Disguises and META players
We see you

That's all it is, OOC suspicions. In a city of 75 million people or so there is no way you can tell me your flimsy suspicions are enough to make the call to order someone to take their disguise off. That renders disguises useless. Sure, you could if you had reason, but acting on your OOC knowledge, which this is, in an attempt to game your opponents because you can't beat them the good old fashioned way is poor and you should be ashamed.

I've seen this happen to my own PC and once a little while back again in relation to my PC and joebaka said 'Is it you, X?' when they had NO way of knowing or telling. It ended up with said joebaka dying due to the misunderstanding and for being a gaming douche.

Not enough of those instances happen however where players mistake stronger characters for their enemies and I wish it did. Because players carry on as if there is no ambience and only the player population populating the dome. You offer nothing valuable to the game besides trying to game to win, you act on your OOC knowledge (Don't even try to deny it) and you render a skill that is ALL ABOUT DISGUISING and remaining ANONYMOUS useless when you use flimsy shit as reasoning for your actions.

Thoughts on this? Since an admin told me it's perfectly alright for someone to demand someone to take off their disguise based on suspicions, which makes me question what those are when your disguise hasn't even slipped (refer to META ie. joebaka knows x style of combat, it has to be them, take off your disguise) and I think that is total bullshit in a city of seventy million people.

This has happened at least two times that I know of in regards to my PC, where other combat oriented characters (notice the trend) have mistaken others for my PC due to their flimsy suspicions and bullshittery. Each instance was involving two completely different PC's and today they got lucky after many attempts of trying to game to get me. Frankly, it's poor behaviour and I don't like it. There's no point in having invested in disguise at this point.

First of all, don't think "Is this enough to know it was them?" Start with "Is this enough to suspect it was them?" I don't know how often I've skipped that first step, trying to confirm and identify someone I had no business even suspecting.

Before you even suspect someone you need to have some serious evidence. Having the same common clothing, same gear or same build isn't enough. Hell, I'd argue that having all three isn't enough. What might let you suspect? An exposed tattoo. A VERY unique item on display. A recognizable voice combined with other factors. An exposed birthmark. Error on the side of caution. Respect disguises that haven't slipped.

Second, if the code didn't show their name, you did not see enough to ID them later. At all. Just leave it. MAYBE you saw enough to SUSPECT but I really doubt it. In the last two years of playing I can only recall seeing someone in a disguise that hasn't slipped with enough identifiable features to suspect them later 2 or 3 times.

Third, don't ignore ambient crowds. If you're on the streets of Red (and probably also Gold) you probably don't see someone at first. Maybe at all. Same thing for a busy bar. Any place that is full of people. If you're not sure just look into the room in question from a neighboring room or read the rooms description. I have literally stood with someone who was undisguised and who I had IDed when they robbed me (disguise codedly slipped) and did nothing because the street was too busy.

Lastly, when can you ignore a disguise? The only scenario I can think of is when you see someone who is undisguised put their disguise on. Then you know it's them as long as you keep them in sight. But if they leave your sight, then you have probably lost them.

Anyways, just how I approach disguises. It's not perfect but it has helped me be meta a little less often.

Approaching everyone and demanding they take off their disguise on Red just doesn't make any sense. There are thousands of mixers walking around in hoodies and ponchos. And there is no way you could claim to have approached ALL of them and demanded they take off their hoods. It is not even mechanically possible to ask them to do so. So this just ends up allowing you to target players who should really just be blending in with the crowd. Now, if someone approaches you, go right ahead and tell them to dehood or scram. Maybe go for it if someone does something that REALLY grabs your attention (chances are most mundane poses won't do this).

In places like Gold and Green, it makes more sense to be able to single out and accost hooded individuals. Same if you are in an uncrowded area.

Again, just my approach.

Also, while it's true that this has been more or less a problem since I have a memory, also you should understand that there is probably more going on than what you believe or perceive to be meta. Some players aren't as discreet or low-key as they would believe to be. In this case the best thing is to consult with staff to make sure everybody's playing by the rules.

I say this as someone whose character has been killed twice now while disguised, by the way. In each case, there was 'enough' justification for me to not feel cheated, although one of them was a stretch.

1. Do you know the character more than an Average character would? By that I mean do you interact with this person a shit ton?

2. Have you seen this person remove and apply the same disguise over and over and over in the same area doing the same thing?

I'm sure it can be added to but that's what I can think of off of the top of my head. I don't think it is much of a stretch to suspect someone if you know their quirks, voice, build, where they work and hang out at and have seen them apply and remove the same bullet ridden and colored shroud or hoodie over and over doing the same things you've seen them do without a disguise. I -try- to avoid pursuing it just because I don't want to deal with someone who feels otherwise.

If you don't know a chummer like that, then yeah, you're being meta.

I've also been in a situation where someone just gave me bad information on someone to go harass. Many characters do not go by their coded name. For example, if your coded name is Herpes but you call yourself Aids. It's smart. It helps divert people from Meta'ing who you are. No problem with that at all. My point though, if you don't OOCly as well as ICly know who that person is, and you've been told where they might hang out and rough but incorrect description of them, is it your fault for confronting them (even it doesn't result in any losses)? Should you instantly assume ((META))? I don't think a coded disguise should be the end all say of you're not allowed to figure out who someone may be, I think there should be exceptions (like noted above that are super obvious) because honestly we are all not as slick as we percieve ourselves to be.

Disguises ALREADY and have been for over a month at least disguise your spectacular, etc condition…

It also hides your minor wounds as long as it doesn't lower your condition below excellent.

Also, as stated before in the town hall. If you're disguised, you're disguised, no if ands or buts about it.

Anyone 'guessing' conveniently on disguised people is dead wrong and should be reported on xhelp for metagaming.

If people are hanging out in the express tubes with disguises on. If you don't think that's suspicious, there is nothing else I can do to help you understand.

it's all circumstantial common sense.

Good luck.

Grey0 touched on this briefly in his post above and also mentioned:

"The only scenario I can think of is when you see someone who is undisguised put their disguise on. Then you know it's them as long as you keep them in sight. But if they leave your sight, then you have probably lost them."

So here are a few pretty common scenarios, I think. I've seen different players RP differently when encountering each scenario (or something similar to it).

Scenario One: You're in a bar and Bob says, "Let's go have fun in a different bar." So you "follow Bob", who puts on his disguise (and becomes a shrouded boy) then starts walking down the street. You're a little slow and you lose sight of a shrouded boy in one room, but you quickly catch up to him in the next room(which you know is Bob OOCly). However, he is still disguised, so should you "follow shrouded boy" and assume he is Bob or have you lost sight of him for good?

Because there should also be ambient boys with disguises in each room.

This brings me to the second scenario: If you see a shrouded boy in one room, but then they disappear for awhile and you see another shrouded boy in another room near the first room some time later, should you assume they are the same shrouded figure? Because, I know again, ambience should be factored in.

Scenario Three: SIC yells "Hooded tall boy just killed someone on Bob Street." And you walk over to a Bob street, where you see a hooded tall boy. However, ambience-wise, there should be more than one hooded tall boy in the room. Should you assume that hooded tall boy is the one referred to on SIC or not?

Scenario Four: You want to kill Bob, an average man. You walk into a bar where you see Bob undisguised, then walk back out and wait outside for him. Soon, a shrouded average man walks out the bar. When ambience is factored in, you've probably seen a few average men in disguises walk out, so should you identify this shrouded average man as Bob or not?

And that's all for my questions on ambience and disguises.

On a less related note to ambience, but still on META and disguises: If a character has a tailored pair of sneakers with a sizable @worn paragraph that describes a normal-looking pair of sneakers that can be found commonly, should they or should they not be identified by that pair of sneakers while disguised with a hoodie? I've always assumed not, but have experienced differently.

Thanks for reading!

2) No, unless you have other evidence.

3) On the street? Probably not unless you got a poncho color or the person is covered in blood or holding a murder weapon or something. Remember that Withmore is more crowded than Tokyo. It's more crowded than Mumbai. Especially in Red the rooms are potentially huge and there are people -everywhere-.

You can get evidence about ambpop by looking into a room (provided it is free of NPCs and players) to see whether you see a steady flow of people or a heaving throng or whatever. Note also that if it's foggy or night time or pouring rain you may have a harder time picking people out of a crowd, especially if your perception stat is not very high or you don't have cyberware to help with picking up details.

I just recall others performing such moments of mass murder in the past, and have always wondered what made it legal.

Pocket change, wallets, all that stuff that people seem convinced they constantly have to go after just ups the statistical probability that your ass is gonna get caught. A dedicated thief isn't going to throw their clone away for a wallet with maybe 2000 chyen in it unless they're ready to fight the mark they're robbing.

Only desperate street urchins should be showing no discretion when trying to make ends meet with thievery in my opinion.