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Drug Manufacturing Feedback
Why does it seem no one does it?

So, drug manufacturing has been in the game for a good amount of years now but I rarely see anyone using it. I'd like to discuss the reasons behind that.

Don't get IC with it, just objective feedback. Is it hard to understand? Is it to expensive? Is it too prone to disaster? Is it not profitable?

Lay it on me!

-- S

Too expensive, so only select few who are rich enough (and desire to dabble in that) will do so. It's a huge investment, so people who do eventually get them might lack the skill needed and might lose all their hard earned chyen, which in turn leads to it being non profitable. If the setup was cheaper we'd see more people taking these roles on and undercutting Nice Dreams to establish a cluentele base until they produce higher quality.

Right now, the majority of drugs I believe (I have no knowledge, but I assume) coming from players are those employed by corporations where the tools are provided.

My 2chy.

My gut feeling from what I have experienced first hand is an OOC resistance to getting one's character addicted to anything. From my vantage point I think the demand isn't there.

Maybe remove the ability to detox from all but the most wealthy of corpies? Let execs have a bitching weekend getting strung out on every substance known to man, but once that mixer dips into the Marcy they either have to suffer the pain or keep the addiction.

I'm not aware of a lower-tier chemicals method, so from my own perspective it seems like there's a really steep initial investment that would take a long time to make your money back on even if everything went totally fine all the time. Things are more fun when they're on fire, so I'd assume everything isn't totally fine all the time.

Getting into drug manufacturing seems understandable from an outsider perspective, and I could probably draw a better roadmap for myself on how to get to that point than with some other skills, even if I don't have a good handle on how I'd set things up to afford that investment. Maybe it's more confusing when you're actually interacting with it, though?

Thanks for the feedback so far! Keep it coming. I would like to look into this in the coming weeks or months and find a way to make it more accessible.

One thing I've heard discussed is lowering the price but making them require restocking, so that you can buy a manufacturing rig for much cheaper, but to keep making drugs, you have to buy supplies.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of a cheaper rig then having to buy supplies. Really, nothing should have infinite potential uses.

However, I feel, at least when I was playing regularly, the problem is the market. It's just not that good. Nice dreams is there, easy and convenient. So even those players that okay addicts have an easy way to fill it.

You can sell to npcs, but only up to earning cap. You can have others sell to npcs, but unless they're a great haggler, you can't make a decent amount and give them a cut that is worth their while and taking the full amount off their earning cap.

I understand why the earning cap is there, so here are some other ideas.

1. Make drugs illegal. Or, at least some drugs. There was that big outburst about V at some point, but nothing ever came of it. This gives the ma and pas a market Nice Dreams can't touch, at least not publically.

2. This one is for the playerbase. Do drugs. I know it's against everything we learned in DARE, but drugs are good. They boost your stats, or put IC, they simply make you better. They make you feel better, too. Mixer, are you telling me you can walk that crowded, smelly, abrasive sprawl we lovingly call the Mix, and not grab your morning hit? Corpies, are you really going to put up your fake front for the day and deal with other fake people who probably just want your job and not take something to help get you through it? Not too mention sic is constantly streaming into your head, it's a wonder drugs aren't mandatory.

I think that's all for now.

I'd concur with pretty much all of the above.

It's definitely very VERY cost prohibitive to setup. Which would be fine, if the products it made sold like hotcakes.

The supply/demand issue. A great many players seem to find the negative coded/scripted effects of addiction and withdrawal not very entertaining. This has been brought up recently elsewhere too. Like that drugs could use some love in the RP/echo/effect department to make them more appealing in general.

I think they'd benefit from some 'positive echos' or some kind of inner RP guidance script that tells you how amazeballs you feel right now. "you feel so goddamn fucking good right now, you start tripping balls man..wait did you see that??" etc.

I also think they'd benefit from being less rigid in how they cause to you react when you're withdrawing. I realize drugs make you not act like yourself, but it can be kind of redundant and repetitive to RP the scripts if you consent to play an addict. It should still be bad, you're an addict! I would not advocate softening the blow. But I think it could be made more amusing and flexible to RP the junkie.

The symptoms (nosebleeds, twitching, itching, shaking, drooling, sweating, aggression, confusion, etc) could probably be expressed in smoother ways that are more adaptable and less 'scripty' Some of them are totally good already, nothing wrong with just having an abrupt nosebleed, it just doesn't need to be so firmly set and detailed in how some are described. It's plenty awkward to have your limbs just suddenly start shaking and your face flush out or sweat starts pouring from your face.

An example of what I mean would be like.. having a period where every time you try to talk you do that *wheeze* thing. It clears up eventually, but it's set on a random timer, so you don't have the ability to just sit and wait for the script to run down or do that.. oh shit I feel a slap coming on *runs to other room* (which happens and makes things a little awkward..)

It's also flexible in that you're made to have a negative effect that you can't hide, but you can play it however you want, "uhh I need to work out more, *wheeze, twitch*... Fuck off okay, *wheeze twitch* do you have any dez on you?"

Or in the case of forced actions, instead of just having a canned script that runs and dictates you preform the same action every time, in exactly the same way (you say "exactly this exact thing" you slap 'nearest-guy' and give 'all-money' to 'nearest guy' etc.) some kind of inner thought for a cue, immediately followed by JUST the negative action, might be cleaner for RP.

like..

You think: all these fucking people are tools, fuck 'nearest-guy'. do you see how 'nearest-guy is looking at you right now?

*slap *

You feel so pissed off right now.

nearest guy: "HEY!? What the hell!"

"..I.. actually.. shit, sorry. Hrnng... I should go, sorry. Fuck. ARGH! Fuck."

"Fuck you! And you! And especially YOU! I am done with you people!"

"...Don't act like you don't know!" *cries* *runs away*

You think: "Did 'nearest-guy just put a pill pack in his pocket? He's got the goods!"

*steal (endo) from *

*rolls/fails*

nearest guy: "What the fucking fuck man?"

"Uhh I thought I saw a roach on your jacket.."

"..Give me the fucking endo you asshole! I know you have it!"

"Shit man.. tweaking really fucking hard.. I thought you were holding.. my bad."

Basically, a less structured/scripty method of making you you act like you have a serious problem, but leaving more freedom to determine why your characters junkie brain decided to be slapping and spitting, with inner cues to help you determine those reasons in a pinch. If you're playing a sobby type you can start to sob, If you're playing the angry type you can shout fuck all of you!! etc.

You also have some less awkward options to play off what just happened in the self-justifying, excuse-making, evasive way that junkies do, instead waiting for a script to run down.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

It's just too expensive, and the fact that Corpies can easily supply Mixers means there's just no incentive to make drugs on the Mixer side of things. Cheaper labs that required materials would sorta fix that, and the ability to use skill and ingenuity to refine, combine, or make certain drugs without a lab (using things like solvent or workstations like a kitchenette) might also help. A Mixer can't afford a Gus Fring operation, but they should be able to Jesse Pinkman a few things.

Drugs are also intimidating. The page on The Mind only very vaguely describes them, and they don't really have IC messaging for how the high feels as I understand it. Playing up the positive aspects and replacing the forced speech/actions on withdrawal with stuff that didn't feel like it was power-playing you would probably do a lot of good.

The scripted withdrawal actions/speech are an issue especially because not everyone speaks or responds the same way to the same stimuli. Saying "I'll get you off for a hit," is not how everyone would express that need and when mechanics force it to come out of the wrong mouth, I think the whole room can kind of get taken out of the moment.

As a noob I generally try to avoid the boards, but I can't resist weighing in on this.

I do not think the cost of the equipment should be lowered. Certainly, both the cost and the skills require commitment, but anyone, corpie or mixer, can reasonably save up for the current prices. To my thinking that is a major appeal of the profession - that competition may get heated, but will always be restricted to a few dedicated parties. An above poster mentioned people buying the kits to "dabble" in it - that is exactly what should be avoided.

I can't really speak to the frequency of "disaster" but hope that it would be relatively low, and limited to people who really lack the appropriate skills/stats, or to those fail to properly secure their equipment from other players.

I agree with the above comments, that there should be more IC incentive to take drugs. I noticed that recently the drugs page was updated with new information, which was helpful (kudos to whoever did that), but I think there could still be more guidance for how to roleplay them. I have seen some characters hallucinate like crazy off of TH, and others take lana or Ex like it's near nothing. Individual chemistry can excuse a lot of this, but the more guidance as to how drugs might typically make people behave, the better. Probably most of us are not experts at simulating uppers, hallucinogens, pain killers, etc. I also like the idea that withdrawal should make it harder to quit. OOCly it seems too easy to put up with withdrawal symptoms - the characters ought to be really miserable, and desperate for another high. Maybe the negative effects could gradually ratchet up over the period of withdrawal? A day or two of barely being able to function seems entirely appropriate for some varieties of candy. Or maybe this is already a thing I don't know about.

I have not ICly experimented with a lot of candy, but one thing I have noticed is that the effects do not seem to last nearly long enough. Character stats seem to return to normal maybe 10, 15 minutes after smoking a joint? To my way of thinking, most highs should last 1-6 hours, stat changes included. Maybe that marcy rush requires a more frequent bump, whereas lana highs come and go in waves all night long? Something like that.

As a last thought, I have no idea what premium gangers currently pay for higher qualities of candy, but I would think fiddling with that would be a particularly easy way to buff the profit margins of drug manufacturing.

My knowledge of the game is still pretty limited, but that's my two cents.

Was so caught up in all those ideas, I completely forgot the most important part - that there's always room for improvement, but I don't really see any big problems with the current system.

I know it's been announced that there's coding on the way to change the way drugs work and all, and I'd be very interested in seeing how that affects interest in production.

From personal experience, a lot of the reason I don't invest heavily into being a user of the fine array of recreational drugs is detrimental stat effects. If there's going to be a split between stat-affecting combat drugs and drugs for recreational/skill/rp use, I'm pretty sure myself and others would start using them more and prompting people to start saving their chyen for baby's first press/lab.

Changing it to a system where the initial investment is cheaper but it requires renewable resources to produce drugs is a good idea, but only if there's more of a draw to using drugs in the first place.

That's my honest onion, in any case.

Additionally, and this may be outside the scope of this thread, but addiction comes on much too quickly. Anyone who's done drugs IRL knows that your first bump of whatever might get you craving another, but getting into full-on addiction should take days. You shouldn't be able to take your first hit of weed (even really, really good Withmore weed) and instantly have your life crumble in your hands.

If addiction was something that had visible stages and ticked up at a reasonable but unpredictable rate, with each level being more intense and harder to claw your way out of, it might be more interesting. There's a big difference between someone who tries hallucinogens as an experiment, someone who rides uppers all weekend and shows up to work sober on Monday, and someone barely functioning in the throes of a painkiller addiction. They're all on the same track to the same place, sure, but right now it seems like we only have clean and sober and that last one.

Increase addiction threshold. One day my character took a small sip of a laced moloko and ended up with a crippling addiction that lasted weeks. This didn't really incentive me to take that drug ever again. I see that this is already a thing with certain drugs, specially those of lower-quality, but I feel like it still should be tweaked.

Reduce cost for drug manufacturing equipment. Many players want to jump into the candy biz but are simply unable to because the gear costs over six digits. Much like others have suggested, having a way to stock different limited supplies, each one serving as a part of a "recipe" for each different drug. I think the cost should be lowered but using the equipment if you're not skilled enough could have fatal effects, i.e., poisonous drugs after you slipped a number in your chemical formula, risk of a fire, "placebo" drugs, loss of supplies. This will ensure that anyone who's out there to get the monetary resources is able to jump into the market, but only the most skilled will prevail.

Improve the drug experience. Give players an idea of how they should RP their highs by pre-defined messages or hints about what does the drug make them feel. Improve in-MOO documentation of drug effects. Accompany lowered addiction threshold with longer-lasting effects (though I understand this may be affected by the drug's quality).