- Waiguoren_Guest 2m [Welcome to Sindome]
- Auslander_Guest 3m [Welcome to Sindome]
- Baron17 50s
- JustSomeGuy 10m
- Newbs21 6m We're all crazy here!
- Malakai 8m
- Selly 11m
- vantablack 18s
- RealHumanBean 9s Something?
- Marioanius 6m Hamilton wrote, the other 51!
- waddlerafter 1m
- PriceCheck 51m
- SolBro 14s
- villa 54s
- crashdown 6m
- Ghostinthekeys 2m
- DiamondNine 51s
- Tequilajoe 1m Vera is my mom
- coconut 3h
- Fire 1m https://i.imgur.com/CF2ywFy.jpg
- Storm 1m
- DEAD_P1XL 2s
- Rigo 1h
- Speccy 30s
- BCingyou 3m
- Hippo 56s
- Barrien 47m
- Malanth 41s
- jsmith225 22m
- Rangerkrauser 8h
a Cerberus 1d Head Builder & GM when I need to
- Chrissl1983 10h Really enjoying this awesome game to the fullest!
j Johnny 18h New Code Written Nightly. Not a GM.
And 36 more hiding and/or disguised
Connect to Sindome @ moo.sindome.org:5555 or just Play Now

People Bitching About Admin
Is it necessary?

We all know text is hard to interpret since everyone, including myself, respond/vocalize/perceive text in a number of different ways, thus why in this wonderful world of "on the web" we have taken simple keys to make them emotes or even use *'s to make little mimicking emotes. :)

Staff- They volunteer to put their time in, to add to the game. Got some beef with an NPC? You are suppose to be treating them like PCs anyway. Handle it like you would in a PC to PC IC way. Staff are people, this isn't a game you buy, this is a game that comes out of their pocket if you want to look at costs/emotions, hell everything that goes into the *freetime* they offer up to this recess.

Players- You get treated as you treat others. Grade school stuff here. What happens IC, can be handled IC. This is after all happening to your character not you. I can admit I have gotten more than a little pissed off at a number of things IC just from getting so wrapped up in my character. I have had her over a year and have rage quit... thrown my computer... done some IC actions that really aren't in my characters nature then once I was calm talked it out. Even if an agreement isn't reached, it doesn't matter. This game is a community in a way OOCly. We all cackle and cluck like a bunch of underfed horny hens that have been baked in the sun way too long and the approaches that come from it do come out wrong. We are humans we make mistakes. Best thing to do as a player? Log off cool down and try not to think about SD until you can talk about whatever it is without wanting to throw some midol at someone or better yet, choking them out with a tampon.

I can guarantee you don't know half of what goes on behind the scenes. Not even a fourth. With how big the player base is compared to the number of admin that are available at any given time, not to mention the various other things going on that isn't about plots in the making.

If you can form a complete thought that doesn't come off as attacking, the staff can and will respond to the vibe that you give them. As soon as you start attacking in any matter it comes as something way more personal than it should've probably been from your end, not saying they are perfect either. We are, after all, all just human... Except for a few..maybe..

Been thinking about this. Is there any way or form of transparency the admin can give that we can share publically? Maybe something we can put on the FB site or youtube. Something about a day in the life of an admin...or a sample of an (old) plot that was built...editing would be necessary, sure. But even just admin bios could help humanize the people behind the admin curtain.

If nobody likes to put their name or face into it, perhaps a written note about what SD means to each admin, or what they get out of being such a huge contributor in a volunteer manner.

There are lots of GM sites out there which would probably love to hear these perspectives as well, on their forums. Spreading the SD name to those forums could attract new high-quality GMs that relate to what they all do. At a minimum, it's a good way to get support from others who care about GMing well.

From a general perspective, GMs/Staff on MU* tend to get to deal with the following types of people:

The Victim - These people take -everything- personally, to the utmost extremes. Questioning the validity of actions, both on the parts of other players as well as the GMs is a regular thing for them. When things don't go their way, they will attempt to guilt trip the aforementioned involved parties into doing what they want.

The "Tester" - These guys are pretty clear-cut min-maxers. They're mostly concerned with mechanical stats and how they can get one up on other players to support a role they decided at the beginning would be above the rest. They could be either good or terrible roleplayers, but they will almost always lean upon mechanics they have tooled their characters for to resolve their conflicts.

The "Just a Heads Up" Guy - These are the people that feel like they need to help police the MU*. Sometimes they are genuinely helpful, but most of the time, their attentions seem to be focused upon players/characters that bring them distress, while their friends, or those who actively provide a benefit to their characters are miraculously free of any wrongdoing.

The Former Staffer - These are guys that (pretend to) have been around the block. They're here to tell you how things should be, and how you can make things better for the players and yourself. They will often be around to point out any issues you probably already discussed with the rest of the staff (because they're obvious). Long emails filled with suggestions typically come from these guys. They tend to have a pretty short fuse, and will get very defensive when their opinions are criticized.

That's just a few examples of the types of problem players I've encountered in my time as a wizard/gm/staff on other MU* and MMORPGs.

I'm Linekin. It's pronounced "Linn", not "Line".

I'm just a guy. I have a job and a family and a house, and this is my entertainment. I started playing Sindome on an iPad in the dark on my back at a time when my baby boy needed to be held on my chest to sleep at night. That ruled out all my other entertainment: Movies, television, video games, books.

Ha. Guess what. Dozens of months later, this is still it.

I was probably the first player to register for the game from what was then the brand-new web client. It was a day old, or less. I experienced a bug which prevented registration from working, and getting that fixed and getting into the game was my first interaction with Johnny.

I played Sindome for about a year and a half before responding to invitations to apply for adminship.

For a long time I didn't do it, even when approached personally and asked about my interest level, for some different reasons, starting with "OMG what will it do to my play time!?"

But I volunteered and applied in March of this year, responding to a MOO-wide shout from Slither, again for some different reasons, starting with, "My time zone has little GM support and I'm not the only one who sometimes is frustrated over that."

So I dared to step up. It's giving back.

I had experience with tabletop/PnP game mastering before, but this was the first online RPG I tried it in.

Now I play and I GM too.

Admin work is hard but it's usually fun, rewarding regardless, and has presented RP opportunities I'd never have had on a regular PC, or even a series of them.

As a player was told over XHELP recently, here's an extremely small peek into what it's like: For every line you see coming from the MOO on your Own character, an admin might see ten lines. Or twenty. Depending what they're doing, what players are doing, and how many puppets the GM is playing.

Beyond that, there's OOC stuff which has to be dealt with. Some of it is hard because a given admin can't always fix everything which players might XHELP about.  Some of it is hard because a given player might abuse XHELP, or ignore admin instructions, or refuse to "get it" and continue negative gameplay or OOC behavior way past the point where the admin and, honestly, let's face it, everybody in the entire game has time to spend on it.

That's right. A problem player's problem isn't just between them and a given admin. it isn't just between them and all admins. It affects the entire game, and that is the reason that consequences for not heeding warnings, not changing behavior from negative to positive, or at LEAST to neutral, are dramatic. When admin time is vampired by attention seeking, inflexible and/or abusive players, the good of the game has to come first. When it gets personal, that's even worse.

Show of hands: If I find myself in a situation where some player has just drained me of energy, focus and love, what would players in general want me to do? Use a policy and a tool to put a stop to that? Or take my ball, go home, and leave my GM seat unattended for however long?

Lena, I started this as a response to you. The overall thead is a little pointed, though, so, I indulged myself in addressing that part too.

HottFoxx, thanks for the praise and the defense. Enough intense shit has happened lately that this is a worthwhile conversation to have.

I actually HAVE taken a break from logging in as admin due to the feeling that I can't GM with love. And I will again if I have to. Most of the time I don't care if some player thinks I'm the one being toxic. I've got my own heart. But I also do not have to take pointless, loud, spammy, unrelenting, negative, accusatory, insulting, clueless, intoxicated, time consuming, attention whoring, or any other kind of shit from a toxic player. Removing myself is one option. One.

The other admin don't have to take it either, and I defend them.

How about that show of hands?

Thanks, Sindome players.

I actually HAVE taken a break from logging in as admin due to the feeling that I can't GM with love.

<3 Linekin. Please come back revived.

Ha, thank you.

I didn't mean "as of now", this was a month or so ago. But thanks.

I should also be clear that that absence (4 or 5 days) wasn't because of problems with anyone here at the MOO. I didn't mean to give that impression, At All.

General mental health vacation, is all that was. The point I meant to make was that I do have a sense of self which lets me know when I feel like I am not doing it the way I feel like I'm supposed to be, and, I came back when I felt like I was over a hump and could count on myself to once again leave at the door some negativity and touchiness which no one here needed to be subjected to.

I was also trying to be rhetorical and let what the other options are go unstated. Ragequitting over player difficulties really isn't a good one.

Thanks for the insight provided in your post, Linekin. And for telling me how to pronounce your staff name correctly. My character's name ends in 'e' but is pronounced 'a'. Got it from a female character name in Deus Ex: invisible war.

my vote is for the second option - taking a pause. It's hard to pull away from the game, and it hurts the RP for a bit. But my job forces these things on me sometimes...and sometimes I do them for my own sanity. It's made me a believer in its effectiveness.

Some of you who have played with me before know that it has hampered my ability to be involved in big plots, to be reliable to groups/teams, and to show up for big events. But it means I always come back...eventually. And I keep coming back for fun, not because I feel so emotionally tied to my character's welfare or the IC events that I will get worked up (usually...no, I'm not perfect).

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

Just found this article/data set about Player Life Cycles...applicable here, and probably good for all Players & Admin. Will be digging more into this research project for myself. http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001646.php

Bear with the MMORG-specific terms...

1) Starting: The player has just started playing the game and everything is new and exciting.

2) Ramping Up: The player has learned the basics and is now busy progressing through the content (whether leveling or crafting). They have a sense of where they want to be and are heading for that goal.

3) Mastery: The player is at the higher-end of the game and is either well-situated in a guild and doing raids, or happily soloing high level quests, or competing in PvP content.

4) Burn Out: The player feels like they’ve done everything they can do in the game, or they are beginning to feel burned out from all the raid and social obligations from their guild. They wonder where all the fun went.

5) Casual / Recovery: The player has figured out a way to play the game without burning out. They may be doing intermittent raids, logging in casually to play with friends, casually leveling alts, etc.

What it doesn't talk about...is what causes a player to leave.

On my iPad, so I may sound a bit clipped.

Many of the things Linekin posted, I am guilty of. They weren't intentional, but they nevertheless happened and I think it happens the same way for other guilty parties. Until staff finally gives you a good verbal clunk on the head (or a temp ban, in my case), it's easy to not realize how staff may perceive and feel about your actions. How they may feel abused or otherwise mistreated, even if you didn't mean for thqt to happen. You become more considerate when you realize this and make an effort to correct your behavior, and everyone's happier for it.

We all have our occasional periods of negativity, players and staff alike. I became overwhelmed recently between a review of my disability benefits and the sad death of my grandmother. The result? I was on edge and wasn't considerate about my words. Rather than take a breath, I started a fight which led to the aforementioned ban. Nothing teaches you to appreciate Sindome and the hard work of its staffers quite like being cut off and having nothing else to do (hurrah disability). I don't believe for a moment that staff is cruel, but they will certainly make certain that the lesson gets across if they feel they have no other choice. Correct yourself and learn to be diplomatic before you end up going through that.

I personally regret a great many things I did which were not in staff's favor. When you decide that a character is done, you may well ruin hard work they've been doing to plot for you. Arguiing against their advice (or worse, their orders as game staff) only disrespects them and intensifies the sense of bitching/intolerability when staff looks at you. That one was probably most relevant to me; until I learned my lesson with this recent ban, not having the game for an escape during difficult times, I always had a retort to things I was told. I've learned to just respect staff's wants and leave them be save in the very rare cases when they are absolutely required, and facor utilizing IC resources instead. Staff's plate is super full, and I'm sure those IC methods destress staff somewhat by letting them attend to things in their own time

In short, until it was knocked into my head, I didn't see how my conduct was harmful to staff and my words may have been unnecessary or interpreted in a way not intended due to text. Play, do as many things through IC channels as you can, and make sure something really needs to be handled by staff before you XHELP or leave a note. For example, I have to work with staff on new characters to get set up in my permapad, but I could speak to a NPC (assuming there's no relevant PC) to see whether staff animates it and therefore has some time in their schedule to work with your character.

A bit long winded, but I hope this helps some players avoid the consequences I'm dealing with. In turn, staff will feel less bitched at and stressed, and will be more inclined to give of their time to your needs.

I wish we could give the players a true idea of what it's like to be an admin. It really is one of those things that you can't accurately describe. You have to experience it yourself.

Suffice to say, whatever you imagine it being like, it is ten times more difficult and the scroll is very much more intense than you imagine.

Let me step through the 5 or so hours (out of 8 i've been online) that I've been actually working on MOO today.

8:00AM. Sign on.

Step through all new admin left notes.

Step through all new player left notes.

Step through all new MOOMails

Step through all new character creations

Step through all history denials

Denied a poorly written history

.

Answer a players xhelp

Help a player learn how to do something they should ICly know how to do

Set up Bank account for REDACTED corporation

Set up Budget for REDACTED corporation

Begin writing a series of test questions for admin training (this continues throughout the day though I will only mention it here) -- 40 questions today, multiple choice

Speak with multiple admin on various forms of media to organize an all-staff meeting that works time wise for all the admin across basically every time zone in the world.

Begin writing a series of code for the MOO for adding/deleting test questions from a test database, for admin training

Spoke with player on xhelp about potential bug

Spoke with builder staff member about a perma-pad being built

Puppeted an NPC for a player

Spoke with player on xhelp

Left note about interaction

Spoke with Staff on Staff Chat about All Staff Meeting

1.5 hours of training of new admin in various verbs and admin tools for promoting RP

Answered a gridmail

Posted Globe article

Left note on Gridmail interaction

Spoke on bit-chat at length with fellow admin about various MOO-related subjects

Spoke with semi-active admin about potential return

Reviewed more notes

Spoke with player on xhelp about lack of description

Left note about interaction

Did a think for a player based on their think

Put time into agenda for all-staff meeting

Tracking down another bug issue with REDACTED issue

Spoke with player on xhelp about potential bug

Did a think for a player based on their think

Spoke with Johnny Off-Moo about Admin testing

Training new admin on how to Answer Gridmails

Helped a player on Game-Help

Reviewed this post

3PM: Spent 30 minutes drafting this response

I've probably missed a few things, but this about a typical day for me. Not a ton of RP. Mostly operations stuff. Stuff that needs to be done for the game to continue running smoothly.

I'm currently doing a lot of work on the armor for the game. This accounts for a lot of maths.

So I pass most of the time reviewing code to see how it works, trying to understand and calculate all the probabilities related to armor. Pestering Johnny and Slither to code me shit so I can start validating the numbers I came up with.

There are several rounds of testing before the numbers come to a ready position.

Currently we're evaluating and validating armor layering so we can extrapolate weight to defense ratio.

I've been doing this for the past couple of months and now I'm already creating test armor so I can test things. By the end of the process I usually document everything and put the logic behind the numbers on a widely available document.

Weapons re-factoring took over 8 months of my free time and some of my sanity.

Here is a very out of context piece of the weapons progression study:

Ans as for scope: All armor will be redone.

You know what my biggest issue is, and maybe the players can weigh in here.

I do things for Sindome that I do not find fun. Look up to my post above and you can probably tell -- not a lot of that stuff is bringing me enjoyment.

So, you may ask yourself -- why does he do it? -- well, for the same reason I have always done it. I want more players, I want more code, I want more lore and in game stuff and RP and plots and everything that goes with that. Why? Because I enjoy -playing- Sindome.

As a player.

Is there some rule that says oh, after you've been an admin you are no longer allowed to play the game? Am I not allowed to reap the benefits of my THOUSANDS of hours of hard work? I mean, think about that. I on average, GM for about lets say, 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. In the past it's been much more, but then there are times where it was less. So let's call it 15 hours a week (a low ball, honestly). For OVER EIGHT YEARS.

So that's 15 x 52 x 8 == 6240.

If say, I had been spending that time working it would be equal to about: $405,600 USD at the $65 an hour I bill my clients.

Is any one of you going to tell me that it's not okay for me or ANY OTHER ADMIN, that I cannot or should not play?

You guys like having puppets right? And well trained staff? And plots? An new areas? And new code? And an updated website? And bugs being fixed? And all that stuff?

Well, I, like almost all the other admin, like PLAYING. It's my main motivation behind all the work I put in. To have an active, fun world to play my god damn characters.

Do you think I -want- IC info that my character wouldn't have? Do you think I enjoy having ZERO mystery regarding stats and skills? Do you think that I purposefully and willingly utilize my OOC knowledge to benefit my character ICly? WHAT WOULD THE POINT OF PLAYING BE? I like the CHALLENGE that Sindome offers. I am my own characters biggest enemy.

Everything bad that has happened to any of my characters has most likely been started by ME. To give myself a bigger challenge. Lost memory. A missing arm. Respecing with 800UE instead of the MAX ue that my character had earned. Purposefully walking into traps or ambushes that I OOCly knew about because I wasn't sure if I would have figured it out ICly or not. Even when there was a strong chance I would have.

So, by a show of hands, who has a problem with me or ANY OTHER ADMIN playing the game and enjoying it? Who, of you players, has contributed more than an admin? Who thinks that admin and their characters should be SECOND CLASS, and always come AFTER the players? Who thinks that the people that work the HARDEST should get to enjoy the game the LEAST?

I guess the issue is all about perception...

Let me prefix this all with a disclaimer so nothing can be misread or misinterpretation. In no way am i defending abuse of the GMs at all. They all volunteer time to the game and community and don't deserve abuse in anyway and everyone should be thankful of anyone that freely gives up their time and effort to make this game better, be they johnny , admin or the player that helps with descriptions or even just plays a mean SD character and takes the time to create great @nakeds, generates RP and generally is a credit to the community.

To my eyes there are 4 main human factors at play here that are causing issue for a small % of the players.

1. SD is not like any other game out there and bucks the trend of most modern games. By this i mean that most new players i believe are not ready for the fact that unlike other games they may have experienced, there is no nice linear leveling / progression curve with SD.. SD is great and unique and wonderful because it doesnt have a guarantee of satisfaction, it doesnt lead you down the road of your character enjoying super hero status straight away (or ever).. You are not going to automatically get the best gear and always gain experience and always come out on top winning. If you are three weeks in to a character and bitching about why you havent gotten all the uber equipment and why you have won SD yet.. then news flash ! this isnt that sort of game!! no matter how hard you RP your ass off you cant win.. you wont have everything go your way and your are not entitled to shit... players should and do get where they get because they earn it in game and not because they turn up!. So in summary Kudos to SD for being different but we as a community (both GMs and Players) are going to suffer a bit when it takes new players awhile to get these facts and enjoy SD for what it is.

2, SD sucks you in and if your doing it right(?) then you are going to get emotionally attached to your character, its success and failure is going to affect you as a player.. Part of this i believe is that its quite a slow burn game. Inherently you start off with nothing and as in point 1.. it takes a lot of time (3ue a day) and a lot of work to get places and anything significant in-game.. this is a good thing.. but also means that we have to understand that even the most balance player is occasionally going to give in to momentary frustration when all their hardwork, carefully laid plans and brilliant idea has fallen flat on its arse and its not worked out.. We are all just human and we have to recognize that sometimes we are going to get to deep into it and lash out.. part of this is players policing themselves and partly its the community policing each other.. There is still zero excuse for abusing other players or GMs at all.. zero.. none.. zip.. nada.. but we do need to recognize when someone has gotten too deep and bring em aroud again.. Top tip, whilst i havent been playing that long.. something that helps me through the dark periods is faith.. faith in the karmic balance of things.. both direct GM intervention (as im pretty sure they are clued up on this shit) and also other players in game things nearly always work out in the end.. just remember that next time you fail and things go wrong.. you loose that new thing you been saving for for ages.. you get killed on the way to clone update and loose a week.. that person that you been working on for ages drops out or goes over to the enemy.. or you are randomly affected by someone else RP.. just remember.. Roll with it.. if need by take 5 mins in ooc land .. chill out and get back in there. it will work out in the end!!!.. In the meantime dont lash out at others (especially the GMs that may or may not have taken the time to create some RP for you .. thats time and effort kids that they have freely given to give you some attention..appreciate it) ..... shit happens be an adult and get on with it.. its not a conspiracy.. you are not being picked on.. game on!!

3. The plans we lay for our characters dont always work out.. This is a two way point really.. the beauty of the game is that we crate characters that we are invested in.. we have hopes and dreams for them. we embody them with thoughts feelings, motivations and personality.. Now sometimes there is going to be clashes between what you want for you character and what the GMs or other players have in mind.. The crux of the matter is that in my experience most (if not all of the time) if you let the GMs know how you want your character to deal with the obstacle they have put in your way they will roll with it... GMing is hard.. very hard.. they might have this massive elaborate idea of a cool RP session involving lots of threads all working together and fun for all.. but what they cant do is control what we players do.. They might present you a challenge and the only way you can see out of it is to break something out of character that totaly goes against what you feel your character would or could do.. my advice. explain this.. open dialogue.. leave a @note that your not comfortable.. make a suggestion .. work with them.. Having said that.. this is the mix.. this is cyber punk.. bad shit happens to good people and the fun is dealing with it.. your character is not going to get out of this alive.. nor are they going to get out of this with their hands clean and smelling of roses.. In my experience the more info and flesh you COMMUNICATE with the GMs.. (they arent mind readers) the more they are going to work with you and help create challenges and tailor RP to your character and their motivates etc...

4, Justice and faith... The number one reason why i think people flip out is they think shit isnt fair. That sense of injustice is one of the biggest kickers we humans have.. and most its brought on through ignorance and misunderstanding..... so i have two points to make on that.. firstly unless you are bless/cursed with the view of the GMs you have no idea what everyone else is going through or dealing with or overcoming.. true there are certain in bulit inequalities in the game. be them unchangeable (timezone based) or player choice (corpie vs mixer) this is part of life and the game. no one ever said things are going to be fair.. your an adult deal with it.. But in regards to the GMs and their interactions.. you either have faith in all the work and time and effort these guys and girls put in or you don't and its time for you to take a break or find a new game..

Having been through a small part of the GM interview process i personally believe that they really put in effort to recruit stable / reasonable and genunue GMs that have the best interests of the game and community at heart. Sure we are all only human and people make mistakes and can be influenced but on the whole the whole setup of the community, game, GMs and Johnny balances everything out in the end.. so again, suck it up.. deal with it and game on.. Time to time you will be on the loosing end.. time to time big changes are happening that seem unfair form your pov but are part of a larger thing and a shit load of work and balancing is happening behind the scenes..its all going to work out in the end..

So in summary just be patient.. have faith and remember its just a game...

As always just my two chyen.. please feel free to ignore my comments rather than be upset by them as this is just my ramblings..

I agree with a lot of that, aside from the communication with GMs part. Yes, we want to hear from you but no, we don't want notes every time something doesn't go your characters way or you run into a problem. Notes should be left to update us on what your character has done or plans to do. Not as a way of telling the admin you are pissed of because XYZ happened and OMG how are you going to deal with it.

Take it from someone who is challenged very little ICly by other players or GMs. This game is all about the challenge. Relish it.

Don't expect things to work out in your favor ICly. Don't expect karama to ICly come back around and punish the bad man that hurt you.

You, the player, are karma. Someone fucks you over? Fuck back. Someone kills you? Kill back. Someone out maneuvers you in someway? Learn from it and do better next time. That is the essence of Sindome. IC problems should be dealt with ICly, OOC problems, OOCly.

Now back to my point. Some people think it's not fair that GMs play alts. Why don't those people step up and make their opinions heard. Tell me, and the playerbase as a whole, in public, instead of behind our backs or to one specific admin, how it's not fair that admin have alts. Or how we should just, you know, not play the game. Or how we can't be trusted to not utilize IC info we got from being GMs to benefit our characters. Or, how this extremely RARE but sometimes needed case is unfair: a GM alt starts with certain gear or a job or some other thing that is meant to ENABLE RP for other players, instead of forcing the GM to go through a long process that takes other GMs time away from puppeting for YOU and gets them set up with what they need so that the character can make an impact NOW -- considering the only reason the character was created in the first place was to enable players RP. Puppeting NPCs can suck, there is a lot of scroll. Sometimes admin want a break. Sometimes there is a character that needs to be fleshed out and sometimes I personally do that by creating a PC, playing them for a month and getting their personality down, their history, their stats (from UE earned), their career, their enemies and their goals all set up. Then we convert that PC into an NPC. This has been done numerous times with great success. But no, all the sudden players are complaining. You know who you are. I won't call you out publicly but I will ask that ANYONE with a problem with how I GM, or anyone GMs, or anyone that has an issue with GMs enjoying the game and getting a little BACK for their hard work -- stop back biting, stop complaining to each other, stop talking to one admin or another about it and let's have a public conversation where everyone can see, about how the GMs don't deserve to play. Or should have even MORE restrictions put on their play style. Maybe GM alts shouldn't be allowed to kill at all? Or maybe we should just stop them from being able to be involved in more than cursory RP? Maybe we just make it so they can't talk at all? What do you think?

I think you all should be able to play like everyone else. I know I've not been a player for very long, but you guys seem very nice and willing ot help everyone. It's not fair that you guys don't get the same respect as other players sometimes. that's my two cents.

There's not much else I can say that hasn't been said before, but I will try to speak my mind briefly:

The mods have as much right to play the game as you do, period.

They are not asked any more than it is of you. The fact that they /have/ the power to do so does not mean they will do so: Sure, they might create "an OP" character with some extra gear or UE: But that is only made to further up your experience with the game! YOU are the one that is winning here, and bitching at such will surely not improve the opinion the staff have of you nor your enjoyment.

They take hours of their free time to do things we don't imagine they do, only to improve the experience and playability (?) of the game, and they are not even paid.

All in all; why shouldn't they be able to play their own characters? If they were abusive users they probably wouldn't even be admins in the first place, so chillax people :)

Without taking this off topic and not wanting to seem to be arguing a point, however I would like clarification on one point. More for my own perception and perspective.

Specifically around the point I raised and slither disagreed. Now don't get me wrong I was not suggesting that players bitch and moan about bad things happening to their characters. As I pointed out that should be a given. The point and now question I raise is..

Is it reasonable to be under the perception that in the case of a player having their character interact in rp that would strictly against the wishes of what they believe would be radically out of character and therefore character breaking for them to communicate this with the gms to resolve it. Now I'm talking about for example a clear instance where it's player and npc event rp to discuss this. Say for example a player has been carefully creating at some difficulty a non violent character and the npc character has forced them into an attacking situation. As we all part of creating the story of our characters , surely there is scope to talk this out. Come to an alternative that may or may not have other consequences or penalties...Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you should bitch and try and wriggle out of every obsticle and sometimes there will be clear and obvious reasons why you might be being forced into a certain action. All I'm suggesting is that dialogue be possible if this action being enforced would become character breaking?

This is after all shared story telling and we are within the confines of the rules, Other players and realms of realism meant to be defining the morals, goals, paths and fate of our characters in colaboration with the other players and gms. .

Hopefully this is a reasonable assumption and question and not deemed argumentative.

Also just to be really clear. I'm not saying that this applies all the times. It's an extreme case that I raise this point of trying to find alternatives to a character breaking moment. I know first hand that a lot of in game gm generated rp events it's been my experience that the gms are as I said great at rolling with my random solutions to the problems and obsticle I have been blessed with them setting me. I merely raise the points that

A. we are all to a limited degree telling the story of of character and

B. in extreme circumstances dialogue should be in my opinion open. And I imagine that it is in most cases.

Again this is only my perception and ramblings.

This has gotten off-topic but I will address it. I see no reason why someone, be it another player or an NPC, attacking your character, has to be game breaking. Don't want to fight? Not IC for your character to fight? 'stop attacking' and take the beating like a pacifist.

I don't understand why this would require a note, a game pause, an xhelp. It could all be handled ICly.

stop attacking

shout please! i wont fight you!

shout I am a pacifist!

And hope you don't get your neck snapped.

If you want to continue to talk about this, please create a different thread for it.

Let's get back onto the topic of people thinking that admin are slaves, or not people, or somehow, shouldn't be allowed to play and enjoy the game. Because that is what causes the most grief for me and the GMs -- and it is what I hear the most bitching about from players.

Aight I'm just going to say one thing here and it is about consent. If any RP is not deemed acceptable to you or your character, like someone posing/emoting and putting your character's reaction on the pose itself. Or be it using poses/emotes that you would not take part on like kissing, holding hands, shaking hands, hugging, grabbing body parts, or any others that a reflex reaction could stop it you can:

a) Pose right after interposing your reaction/reflex action or attempt to stop it.

b) Talk about it on local OOC saying something like "Hey, my char wouldn't let you do this..."

But doing nothing for the whole event when things happened denotes consent. And complaining only after consequences to those actions happen as a continuation of the RP is considered bad form and will be taxed as whining by me.

We expect all players to be ready for IC reactions for their IC actions. If you piss off a ganger on SIC, they might come and get you later. If you drink the water from the pool on the floor you'll get sick. If you join into ganking a guy with friends and he survives, he might come back with his gang to kick your ass back.

You should not take part on those kinds of RP and expect just for the first part to happen...

I'm going to give my opinion on what Slither is addressing here. I'm currently typing this response at 5am, so if something comes out a little unclear, I apologize in advance.

GMs: They put in alot of work on things that just aren't fun for them, specifically for the point of advancing the game so that they can get to something they do enjoy out of it. There is -alot- of research that goes into GMing for a game that has been around for 15+ years. There are many factions, many NPCs and many entities that the average player has no clue even exist. GMs research all of this in order to keep as much consistency as possible with each successive puppet. I was an admin for a time, it became too much like doing chores for me and it got to the point that I couldn't even enjoy playing my own character. Partly because of the OOC knowledge I had of what all was going on, partly because while I was trying to play my character, there was still work to be done on the other side. I went on a hiatus for a few weeks, not logging in and not telling anyone what was going on with me. I needed that break.

I'm getting off track here.. The point being, GMs need something they can look forward to and not just be drones behind the veil. They are not paid. So if playing their own PC allows them to get that enjoyment, there is no reason -ANY- person attached to this game should have a problem with that.

You can say, "Oh, well they have knowledge that other players don't so that's not fair." "They get the good gear first just because they are admin." "They are cheating because of Xreason or Yreason" STOP!

GMs police themselves as much as they pay attention to the players. If something is purely beneficial to an admin's alt, that shit doesn't fly on -that- side of the screen, so players on -this- side of the screen need not bother themselves with wondering about it. The OOC knowledge that GMs have? Each one of them is -VERY- good at keeping it separate from their character. They get enough practice at it from puppeting the many, various NPCS.

I will also say this. During my time on the other side of the screen, the thing I noticed was: those same admin alts, are the ones who generated the most RP for other players. Consistently. Maybe they got some things first, but that's so it becomes available to the public and players -KNOW ITS THERE-.

This ended up being a little more long winded than I intended, so in conclusion.

Should admin have the right to play and enjoy their own characters? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY! Should they be labelled cheaters, meta, powergamers or not be allowed to have a character at all? HELL NO! If that's how you feel about our admin, cut them a fair paycheck for all the hard work they do (maybe not $65/hour :P) Then and only then, would you have any right to try to take away why they fell in love with SD in the first place.

Yea.. my two chy.. dont like it? Eat a dick!

I agree with just about every point Swashbuckler made and it covers exactly how I feel in an easier to read, more concise format than I would have been able to come up with on my own.

@etc:

Which one of these personality types are the GMs? Aren't they all, after all, players first?

Which personality type is your 'target audience'? SD may not have a 'customer', but they do have a stated audience, right? The ones we want to have stick around, some day make their own contributions to the game, perhaps even become GMs?

@Slither:

If all the players who think & act like a GM become a GM, the world of SD will have no players that can be looked at as impartial when it comes down to the inevitable arguments between players and staff. Shouldn't there be someone on both sides of the fence who has the respect of the other side and can be reasoned with?

Are SD's GMs 'Game Masters' or 'Game Moderators'?

Shouldn't there be someone on both sides of the fence who has the respect of the other side and can be reasoned with?

I have two reactions to this.

First, there may be players who don't believe this, but the reality is, "Players Vs GM's" isn't really a thing, because GMs really can and do watch each other and call each other on each other's shit. GMs are also much better than players are at removing their own personal self from a given conflict with a given player and letting the other GMs handle it. We're better at it because we have to be, and we hand things over because we can. Individual players don't have either the need to do it (she only has to manage her own self, not a whole game) or the tools to do it (there isn't a 'players committee' aligned opposite the so called fence from the collective GMs).

Second, there is another pole missing from this two-sided picture, even if we go with the 'fence has two sides' metaphor. I don't know if Johnny -wants- to be this third pole, but, I know the GMs respect and trust Johnny to do this, and I believe that the players on the whole do too. Maybe it's not perfect, and maybe someone or the other winds up not getting exactly what they want when Johnny has to step in and tell everyone how it's going to be, but, what happens most often is that everyone winds up better off once the conflict is closed this way.

The groups of problem players I listed above aren't meant to be

all-encompassing. They are the types of people you can find on just about any

game that is actively managed by a team of individuals that interact directly

with the playerbase. It's not meant to describe -all- players, or any of the

GMs, and if it seemed that way, I apologize.

Believe me. I don't think the GMs are saints, but every GM I've had some sort

of problem with at one time or another has also shown me that they can be

pretty awesome. What some people don't know, or tend to forget, is that when

you find yourself basically doing work on a game you would otherwise be

playing for fun, and you're constantly subjected to criticism from multiple

parties, stress builds up. When you're wound up pretty tight and you find

yourself dealing with another stressful situation, 'kind and patient' probably

isn't your first reaction to someone doing the equivalent of shouting in your

face. Same deal with the GMs. A lot of people go through life shouting at

employees of stores, restaurants, or other businesses, because it usually gets

them what they want. It doesn't work like that here, or on any other game with

unpaid staff. It's going to get you the exact opposite, actually. The GMs

don't have a paycheck coming in to keep them from doing the equivalent of

slapping you silly for shouting in their face.

If you're upset about something, there are other ways to show it without

pointing an accusing finger at the GMs.

I'm just coming back to SD after a bit-over-a-year hiatus. And, the entire time I wasn't playing (due to RL circumstances; by no means a lack of desire to play SD) I was thinking about when I could start playing again.

My point - that kind of anticipatory reaction to a text-based game is purely, completely and unequivocally due to GMs and their ability to draw us as players into a world that leaves us breathless. It may also invoke anger, fear, frustration...but, hey. Responding to a GAME with emotion is a symptom that only comes from a GAME that draws you in so completely. And that is an awesome thing!

A few points from earlier posts:

If someone is Admin...I am pretty sure they are mature enough (not to mention dedicated enough) to NOT muck up story lines for their own sense of personal gain. If anything, they probably get enjoyment from watching their 'creation' come to fruition. And being enjoyed by the masses.

And, regarding the 'GM versus Player' scenario. I don't think there should be that view by any player. GMs -are- players. They're just players that make -your- game more enjoyable. At the expense of their own playtime and personal enjoyment.

Thanks to all you guys that put in so much effort and know that its appreciated.

@Swashbuckler's Nov 5th post - Well said.

Anyways, this is a great thread. I know it's from a month back, but I wanted to give my two hundred chy on a few things. Maybe help some of the new characters I see signing up? (Yay!)

The GM's are Aces / Great.

This is a good community of people.

Creating characters that then become NPC's is interesting and a great concept.

Creating characters (alts) to RP with is a great idea.

And yes, GM's work their asses off and should play.

As for meta? I have had the pleasure of talking to a variety of puppetted characters and possible alts in a decent variety of situations and meta isn't done. They will even double check sometimes if that puppet/alt knows something or not.

Now, really, it doesn't matter what characters are npc's/alts because they *all* are characters and can be so interesting to observe and RP with. And GM's SHOULD have characters / alts around. (Hell, tabletop GM's create characters / npc's for groups.)

PLUS, each character ("npc") has been unique and a lot of fun to observe, from snarky and snarly, to loud, to quiet and looking down their little corpie noses. :)

The interactions are RP and that's what the situations are, Roleplaying.

Plus, this is the dark future. Cyberpunk. The world is shit. People are shit, and many are drugged up in one way or another. People in general, here in present time, wouldn't give a shit if they know you or not, or if things don't go your way. Who are you? No one.

In 85 years? Darker with more shit.

(Darker & Cyberpunk = more RP instances if you make yourself available to them.)

As a player, understand that this isn't your normal game. No 'levels', no multi-realms (unless you look at the various areas in Withmore as 'realms'), no starting gear. Just like REAL LIFE. You want something, good. Go get it.

Stop your god-damned bitching . (You have a *valid* grief, it can be brought up, but knock off the consistent bitching. The GM's and community doesn't need that.)

Your character's here (Withmore) for a reason. Get the contacts, gear, etc. to get your goals, or at least try. Create a history and have fun. :)

(As I stated, this is a great thread. Thank you to ALL who put in their time creating rooms, places, items, etc. and RP.)

In response to this:

"Stop questioning the fucking GMs like you control the story OOCly or I'll log on just to newt your ass. Do not backseat GM. Do not ask specific admin like you can fucking choose who will GM for you."

Chad... You know me very well. I try to avoid conflict. And YES I know I do bitch and whine. But my email got read wrong.

Like I said I was trying to say this

"I think this all cane wrong let me try again:

•If its possible I would have liked a honest player to GM heartfelt talk. But that's out. Okay. I respect that. Fair enough.

•I am confused. Why is a Total Recall like inspiration out but A Beautiful Mind, which is extremely fictional on real Schizophrenia, was voted in. This makes no sense to me. But I respect GM. I don't want an argue or a fight. I -want- to work with you guys.

•I was not ransoming my RP. I said I give up. Not I quit. I never said I quit at all or that I'd stop RPing and I believe not being lucid enough that came real wrong. What I'm trying to say is: I am tired of fights. So I am -validating- only what has been validated by GM's. Honoring the RP and mind wiping myself to be normal again. Because I was trying to spice the RP but it backfired..."

I just wanted to spice the RP and I generated tons of RP with my story. Furthermore I discussed this with you about the Total Recall/My Worst Enemies like ideas and you even stated that was very CP.

I was not putting any GM down. This kind of behavior pushes people away because I in no moment disrespected anyone for you to come guns blazing at me. Specially me whom you know tries his damn hardest to do the right thing. But my issues was frustration. I was frustrated because I wanted to do something real CP and denied of it.

GM's are to foster a playing environment for all players but I find my RP which generated tons of RP for others was not supported because a common trope of CP was not available to me. It was never my intention to ransom my RP. I wanted to stop RPing not because I was saying: I quit. But rather -I give up- in terms of doing my own RP and prefer to -work- with staff on a reasonable solution. -That- is what I was -trying- to do. -Find- a solution that was agreeable to GM's and me because I was not going to play something I did suffer as a teen due to the reasons stated. But willing to play something that was more in line with what GM's felt was appropriate. Which is what I am doing now.

I don't want anyone in SD mad at me, let alone you whom we have good talks. And whom you know I am big supporter of SD. And I don't mean money wise: I mean I go out there and try to get people interested in this game.

Never hated staff. Don't even hate them now. But they had a problem with me. Not the other way around. That email shows I was more than willing to work with Staff. All the way.