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Calling out Players in XOOC/XGAME
Can we, like, not?

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It's sad to see. People trying to police players approved histories, calling people out because they used one term that was picked up by a newer piece of media and claiming they are breaking immersion in the game or unthemely, or just really going at people ooc for things better handled IC or through a @note or xhelp. Let's not go after people in OOC chats, but let's try and help eachother play the game? We're players in a genre that is very niche, and would like to preserve playing with other people. If you don't want them around, so be it, but others might like their character. Let's not try to shut people out because of miscommunications or semantics to control something staff already said was perfectly fine.

Ideas:

If you think something is wrong, don't just tease or poke at someone in xooc because you happen to know who they play through some mistakes in posting in the right channel. Maybe send a note to staff or an xhelp with your concern and get someone some helpful guidance. Callouts drive players away, and we want to make sure people stick around.

Thanks for reading.

By robotdogfighter at Aug 24, 2023 2:23 PM
I would agree in general about calling players out directly but that is a misrepresentation of what happened earlier. If it appeared like a direct callout that is just perception and timing: Many, many players new and old have made increasing reference to Cyberpunk 2077 and I don't think it's inappropriate to point out that Sindome isn't just a generic catch-all cyberpunk setting but does have it's own history and universe that is in many cases very different from Night City; making references to that latter stick out.

There has already been discussion about this before, re: CP2077 slang and trademarks, but I think specifics events and people that have been popping up more lately may be considered pushing it where it overwrites Sindome's own setting and it's reasonable to discuss.

By 0x1mm at Aug 24, 2023 2:41 PM
If you ever suspect a player is acting unthemely or see someone attempting to address in-character behavior through out-of-character channels like xgame/xooc, don't hesitate to use xhelp and inform the staff. It's best to handle such behaviors early on.

Regarding the vernacular & slang from CP-2077, its integration doesn't necessarily break immersion. Terms popularized by the game and series, especially those aligned with existing in-game lore/theme, have been circulating for a while now. Words like "choom," "choombata," "choomba," "preem," "flatlined," "gato," "nova," and others have become quite common in my experience. Typically, players either accept these terms or address them in character when necessary. Given that some of this slang is already in use or is closely related to the game's wiki, I don't see an issue with its inclusion. And, again, if there does come a time when someone's using words that seriously have no place in the game, you could always just push back IC and/or xhelp.

By Napoleon at Aug 24, 2023 2:57 PM
My pointing these blurring lines out has less to do with choom, preem and corpo gradually replacing chum, ace and corpie, but is more specific to conflicting unique elements. For (hypothetical) example referring to the Heaven Boys as the Voodoo Boys, or WAI as Militech, creating characters verbatim after 2077 figures and similar situations. Especially in cases where vaguely included outside material actually erases real things and history that already exists in game, I don't think it's being excessively protectionist to simply bring it up.

Sindome took inspiration from the old Cyberpunk 2013/2020 tabletop, but blurring the lines between 2077 brands and names and factions, places and people, et cetera is still incorrect in my view. It is even more incorrect where they are very similar because the SD original may not be clear to players who started with 2077 and then came to SD, and it's especially important to draw distinctions where many players may have no idea of what is true to Sindome's IP.

As far as dealing with things IC versus OOC, in cases where characters may have no idea they're treading on manufactured ground, I don't think it's inappropriate at all for their to be a generalized head's up discussion and chance to reposition themselves in a way that avoids taking real heat for something they may not understand. I do think player-enforced pressures can be appropriate for characters presenting false information about the world that is derived from 2077 or other properties, but I think they should at least have a chance to "Sindomify" their roleplay first.

As far as going to staff, this was not an issue with any one player in isolation where that approach may be correct. Larger discussions about theme and content, what is and is not appropriate have always been fair game for OOC discussion -- the BGBB is absolutely full of lively arguments over what is correct theme and roleplay. While players may (and often do) feel attacked for broader criticisms of roleplaying choices that may pertain to them, I think these types of discussions are important for hammering out what the game is intended to be versus how players may see it.

By 0x1mm at Aug 24, 2023 4:58 PM
I had no idea that “choom” or any other of the slang listed was from CP2077. The first time I heard this slang was IC and I just figured it was part of the world’s unique vernacular just like “aces” is. When I started playing SD I had no idea about anything cyberpunk whatsoever and this game was my introduction to the genre.

Worse than the xooc corrections, in my opinion, is using one’s IC character to interrogate new players’ characters about their @history before they came to Withmore. It’s all hand wavey anyway right? As long as it’s not something obvious from the timeline and lore like the Middle East being an irradiated wasteland, why be nit picky about whether or not a character could’ve -actually- come from a random unnamed tribe in the badlands or whatnot. It’s rude and comes off as immersion breaking IC because why doubt some random character’s origins for no good IC reason?

By svetlana at Aug 24, 2023 7:50 PM
Player characters are only supposed to have personal history in any in-game location with special approval, before their character is created. I imagine in part to specifically avoid players creating new canon that could conflict with what's already there.

Borrowing character history from 2077 by way of a Night City-esque location is one thing, inventing new canon lifted straight from another game is I think, a different story. In the approved situations where character backstories are tightly bound to Withmore itself and that history is going to be a public and on-going thing, then I believe it's important for players to be conforming to what is there already in lore and history and practical content.

By 0x1mm at Aug 24, 2023 9:15 PM
If the staff approved a character's history, it means that staff are fine with it.
By svetlana at Aug 24, 2023 9:37 PM
I disagree. Histories are not being vetted to the point of creation of new canon, and players are advised to avoid a lot of city-specific integration for that and other reasons, because personal cannon does not trump actual game lore, content, or history.

Nor is an approved character history carte blanche to create canon or new gameplay truth. A character's history might describe them as an expert in such and such an area or field, but they may still fall afoul of stating things that run contrary to what exists in game, or how things work in character.

A player may speckle in references and personal knowledge about various non-Withmorian places where there is vague canon and lots of different versions of things can be true, but as soon as it concerns real places that exist in game that have real people, places, things and names that pertain to them, then personal headcannon no longer applies.

This is true in general fact, but I think it needs to be especially true when talking about intellectual property that is very overtly not owned by Sindome. Both for the integrity of the unique game world and unique take on the cyberpunk genre, but also out of the practical sense that borrowing too liberally from other IPs means there is nothing to own intellectually; which is exactly the problem that Game's Workshop ran into with their too borrow-friendly and generic Warhammer Fantasy and why it was famously reworked into the copyrightable Age of Sigmar.

By 0x1mm at Aug 24, 2023 10:27 PM
However it's not really my interest to prosecute this to the Nth degree here because I think just bringing it up as discussion is likely to effect moving the needle in the right direction, but I'm pretty surprised at some player's laissez-faire attitude to what I think is an important, and ever more apparent, issue that has involved a lot of new and old players alike; not anyone in particular but a general trend.

A trend that is likely to remain a growing issue as long as Cyberpunk 2077 dominates the popular mindshare of cyberpunk gaming properties. So if players want to contest it even is an issue, then I have no problem getting into the weeds on the minutiae. However these responses are not an extended diatribe against any one person or any single instance, but rather a general rejection of importing further Cyberpunk 2077 lore and content into Sindome.

By 0x1mm at Aug 25, 2023 1:32 AM
It's this type of cliquishness and pedantry that turns potential new players away from joining Sindome, 0x1mm. I get what you're saying about preserving the magic of Withmore City's lore but playing theme police and gatekeeping new players who don't miraculously know -everything- about the 30-year history of this game when they write their very first @history is ultimately unhealthy for the future of this game.
By svetlana at Aug 25, 2023 7:13 PM
That's an exaggeration. No one expects new players to be knowledgeable about details of city life, especially where it concerns niche areas unknown to many players. But there is a distinction to be made for players claiming knowledge or stating it, about in-game places on the basis their histories make it true. From help writing-history:

You cannot have been born in or previously lived in Withmore or any other in-game location without GM approval. You will need to XHELP to get this approval before creating your character.

The reasoning behind this seems clear to me: Players who have history inside the playable game world need to understand the game world to begin with. A character could falsely claim to be from somewhere and authentically present phony (and wrong) information about it to others, but a character cannot create new canon that would conflict where some already exists.

All players began ignorant of the game's world and story, but many many players are able to adapt what begins as personal canon into the game world without the need to import from other properties that are not Sindome. This is hardly too much to expect of people and I think to suggest otherwise is a bit reductionist.

By 0x1mm at Aug 25, 2023 7:32 PM
I don't like the idea of anyone, staff or player, 'calling someone out' on OOC channels.

I haven't been around as far as I know for any calling out happening on OOC recently. So I'm speaking generally.

However, I think there is a difference between calling someone out, and giving them feedback.

So first and foremost regardless of the situation: Be polite, and constructive in your feedback.

"Hey, I know CP2077 is popular, but some of the slang from that game isn't really used here. Sindome has been around for ~25 years and has evolved its own CP slang based on early CP2020 slang. An example of that is X. Instead we typically say Y. While using Y instead of X isn't a requirement, some people may find it immersion breaking to hear X. The BGBB has a big list of slang, and a whole thread on it if you wanna know what is typically used here: https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/theme/cyberpunk-slang-100/"

Takes longer to write than 'we don't say X here' but it also provides relevant context that can help a new player learn, while at the same time not making them feel badly for using a specific slang.

By Slither at Sep 6, 2023 1:20 PM
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