a lot of different factions/players. 
[18:43:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): we'll go 2 hours at least.
[18:43:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I'd also like for each of us to have a chance to talk about what cooperative competition means to us personally! But I don't want to interrupt any ongoing conversations.
[18:43:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: I've died many times a week, but it was fun, except one particular... 'arc'.
[18:43:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: We started that way but it would be nice to hear from the people who joined later.
[18:44:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: The most annoying type of death is the 'You're in a SIC key with someone my faction hates so I'm gonna chain-vat you' type of death
[18:44:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): for sure wulf, I'm not saying every death was fun by any means. There was one particular time where I got killed like 30 times by the same PC who was like, 8000 ue (before we had a cap) and I was at like 1000.
[18:44:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Wtf?
[18:44:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Oh...him.
[18:45:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Haha yeah.
[18:45:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Guess I'm glad I wasn't around that long ago.
[18:45:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: ANYWAY. 
[18:45:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): He quite playing for 5 years, came back, tried to fuck with my character and got his ass beat. I didn't kill him though. I let him off with a warning. Sweetest revenge ever.
[18:46:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): quit*
[18:46:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek has joined the channel.
[18:46:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay let me bring us back to something someone said earlier...
[18:46:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: So Coop Comp. I see it in everything really, even interactions with some characters I consider chums. Withholding even little bits of data from a good friend is in that spirit to me. My character wants them to win, but wants himself to win more. 
[18:46:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): (we'll table the canned messages thing for now as it needs more discussion)
[18:46:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): batko: It's not really just one shroud sniffing situation, the way that disguise meta has been removed from rule enforcement has allowed people to take the method of just ganking every shroud that seems like a player and figure out if it's who they're after when the smoke clears, it's optimal gameplay.
[18:48:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Very sad. And compounded by the smaller playerbase. "X hangs at Y bar. Shroud there, must be X. Time for a grapple adventure."
[18:48:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm has joined the channel.
[18:48:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Do people feel that is happening on a regular basis?
[18:49:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the reality is Staff don't have the bandwidth to rampantly enforce disguise meta but it should be reported nonetheless.
[18:49:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: It was, I have not seen it so much, but there is less combat in general I have seen of late. 
[18:49:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: So, coooerative competition and PvP? Sindome can't have 'true' PvP, because there are too many rules players need to self police on.
[18:49:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I mean it's not a God Wars game where you kill everything.
[18:49:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Intent is important.
[18:50:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think some of it is nefarious. I think some of it being done is frustration. I think no smallworlding suspects is good, but I think it's compounded by the fact that it's not a two way street and that leads us down this slippery road.
[18:50:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I don't think the answer is to have less rules. We aren't in a hack and slash.
[18:50:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Seems like there are certain players who tend to lean towards the 'optimal gameplay' strategy
[18:50:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'll refrain from commenting since I've not been in the thick of it for a good bit now. It was a consistent problem with a handful of players previously, though.
[18:50:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine has joined the channel.
[18:50:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I might have been sniffed once or twice in shroud that recall, but if I wear a shroud into a club or bar on red I expect half of the fun is people trying to figure out who I am when I linger with no obviously nefarious purpose. 
[18:51:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: But there are supposedly tons of shrouds in bars, to see one shroud and target that one shroud is small-worlding
[18:51:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: As for my thoughts on cooperative competition. It is understanding that conflict what ever form it takes is to drive the enjoyment and story for all involved, it is about forming a narrative between parties on all sides that is interesting and compelling. Akin to a DM and player relationship for TTRP where yes, there is an element of the DM fight the players, but a good DM will make it compelling, and the players will respond in kind. The most important thing to me is 'fun and meaningful involvement in a joined narrative'.
[18:52:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I would hope people would be roleplaying trying to figure out who the person under the shroud is if they are suspicious.
[18:52:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: I just don't understand how anyone could have fun chain vatting. I've only done it once, and it was after giving them a million chances and a few breaks, and it wasn't fun at all.
[18:52:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: Shrouds do not make you invisible, that's what stealth is for.
[18:52:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods.
[18:52:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I mean yeah, but I think there has to be a small bit of levity with that. You can't just ignore the one shroud in the bar all the time because of ambiance. You'd never rp if you just ignore each player among the masses.
[18:52:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: good point
[18:53:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Yeah, that is very true. We want players to interact. But I don't think anyone has fun if the interaction is 'kill mano'.
[18:53:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think I'm probably the most guilty of chain vatting people here and I like to think I have done it with as much care as possible in these last few years..
[18:53:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I don't think a shroud being in a bar is suspicious or worthy of ignoring. I think a shroud sitting there not interacting raises suspicions enough to go over and maybe grill them.
[18:53:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Agreed. Chain vatting is, at the very least, not very interesting and vaguely lazy RP.
[18:53:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I think there is a difference between interacting with a shroud who is clearly interacting with those around them, and grappling and sniffing the first PC shroud you see in a crowded street. 
[18:53:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've definitely found amusement in the players that try to target all shrouds because they're shrouds and no other reason. Like...never trust a shroud. I'm out for all of you. Buddy you ain't got enough arms to stop all of us. Or enough years.
[18:53:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I always assume if you're in a shroud or some kind of disguise that you don't want to be interacted with randomly and I wait. That might just be an IC self preservation method for me though.
[18:53:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you're going to kill someone over and over, you owe them an engaging story of strife beyond the red text.
[18:54:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I wish that we, collectively, pushed and embraced non-shrouded crime significantly more than we do. Shrouds themselves are just get out of consequences cards, and consequences are RP themselves. 
[18:54:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: You're shooting yourself in the ass sometimes without even realizing it. 
[18:54:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: maybe if the prison was used
[18:54:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Hot Take: Should we get rid of disguises?
[18:54:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Just ponchos. ;-)
[18:54:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: No.
[18:55:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Keep the banishment robes though.
[18:55:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think it's also important to expose yourself to others.
[18:55:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Nope. In my experience which is limited. It is a small minority ruining it for a majority. 
[18:55:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you get away with a crime, tell someone about it.
[18:55:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Shit. Give them a photo of it.
[18:55:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'd like to see a no-disguise test made sometime. Or hoodies at the best. Seeing people doing muggings in a ski mask would be great.
[18:56:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ponchos can go, they're silly.
[18:56:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I tried to solve the disguise meta problem by making it an IC problem, and it's been somewhat successful, at least in reducing the pain the staff have to deal with, and the subjectivity of players being like xhelp there is no way X knew it was me! when the reality is like, there is a hidden camera in their apartment they don't know about or something. And we can't tell them that.
[18:56:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: That's true. My character's particular set of skills (hah. QuiGon voice* I have a very particular set of skills). But even shrouded, I've tried to give opportunities at catching me here and there. By lingering around the scene of the crime, or intentionally walking the same route to a stash or things like. I've seen other similarly skilled characters use their own methods. Calling cards, etc. I think it's often on the player to come up with a way to out themselves, shroud or no.
[18:56:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I never used one before but they seem to hide everything from your face to your toes, I would hope they have some kind of penalty if people fight in that kind of massive cloth
[18:57:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: They do come with stat penalties. 
[18:57:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: THey have a minor penalty for perception I think bc they cover your eyes
[18:57:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Ponchos were suppose to be changed to show your feet but it never went through.
[18:57:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Players rely way too much on wearing bedsheets to be safe, it's kind of ridiculous that the game's population is like walking canvas lumps.
[18:57:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Should we increase the penalities of wearing a shroud/poncho?
[18:57:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think disguise meta isn't really that bad but the outlier in the community who abuse it need to be called out by Staff.
[18:57:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Maybe the penalties are too lenient?
[18:57:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm going to repeat what I've been screeching about for years now regarding disguises. They are TOO EASY TO USE. Stacking literally should not be a thing, full stop. If you want to be a poncho master because you're heavily UE'd into it, great. Right now it's a joke how effective they are. 
[18:58:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Realistically, what do ponchos do to you?
[18:58:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] The discussion of 'What Cooperative Competition Means, and How it Works in a PvP Game' has been extended for another hour.
[18:58:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): We definitely had some conversations with people over the smell thing. And we also have conversations with people who are targeting shrouded people under the guise of 'i am going to attack all shrouded people'. That is something we do police.
[18:58:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I don't want to get into IC item stat changes without a Slither approval here, so I'll wait to answer that, Wulf.
[18:58:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Protect you from the rain.
[18:58:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: i dont think nerfing ponchos or disguise is going to encourage more people to do risky things
[18:59:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: No, true.
[18:59:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: But they are silly.
[18:59:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Perhaps a combination of more penalties for ponchos and making them easier to slip / reveal the wearer.
[18:59:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I'm not sure that the answer is to punish people who effectively employ disguises. I think that just unbalances things more towards the combat-specialised characters.
[18:59:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I don't think disguises gate people from doing crimes at all. 
[18:59:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I don't think disguise needs to be nerfed but I think ponchos as the end-all be-all contribute little.
[18:59:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: No amount of penalties will make them make sense because they're mostly worn when penalties don't matter anyway.
[18:59:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: they are silly yeah but unless you want to nerf cameras and display names i don't think there's an easy fix for them
[18:59:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I do think the poncho at all times meta takes the theatrics out of stuff. Or encourages the diminished aspects of theatrics.
[18:59:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think it's a two edged sword. On one hand, disguises are a bit OP, even in my opinion, and I use them liberally in various forms.
[18:59:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: If you want something done without being seen then hire someone else to do it.
[18:59:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): how easy they slip is based on the thigns you do in character that could reveal who you are. Your skill determines the disguise score, every time you move, talk, emote, pose, hold something, etc. you reduce your disguise score by a point. If it gets to 0 you are revealed.
[19:00:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ponchos really limit the gameplay space for improving the rest of disguise because they're such a be-all-end-all tool.
[19:00:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[19:00:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: On the other, an undisguised person who is often in a place commiting a crime that is hard to catch, but not see the aftereffects of, will come to be suspected because of small wordling.
[19:00:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I love disguise though as a whole, I just don't like ponchos.
[19:00:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I agree with Adea honestly. 
[19:00:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: But just... why do people even play this game? I want to do insane shit and turn pubSIC into a frenzy and stuff. Not just... do nothing and be a nobody. I don't understand the risk aversion.
[19:00:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: my biggest gripe with ponchos is that it takes away hitman agent 47 disguises like pretending to be wicks or 3lp or whatever.
[19:00:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Is there even a place for non-combat characters within the Cooperative Competition goal though? Kind of building off what Adea said, too.
[19:01:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Does it make any sense to give the ponchos a lower starting disguise score? If that is even possible? So that they hit 0 faster? I suggest that with the assumption that it would encourage layering of disguises other than ponchos. Wigs, contacts, masks, hoodies, etc.
[19:01:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I wish you got a warning for how soon your disguise would slip, especially for the wig/contacts users. I know there -is- a way but it is visible to others that you are doing that.
[19:01:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: so if anything, i think you should buff makeup and wigs instead of nerf ponchos
[19:01:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Personally I think the object existing in any form will forever limit the design space.
[19:01:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Even with a lower score they still obscure your entire person.
[19:01:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That's the fundamental problem.
[19:01:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Ponchos suck. Agree with 0x1mm. 
[19:01:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in ReeferMadness's general direction.
[19:02:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): you can layer disguises now. I'm not sure if layering + then wearing a poncho adds an additional benefit. I think I specifically made it so a poncho trumps other disguise so you can stack a wig + a poncho. But I could be wrong.
[19:02:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Layering contributes to the problem, greatly. 
[19:02:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think nerfing disguises is going to cause much larger problems. In the last guided discussion, people were lamenting the lack of topside and anti-corporate crime; the difficulty of making things happen as non-combat characters; the lack of aggression. If we want to make those things more difficult, then making disguises less functional is probably going to achieve that.
[19:02:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: You can stack hoodies, makeup, redone hair, and ponchos with wigs and lenses. I've tested all of it.
[19:02:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Speaking of stacking etc and layering I don't know if it's been fixed but please let glasses be worn over contacts.
[19:02:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes that is true. It would cause other problems.
[19:02:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: As to non-combatants, I think they are extremely valuable but are best tapped by a veteran fixer. I think syndicates could do a better job of reinforcing that aspect.
[19:02:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: If you take your poncho off and are still wearing a wig underneath, it doesn't matter because your display name is exposed anyway.
[19:02:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Does anyone have a strong opinion about us removing ponchos/shrouds from the game entirely? Or maybe making them only cover your upper body and not your legs/shoes?
[19:02:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Nevermind reefer corrected me.
[19:02:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in svetlana's general direction.
[19:03:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I have an alternate suggestion. 
[19:03:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I definitely do, for the reasons I just stated.
[19:03:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Remove ponchos. Make the stealth nanogens also function as a disguise.
[19:03:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: A *translucent* baka is standing here.
[19:03:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Actual ponchos I believe should at their longest come down to someone's thighs or knees and expose the arms still. Are these things meant to be actual ponchos?
[19:03:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: I just think shrouds need more balance. You have some players that sink loads of CHA points and can use actual disguises but combatants can throw minimum points in to disguise, throw a shroud on and stay hidden forever.
[19:03:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think we're trying to solve one issue that's going to have much broader ramifications and worsen more immediate issues.
[19:04:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think reducing the cost of wigs and lenses would be a solid tradeoff to weakening the poncho. For the same reasons Adea is stating.
[19:04:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I totally agree that ponchos going would be rough in the short term but it opens the space to new solutions down the line.
[19:04:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yeah wigs and contact lenses are super pricey :(
[19:04:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think ponchos should cover legs but could not cover hands or feet. I'd like to see the score diminished on the disguise scale, making them easier to slip when doing intense/involved actions.
[19:04:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): a shroud does not mean you can stay disguised forever, to be clear.
[19:04:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: shrouds absolutely do not work forever if you actually do things in them with poor skills
[19:04:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: My perception is that what @Plebe just said is close to reality. The odds of a poncho slipping in combat, even for someone who hasn't heavily invested in the stats and skills to be "good" at disguise, seems to be very low.
[19:04:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: Can you verify your eyeballs through cosmetic contacts? 
[19:04:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): they are still subject to the same system as the other disguises from a hiding your name perspective.
[19:04:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I agree with intense/involved actions using more of your score pool.
[19:04:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Regarding wigs and contacts, the PC operated store and fixers should fix your pricing issues.
[19:04:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I really dislike the idea of having such a knee jerk reaction like 'remove' or 'nerf' poncho's because I am not sure people realise how much that hurts so many characters, and boosts the characters that have previously caused the issues that you are proposing the changes to stop.
[19:05:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: But if PC's don't use it - no one will want to lease it.
[19:05:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Exactly. A shroud is not 'you'll never be revealed.' But to be clear, if people are looking for players to step up and cause more trouble, removing one of the means for doing so incognito is going to actively discourage that.
[19:05:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: yeah
[19:05:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That's a fair point for sure.
[19:05:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: If ponchos are removed, I suggest lowering the bar / skill requirement to change the character @Name. As others have mentioned, that is the main reason for ponchos. As much as well all try to stay in character and react ICly, it's hard to NOT see the @name of even the best disguised characters.
[19:06:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): and one of the reasons so much time has been put into the disguise system over the years.
[19:06:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: If you have issues with certain players sniffing shrouds, grabbing shrouds at random or killing them. Removing those options just means that the people who they are targeting have even less of a defensive measure. 
[19:06:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: IMO, reefer, you can fix the relevant store by allowing the PC who leases it to sell branded clothing there to increase income since wigs/contacts are niche. But maybe needed for another discussion.
[19:06:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Fopsy has a good point
[19:06:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in svetlana's general direction.
[19:06:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes I think making true disguise a little better/easier is a reasonable compromise to not having ponchos.
[19:06:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Which in turn means that they are less likely to do anything, and more likely to play it safe or just leave the game. 
[19:06:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I said it's a rules enforcement issue. 
[19:06:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, two issues here.
[19:06:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I think if it's just a few people doing the metagaming/playing in bad faith, then these few people should get consequences
[19:06:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: One is rule enforcement.
[19:06:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: One is looking at a skill and archetype.
[19:07:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: For reference, I have a pretty middle of the road disguise skill. I can stay shrouded for quite a long time in a poncho, doing anything from talking and drinking at bars, to using my character's primary skillset extensively. I mean like...I haven't even had to look to see if it's in danger of slipping in a long time. It's that good at staying up.
[19:07:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I completely agree with fopsy. We're responding to the behaviour of a few irresponsible players (I have no idea who they are) but actively making it easier for them.
[19:08:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Like I can stay shrouded for hours in some situations.
[19:08:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: With stacking, that is.
[19:08:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What about making combat reduce disguise at a higher rate?
[19:08:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think we all know who we're talking about and what we don't enjoy about what they've done. Dictating the roadmap of the game around them won't fix much but exploring ways to better support the larger playerbase is good.
[19:08:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: kinda assumed it already did
[19:08:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: You are considering destroying a reasonable play path in reaction to a limited number of characters playing in bad faith. I would like to see more disguise options, but given people meta shrouds in the ways mentioned previously, these other options NEEED to offer as good as or better disguise than ponchos.
[19:08:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That just makes  combat more of the solution for everything, Slither.
[19:08:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: If the solution is to push code and policy changes, then the bad actors continue to perpetuate toxic shit while this is going on, and you're still losing people over it. There will always be exploits and methods to leverage to your advantage, but the solution is to address the players, not just the code or policy. 
[19:08:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Combat is already the most powerful thing in Sindome. We should be working against that for other archetypes.
[19:08:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: I'm more or less on my first character still. The message I got based on the characters I met when I first started playing was that the ability for a character to disguise themselves, even if it's just a poncho, was effectively a necessity for any character who wants to live a "long time". Am I alone in that? Or is that kind of a rule of thumb? That some sort of disguise is pretty much a requirement?
[19:08:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I think instead of nerfing aspects of the game that allow people to take more risks and commit crimes, it might be best to target the bad actors
[19:09:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: *does a Jacobim Mugatu voice* Disguises, so hawt right now. 
[19:09:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Poncho is a bandaid that hides a bigger problem though, the optimal solution can't just be an item that renders someone incognito.
[19:09:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: +1 for combat reducing disguise at a higher rate.
[19:09:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Well let me step back. When is disguise NOT slipping an issue? Is it combat? Is it during grapples? Is it something else? How can we balance it such that we don't take away the ability for characters to do crime, while also making it more balanced for the circumstances that it could be abused in?
[19:09:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's a constant issue and source of paranoia, dude.
[19:09:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The fact you can't even look at a mirror without it posing to the whole room is painful.
[19:09:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Disguise skill stops being an issue before you even start to curve into it, Slither. It's dumb as fuck. 
[19:10:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at ReeferMadness.
[19:10:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think my character would be hella dead if I'd never used disguises, Hek, yeah.
[19:10:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: im not gonna lie i look at myself like 400 times while doing shrouded stuff
[19:10:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yeah I wish mirrors didn't have an echo to the entire room
[19:10:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Disguise is super powerful on a shroud and stress-inducingly weak on advanced disguises.
[19:10:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: It discourages more nuanced disguise RP like the wig/contacts disguise
[19:10:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: Having done some IRL combat in a poncho, no way you're keeping that hood over your head when it goes down.
[19:10:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: @reefer I would love if non-combat characters could be more involved in conflict rp. Right now its seems like there's two games - one party planning game and one pvp game.
[19:10:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Let me be clear, the admin step in and talk to people. Sometimes we have to notice an issue, sometimes it's clear. But we do talk to people. I allowed an entire thread on the BGBB that was pretty salty, so it's not like some of this stuff isn't public. But there are indeed multiple sides to every story. And we have to take that into account as well. So I don't see this as an enforcement issue at this time, because we've had the conversations.
[19:11:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think disguise is fine mostly. Ponchos have minimal value thematically or story-wise  and a cybernetic nano equivalent would be more approrpirate. 
[19:11:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[19:11:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I have a question, if your shroud disguise breaks and you see the name of a person, does that really help you ICly as much as it does actually seeing what theyre wearing? I don't really understand what seeing their display name does for you in character
[19:11:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I was away for a bit.
[19:11:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: yeah there should be a disguise nano or some more options for advanced disguses that are better then a poncho
[19:11:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I agree with Reefer that something technological would be a pretty reasonable replacement.
[19:11:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: like a scramble suit...
[19:11:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Not sure how it stands now, but Ponchos over Xo? No go. Again, not sure if that's possible now or not.
[19:12:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I don't have any issues with people grilling suspicious shrouds, no. But the consistent behavior I was witnessing was not just being suspect of a shroud or disguised person, but rather engaging in combat or confrontation first and -then- figuring out who it was.
[19:12:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Ponchos do not restrict anything you wear or use, Ratchet. 
[19:12:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: But that's more specific behavior rather than an endemic community problem, I think.
[19:12:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Ponchos over Xo5?!
[19:12:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Yeah, you should have to choose between heavy armor and anonymity. 
[19:12:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Agreed, Batko. I think it just left such a bad taste in everyones mouth that we can't stop talking about it.
[19:12:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Imagine how hilarious that would look. 
[19:13:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Agreed Reefer, Batko. 
[19:13:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So, let's take a quick moment to summarize before we get too lost.
[19:13:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in ReeferMadness's general direction.
[19:14:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Key takes. 1) We should re-evaluate Ponchos merit in the new disguise code.
[19:14:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: I might be wrong, but I thought there already was a disguise chrome. I've never seen it first hand, but I thought it existed. Like a holographic thingy.
[19:14:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I believe you are incorrect, Ghost.
[19:14:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: There isn't, no. Be rad though.
[19:14:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): there is a stealth chrome or nano I think
[19:14:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: There's a stealth tech, different from disguise. 
[19:15:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We need a btter pipeline to support non-combatant getting into conflict.
[19:15:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Right.
[19:15:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Put a 2) in front of that one.
[19:15:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: There is not, at least presently in general ability to obtain. Might be admin chrome that does. 
[19:15:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at ReeferMadness.
[19:15:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Absolutely agreed, Reefer.
[19:15:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Any key points I missed?
[19:15:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): there is also a special 'holo shroud' type thing but I think that is ver plot specific and basically just does the name change thing (it was created before that was part of disguise code)
[19:15:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've tried playing without combat for a while, it feels impossible sometimes. 
[19:15:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: How important is the @name aspect of disguise?
[19:16:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think I can field that.
[19:16:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: And that's even knowing that with a combatish background, other players in the know consider that. Whether I openly fight or not.
[19:16:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: that sounds awesome, slither, and should be sold somewhere
[19:16:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I am going to say something crazy at the moment here. 
[19:16:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you see someone's @name once and you see them again - you recognize them.
[19:16:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I'd like to ask again, cause I think its important for me to understand how to play this type of mechanic. "I have a question, if your shroud disguise breaks and you see the name of a person, does that really help you ICly as much as it does actually seeing what theyre wearing? I don't really understand what seeing their display name does for you in character"
[19:16:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's not perfect but its how it goes.
[19:16:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The ratio is way off on combat to non-combatants right now. 
[19:16:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Does it though? The newer policy was @name wasn't enough.
[19:16:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to TalonCzar]: What do you mean?
[19:16:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: I don't rven know what it's like playing without combat.
[19:17:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You die a lot and cause a lot of chaos. :-)
[19:17:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I actually hate that you only see the name when a disguise breaks and if a disguise breaks I think you should be able to see face descriptions of some part. I've had situations where people have told me someone is X because their poncho slipped but realistically it's still just a name. I hate it. I feel guilty. I hate it.
[19:17:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: its fun but i wouldnt want to do it forever
[19:17:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Slither (correct me if I'm wrong) does not think character name is enough to identify someone. You need to see their desc, etc. This is at least when it comes to cams.
[19:17:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There's way too much supporting or second-line people vs combatants. But it's also a problem of the UE gulf, as well. 
[19:17:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): help disguise outlines a lot of the answers here
[19:17:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I concur with Crash and 0x1mm but its hard to callout.
[19:17:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I was under the impression seeing someone's display name doesn't tell you anything about them. That's how it was explained when I was a new player.
[19:17:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Alternatively, ponchos don't hide the face at all, but do obfuscate names.
[19:18:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I assume it's similar with in person, because you can't see a name on a cam and say it's this person. I don't know how it'd be different in person. Cause you'd need the desc to differentiate one Bill from another Bill.
[19:18:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Like you've got to see out of somewhere.
[19:18:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: What about, if your disguise breaks you -expose- a naked?
[19:18:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Could just avoid all physical confrontation with your combat enemies until they go insane oocly.
[19:18:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I like that solution.
[19:18:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): "Other characters are under no obligation to believe your character is someone different than who they assume they are."
[19:18:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Maybe it'd help to not refer to these shroud things as ponchos, they're clearly not a poncho.
[19:18:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: The trend i see for non-combatants is that they try to get involved - topside at least they get referred to security - and then nothing happens.
[19:18:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's not perfect though and could be messed with Fopsy.
[19:18:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): "If a PC notices your PC they can assume you are whoever they want to assume you are. They do not need to justify it. You need to use the tools to make it hard to guess. Again, that's assuming that you are noticed at all and not lost in the crowd."
[19:18:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to RatchetEffect]: Can you clarify the cams statement? Or check my understanding. As far as I know, if you have only 'seen' a character on cams, you cannot recognize them face to face. But if you have seen a character face to face, then you see them on cams, you recognize them. Right?
[19:18:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Ponchos, like trenchcoats, come in various lengths
[19:19:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Have a check in there to make sure that the @naked is filled of course, but expose it and as the disguise fails more and more it exposes more and more of the @nakes in quicker sucession.
[19:19:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Could be spammy
[19:19:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think this is revealing how limiting the design space of ponchos is. Having to create a lot of work arounds to make them functional.
[19:19:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think expose face and the character desc would be solid.
[19:19:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: it means that your disguise could fail, but if you just show some fingers or something it is fine. Ans Svetlana, it could but rather that than your disguise drops and suddenly BAM IT'S YOOOOOOU!
[19:19:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Ponchos are also the original disguise from like 20 years ago.
[19:19:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): that is true
[19:19:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to fopsy]: True
[19:20:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: They haven't really been considered since the disguise revamp.
[19:20:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: This still shows hands and feet and can you imagine fighting in this? http://sindo.me/SJ1uMun6j.jpg
[19:20:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: People really need to realize that you can do crime without disguises. Most RP games I've played don't let you be anonymous to the extent that SD does, and they're just as crime-laden as any other game. There's entire organizations in the game that (more or less) forbid their use, entirely. Those organizations are incredibly successful. 
[19:20:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Right exactly. The system has come a long way, maybe it's ready to fly on its own with a few tweaks to helmets/cyber/masks.
[19:20:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'm not against the idea that if you lose your disguse we do an 'expose face/head/eye' whatever
[19:20:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: It's so stressful trying to wear a wig and contacts because your disguise could drop any second and then you'd be fucked
[19:20:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: man, we need more helmets
[19:20:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @Hek Lemme find the bgbb discussion link after this. 
[19:20:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We have 5 or so plus masks.
[19:21:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think ponchos falling is one thing for expose. I think a different consequence should come from advanced disguises falling.
[19:21:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: remove the construction hat, add motorcycle helmet
[19:21:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: On the subject of undisguised crime. I think that is a great example of cooperative competition. There are only so many criminals and only so many judges / security forces. Both sides "need" each other to a certain extent. If characters are too scared to crime due to the consequences of getting caught, crime goes down. When that happens the game and theme suffer.
[19:21:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: i.e. the wig/lenses/makeup kinds
[19:21:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: but i digress
[19:22:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to RatchetEffect]: Thank you
[19:22:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I think we need more subtlety on that poll...when you say disguise drops is it 'poncho' or is it 'wig/contacts'?
[19:22:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes it's tricky because ponchos are what most people are talking about when they say such-and-such is unbalanced, but then there are characters in true disguises sweating bullets.
[19:23:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: Tailors actually being able to make masks, good quality costuming that won't break disguises, and even create wigs and contact lenses that don't fall apart after three outings would be a good balance to ponchos being OP maybe...? You want a poncho that'll actually keep a disguise, and hold up that disguise in combat? IC interaction...
[19:23:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Could also revisit the ability for tailors to make disguises, but hard-cap the number of slots it can cover. Like you can make a spooky hood and skeleton mask and RP skeletor - You have some level of plausible deniability, but also a calling card.
[19:23:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: JINX! 
[19:23:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: that would be dope
[19:23:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: They can but you need to lease the store NO ONE BUYS CRAP FROM.
[19:23:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): got to take the dog out, back in 5 min. will catch up when I get back.
[19:23:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Not entirely true Reefer, but I know exactly what yo umean. 
[19:23:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Why would you lease that place, lol? Ponchos exist. 
[19:23:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Forgive me if this is already a thing but what if a "shroud" always takes damage from combat, since it is such a supremely massive obfuscation of your body parts you can't hit someone without cutting through or impacting it, that it start exposing you through taking damage.
[19:24:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: wigs and contacts are also overpriced
[19:24:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: It's a great place. It just needs a little flexibility.
[19:24:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in Kalii's general direction.
[19:24:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at Kalii.
[19:24:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: This city needs a higher class of criminal.
[19:24:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to RatchetEffect]: What do you mean?
[19:24:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ponchos failing in combat is often not a huge deal unless you're going for maximum 'I was never there'.
[19:24:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Everything on gold is overpriced...hire a fixer or work with the owner. Prices drop significantly.
[19:24:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: "Well there's that place on that one level that no one shops at. Have fun."
[19:24:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: So this js in response to people powergaming right?
[19:24:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I Think the thing is that the breaking of shrouds disguise should not have Combat as the most optimal way of doing it.
[19:24:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: I would really like to see more high tech consumable disguise options that feel more cyberpunk.
[19:25:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Because that just makes people even more inclidd to just attack shrouds.
[19:25:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I'd actually say the retail price isn't even that bad. When you consider the price plus amount of uses it comes out to 390c per use. I don't think that's unreasonable, but I understand it probably dissuades new characters.
[19:25:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Whatever could you mean, that a tarp isn't cyberpunk!? Haven't you seen BladeRunner? It's always raining! 
[19:25:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think getting rid of ponchos and expanding the disguise memento PCs accordingly would be great.
[19:26:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: At least give the tarp cool LEDs right?
[19:26:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Ugh, let's not talk about LED clothing, please. Too soon. 
[19:26:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Is it inappropriate to suggest IC ways to encourage the use of disguises to do crime in this discussion?
[19:26:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I've seen a bunch of other items in the game that seem to focus very narrowly on specific body part disguising, the poncho is just so all encompassing that I am not surprised it's leading to such issues.
[19:26:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Hoodie's becoming the new generic disguise meta would be cool.
[19:27:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's actually not really viable, Hek.
[19:27:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: (especially if they don't cover the face)
[19:27:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: This sort of addresses the issues of ponchos topside, as well. 
[19:27:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Because so much security isn't tied to your SIC chip or actual biometrics and tied to your PC bit - most fraud is out of reach.
[19:27:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: if they dont cove the face everyones just gonna walk around with masks like gta rp lol
[19:27:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: Disguised crime isn't viable? Or discussing it now isn't viable?
[19:27:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: i think the idea is that you shouldn't have something as ubiquitous as a shroud be just as powerful as something that people build characters into through stats and skills like wigs and contacts? Not that we should get rid of them.
[19:28:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in Plebe's general direction.
[19:28:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Shrouds are just plain broken.
[19:28:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: They're a leftover from the first disguise object ever made.
[19:28:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: I do feel like, you shouldn't even be able to use disguises without enough skill (like most other tools), or stack disguises without enough skill. The skill gate should be way way higher. So we stop living in poncho town.
[19:28:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We have progressed beyond them.
[19:28:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Damn everyone in masks is like thematic as hell though! Bring on the Curse Cat holographic N95 masks.
[19:28:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The disguise code otherwise is brilliant and I think the quest is...
[19:29:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I will say: If there's going to be a change to disguises along the lines of no ponchos, then there needs to be a really serious discussion about UE/STAT refunds. Because I know a lot of characters have dumped a shitload of UE into stats specifically for that one skill. 
[19:29:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If all your ponchos became hoodies tomorrow. How mad would you be?
[19:29:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: IF a robust disguise system was more easily in place then ponchos would not be needed.
[19:29:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Right now Reefer, mad as heck.
[19:29:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to ReeferMadness]: I'd want a refund of at least 3 chy per poncho
[19:29:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Masks is kind of thematic, there seems to be a ton of disease in this game world!
[19:29:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: 3K chy
[19:29:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Geez
[19:29:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: I'm super new (in the grand scheme of Sindome), but knowing that ponchos were the first disguise item makes sense. I am imagining a smaller player base squished together in Red. Players need to be able to do conflict in "new" ways. Ponchos get introduced. All of a sudden players who were on the sidelines jump back into the fight.
[19:30:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: We still desperately need to address current state. 
[19:30:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Hot take. Remove disguise skill softs from the game. 
[19:30:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, we can change topics when Slither gets back.
[19:30:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Current state if what?
[19:30:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I'll bet the conversation gets extended again. I still want us all to go around sharing what cooperative competition means to each of us at some point!
[19:30:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: I thought that Reefer was summarizing so that we could address current state.
[19:31:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: We should talk about AV rapelling.
[19:31:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Not sure I'd be mad, Reefer. But people can walk to a store and buy ten different outfits to accomplish the same thing with a hoodie that they could with a poncho. To some extent. 
[19:31:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in crashdown's general direction.
[19:31:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think skillsofts are fine, Fopsy, but their should be only 6. 2 of each quality.
[19:31:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: The kind of disguises I'd like to see are like... doing a digital scan of someone's face then using tech to generate a temporary mask to match their features, replacing their nakeds with your own. Allowing you to frame someone, but the mask eventually melts away through use, the nakeds fading away.
[19:31:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There is AV repelling. 
[19:31:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Amiga]: Or cutting off someone's face and wearing it as a mask, mwahaha
[19:31:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: scramble suit scramble suit scramble suit
[19:31:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think limiting the amount of skillsofts would just lead to a few people hoarding all of them.
[19:31:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yeah there is tons of themely options for it.
[19:32:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Every item in-game is already finite.
[19:32:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So if x amount of y is on the grid more won't spawn, I believe.
[19:32:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Even shitbergs, heh
[19:32:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay, back.
[19:32:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: wb
[19:32:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: God damn, Svetlana. Sadistic mfer.
[19:33:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: In my mind disguise as a whole could use a revisit. Like, what if we could get digital scrambler clothing that jams cameras from seeing your display name and shortdesc, but you couldn't use a disguise with it, you know? There's so many other, better options out there. 
[19:33:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I hate the shitbergs. 
[19:33:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana snickers at RatchetEffect.
[19:33:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I'm guessing that number is higher than six, though. Which is almost the same as removing them entirely.
[19:33:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Shitburgs need the delete key. 
[19:33:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Right on Talon.
[19:33:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: ...well to the former.
[19:33:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I'm really wary of the expectation of complex new coded features.
[19:33:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Focus people :)
[19:33:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: I do hate Shitbergs too, they kind of mess with topside crime.
[19:33:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We need simple solutions.
[19:33:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at GhostInTheMachine.
[19:33:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Agreed. 
[19:33:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: I have a suggestion on how to thematically drive the use of more wigs and contacts. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to discuss IC strategies here though. What do you think? Can I share?
[19:34:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I say go for it
[19:34:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): As long as you aren't sharing specific IC information, it should be fine.
[19:34:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: If you don't think it is appropriate for the public, then you can always xhelp it.
[19:34:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: People aren't using wigs/contacts for topside crime? Where else do you use them?
[19:34:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I'm going to post the Poncho thread to the bgbb for us to continue on there.
[19:35:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There's no real reason for them to exist now that it's A-OK to just walk around everywhere in a trashbag topside.
[19:35:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I strongly disagree with that. 
[19:35:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: I would like to see senior gangers throwing a wig or a ski mask or some simple disguise option at lowbies and telling them to go do crime topside. Just like those cheesy, bad "bank robber" disguises in the movies. Rubber masks. Long ratty haired wigs. Stuff like that.
[19:35:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Ponchos aren't allowed anywhere off the streets on gold. And not at all on Green.
[19:35:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'm not against adding more disguises, but that system has had a LOT of work put into it over the years and I'm not convinced simply adding more disguise options is going to fix any of the problems people have stated. I can see limiting ponchos, adding penalities, making them not stack with other disguises, limiting how high a disguise score you can get with them.
[19:35:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Ponchos are allowed on Green.
[19:35:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Ratchet, you need to get with the times buddy. 
[19:35:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek points at crashdown.
[19:36:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I like being a Suspicious Shrouded Individual on Green
[19:36:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I must've missed the green change. Mb. Still. That they can't be used inside is huge. 
[19:36:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I mean they can, corpsec might just get suspicious of you
[19:36:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: They can be used everywhere. 
[19:36:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Ponchos can be used inside. Now not everywhere may allow it on corporate property, but they can be used inside.
[19:36:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Jesus mfing christ. I am seriously behind the times, yes.
[19:36:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Not being used inside is not a rule, it's something corporations decided to enforce, that is player driven.
[19:36:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Then I agree with Talon there.
[19:37:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: However you can't use the bank unless you take your disguise off
[19:37:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Ok. Three threads...
[19:37:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): A judge can stop you and be like identify yourself, if they want, but it's not against the law ICly to be disguised.
[19:37:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay, let's move off shrouds / disguise.
[19:37:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[19:37:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Yeah. And stopping random people for no reason is edging on smallworlding. 
[19:37:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What does cooperative competition mean for each of you?
[19:38:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: OKAY!
[19:38:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Well, suspicious is definitely subjective.
[19:38:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Anyway.
[19:38:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: 1) Ponchos. 2) Actually Biometrics/SIC Security vs stuff tied to your PC bit 3) New Non-Combatants getting introduced to conflict -> bgbb
[19:39:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Cooperative Competition means being mindful that other players are telling a story as well. Characters might be in competition with each other, but we are all cooperatively working together to create a bad ass "cyberpunk" world via cooperative story telling.
[19:39:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I will repost mine; to me the idea is that I try to give back as much as was given to me, and not go overboard to try to ruin someones entire play time here over being crossed. Giving back in PvP in fair measures and fun measures as best as I can. I don't know what a lot of that means yet in specific mechanics, but that's how I imagine it.
[19:39:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): also for the record, the entire 'no shrouds on gold thing' which was being enforced by WJF, was player driven. A player judge made the rule temporarily a long time ago, and it got passed down and passed down and became 'law'. As is the way of things.
[19:39:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Cooperative competition is playing the game in a way that is themely, while still ensuring everyone has fun. Because this is a game, and the point of the game is to have fun. Not to try and make a player question why they are even playing Sindome, because you are bleeding over your little IC relationship. Utterly dominating someone while giving them no chance at reprisal or even any RP is the exact antithesis of cooperative competition. I nearly quit because of that bullshit. And if you knew anything about my previous character, you know that's saying a lot.
[19:39:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): but it's been at least a year since that was a thing
[19:39:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I believe Cooperative Competition is a social contract to create story of strife and drama with your fellow players with the empathy to create a worthwhile experience for everyone involved.
[19:39:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: It's all about telling a story,  yes. Telling your character's story, being a part of other ppl's story, part of the narrative of our world
[19:40:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: For me, and this is just me, cooperative competition encompasses the whole game. I want to play the game and I want to help people play the game. I think it's important to take in a few things to try to play with cooperative competition and making stuff fun/enjoyable for others. 1. Understanding when a person needs you to back off. not a character, but the player behind the character.
[19:40:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Cooperateive competition to me means being inclusive, creating stories that play to each other's strengths while also not just sticking to theme - but trying to create something new with it.  I think it also means helping one another 'get gud' so there is more competition in general.
[19:41:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): *nods* Anyone else?
[19:41:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: It's really important, for me, not to impose yourself on a person over and over because at some point their life becomes consumed with your story that it prevents them from playing out their story.
[19:42:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Sorry I have more had to do something.
[19:42:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: You can be an absolute monster to a person, people or faction IC, but you also need to pick them back up afterwards. Directly, indirectly, doesn't matter. Help your enemies as much as you would a friend. 
[19:42:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I actually wildly disagree with Crashdown.
[19:42:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): These are all amazing. Thank you for writing them up. Is anyone opposed to me capturing these with your BGBB names and putting them in a help file on the subject?
[19:43:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: A lot of you are afraid to take leaps and sometimes it takes an insane amount of threats to get you too.
[19:43:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: 2. Recognizing that you don't need to get involved in every other story going on. Even the larger public ones. Sometimes your presence can overwhelm a story and prevent others from having their moment. 
[19:43:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: But then afterward you realize just what you've done and want more.
[19:43:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Oh wow! It would be an honor haha
[19:43:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's true that sometimes people need to walk over the coals to find out that things aren't really so scary. 
[19:43:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Reefer I love you but sometimes people gotta understand that they might be threatening a person 1x a day but that person also might be getting 5x more threats/rp stuff from other people. Sometimes people do need a chance to breathe.
[19:44:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think part of that cooperation should be lifting them up in some way, yeah. You don't have to ICly or OOCly explain that you're lifting someone up though. Turning someone into a tool to use is a lifting them up, for example, but might leave them bitter for more rp. 
[19:44:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: But you're paying them in the meantime, and they're learning.
[19:44:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Crashdown I think you mentioned in xooc once that if you play a role in bringing someone down you should also have at least some responsiblity for helping them recover afterwards?
[19:44:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in RatchetEffect's general direction.
[19:44:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: For sure. That's a good point.
[19:44:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine: As an example of when cooperative competitive seems to fail, in my experience is during 'interrogation rp'. I don't like torture RP, and I find most players won't cooperate during interrogations. They just rather not talk, not cooperate. No matter, if you are trying to give them out to generate more RP. Which ends up in player vatting and no further RP.
[19:44:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Yes I think so svetlana. Even if it's through your PC directly but hiring someone else/events.
[19:44:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in crashdown's general direction.
[19:45:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Personally - I like working in pairs/groups way more than the me against the world, too. Although for short bursts that's ok. I'm discovering that this game is really difficult to enjoy when your faction empties out completely. That's part of the cooperation to me too, being ok with elevating someone else for a while and not trying to be center stage all the time.
[19:45:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Turning enemies into allies is one of the most rewarding feelings you can have in the game, but it requires open-mindedness and bleed control on both sides. 
[19:45:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in TalonCzar's general direction.
[19:45:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I agree with ghost on that. It's one of the most frustrating things about the gamespace in my experience. Because a no sell on various other forms of pressure leads to the inevitable response of, 'then my only option is to kill you until you comply'.
[19:45:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Burn the world down around someone, but offer them an alternative world to step into.
[19:45:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Being a mentor to others is also cooperative competition. Even just by virtue of showing new characters what is possible in the world. 
[19:45:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Being expected to be responsible for someone else's enjoyment is too high an ask of players' time and energy, for a game that demands a lot of it. It can be an ideal for some to strive for, and make for great roleplayers, but I don't think people should expect that by default.
[19:46:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Hek]: Beautifully said, wow.
[19:46:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: But that is the foundation of fighting back against smallworlding and being meta with disguise, isn't it, 0x1mm?
[19:46:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Ghost, feel free to local OOC interrogation or torture stuff. I'm one of the people who just asks forthright OOCly before engaging and usually just handwave the scene and say what happened. 
[19:46:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: The same concept applies.
[19:46:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to RatchetEffect]: Do you think this is because of people no-selling other forms of consequence?
[19:46:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to svetlana]: Thanks. Some of the best roleplay I have had here was a variation on that theme. "You're playing for the wrong team. Wise up. Here's how..."
[19:47:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think we should all be responsible for fostering an entertaining and exciting environment. We all sign up to 'play our corner.'
[19:47:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The concept might be similar but the investment is different. The game is already pretty hard taking care of just our own enjoyment.
[19:47:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: The 'every man's enjoyment purely for himself' is in my opinion what encourages chain-vatting and heavy-handed RP.
[19:47:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Yeah, I'll ooc consent on that first, but I won't shy away from rping torture if it's agreed upon.
[19:47:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: and I would argue in turn that it'd be easier if we also all looked out for each other's enjoyment. Because then we all begin to understand when to pull back or give space on an OOC level.
[19:47:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: And vice versa. I'm not always the torturer. Lol
[19:48:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana snickers at RatchetEffect.
[19:48:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I agree with Adea.
[19:48:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think everyone has to be responsible for their own fun, as a baseline, because what someone else finds fun I may not be able or interested in providing.
[19:48:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: 0x1mm, I do feel like chasing your own dreams and goals are a bit of a mousewheel at times, and it sorta sucks. 
[19:48:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: That's right. But that extends out, which is what I'm trying to say. I might enjoy playing tic-tac toe.
[19:48:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: But if I force Talon to play tic-tac toe with me every day or 4x a week.
[19:48:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @Svetlana I think that's a huge part of it yes. I tend to really dislike killing people over and over because they won't comply with other forms of pressure. 
[19:48:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: And talon likes tic-tac toe but maybe doesn't love tic-taco toe that might start to weight on Talon the player.
[19:48:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: And it's an overwhelming response in my xp, that people do no-sell everything and anything else.
[19:49:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: RIght- but if you are chain vatting without RP then you are going to make someone quit the game. Which has happened. 
[19:49:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think it's a bit of both, 0x. Sure, we have to be creative and take initiative. But keeping in mind the 'bigger picture' is important too. We play in a community. Otherwise, we might as well just load up a 1P on Steam and forget about MOOs.
[19:49:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's part of the current state problem, Spooky.
[19:49:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I am a bit stuck on knowing what someone doesn't OOC enjoy if they're still participating ICly. 
[19:50:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: If someone isn't having fun, they have to adjust themselves, not blame others for not entertaining them. It can be an ideal to provide a lot of fun to one another, but it's tough to fight battles and make money and run businesses and plan events and all the rest, and still be expected to cater to everyone else on top of it. It can be an ideal but I don't think every player should expect everyone else to be there to support them, personally.
[19:50:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to RatchetEffect]: I feel like eventually people sort of figure out if for example Character X makes for a good RP partner for more intense scenes while Character Y always no-sells, and then they can seek out Character X for more RP? or is that just sth I do
[19:50:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: And if I try to force talon to play tic-tac toe with me over and over, then that starts to weigh down and talon can't go play ping pong, which they may -love-. It's not about supporting people.
[19:50:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: It's about understanding when to insert yourself.
[19:50:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in crashdown's general direction.
[19:50:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: And when to let people play out their stories.
[19:50:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @JakeyBoy you don't always get the choice to participate in conflict if someone has it out for you. Your option is to try to manage, or quit the game. And some people enjoy the game enough to try to deal with it, unpleasant as it is.
[19:50:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: How can you adjust yourself 0x if you aren't getting any information? Just not go outside? 
[19:50:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: And I think a lot of players end up with hurt feelings they didn't get a big story around their death, because they thought that was the minimum expectation.
[19:51:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Use a poncho you think shouldn't exist? 
[19:51:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Or rather, you don't get the choice to -not- participate in conflict.
[19:51:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I've not had any RP forced on me before in a way that I felt it was unmanageable. Maybe I am just not experienced enough for this conversation, sorry.
[19:51:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: Your voice matters:)
[19:51:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Was that question directed to me, Spooky? 
[19:51:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think not getting a choice about participating in conflict is part of the game. Everyone has agency. Even the person who wants to rob you.
[19:51:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: @0x I don't get the sense that anyone is suggesting that we take responsibility for other people's fun and enjoyment. What I am reading is people suggesting that we keep in mind what other characters / players are getting out of our actions. What is the story from their perspective? What are their options and are any of those entertaining or otherwise an opportunity to grow their character?
[19:51:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Ok but what if it's players who have been around over twice as long as you using the various IC tracking means to hunt you down because they are online for like 16 hours a day?
[19:51:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: You absolutely do have a way to avoid conflict. You pay your rent up for a couple of weeks and go find another game to play.
[19:52:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @svetlana In scenarios where the no-selling player leaves you alone, sure. But that doesn't usually happen.
[19:52:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I think violence is good. 
[19:52:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think you're looking at it from too combative a perspective, 0x. The idea of 'community fun' isn't necessarily about death and aggression. It's about proactively generating a stimulating and interesting environment.
[19:52:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Keeping it in mind, definitely. I just think new players especially should have a realistic view on what competition sometimes means.
[19:52:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I'll try from a different perspective.
[19:52:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: That can be the case whether you're shooting someone in the face, writing the next hit series and hiring background extras, or organising a pub crawl through Gold Sector.
[19:52:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Let me just log in for some EU while siccung people in Hab X? NO THANKS
[19:52:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: When you join any multiplayer game you are part of a community, and being part of a community is a social contract to abide by kindergarten level hospitality to other players. If it's ruining your fun to practice empathy towards other players on an OOC level, then I don't know what to say. That doesn't mean never ruffling anyones feathers, it just means not ruining everyone else's fun in search of your own.
[19:53:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I don't think these things are bad, they're great. Cooperative storytelling is awesome. But sometimes it WON'T be cooperative, and I think players do need to recognize that.
[19:53:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: It's about saying 'What can I do to provide opportunities for others and make new connections, whether friendly or adversarial?'
[19:53:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at Adea.
[19:53:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: +1 Batko. 
[19:53:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I agree with Batko.
[19:53:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Sometimes you have to kill someone. Or 'punish' them. And sometimes they won't give you a lot back. Even if you try other ways to engage with them. At that point as a player I recognize maybe they just don't like RPing with me. And that's okay. I'm not for everyone, everyone isn't for me. So I pull back from engaging with that persont o let them go and do their own stuff unless my character absolutely has to come back into their orbit.  I also agree with batko.
[19:54:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: To add to what I think @Slither and @0x are saying... New characters and especially new players aren't really equipped to be in charge of their own destiny. It takes a certain amount of being subject to / influenced by the RP and actions of others in the beginning.
[19:54:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Exactly, batko. We operate as part of a community, which is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards cliques, anti-social behaviour, resource hoarding, and apartment dwelling.
[19:54:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: When someone or someones are actively destroying the enjoyment of the game for the player in efforts to gain IC that is not behaviour that should be 'adjusted to' ever. 
[19:54:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I don't disagree, I'm just saying, there is the ideal and then there's what actually happens.
[19:54:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel like a good example of what NOT to do is - Kill immigrants just because they chose the wrong bar to get their measly weekly income from.
[19:54:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think 0x has a strong point here, that I want to acknowledge. The expectation is not that everything you do is centered on someone else's fun.
[19:55:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: That was my experience at least. My character was caught in the crossfire between major factions and couldn't do anything about it. But as a player I learned a lot about the dynamics in the game. How factions fight. How conflict plays out. etc.
[19:55:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Unless you're a staffer. In which case, start juggling and making me laugh! =P
[19:55:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I can't hear these stories and not just immediately think 'Community Harm.' 
[19:56:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: "Hello new person, get out of your RP area or I'll kill you." Fuck off and go die in a fire. 
[19:56:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I just genuinely think that you have to make a lot of assumptions about someone elses enjoyment of the RP unless they're oocly telling you how they feel about it. Is that something that happens a lot?
[19:56:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Not EVERYTHING, but what about trying to make someone OOC give up? Is that ok?
[19:56:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine has left the channel.
[19:56:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @crashdown I definitely understand that. And sometimes it's necessary from an IC point to step back from RP with another because it doesn't make IC sense for the character. I particularly hate those times, when I think I need to ICly quit rping with someone despite liking the rp oocly. 
[19:56:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't know that there are people actively killing new characters on a regular basis on a whim. I haven't seen that type of behavior in a long time.
[19:56:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think the community is very good about giving people a Withmore Welcome, while making it fun.
[19:56:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Uh, no Slither. 
[19:56:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: Hello new person. I see you have not chosen the route of ganger or medic. I hope you really like being told to come back in six months and maybe someone will have something for you to maybe do.
[19:57:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It very much is a thing. 
[19:57:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I don't think anyone's take away is that everything you do is for someone else to have fun. The point that I have seen people trying to make, and that I have been trying to make, is that it's your responsibility to realize when you are taking it too far.
[19:57:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: But I don't think anyone was really saying that, slither. What I was trying to relay is understanding as a player when to give people space and chances to do their own stuff, play out their own stories. It isn't about everything we do making stuff fun for other people, but rather not consuming the majority of their playtime, playstyle, their story with what we want to do. And yeah, ratchet. 
[19:57:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think like everything, there needs to be a balance between personal and community fun. We need not be purely self-interested on an OOC level, but we can be sometimes.
[19:57:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Adea has it.
[19:57:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Totally agree Batko.
[19:58:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Totally agree as well Crashdown.
[19:58:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Or that sometimes it doesn't have to be about you.
[19:58:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I get the sense everyone is kind of imagining a scenario in which they're the one with the means and ability to choose what the outcomes will be, and I agree players are reponsible in those situations for making them interesting for someone.
[19:58:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Yeah Plebe, that's it too.
[19:59:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] The discussion of 'What Cooperative Competition Means, and How it Works in a PvP Game' has been extended for another hour.
[19:59:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think it's important to know when to step back and give people space, or let them recover (ICly or OOCly).
[19:59:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: This ties into the win/loss mentality that staff try to push here.
[19:59:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I do not think it is acceptable to try to make someone OOCly quit or OOCly give up. If that's your goal, please leave.
[19:59:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: If we were all perfectly happy to give space when needed, and let players thrive. New or old, then we'd all be winning.
[19:59:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I don't believe that anyone who plays the game today isn't capable of being self-aware enough to know when they're being a bastard OOC. It's just that some people just DGAF, they keep doing the shit, and we keep talking about the same problem over and over and over. 
[19:59:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I'm definitely talking about what I would call more high level conflict, with higher stakes.
[19:59:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I truly don't believe that is anyone's goal though. Maybe I'm idealistic.
[20:00:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): At least anyone who's playing the game currently.
[20:00:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: It certainly seemed that way.
[20:00:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I don't think it's because you're Idealistic, Slither. Or Neon, or the rest of the staff. I think it's because you're not aware of the problem. 
[20:00:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I am just saying- its a game. Games are meant to be fun. Dying and murder are good. just give some RP after. 
[20:00:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I try to lift players up while making them useful to me. Or making them remember me enough to want to come back. 
[20:01:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): This is the balancing act. I think if you're going to ghost someone, especially over and over, you owe that person an interesting and compelling story.
[20:01:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Yes, for sure.
[20:01:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): If you're going to fuck someone over at their corpie job and get them fired and sent to the mix, you owe that person a story.
[20:01:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: High level conflict should still be a back and forth not a *Kill Bill* hide in a hole for 6 weeks. Only to *Kill Bill* again. 
[20:01:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in spookybiitch's general direction.
[20:01:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Even if that story plays out over weeks or months and you're diong it over the grid or SIC to remain anonymous.
[20:01:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think it's very possible to be a 'ghost' and still drive compelling story for others who know you're behind it.
[20:01:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I agree. @slither
[20:02:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I just remember how hard many of the best players ever went.
[20:02:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I've been RPing for close to 18 years now. In my experience, knowing when to pull a punch or extend a hand is extremely important.
[20:02:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I know first hand you can do it, Reefer. But you're sort of exceptional in that regard. 
[20:02:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Reefer definitely has a lot of experience. But it's also on both sides of things.
[20:03:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think a good thing to remember here, is that we're all storytellers, though only some of us are GMs (staff).
[20:03:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I've permed at least 2 probably 3 of his characters, with my character. Either directly or indirectly.
[20:03:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: +1 ratchet
[20:03:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I love to burn bright.
[20:03:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: If you've ever played a live tabletop, you know that the storyteller accounts for everyone at the table.
[20:03:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Yes. What we're essentially doing is collaborative storytelling.
[20:03:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: An interactive live action novel being written by everyone at once.
[20:03:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: So account for everyone at the digital table here when you're storytelling. Simple enough.
[20:04:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So, I think my takeaway from a lot of this.
[20:04:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Anyone punching down has a responsibility for sure, punching up or at similar levels where the tiniest edge can change the outcome, I feel like players need to be realistic that it starts being more competitive and less collaborative at that point.
[20:04:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Most if not all factions should a non-violent modus operandi.
[20:04:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: Funny, usually when I hear 'Yes, and then...' but in Sindome its more 'No, fuck you...'
[20:04:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: Is it normal to feel bitter and empty after perming because your opposing party did everything we just said they shouldn't?
[20:04:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Ratchet I think that is one of my problems, I have played primarily TTRP for over two decades. There is an expectation and accountability that you are there to cooperate even if you are in conflict. 
[20:04:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I can get behind that some, Ox.
[20:04:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: 0x1mm That sounds like a 'win at RP' mentality though.
[20:04:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Maybe VS experiments on you. NLM put you on TV doing god knows what, etc. Nothing we all haven't seen before.
[20:05:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): There will always be people who go against the grain, who play too hard, who min / max, who chain kill with no RP. It's the GMs job to try to course correct that when we see it. It's the communities job to try to course correct it too. To show people a better way. To put RP first.
[20:05:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: But I think we should empower more PCs with those 'unorthodox' non-clone death resolutions.
[20:06:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: I am sure that most if not all of you have heard something like this. When I was in my early 20s, an older guy I was RPing with asked me if I wanted to keep being a "roll" player, or if I was going to grow up and be a "role" player. In the context of Sindome, rollplayers are players who just want to smash @stats and skills up against other characters and see who "wins". A roleplayer wants to tell a story and uses the @stats and skills as elements of the story.
[20:06:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I'll admit @fopsy, I've played very little pvp tabletop. The very few times it happened, it turned sour very fast.
[20:06:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: There is winning though, and there's definitely losing.
[20:06:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Wulf, I'm not sure we can really get into the details on here, but if you wanna chat privately, you can email me at slither@sindome.org and we can dig into it deeper.
[20:07:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I disagree with the play to lose mentality, since that just came up. I detailed this in a bgbb a while ago, in fact. 
[20:07:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think when punching down the best thing you can do is talk a big game and then convenient 'forget' about the little guy and move on.
[20:07:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Because you can't have a loser without a winner to make the loss happen.
[20:07:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: @0x I think the collaboration at that point is exactly that you're punching up. Your putting someone seasoned on their toes. That's important too, not just how you go about it.
[20:07:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Is it really 'winning' when you dont give the other side a chance to retaliate? 
[20:07:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: some would argue thats the best way to win
[20:07:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I totally agree Plebe.
[20:07:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Looking for things to do outside of clone death or even violence is ideal when dealing with characters that are vastly below your weight class.
[20:07:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think we may want to see things as being more nuanced and complex than 'winners' and 'losers.'
[20:08:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I agree with adea again.
[20:08:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I actually think it's a good thing to consider regardless of weightclass, batko.
[20:08:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: I mean, why stop at two limbs?
[20:08:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Stepped away for a bit. Man if only people did those things Reefer mentioned, interactions with corps would actually be exciting
[20:08:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I agree, but I mean especially so when you're dealing with new characters and you're an oldbie.
[20:08:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Reefer I love that and have done it a few times. 
[20:08:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think losses occur, but it doesn't mean you're losing. I also think that you have to push for wins, especially in bigger picture goals, if you want to include more people in your rp.
[20:08:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer I made the point maybe a year ago and a few other times that vatting someone should be IC considered bad form. A pack of dogs or hungry rats can vat someone how does that make your max EU combat syndicate monster look if that is what they come up with as a means of operating.
[20:08:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Because if you just lose lose lose, people stop rping and go to the winner.
[20:08:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: The moment we think on an OOC level, 'what can I do to win?' is the moment we stop playing collaboratively.
[20:09:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Perfectly said Adea. 
[20:09:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The problem with a taboo against perming characters out, is you kind of end up where we are now.
[20:09:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: 'What can I do to not constantly lose?'
[20:09:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I don't think that the taboo is enforcing any of the current behaviors.
[20:09:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: If we weren't all thinking about winning, no one would shy at removing ponchos.
[20:10:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: If you don't want to get permed, you can simply not get permed. It's that easy.
[20:10:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the best way too look at it is Sindome is like that fucking wheel of death on the playground.
[20:10:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You jump on, you get flung off, etc.
[20:10:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Short of admin intervention there is really no surefire way to forcibly perm someone.
[20:10:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The goal is to keep it spinning. Faster and Faster.
[20:10:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: For me 'winning' is getting noticed by other players and them pulling me into their plots, me getting them into my plots, etc
[20:10:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Winning and loosing should come down to this 'I got RP fun engaging RP and I enjoyed it' - Win 'I got nothing what so ever and all I got was red text' - lose. 
[20:10:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: To me play to lose isn't explicitly play to lose. It's play fast and loose. Don't overthink things, play in the moment. If you die or it blows up in your face, you've 'lost.' Winning is living to have a story afterwards that's worth telling. 
[20:10:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You will win sometimes but that'll just slow the wheel down.
[20:10:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: And staff intentionally stay out of perm plots.
[20:10:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in svetlana's general direction.
[20:11:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Well, I think Sindome has a lot more potential than that. There are a lot of built-in conflicts. Class competition. Media vs. reality. Humanity. The nature of allegiance and conflict.
[20:11:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods enthusiastically at Adea!
[20:11:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: That's a solid interpretation, Talon. I like that.
[20:11:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to svetlana]: I feel very much the same. Winning to me is logging on and being able to tell a story with other people I enjoy writing with. 
[20:11:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Here for a good time. Not a long time. 
[20:11:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Play to lose, isn't about actively trying to lose, it's about embracing OOC good times, even if your character is having bad times.
[20:11:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: There was a poll awhile ago that was 'what is the point of SD to you?' and there were options like 'Playing to win' and 'Playing to tell a good story' and I think for me telling a good story is the most important part
[20:11:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Maybe it's a question of more frequently weaving those themes into RP than jumping straight to PvP.
[20:12:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Some of the best times I've had are when someone has betrayed my character. Brutal ICly, insanely fun OOCly.
[20:12:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: If you look at most CP media, it's very rarely a point-and-shoot story.
[20:12:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Wulf: I've had great fun getting fucked over before, oocly.
[20:12:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I also hate turning every guided discussion into me babbling about syndicates, but I think how syndicates are handled has a lot to do with how frustration has peaked recently.
[20:12:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): But with a different perspective, that IC betrayal could have been brutal OOC as well. I could have felt OOCly betrayed, or OOCly hurt that my character was hurt, bleed, etc.
[20:12:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Have at least some story behind the PvP. A character isn't PvPing just to smash @stats together. They are PvPing because they are a ganger on their turf. Or they are a debt collector. Or they are a syndicate enforcer who needs to "deliver a message".
[20:13:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I generally can't get plots off the ground due to betrayal or players leaving. Might be why I see it that way. I don't want to lose at generating plot, but it feels like that a lot.
[20:13:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: Years ago we punched down by driving a couple of newish upstarts out into the badlands and showed them a bunch of stuff they'd never seen before and left them at an undisclosed location. We gave them the tools they'd need to get back in one piece and wished them luck. Now they had a story to tell too since they actually did make it back. I think there's lots of ways way more creative than that to be creative and tell stories  rather than just vatting them. 
[20:14:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: From my extremely limited perception, I see syndicates gaining a bit of stability but I'm curious what your take is.
[20:14:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Slither if you were just vatted, then this betrayal character simply ghosted you and gave you zero RP response or anything and you simply had to play 'Well I guess I vatted out best just get on with my life' would it have been as fun? 
[20:14:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: @batko Honestly, the expectation should be similar to corporate players. You don't kill each other unless it's a declared, agreed upon 'open' war. Syndicates don't work when they're murder simulator online:tm:. 
[20:14:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Adea]: Never hesitate to bring up any of those big themes ICly, or have your character embody one of those themes on either side, or have them constantly be pulled between extremes...There's lots of fun ways to bring this into the game
[20:15:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I don't want to reveal a ton of IC info, so I will try and stay vague, but I have seen the same 'in' be recycled three times in a row re: people joining syndicates. Characters are told that the only way to get in, in a time where syndicates are anemic, is that you have to kill another syndicate member of a rival syndicate. That's a pipe dream for 99% of players, and actively pursuing a hit job on someone who is already playing safe takes actual months of full-time job levels of focus on the game to get anywhere.
[20:15:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That's a pretty loaded question fopsy. What RP went into my character being vatted? What RP did I get to engage in afterwards, simply because I vatted? Did I get DCD? Was I worried about getting a clone and not perming? Did I have to call in favors to get to Sense/Net? Who did I get to interact with that I wouldn't have otherwise because I needed to regear, get cyber, and start tracking down my lost gear?
[20:15:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's rough, yeah. 
[20:16:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Slither has a point. The people who come up to help your character after a vat will sometimes surprise you
[20:16:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Key word: sometimes. 
[20:16:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've never been told it requires murdering another syndicate member. I've been demanded of me to have something previously done that's notable enough to warrant my request to join.
[20:16:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I mean in a good way like 'Aww this person cares' rather than a ambush way
[20:17:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Like...they want to know you are someone before they take you. Cause they don't just take anyone.
[20:17:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I'd like syndicates to embrace their corporate identity a little bit more but I feel like a lot of what needs to happen can be explored ICly.
[20:17:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I have seen more interesting and dynamic syndicate recruitment / induction plots be pitched at others in the past, but ever since then I have only ever seen a plain old 'kill x' task that makes or breaks your character. This just makes everyone way more frustrated with PVP. I have seen it happen to at least three other players, mostly contemporary with eachother.
[20:17:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: +1 Reefer
[20:17:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think we're trying to move them in that direction Reefer.
[20:17:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Syndicates should be RP hubs and opportunity hubs stimulating the economy
[20:18:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think in short, the goal there is for them to see that you have generated plot or been involved enough in plot to have been notably important in some way?
[20:18:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Fair response Slither, was unfair to put you on the spot like that. 
[20:18:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: It has been my understanding that it is "good form" to let a character know why they were vatted. I think at the very least we should be @noting why our character vatted another character, or had them vatted (paid someone to do it, etc.)
[20:18:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: So uh.. We're kind of meandering around. Next topic? 
[20:18:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I'll be flat out and say that I have a vision, but I'm way more eager to explore it ICly then post it on the bgbb.
[20:18:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I'm a big fan of Syndicates obviously, but I think if the players are not correct it's better for them to go empty.
[20:19:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The wrong bodies in there drag the whole thing down.
[20:19:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: What is considered a correct player?
[20:19:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Problem is that 'learning' them can take weeks, months, years, even. Can't just have the same 4 vetted people always. 
[20:19:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Also, any one persons personal experience with joining a syndicate or trying to join, is at least somewhat tailored. Major goals like that are never going to be easy. I don't think killing a rival syndicate member is a qualifier in every case. I've actually never heard that specific thing before, might be specific to someones IC circumstance. I agree that we don't want syndicates to be murder simulators. We also don't want to go to the other side of the pendulum where they are never in conflict with each other and just make money and don't have conflict. It's a tough act to balance.
[20:19:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I'm not speaking out of frustration for myself, since I've managed, but I can't imagine how those tasks may drive others insane. So, it's just me saying, maybe we should focus on something other than trying to force PVP to happen, and instead make it happen naturally.
[20:19:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think 'correct' player is something that should be addressed by helping players become 'correct' for a position instead of waiting for the right ones to pop in.
[20:20:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yeeesssss maybe but there has been kind of a trend of burned out players in there.
[20:20:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I view syndicate play as your final lap in Sindome where you either become a legend or die trying.
[20:20:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Oh I think I see what you mean. Agreed.
[20:21:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I disagree 0x1mm and I think that is a very unfair statement of the players in those positions, and previously in those positions.
[20:21:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I'm just offering it as some feedback as a player, Slither, since I have seen the same concept be recycled across three potential recruits. If you haven't heard of that before, I can maybe email you or something, but I can assure you it's basically a standard right now.
[20:21:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): GMs try to guide players in the right direction based on the role they have expressed an interest in, but that often comes into conflict with what they player actually wants to RP their character as. For example, if you are going to wile out and commit a bunch of crimes and calim them on the SIC and create your drama and roleplay in that fashion -- good for you, but you probably aren't going to get into a syndicate playing like that.
[20:21:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The 'correct' player is one who can be empowered and trusted to help tell more stories than they will destroy. I'd compare it directly to the role of Judge PC.
[20:21:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I want unaffiliated people to have a reason to get excited when there's a syndicate war going on - because it means chy, opportunities to prove yourself, to show loyalty, to take advantage of the conflict on both sides, etc. Instead, when there's a syndicate war I personally always dread it because more often than not, it has meant 'I will kill you because you work at Y's bar or are in a SIC key with Y'
[20:21:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Well don't worry I've told all of them that in person at various times.
[20:21:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Sure, email me Batko.
[20:22:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in svetlana's general direction.
[20:22:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think it's true that syndicate positions are very demanding by design, as are some other roles in the game. But I've seen and experienced some brilliant PCs in those positions, none of which have been burned out.
[20:22:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Burnout is a major problem because things can devolve to toxic cesspools quickly and GM intervention to fix things is few and far between (seemingly.) There's also usually a problem of snowballing/winmore syndrome with cells. Everyone wants to play for the winning team, nobody wants to play loser.
[20:22:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: +1, Talon.
[20:22:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in TalonCzar's general direction.
[20:23:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Right, I'm not saying everyone is a burn out. Just that because it was a big goal for so many characters, sometimes people hang on just to get there sort of to say they did it, when it should be the new start line, rather than the finish.
[20:23:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Staff can't involve itself in every IC situation that involves players fighting over the long term, or we're taking away your agency.
[20:23:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: I agree. The "winning team" phenomena is a major one. We could digress down that rabbit hole for the next 24 hours and barely scratch the surface.
[20:24:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Would have to agree with talon on most parts, but there are some that join the losing team too, because some players actually like to lose in an engaging and meaningful way. 
[20:24:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: To Reefers, opinion on correct players for syndi play, absolutely yes. So how do we groom players for that? The ones that want it? Does staff step in to offer guidance? Do the players in the know shift rp to help that player reach the potential for it?
[20:24:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm doing my best not to be toxic here, but there's some pretty obvious things that are consistently wrong with them - the players behind the keyboard. 
[20:24:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to fopsy]: FWIW , it has been my experience that staff does a good job of enticing and enabling characters who chose the "losing team".
[20:25:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in TalonCzar's general direction.
[20:25:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: to hek I have not seen that being the case myself. But I am only one experience of many.
[20:25:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think our syndicate players need help tbh.
[20:26:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Most of them are new-er.
[20:26:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I actually think our current crop of syndicate players are very good, but I think they've also been dealing with some shit for a long time right now and there's been a lot of upheaval in the game as a whole so I imagine they feel a lot of weight on their shoulders to do everything which - yes, they need help right now.
[20:26:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: ANd patience.
[20:26:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And yeah, I think they're all fucking legends to be clear.
[20:26:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I just see the pitfalls and the struggles of being managed by Staff with limited syndicate experience.
[20:26:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): One thing that's difficult is balancing all factions.
[20:26:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Can I suggest a simple solution I think would help? 
[20:26:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I agree with Crashdown. It has not been that long since the dust settled from what I would personally call a massive clusterfuck. 
[20:26:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): There are like 20+ factions in the game. Be it ganger/syndicate/law/corps
[20:27:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes balance is a double-edged sword because it can level things out but it can also produce strange outcomes.
[20:27:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): And every single one of them needs to feel special in some way.
[20:27:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: This sounds very close to what we were discussing last time, honestly, about veteran or higher-ranking characters sending varied RP opportunities down the chain.
[20:27:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to fopsy]: If you aren't already doing it, I highly suggest @noting IC-Goals. Keep them simple. @note IC-Actions taken towards those goals. Try to involve other characters in the goal.
[20:27:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've personally attempted to join a few times in the past, and doing it while knowing I have no idea how to effectively create story at that level. I was hoping to learn while in the role, but again, I'm sure I'd not be great in the position. That's why I'm asking the question.
[20:27:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I have no idea why Syndicate stacking is allowed. 
[20:27:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): that's a tall order if it's just on staff to drive that. so I typically try to put systems and policies in place that create a positive feedback loop. But it's often very difficult to see over a short period of time, how effective that is. You need a lot of data, and a bunch of different players / play styles to tell if a change is working or not.
[20:27:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Hek I note so much I Got told to note less so don't think that's an issue :) 
[20:28:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: you learn fast on the job. 
[20:28:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to fopsy]: Fair
[20:28:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: What is "syndicate stacking" ?
[20:28:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: my attempt at joining a faction and making notes toward it amounted to nothing at all, to be honest
[20:28:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: One cell having 3 people and another having one. 
[20:28:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Generally hopefuls are coming up with their faction as close allies.
[20:28:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: And having some players, even if they aren't in that role, that can help you learn is magical. 
[20:28:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The way it's supposed to be balanced out, isn't. 
[20:28:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Gang stacking too
[20:28:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): we are a bit tied to past RP in terms of who can join what.
[20:29:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): also, in many cases, it's better to have one fully stacked group than three with one person in them
[20:29:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods thoughtfully
[20:29:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: is it when one syndicate essentially only has one actual member but in reality acts like it has four or five due to non-faction loyals?
[20:29:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Hard disagree. 
[20:29:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Since @Slither brought it up, the 20+ factions are simply too many for a player base that average ~20-30 active RPers at any given time of day.
[20:29:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Is it?
[20:29:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I agree, it's to many.
[20:30:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Three people in once cell and one person in one cell means that the lone player gets to play SD the cellphone simulator game, and stop existing publicly. 
[20:30:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Who's okay with me shuttering their faction? Raise your hand.
[20:30:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I don't think all of those factions should have PCs but they should exist.
[20:30:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[20:30:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Different types of PCs come and go - exploring new factions is one of the best parts of SD.
[20:30:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: i'm already incredibly sad at the one that was removed recenetly :(
[20:30:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: If I think it's helpful for the game, I'm all for it, but maybe I'm the exception to the rule. 
[20:30:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: whats shuttering?
[20:30:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: That's the challenge. Nobody wants to give up "their" faction. Understandably given the long history and ongoing stories that they have.
[20:30:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Closing it. Removing you from it.
[20:30:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to batko]: Closing down. Taking away.
[20:30:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Closing it out, Batko. 
[20:30:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Turning it NPC only.
[20:30:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @Hek, the thread we talked about earlier. It's actually pinned near the top of Game Problems. http://sindo.me/BJdZ7Y3ao
[20:31:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to RatchetEffect]: Thank you sir.
[20:31:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: *Raises Hand*
[20:31:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: What would you do with the displaced people? 
[20:31:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): People got REALLY upset when we moved NeoTrans to PRI.
[20:31:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): and that was just a MOVE for the most part.
[20:31:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think it's the responsibility of the faction to staff itself, in addition to the other things it does. Building coalitions is part of that gameplay in my mind. I don't mind personally if there are a bunch of empty ones, that makes room for ambitious up and comers who want to go their own way.
[20:31:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Is there something driving the player population to fluctuate a lot recently? There was single digits on the other night I think and the past few days struggling to break 20. 
[20:31:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: With the chance to open back up in the future. But with all things, stuff ebbs and flows. Some of the stacked factions won't be stacked forever or even long. It happens. I think when you're a stacked faction it's important to pull some punches sometimes and let the competition build up. No need, IMO, to hoard all the assets/CIs, etc.
[20:31:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Time of year, recent bannings and suspensions, people losing interest when their regular RP partners weren't around.
[20:31:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: a lot of people were breaking the rules and got banned
[20:32:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: In the past week?
[20:32:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: @0x1mm Nobody wants to join the shit team. And your job can't just be to make the golden path for someone, because then they wind up woefully unequipped to deal with reality when they arrive. 
[20:32:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: It was pointed out this past week a lot of people are getting their nostalgia on pretending to be wizards.
[20:32:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Slither, you didn't answer my question. 
[20:32:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: No in the past 6 months... 
[20:32:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Sorry svtelana, I'm trying to keep up with everyone! Lots of scroll.
[20:32:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I disagree about no one wants to join the shit team. There are definitely people out there who want to join low-staffed factions so they can have the opportunity to show what they're capable of.
[20:32:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in crashdown's general direction.
[20:32:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I remember the forum posts about that, I meant more specifically in the past week. Wizards?
[20:32:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It's true that everyone wants to join the winning team, but winning teams almost always started with one player.
[20:33:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Sometimes you just start doing stuff and end up with a faction.
[20:33:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Although I think Crashdown said it better.
[20:33:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: It's ok! the scroll is super crazy
[20:33:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: There's a new Harry Potter video game out.
[20:33:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: So maybe ppl are spending their time playing that instead of SD
[20:33:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Oh! Interesting. Ok
[20:33:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It depends on the faction and the person. If you're in TERRA, there is no where for you to go. If you're at PRI and you burned all your bridges already with NLM and VS -- no where for you to go. If you're a ganger you ain't joining another gang. If you're a Triad you ain't joining the Yakuza in most cases. So we have to create IC reasoning to move someone to a faction where they probably don't belong in terms of IC history and probably won't be welcome. That isn't fun.
[20:33:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Correct. 
[20:34:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): those are just examples, not me saying that's the factions we're considering closing for now.
[20:34:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to JakeyBoy]: FWIW , IRL work and life have been kicking my butt these last few weeks and limiting my online time. That's how these online games are. Ebbs and flows.
[20:34:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: That said, I don't have a problem with syndicates getting shuttered either, as long as there's openings around, or if someone can re-open things if it seems like there is a need.
[20:34:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: This is too complex for me to discuss here. 
[20:34:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: So they are just SOL even if they been in that position for a while? 
[20:35:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I have a long history of making IC excuses for not joining the winning team. Maybe find someone you don't like thats on the other side and refuse on principle. Or maybe you don't see your character making a name for themselves among the rank and file present on the winning side. Something like that.
[20:35:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Out of curiosity, not wanting to go off on to much of a tangent but we are talking factions. Where does the Park and Heven sit in all this?
[20:35:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Are we allowed to mention things like the Corporate Pride Initiative? My understanding is that was meant to foster more cross-corporate interaction, but unfortunately a small number of PCs were instructing people to actively avoid others.
[20:35:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think a focus on driving plot from the syndicates down would go a long way to driving game activity.
[20:35:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That's why it's a difficult situation spooky. Cause we have to consider every person in the factions history, and find them a landing place, and try to make them happy-- because we're making an OOC decision to shutter a faction, even if it doesn't make IC sense. That's why it's really tough to make decisions like that. On staff, and on the players involved.
[20:35:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I feel like that was a situation in which we were being encouraged by staff to go outside our own circles, but the atmosphere was still being stifled.
[20:36:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Back to cooperative competition. I would like to see the Mix cooperatively competing with topside. Take 95% of that Mixer on Mixer angst and violence and channel it topside. Mixers cooperating. In other words, more stereotypical "cyberpunk" type theme.
[20:36:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana grins at Hek.
[20:36:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: That's the intent of CPI, yeah, Adea. The other stuff you described is unfortunate and there was IC pushback to it but I do think some damage was done.
[20:36:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Hek]: Yes plssss
[20:36:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I agree, Hek, and I think that should be funnelled via the syndicates.
[20:36:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Still want to discuss current state. Maybe another time. 
[20:37:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Reefer- just you wait. LOL
[20:37:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in ReeferMadness's general direction.
[20:37:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The saying goes: No plot survives first contact with a player.
[20:37:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: I agree 100%
[20:37:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: CPI is a really great stage to be pro corporate while also humiliating your competition and doing it with a smile on your face.
[20:37:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: The current state of what specifically?
[20:37:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The game.
[20:37:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: On the theme of Mix to topside. Can Topside stop being sooooo dang fuzzy and friendly with each other?
[20:37:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I agree, Svetlana, but I think they need a reason too. 
[20:37:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): A huge amount of the game is driven by players. Admin can only push so hard on things. If a player decides 'fuck CPI' there is only so much we can do without taking away their agency to play their character.
[20:38:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Topside is not friendly to one another, Fopsy. 
[20:38:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: It was honestly pretty disconcerting on an OOC level. I have to admit some frustration here. I listened when everyone said, in the last conversation, that they wanted more outstretched hands and RP opportunities. I tried pretty hard to make sure I was doing that and honestly got very little interest in return.
[20:38:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: We need more inter-class cooperative competition. Corporations should hire mixers to take down their rival corps...
[20:38:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: They should. And they do. I think there's an argument there should be more of it, but it does happen.
[20:38:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I said it earlier but it's been really hard maybe its not an everyone thing but to be a service mixer who works at a corporation and being hated and threatened and kept out of the mix for just that. Even when actively trying to be pro-mix.
[20:38:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Adea. I felt that in my soul. 
[20:39:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I wish there could be some evolution on that dynamic.
[20:39:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to JakeyBoy]: Yeah I've been trying to push the Mix to 'accept' service mixers but some ppl are set in their ways and it's frustrating
[20:39:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: So I don't really know what I can personally do except for 'keep trying,' but it's very tiring when a general response to the things people are saying they desperately want is 'eh.'
[20:39:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think once conflict is being actively pushed from a few factions a lot of this will be turned on its head.
[20:39:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to svetlana]: @crashdown is right. It happens. I think the game would benefit from it happening more.
[20:39:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I would love to see more player driven corporate espionage and such. It doesn't have to be earth shattering. Hire some mixer to get a job at a rival corp, pay for their clothes, give them some IC training on how they should interview, then use them to get IC info on that corp -- even if it's totally useless OOCly, you're still driving RP and you can do a lot with a plot like that.
[20:39:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Topside is scuffed at the moment, which is why you're probably not getting a bunch of traction on anything. 
[20:39:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It's just taking a while to setup.
[20:40:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at Slither.
[20:40:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: YES
[20:40:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'd realy like Mixer characters to stop hating on service mixers.
[20:40:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I think the fact mixers are hating on service mixers insanely ironic.
[20:40:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What is that accomplishing from a theme perspective? Or an RP perspective?
[20:40:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I mean, players want Mix v Topside, that is going to be a part of it. Part of the reason I hate that dynamic.
[20:40:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: How in the hell are we supposed to do that when there is as close to zero class movement today as I've ever seen? 
[20:41:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think people are just short sighted to the potential of a service mixer asset.
[20:41:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): You can't take down topside from below. You take it down from the inside.
[20:41:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: +1 for less hate directed at service Mixers.
[20:41:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Hate them all you want but they're pure $$$.
[20:41:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: If someone wants to be angry at me as a service mixer, I'd prefer them try to force me to do something to their benefit with my role as a service mixer and make some RP with it. Maybe not even force, but offer me something in exchange.
[20:41:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel like ppl don't realize that service mixers are literally...janitors? It doesn't imply any sort of loyalty to the corp in question
[20:41:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I'm of the opinion that there should be a lot of Mixer-corporate RP going on behind the scenes. If you aren't interacting on either side of the fence then you're missing out on a huge part of the game.
[20:41:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Mix v Topside as a core theme just doesn't produce anything like a realistic society. It was a major plot for years and really stifled some other aspects of the game in my opinion.
[20:42:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So my issue with espionage is that their is not substance too it.
[20:42:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Agreed, 0x.
[20:42:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I would prefer if every mixer assumed that a service mixer employed at a corp was actively working to fuck with that corp or take their money-- if that was the default expectation, then there wouldn't be hate for them. It would be trying to get them involved in your plots. And MAYBE they betray you to their corp, at which point the hate is understandable.
[20:42:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Security requires an ungodly amount of xhelp to bypass and work with.
[20:42:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And even then if I get to ROSCO or NLM's TV guide, what can I even do that's allowed?
[20:43:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Adea]: About two years ago that sort of mix-corp cooperation RP was severely discouraged by various players to a toxic extent and I feel like it still has lasting effects.
[20:43:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Agree with Reefer massively. Some buildings have layers upon layers of biometric doors. and exactly as Reefer says again regards what can you actually do.
[20:43:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Hence my post on meaningful building security. We need to close the espionage and terrorism loop so CorpSec has something to do and terrorists can achieve.
[20:43:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to Adea]: Even though there's been great progress towards reversing that 
[20:43:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: You all want there to be this espionage action but there's basically zero turnover. People aren't retiring, they're quitting the game. A lot of mixers don't want to go topside where the game is on life support. 
[20:43:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I totally hear you Reefer. It's a tough balancing act. That's why I am saying even employing a Mixer to spy on a rival corp by simply getting general day to day info on comings and goings and who drinks what coffee could be an interesting plot. And then there IS a hook for that person getting you into a restricted area or bypassing security if you roll with it and plot it out.
[20:43:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Agree. Service mixers could be some of the most RP involved characters in the game. Mixers trying to compromise them to betray the corporation. CorpSec trying to pump them for info on their Mix associates.
[20:44:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: The Mix v corporate divide was too far in the other direction when I began playing Sindome. But with a small-ish player base, cordoning people off too strictly is just severely limiting RP options.
[20:44:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I can feel Crashdown about to tell me you can do all those things today with xhelps and such but it's just not enough.
[20:44:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: My biggest thing is lets look at the maximum damage a PC could do in those buildings with all those toys and ask ourselves, is it actually worth protecting behind an xhelp?
[20:45:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: I think I agree with the gist of what you're getting at. The game would benefit immensely from more "coded" security that could be bypassed without needing xhelp.
[20:45:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And if so, maybe we should protect the systems/terms from abuse as a revamp.
[20:45:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer, very very little damage is the answer. 
[20:45:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: True! Most of those secure rooms are empty. I guess the problem is the ones that aren't empty are often li
[20:45:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ahem. Often like, super not empty in a problematic way.
[20:45:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Now. Devil's advocate.
[20:46:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I rip out some Corpies eye, implant it my dude, and sneak into the building when no one's logged on from the corp.
[20:46:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Is that enough or am I an asshole?
[20:46:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Even if you have to @service-request the item you are obtaining but it was at least RP you could do to get there. 
[20:46:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Isn't there supposed to be B&E added, and doesn't this solve that problem? 
[20:46:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Reefer. . . I love that. 
[20:46:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: That's enough.
[20:46:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: There was RP with the rip and the victim for the eye but...what about that empty building?
[20:47:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think we gotta focus on things that we can accomplish without several hundred hours of code support, cause we don't really have that right now. Me and Neon are the primary coders. And we're mainly focused on shoring up existing systems, closing bugs, making sure everything we have is usable, bug free, etc. We aren't adding a ton of new systems right now.
[20:47:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to ReeferMadness]: That's the thing. Unless you randomly come across some gear, or a MacGuffin, there really isn't any "there" there
[20:47:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Also, yes. The most you're going to accomplish is kidnapping or murdering a NPC.
[20:47:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: You have to get with staff to get tangible trophies from badlands critters. Putting in a request for an item behind secured doors seems simple enough in the same vein. 
[20:48:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: This isn't a frat house, though. 
[20:48:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Right, would you need to Xhelp or service request to make sure the room was not empty. 
[20:48:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: For sake of argument. Say I'm a sneak that wanted to just follow NSec into a secure room that wasn't empty. 
[20:48:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Could there be a command in a room that lets you search and generate an appropriate macguffin like object that you can use as a RP hook when snooping around in corporations and businesses? It doesn't have to have direct monetary value or it could, but could just be used to generate a plot from and RP from. I don't know how complex the code would be for something like that.
[20:48:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: That needs to be xhelped? Even though it presently is technically possible and non-violent?
[20:48:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Just because of what's in the room?
[20:49:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Slither is clearly very right though, super complex shadow wars of theft and espionage between corps is totally rad but it can't be effected with just policy changes or new plot approaches.
[20:49:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: My points haven't been addressed at all. 
[20:50:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): One of the more immediate things I want to do is make macguffins more stealable, trackable, etc. I want to add things that make you go sit in a specific area for a specific amoutn of time, vulnerable.
[20:50:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So that people can come and steal your shit.
[20:50:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Oh that's interesting
[20:50:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Johnny has talked about B&E a lot. Slither has different opinions.
[20:50:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think B&E with a focus on corporations instead of players is ideal.
[20:50:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in ReeferMadness's general direction.
[20:50:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I agree with that, Reefer.
[20:50:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Player homes*
[20:50:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ditto.
[20:50:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Raise your hand if you are cool with someone breaking into your apartment when you aren't online and stealing all your shit? Basically floods, all the time.
[20:50:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Agreed. 
[20:50:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: now that would be interesting
[20:50:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: Do you long term players think that corp espionage type RP is limited by the PvP genetics of Sindome? There aren't many reasons to PvP corpies other than that they're corpies and they might have some "loot". Where as espionage type gaming is usually more PvE. Obtaining items. Sabotaging corpshare values. etc.
[20:50:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Agreed and I think I raised that before REefer.
[20:51:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: My concern is that changes to macguffins are just going to hand them to mixers.
[20:51:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Cause that's what Johnny wants, and what I've been pushing back on for a decade.
[20:51:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I don't think that would be fun at all.
[20:51:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: The idea of B&E on players is wild to me. What happens when you aren't logged. 
[20:51:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I don't think anyone wants that Slither, and I Don't think anyone is suggesting that currently here. but B&E on buildings.
[20:51:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes pad B&E would kill the game forever in my opinion.
[20:51:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: What if it did, Talon? Wouldn't CorpSec just have to go get them back?
[20:51:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: ive played muds with that and it sucks lol
[20:51:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: What do you mean? IMHO the more Mixers involved with MacGuffins, the better the game will be.
[20:51:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I'm not a fan of home entry beyond what already exists. Corporate play though? Public areas? Absolutely.
[20:51:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Just saying, it's gunna be real hard to have one without the other.
[20:52:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Oooh CorpSec would have to go into the Mix for a secret op to get the MacGuffins back :D
[20:52:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I can definitely do without NPC B&E in that case lol
[20:52:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Thanks for pushing back. Can you channel all of his B&E desires to corporate properties? Or basically "everything" that isn't a player residence?
[20:52:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I will try my best :)
[20:52:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I mean. It is possible to kidnap people as well. Some of my best RP times in other games have involved being kidnapped and the shitstorm that's kicked off. It need not all be about death.
[20:52:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Getting no warning when your shit is getting broken into  would kill the game, I agree. 
[20:52:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think that's a fair direction to push things in, to be honest.
[20:52:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: You mean we'd go into the mix, have a GM shout out our location and get murdered by a swarm of NPC's? Because that's what happened the last half dozen times corpsec was sent into the mix. 
[20:52:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It doesn't solve the problem of empty rooms though.
[20:52:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Agreed entirely Adea!
[20:52:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I don't think corporate espionage is limited, no. I'm fine with eyes being gouged out to use on biometric doors, but I did say I don't think we should let those be NPC eyes.
[20:52:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't think we can just generate shit in those rooms. How do we know it's a B&E and not just some corpsec agent spawning sellable shit over and over?
[20:52:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana hmms
[20:52:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I swear the eye thing used to be possible.
[20:53:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Absolutely agree with that, Adea.
[20:53:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It used to happen somewhat regularly, 0x1mm. 
[20:53:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: 100% agree crash. I cannot stress this enough but we need the shades of grey corporation B&E because that's what allows everyone to intersect.
[20:53:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: That's a good point.
[20:53:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: B&E against players is one-sided and stupid.
[20:53:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): eye thing was never possible without a GM
[20:53:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: B&E against corporations makes people betray/sellout/etc.
[20:53:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: One is a huge amount of RP and the other is me running down the street with your television.
[20:54:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Agreed, Reefer. Apartment looting is just that - cleaning someone out for chyen and profit. There's rarely interesting RP attached to that.
[20:54:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The difficulty with those systems, B&E for corporations, is the difficulty with stealing cars.
[20:54:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm sighing right now.
[20:54:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[20:54:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I also take your point about sleepy topside Talon.
[20:54:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Apartment looting is not always that. Just saying.
[20:54:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: B&E against corporations could be a good way for non-combatants with specific skills to get some exciting RP.
[20:54:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: The car theft code is an excellent foundation for B&E / doors / etc.
[20:54:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Well, it doesn't have to be.
[20:54:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): A player once stole just about every car in game, because they could.
[20:54:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: But car theft has been adjusted.
[20:55:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: There's also added recovery options, which wasn't always the case.
[20:55:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's not just a sleepiness issue. I think we've had two orientations in the past five or six months. People don't want to play corpies because it's fucking boring and awful for most people.
[20:55:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Sure, but how do we balance a corporate theft system such that is accessible without being stupid ICly?
[20:55:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: I like 90% of car theft right now. I think it's very well balanced for the most part. I have two major complaints, but we're not talking about cars right now.
[20:55:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: If someone sneaks in behind me and loots me im good with that. Stupid of me to allow it. But for someone to be able to do so whenever is insane. 
[20:55:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Yeah, agreed spooky.
[20:56:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: By offering orientation for syndicate play and approaching it from that angle?
[20:56:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Talon, I feel that not sure what to suggest though.      
[20:56:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Can you expand on that? What about it needs to be balanced? What would make it stupid ICly?
[20:56:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Right, this isn't about apartment B&E but rather corporation B&E -- might be better to call it a 'heist'... 
[20:56:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek nods in svetlana's general direction.
[20:56:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think you're misinterpreting us, Slither.
[20:56:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm trying to get us on topic for a major issue but we can't pay attention. 
[20:56:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Like, do we require corpsec players to be online for the code to function? Do we restrict it to X times a month because how the fuck is a corp so bad that they can't catch these people? Do we restrict what you get so that you aren't just printing money? Is the risk worth the reward? The only way I see that happening is via GM supported plots.
[20:56:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We don't want gear.
[20:56:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We want obscure corporate shit like macguffins, biomods, etc from these heists.
[20:56:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at ReeferMadness.
[20:57:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I can hardly disagree with that Talon, it's especially tough because topside is massive.
[20:57:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to TalonCzar]: IMO , opinion of one here , I think corpie RP can be majorly exciting for both sides of the divide. But like syndicates, it requires the "correct" type of player(s) in the roles.
[20:57:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: This comes back to corporations actually having shit that people want to chase. 
[20:57:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: And Data. The kind that can be used to manipulate stock prices against our enemies and for our allies.
[20:57:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yessss
[20:57:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I hear what you are saying but like... how ya gunna get a bio-mod unless you have someone coming with you that has the skills to use the rosco? And if they have those skills, what are the chances they don't already work at VS?
[20:57:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I think the 'stupid' part of it is that apartment looting is mostly about gear, if we're being entirely honest. Corporation 'hacking' has more potential to - yeah, exactly Ratchet.
[20:57:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I mean they exsist Slither.
[20:57:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Those are great RP dilemmas to solve.
[20:57:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Steal the printer. 
[20:58:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: skillsofts?
[20:58:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): But like, will people actually be able to -do it-?
[20:58:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Get a Biotech fired and then get them on  your side when they're in the mix
[20:58:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There's been this 'right player' argument for years, but it totally ignores the fact that a bunch of topside jobs exist for no actual reason. 
[20:58:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It's technically possible currently to steal macguffins, and to track them. It's always been possible.
[20:58:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: But we need more corporate PCs first...
[20:58:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: It's like @Reefer just said. You limit it by controlling the frequency with which things "spawn". Will characters break into the corp every day if they're only going to get something 2 out of 30 days a month?
[20:58:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The thing about MacGuffins is what's been done with them though.
[20:58:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think biomods is a bad example because we've seen over the last two years that people will do stuff with them that isn't always above board. I think corporate espionage does have to entail time investment by putting people in place in those corporations. Maybe if the transfer stuff still existed, I was under the impression that portion had been taken out of the game but I'm not 100% sure any more.
[20:59:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Someone stole one and a NPC whipped out a tracker than said 'Bobby did it.'
[20:59:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] The discussion of 'What Cooperative Competition Means, and How it Works in a PvP Game' has been extended for another hour.
[20:59:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Sure Hek -- but what about when you have 3 different factions trying to hit a corp? How do we balance it so that it isn't just first come first serve? If it's first come first serve it becomes a min/max situation where the characters invovled forgo RP because otherwise they get nothing.
[20:59:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I mean keep in mind corporate heists are also very dangerous and people tend to be risk-averse so the heists probably won't happen as often as y'all are saying it will
[20:59:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek: MacGuffins are most of the way there already. The system that tracks them, spawns them, informs people where they are, etc. is good. It just needs to be tweaked a bit. eg inform more people. Provide more detail about them.
[20:59:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It also claims to catalogue your dna on pickup. From most players perspective, it is a daunting and not rewarding task.
[21:00:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Thanks for extending the discussion :D
[21:00:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That mentality needs to change and I'm working on it but those loops could use some help from the Staff side.
[21:00:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I personally see looting as a message to be sent. Or revenge. Where some people murder a fool, a looter loots a fool. Hurts a lot more too. But you don't take everything you can carry. You take one or two high value items. Or something that seems notably important. And data. Leave a note. Or sic the victim later. You have leverage now. And you made a bit of flash without destroying a players ooc desire to keep trying.
[21:00:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Yeah, that's fair Reefer-- we should probably change that.
[21:00:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Honestly, I think the key here is probably relaxing the Mixer-corporate divide. People don't generally want to play corporate characters because they become severely limited movement wise and who they can interact with. Unless you're playing in a role you really love then there's not a huge amount to do with your time otherwise. People might feel more incentivised towards it if could have more legroom.
[21:00:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: I think I get what you're saying. The concern is that players will sit around camping spawn timers and foregoing RP to basically do PvE content of getting the spawned items?
[21:00:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'll change the DNA thing.
[21:01:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: A certain amount of divide is necessary because the love-in gets a bit out of hand otherwise.
[21:01:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Listen. Adding this stuff still does not address the fundamental issue of there not being reasons for combat PC's to exist topside. Until combat PC's topside have shit to do that fulfils their class fantasy, it's not going to change. And adding shit to steal in the buildings is just going to encourage a reversion to old corpsec 'lobby guard' behavior, IMHO. 
[21:01:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods.
[21:02:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I think you are suppose to be able to ask some NPCs (Not tenders but ones in factions) about things and I dont think they work or have anything to say. 
[21:02:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That could def happen yeah. If we design the system poorly. It's a very difficult balancing act making it available to all that want it, restricted enoguh to not be done all the time, valuable enough to be worth the risk, etc. Not saying it's impossible, just that it isn't easy or we'd have done it heh
[21:02:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: What if your combat doctrine was that of a responsive force, Talon?
[21:02:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Open up heists as chatter. 'new thing coming into vs heard they are storing it at bleh' Gives people a target, gives staff the control they want with little actual input then let the world choose who gets it. 
[21:02:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: On the topic of the DNa for macguffins I believe that's on a timer from how I understand it to work. There's a certain sequence that'll happen and to my understanding you're in the clear but there's other players that know more than me.
[21:02:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to fopsy]: Love htat
[21:02:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The problem with that, Reefer is that people are going to go risk adverse and do it when 1 corpsec player is online who's the lowest UE. 
[21:03:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Or for some corporations, when no corpsec players are on. 
[21:03:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): You can ask bartenders thigns, and other NPCs, and there are NPCs that will provide you info on macguffins. 
[21:03:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah but your goal is not to protect. Your goal is recovery and investigation.
[21:03:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: There's also other IC methods that the knowledge is out there on! I promise!!
[21:03:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Are we really saying there is an issue with multiple factions smashing into each other other something they can get at a corporation ? Is this not literally something we want to happen and have been begging for a reason to have these conflicting?
[21:03:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): that code is working, but it isn't like these npcs are just telling this info to anyone who asks. It's under certain restrictions.
[21:03:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: They don't respond to those question, Slither. 
[21:03:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've never seen the divide so touchy feely as it is now tbh
[21:04:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: Can I xhelp you? 
[21:04:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Really Ratchet?
[21:04:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): email me, slither@sindome.org
[21:04:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Fopsy, I'm saying that if we make it a game of who gets there first, it becomes less about RP and more about executing a task as quickly as possible.
[21:04:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So we want to avoid that, but that makes balancing it harder.
[21:05:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: If you involved compeittion in any sense does it not come down to that? 
[21:06:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Might mean restrictions like, he/she/they has to like you. I.E. you have to have a history of biz with them. or something like that
[21:06:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: not just the specific way to phrase the question
[21:06:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: But I don't know. 
[21:06:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I'd love to shift gears to Talon's ask of discussing current pulse of the game once this done, but I think we can keep this topic under the building security post. Should we capture anything else in a bgbb post?
[21:06:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I've never seen anything regarding macguffins from anyone but a PC
[21:07:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't think we want this type of system to be a competition between people trying to get a corporations resources. I think there should be enough of those to go around that everyone who attempts and succeeds can get something, but then it's a matter of figuring out cadence, payoff, risk.
[21:07:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: some npcs do mention them if you meet the requirements and one is active
[21:07:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @fopsy yeah, for real. that I can recall anyway. I've been around for maybe four years of total play time. This is the most gentle I've ever seen the divide that I can remember
[21:07:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: There was attempts in the early days but it became apparent that they were nearly impossible to obtain. 
[21:08:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Not disagreeing in terms of macguffins. They aren't easy to get, but the majority of the reason for that is that the PCs involved are cautious.
[21:08:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I think adding shadowruns to the game would be a great addition, and should focus on mid-tier and up characters. Don't let my discussion of a separate issue come off as me not liking the issue.
[21:08:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: What's shadowrun mean in this context?
[21:08:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That's why I want to create quests for them that involve going somewhere and the macguffin being very visible and stealable.
[21:09:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Shadowruns are always mixers raiding corporate assets, AFAIK. Either at the behest of another rival corporate sponsor, or just to loot 'the good shit' from corp vaults. 
[21:09:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Possibly we need NPC generated macguffins that they move around with, so theft can happen in a PvE environment and not just a PvP environ. Because if it's PvP everyone involved is incentivized to try to win.
[21:09:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: What makes this new macguffin different to the proposed heist? in  terms of competition?
[21:09:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Scan scan.
[21:10:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: That's my take on shadowruns as well. Yes please.
[21:10:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Did you happen to read my @note from a month or two ago about how to make corpies take more risks with MacGuffins?
[21:10:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't typically read player notes as I'm not a GM. I read the BGBB though :)
[21:11:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): fopsy: availability mainly.
[21:11:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think with Macguffins PvP is one avenue but so is blackmailing corporate citizens.
[21:12:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: If you want to push divide RP more, then there needs to be real, tangible differences between mixers and corporates. 
[21:13:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Corpies should be doing more unethical things
[21:13:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: And steal from your bosses
[21:13:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: They probably are, you just don't see them. I hope.
[21:13:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Hah good point
[21:15:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I don't see much hestitation in divide RP. Mixers and corpies are pretty ruthless to eachother imho.
[21:15:34 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Yep. 
[21:15:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of issue with corpies/mixers hating each other. But have they been working together to profit 'off books'?
[21:15:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Can't say I have many complaints about the current divide.
[21:16:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think I'm going to give the divide a thumbs-up.
[21:16:32 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): that's actually quite nice to hear haha
[21:16:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I grumped a bit when I felt the Mix was too soft but things kind of sharpened up right after that.
[21:16:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think it's a little too soft, but I'm not dying for it to change.
[21:16:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I'm just saying, the reality of the mix and the reality of the corporate zones is far, far away from the projected ideal. 
[21:16:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: True enough.
[21:17:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Hek has left the channel.
[21:17:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think that's a result of some vacuums though.
[21:17:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I think my perspective is skewed, I think there is a lot of anti corporate action, but not much anti mixer action. Is that going back to talons point with topside just being dead though?
[21:17:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: It feels weird to get away with even tiny things that would've put people in the ground just months ago.
[21:17:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't know if we will ever hit 'exactly' what we want. If we are promoting RP with it, and keeping to theme in terms of outward hate but secret collaboartion to accomplish potentially conflicting goals---
[21:17:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Anti-mixer action, interesting...I don't think I"ve seen too much of that
[21:18:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: ...you sure about that Svetlana.
[21:18:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana glances about warily.
[21:18:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Driver, take me to x
[21:18:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I see anti-mixer action but it's generally subtle, vicious or both.
[21:18:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Or at least reactionary actions. I am hoping that it is considered somewhat of a dance between the two sectors.
[21:18:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: My point is just this. If corporates had corporate things, and they were just objectively better (because duh) then you're automatically, orgainically generating conflict RP. But the reality is that corpsec is wearing trash, if they wear armor at all, and mixers roll around with the best gear in the game. 
[21:19:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: So why would I go topside and risk my shit? 
[21:19:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I was thinking more things like Mix Safari...
[21:19:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: CorpSec not wearing armor should be an IC thing to shame them about if your character would do that.
[21:19:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Most CorpCits are pinatas for chrome imho.
[21:19:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Crashdown, I don't think shame exists topside. There's zero NPC enforcement of theme. 
[21:19:56 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I agree massively with Talon
[21:20:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana nods in TalonCzar's general direction.
[21:20:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: As someone who has shamed a standard into being changed that got NPC backup after my PC put in the work, I'll disagree but leave it at that.
[21:20:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Like when you have corporates strolling around in literal trash and their corp just nods and smiles, like how the fuck do you worry about other things? 
[21:20:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: The shock jock is doing wonders for topside self confidence
[21:21:08 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think it's fair to ICly shame people who are walking around in garbage. I've had that happen to my character. It was fun.
[21:21:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: But nothing comes of it. 
[21:21:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Well, that's a different issue.
[21:21:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I've dealt out very real IC consequences for someones attire fairly recently tbh.
[21:21:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Raise your hand if you wanna spend 3 months trying to get hired at a corp and then get fired or demoted because you didn't dress right?
[21:21:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: one of my favorite moments in the game was sneaking into KMB with no shirt and everyone staring at me like the grimy-ass mixer i was
[21:21:55 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Creating NPC reactions to what you're wearing could help with that. Add to the ambiance, so to speak.
[21:22:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: *raises hand* 
[21:22:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Slither, knowing a bunch of IC shit about the last suit that was fired from topside for fucking up, it took a literal act of god to get someone fired. 
[21:22:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Cause we've gone down that road before and all it was was complaints from players about how they put a ton of effort in and lost their jobs or were punished for small things.
[21:22:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I think being demoted if you're six months in and wearing depot clothes is acceptable. But you've got to make it happen ICly through PC pushback first. And consistent pushback. You can't just expect to say something once or twice and then a culture changes, ya know?
[21:22:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Mixers get those ambpop messages on green about being looked down on, etc. Or the rundown in the levs on green. 
[21:22:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Corporate employment should be a privileged position, not something you fuck up and bounce between corporations with little consiquence.
[21:23:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Go back a few town halls to people making big waves about how topside was too strict, and you'll understand how we got to where we are now.
[21:23:09 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The issue used to be, if people feared getting axed, they did nothing but the bare minimum.
[21:23:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: But now they're still doing the bare minimum...
[21:23:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Then make the bare minimum the thing that gets you fired. 
[21:23:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Or not. I don't play a corpie so I don't rly know the reality of it all
[21:23:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think as players, if you give other characters shit, and then report it to their boss ICly, you'll see some responses.
[21:23:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Yes.
[21:24:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: You will.
[21:24:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): but gms, while they can see everything if they are paying attention, are not always paying attention to what someone is wearing. that's just the reality of things. in 90% of cases we rely on you all to make us aware of things ICly/OOCly/etc.
[21:24:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Pretty sure I saw our stock dip half a point when this baka walked in with Du-Wear. One of our investors was talking shit about our standards on his way out.
[21:24:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I have never played a corporate job, but from what I can tell, corporate jobs have many of the same trappings, or maybe even more practical trappings as a syndicate job while taking nearly none of the risks to receive it.
[21:25:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I am open to being corrected, but.
[21:25:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Corporate jobs are super comfy.
[21:25:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): help us enforce the theme ICly by taking IC actions when people aren't coming correct. We'll do our best.
[21:25:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I might be crazy but what if you just exploited and murdered the corpies for their trappings and wealth?
[21:26:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I agree and disagree with that, fopsy. Some corporate jobs require a lot of OOC time and effort to do well.
[21:26:18 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I'm not really taking issue with it, I'm just pointing it out since we were speaking on how easy it is to be fired / how hard it is to be fired.
[21:26:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Topside is just a weird beast in general. It caters to way more diverse gameplay than the Mix does and it's kind of massive.
[21:26:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It'd be better with more vehicle combat.
[21:26:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Everything would be better with vehicle combat.
[21:27:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Adea, It was more of an off handed hyperbolic statement, which I will amend with 'some corporate jobs are comfy and some are MASSIVE ooc time sincs'
[21:27:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): topside is like a totally different game tbh
[21:27:22 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: It feels like it.
[21:27:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: is that a good thing?
[21:27:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think so.
[21:27:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: To an extent it is. 
[21:27:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Yes. It adds nuance and also recognizes not everyone plays the game for the same reasons.
[21:28:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): You get different types of players, can cater to different styles of RP. Some people want a more social game. Some people want a more ruthless one.
[21:28:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: valid
[21:28:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Hot take. You can play any style as both.
[21:28:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I think it should be legal for corporations to arm their vehicles for defense if they have a role that requires the vehicle to go into Red or dangerous places, and then that might inspire some more vehicle conflict inside of the city. 
[21:28:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: you can apply for permits for all kinds of weapons...
[21:28:59 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: @fopsy indeed
[21:29:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I've been told by the WJF that it's illegal even for the corporations so I am not sure that is the case right now.
[21:29:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I personally see welcoming a division in the player base as bad thing, in a wilting playerbase. 
[21:30:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I view vehicle weapons as the great equalizer.
[21:30:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: I've unironically said to shutter topside to focus on restarting the mix. But I'm silly like that. 
[21:30:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: In a dome where only outlaws have vehicle weapons...
[21:31:17 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Doesn't too much handshaking in a dwindling player base have the potential to lead us back to a no conflict scenario?
[21:31:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Ala Slither from his new player guide on youtube, if I recall?
[21:31:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Has been years though since I saw it. Could've been somewhere else. 
[21:31:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It could but there was a lot more of a close knit community in the past and everyone managed to be pretty awful to one another.
[21:32:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: IC, I mean.
[21:32:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think we'll be aight. I love you all and look forward to wearing your PC's faces around like Hannibal Lector.
[21:32:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana laughs
[21:33:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I division in the sense of separation between the sectors as a means to distance RP, not as in IC conflict and colusion. 
[21:33:06 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I think what I meant by pointing it out, is that the same things that take years to achieve in the mix are pretty easy to get into with corps, and despite being very similar in goals and outcomes, corporate characters undergo way less scrutiny and vetting and tribulation than a mixer character ending up at more or less the same spot. I think it's a sort of power creep problem that comes from topside being rapidly expanded upon. It also takes me way too long to articulate my thoughts and we've basically moved on from this already, but yeah.
[21:33:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: it is 5:33am for me my brain is struggling.
[21:33:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: You can just AFK into it, Batko. To your point. 
[21:33:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: omg go to sleep :(
[21:33:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I wouldn't describe most corporate positions as similar to syndicate roles, personally.
[21:33:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Only the tippy top.
[21:33:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: They aren't. Syndicate roles get a lot of passes that junior/standard ranks would not.
[21:34:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Corporate management, yes. But those jobs are absurdly stupid hard to get. 
[21:34:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: This is passion... or you know addiction. Fine line. Svet.
[21:34:07 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana grins at fopsy.
[21:34:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: You'll see me on SIC when it's 5:33am my time and say the same thing to me LOL.
[21:34:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: It it weren't for jobs...
[21:34:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I might not log off.
[21:35:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: To be entirely reductionist and unhelpful; faction backing and budgets. Those are the big things that I'm talking about. You can do so much with just a budget that it's insane. Because it's a player-GM sort of thing, where you're given money intended to be thrown at other players.
[21:35:44 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Oh right, yes there is a lot of money.
[21:36:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Money making has been a huge issue my entire time playing. It does really hinder what you can do, but I've found some ways to work around it, to varying affect.
[21:36:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: I believe there's more scrutiny for corporate budgets + more people to share with (sometimes), though.
[21:36:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Sometimes creating the illusion that you have flash is helpful in getting people to come to you.
[21:37:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: But I can only judge that on secondhand information for one and personal experience for the other.
[21:37:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: That is true as well in my experience.
[21:37:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: There seems to be some disagreement about whether or not that's the reality or not with topside. I've personally found that fraud and embezzlement are pretty tightly controlled. And requisitions is just... ugh. 
[21:37:10 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: There's more scrutiny for sure.
[21:37:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay folx, it's bedtime for me. I'd planned on 2 hours and we're at 3.5. This discussion has been great and it'll stay open another 30 minutes, but I'll be in bed. I'll check back on the scroll and post a log tomorrow. Thank you all so much for the wonderful conversation. I've got some good takeaways to discuss in our next staff meeting and some ideas for code changes to better support RP. Have a good night everyone!
[21:37:33 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Thanks Slither! Have a great night!
[21:37:40 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Svet get on OOC! 
[21:37:43 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Have a good night, Slither. Thank you for your time.
[21:37:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Night.
[21:37:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Thanks.
[21:37:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Thank you for accomodating our madness. 
[21:37:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Have you all been enjoying these guided discussions? We've had a bunch lately.
[21:38:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: The reality is that if you are a junior, you're not getting all the toys you want. There needs to be a sense of progression.
[21:38:12 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I love these guided discussions!
[21:38:14 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel very heard.
[21:38:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It's an interesting balance because on the one hand, more resources to players does mean they can enable more things, on the other, it is a competitive game.
[21:38:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I enjoy them. I don't think we often reach solutions, but I think we are marching in a direction.
[21:38:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I'm not saying this from a 'nerf topside' standpoint, I don't think it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that these tools are clearly meant to spur forward RP and it takes the correct players to fill those roles.
[21:38:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I have Reefer. And Coral as a senior it was a massive challenge to get requisitions. Even for some insanely simple things. 
[21:39:25 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Admittedly my experiences are from a over year ago and a LOT has changed. 
[21:39:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: I am familiar with what your complaint is and that is because we also have a limit on certain items in the game.
[21:40:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Here's my thing. It's like "Do plots to get promotions!" And then at the same time "Haha, fuck you, we're not funding SHIT for your plots, junior scrub!" 
[21:40:35 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: One of the specific items I recall your comment may be about has also been fixed through other means.
[21:41:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: As I said, my experiences are old and I am both hopeful and thankful that my comments brought positive change. 
[21:41:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Plenty of players have found ways to save money, borrow money, or cheat their ways up. I'm not saying this to be dismissive, Talon, I understand it can be a challenge. If you're not getting what you want, consider engineering a situation to get what you want.
[21:41:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Everyone is trying to run plots though, so the balance is not making it so anything other than a corporate job is a waste of time.
[21:41:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I spend a lot of time writing projects and IC stuff down that never comes to fruition but I try to do so in a way that others can find and build upon my work.
[21:42:13 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: To be entirely fair, I think we have some excellent and very motivated corporate players. I don't think all of them are 'negative-conflict' driven, but I've been pretty impressed by some of them.
[21:42:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Topside seems less populated than in the past
[21:42:41 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Sometimes you just need to fucking will something into existence while everyone tells you no, honestly.
[21:42:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Topside lost 10+ players in September, so yes.
[21:42:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: The thing is Coral, I ran plots like a motherfucker over the fall and winter and I got zero recognition for it, my promotion took twice as long as it should have, and I spent every dime I got pushing more plots. Now I do nothing but stare at a wall, and I'm rich. So what's the obvious winning strategy here for players? You see what I'm getting at? 
[21:42:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Dang
[21:43:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: Then there's been fallout from stuff outside the game that made it so topside lost two significant people as well.
[21:43:23 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana blinks like a hardcore motherfucker!.
[21:43:30 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Being honest, I sometimes feel the same way as Talon.
[21:43:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I mean, running plots is a money-losing thing for everyone.
[21:43:53 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] crashdown: IT is.
[21:43:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: We need to find more reasons for mixers to move up the 'social ladder'
[21:44:19 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I've literally never made a single chyen from a capital-p Plot, I don't think.
[21:44:21 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Like I'm being 100% honest here. If I was a mixer doing the same thing, I'd be sitting on a mountain of shit and have allies out the ass. But as a corporate what do I get? Zilch. Nada. 
[21:44:28 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Felt that in my soul Talon. 
[21:44:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, plots don't make chyen. Dead corpies do.
[21:44:57 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I would argue that it can be the same in Mix to be fair.
[21:44:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana grins.
[21:45:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Sometimes you get lucky and combine the two.
[21:45:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: That sounds like a problem itself then.
[21:45:03 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Similar to life, Talon, if someone isn't advocating for you, then I suggest you advocate for yourself. Let's not get into specifics here though, this isn't the place for it.
[21:45:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Well some of that is the fact that topside is super secure and the income is time metered
[21:45:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: Yeah, agreed. 
[21:45:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I would say though that if people pushing RP and plots are coming up at a net loss over those that are not, that is sort of a problem.
[21:46:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I don't do plots to make chy...Then again that's why my char is always broke AF
[21:46:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I think the across the board reduction in pricing on mix npc deliveries has exacerbated that flash for plot issue. 
[21:46:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: In an effort to make a larger divide between top and red income, we kind of neutered plot buying power
[21:46:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: There was a reduction?
[21:46:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: A while ago now, yeah
[21:46:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Like... four or five years ago now, yeah.
[21:46:58 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Ohhh
[21:47:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Pretty large one lol
[21:47:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think just about anyone playing very actively is going to be losing chyen at a certain point.
[21:48:05 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I think that a faction in the mix, at least from my limited perspective less willing to float money for plots has been a challenge. 
[21:48:11 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I generally hemmorhage cash like nobodies business.
[21:49:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar: It's been good talking. I've been mostly negative in tone tonight, but it's because I've been pretty laser focused on specific issues I'm not particularly happy with. Hope everyone had a great discussion! 
[21:49:29 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] TalonCzar has left the channel.
[21:50:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: That is all good and well if you are able to sustain money to pay it out or have a buffer, but if you don't and your funds just continue to get smaller and smaller it drives you into a place where you cannot do it anymore, or there is an expectation that money is going to be there to drive these things and there isn't and that is a whole different issue when trying to continue something long term. 
[21:50:38 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: It's all fun and games until you realize you barely have enough chy for a new clone lmao
[21:50:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes I do think that happens. I ran out of money playing CorpSec, so now I'm like a chyen tryhard. 
[21:50:51 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, the alternative becomes pushing plots by blackmail and threat.
[21:51:02 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Which is effective but can make for some upset people.
[21:51:42 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: This is never popular advice but the absolute best way I've always found to advance plots and do cool stuff is being able to outspend everyone.
[21:51:52 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Maybe that's not ideal, I'm not sure.
[21:51:54 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: If you can back it up. You need chy to hire the muscle if you aren't combat oriented. Or to bribe people if you aren't in the right circles. 
[21:52:20 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: If you don't have that chy then things die. 
[21:52:36 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: momentum dies. Plot dies. interest dies. 
[21:53:00 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: True. Why I think there should be as many avenues for characters to make money, in many different ways, as dev time can afford to have.
[21:53:15 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Could always try kidnapping a corpie out of the Genetek vats and demanding an absurd sum.
[21:53:31 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Love that idea Reefer :D 
[21:53:47 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: I'd personally like to steal a certain glove from a certain store in a certain mall on gold.
[21:53:50 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I agree. And that is an awesome idea. I am not sure ideas are lacking, just the ability to actually do them.
[21:54:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Where the staff at? Xhelp time. 
[21:54:16 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: sleeping
[21:54:24 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the struggle in the mix is at a point you just need to start taking because no one will give you shit.
[21:54:37 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And one you become good at taking there is no looking back.
[21:54:48 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And then you become the villain
[21:55:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I have not read your bbgb posts, but I would like to see how a non-com is meant to achieve half the stuff that is oftern suggested. 
[21:55:27 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: Compromising your values for the cause is a good twist. 
[21:55:45 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana points at RatchetEffect.
[21:57:04 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That's the architects dilemma, Fopsy, and I don't have a good answer. Robots maybe?
[21:57:26 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: winning friends and influencing people
[21:57:39 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: My experience has been there is really no one thing that is reliably super profitable.
[21:57:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] RatchetEffect: From the perspective of someone who's only played one and a half characters, I see it like this for non-coms...
[21:57:46 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] Risikio: Kissing hands and shaking babies.
[21:58:01 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana grins at Risikio.
[21:58:49 02/16] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer and svet, I love you both. Been doing just that for a while will let you know when it bares fruit.