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Web Based Grid is Hard to Maintain
Do we need a MOO based grid instead?

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I don't normally start Game Problems & Complaints topics, but I have felt for a long time that the Web Based Grid is no longer a differentiator for Sindome. I'm interested in getting a discussion going on if it is a benefit to the game, or if we should consider an In-MOO grid.

There are obviously three options to consider:

1. Keep the Web Based Grid and do nothing

2. Rewrite the Web Based Grid In MOO and get rid of Web

3. Keeping the web based grid AND having a MOO based grid

Why do we have a web based Grid?

* We always have.

* It's a cool experience. It adds flavor.

* It introduces some interesting things like text formatting, images, and other things that we don't support in the MOO.

* It keeps players out of endless 'menus' you find yourself in when you use something like a terminal

* It removes a lot of the code and data from the MOO

* We didn't always have a MOO based SQL integration, so we couldn't keep this stuff in an external database

What are the downsides?

* Code lives in the MOO and code lives in the Node.js Grid App and int he Node.js Grid DB App

* Code is needlessly complex

* You need server access (just Johnny and Slither) to make changes to the Grid

* You need to know: HTML, CSS, Javascript/Node, Linux, Amazon Web Server, SQL, and more in order to make changes to the Node code

* It's unclear what Node code calls the MOO

* It's difficult to test

* It's difficult to code in

* Only Johnny and Slither can really code it

* You have to use a browser window

* It is not very accessible

* It isn't updated often

Slither's thoughts

At this point, I don't think the web based grid is a net positive. It's definitely a cool experience, but that is offset by the complete lack of integration with the MOO. It's like a totally different system.

We could recode the entire grid and all its functionality into the MOO, using the existing SQL database to store the data. It would take 20-40 hours -- but then it would exist in the MOO and any coders on the game could make changes to it.

I feel this would accelerate adding of new features, making deckers for viable in the long term, and make the code in general more maintainable.

I am not 100% opposed to keeping the web based grid but having it be more 'read only' like you wouldn't go in there to do decker stuff, you'd just go there to have a different browsing experience. But ideally, if we went this direction I'd want to get rid of the web based grid entirely and just have it in the MOO. We're a text based game after all, why aren't we leaning into that?

I'm interested to hear thoughts, pros/cons. There is also a poll up in the MOO for people to vote on, but I wanted a place where we could discuss long form.

By Slither at Dec 9, 2023 10:37 AM
I personally enjoy having the current Grid interface, as it feels fairly easy for me to use, and I feel like one in the MOO would be a lot more clunky or difficult for me to navigate. Though there's definitely an argument to be made about accessibility not being there on the Web Based Grid.

In an ideal world, it'd be nice to have something like the web interface recreated within the MOO. Being able to navigate with a mouse, display images, and stuff like that. Maybe this can be done with some clever use of hyperlinks? I'm not sure.

One of the definite cons for me with this would be that this would make it basically impossible to multitask using the Grid while doing stuff in the MOO at the same time. I also worry that an in-MOO grid could have a lot less potential for things like node design. Some of the nodes are super cool, but without the web interface I feel like there's just very little options for people to be creative with nodes. This is a major part of what deckers do currently, so there would need to be some kind of replacement, something new added for them to do.

By Emily at Dec 9, 2023 11:57 AM
I could not possibly be a louder cheerleader for moving to an in-client decking experience. More maintainable, more extendable, more accessible, more themely (simulating hacking in a text terminal is a no brainer for style and vibe), and as you say the tech is there now in a way wasn't previously.

I agree there is some pitfalls in terms of potentially too much text menuing that is clunky in a terminal but the = type command that robotics and performances use now might help avoid some of that. It wouldn't be an easy thing to start over to some degree and work out the fundamentals of control and navigation and gameplay but if the decision was made today to go one way or the other, in five years time I am certain the MOO Grid would be the preferable experience for players interested in hacker archetypes.

By 0x1mm at Dec 9, 2023 12:02 PM
Overall I see a path of growth and change with a MOO Grid that just doesn't seem to be there for the Web Grid. Also it would make a bit more sense since the Progia interface and employment terminals are all in MOO, though I really hope the Grid is less clunky than Progia apps feel right now.
By Emily at Dec 9, 2023 4:36 PM
I'd love for the grid to move to the moo side but with trying to find a way to keep the ability to create artistic creations for node design. Especially the ones that have popped up recently and continuing that ability, the designs are super cool.
By crashdown at Dec 9, 2023 6:33 PM
I absolutely can not imagine myself using the grid inside of the MOO. It would be such a clunky experience if it's going to be attempted as a 1:1 conversion with all the menus that it would need.
By Eve at Dec 9, 2023 6:43 PM
The Grid that exists now is very much a product of what a webpage can do, rather than what the in-world Grid would really ideally be, in my view. It can do forums, it can do email, it can do very basic micro-websites. These were the advantages of what the website integration brought, but the biggest issues in my mind is that 1) These features don't really add greatly to the game, 2) What a website cannot do well, is add anything like decking gameplay with any kind of practical effort.

There is really a universe of gameplay and mechanical possibilities that open once the 90s Internet analogy is discarded from something that can be build withing the game's own code. Decking gameplay and object interaction, endless possibilities building on networks, wires, possibly even some of the defunct Matrix structures.

For me at least I would so readily do away with having forums if it meant having real hacking gameplay of some kind, and I suspect new players drawn to a cyberpunk setting will likewise feel similarly give how many end up disappointed of the limitations of hackers despite the theme. However ToastStunt does has a mail system that could probably be repurposed to replace Gridmail, and nodes using similar design functions to E-Notes would still retain a lot of creative possibilities.

However I acknowledge that I'd just as soon wipe all the Grid 3.0 functionality away just to get a tiny modicum of hacking-oriented gameplay to replace it so those are my biases.

By 0x1mm at Dec 9, 2023 10:16 PM
For instance, there's really no need to have a webpage analogy at all.

If we were going to really free associate you might imagine instead a Johnny Mnemonic analogy where cyberspace serves as a quasi-mirror of meatspace, and interaction uses all the sorts of gameplay systems that already exist, ie. Avatar creation adapting from RiotGear and/or rigging, firewalls adapting from guarding NPCs, hacking adapting from weapon systems, payloads adapting from explosives, daemons adapting from robotics.

That's really just an off the cuff example and has no bearing on what anyone might actually want to develop (sorry Slither), but it just serves to show that there's probably ways to build a cool decking experience into the game that wouldn't involve trying to build complex menus for displaying long forums.

By 0x1mm at Dec 9, 2023 11:23 PM
I will say if the Web Grid ends up bring replaced, I would really like there to be some sort of archive of it so people can look back on it. There's a lot of history on it and a lot of artistic effort that went into nodes.
By Emily at Dec 10, 2023 1:12 AM
Considering I'm not aware of a Grid-operated object ever materialising after being brought up as a development goal in a Townhall ages back, I'm pretty convinced that it's only going to operate as a blocker having it as a web-based system.

Current file systems are more accessible but still not super user friendly all the time, and likely to be even harder to navigate with the deeper systems of the Grid.

Best user experience would probably be a Matrix system but I'm also very aware of the problems with existing things like RiotGear.

None of the options are necessarily ideal, but I'd probably want to push towards a MOO-based Grid for long-term sustainability, but I'd also want to determine what to do with it before making any serious decisions.

By Wonderland at Dec 10, 2023 9:51 AM
I'll be honest, I hate the Grid. I have tried and continue to try and give it a fair shake, but it's too clunky. Wait five minutes for the MOO to tell the Grid that you have an object in your hands, log in with the randomly generated password you barely remember, and access... asynchronous messages, a barely-used forum, and early 2000s webpages. Constantly swap between your MUD client and your brand new window dedicated to the Grid. Put it down, proceed to forget it exists.

It's not a pragmatic system. I can only imagine it's ridiculously inaccessible for screen reader players, considering you have to navigate to a new web page that then opens a new window separate from the MOO. It's slow, it has very little bearing on the world outside of news articles, and the utility is mostly just sending people things you can't realistically send over SIC.

I've seen decking or hacking done much better in many MUDs, and none of them have ever bothered with trying to interconnect an external web service to the game. It's a novel idea, but it is not worth the drawbacks in my eyes.

By batko at Dec 15, 2023 7:03 PM
0x1's mention of the cyberspace variant we all think about 'jacking in' to is something I love. I heard there was a matrix-like system in MOO already but was defunct due to issues actually getting certain coder bits physically into it. I'm sure if that could be solved, those structures could be put to use. If it's a matter of finding the rooms themselves, maybe puppet a bit into it, tp to it, and make a little gm tele zone or something there with a door only you all can open. It's a workaround I used in a game I had been fiddling with when I was less able to figure out how to get places. Relied real hard on "portals" when I couldnt get my bit where it needed to be by doing that. If the issue getting bits into that system is something else, idk. I only really can think of it from my building exp.
By robotdogfighter at Dec 16, 2023 5:43 AM
If a native grid means that the grid will be more integrated with game systems then I am all for moving it to exist inside the MOO. The Grid's integration in the game is very very barebones and works more like a clunky spinoff message board. It would mean that any coder can work on it, not just a Node/Javascript developer, and the domain knowledge gap is lesser.
By villa at Dec 19, 2023 2:45 PM
Out of the three options presented, I like option 2. Get rid of the web based grid and bring it into the MOO.

I will echo and reiterate what others have said about the limited functionality and purpose of the current Grid. It is so disconnected from the rest of the MOO that I believe it could vanish entirely and there would be very little impact on the game.

As a thought exercise, consider that. If the Grid went away completely, what would people actually miss? What is so essential that it would be worth porting over to the MOO?

That could be a good place to start when considering project priorities and what to salvage from the current Grid.

The forums seem obvious to me. Those could be implemented in a basic menu interface. I'm not sure what else would really be missed.

Personally I would prefer any future Grid development to focus on apply the current Grid mechanisms of securing and hacking nodes to other items in the game. Like security cameras for example. Or doors in corporate / public buildings. (Let's not go off on the B&E tangent. I'm not suggesting apartment break ins here.)

I think the MOO would be best served by a hybrid of "online" and "real world / mobile" Grid.

The online portion would be key nodes where deckers could interact with game systems. Like the bank. Or the WJF licensing systems. Or corporate vending terminals (like the PRI kiosk.) NLM's broadcast network. The SHI factory.

The rest of the grid / decker experience would be mobile. Cameras / security networks. Doors. Etc.

The "interface" for the Grid would be additional verbs on game objects. Similar to what already exists with crafting. Where if the character has the right skills, they get crafting options on the examine list. With the Grid, it would be a combination of the right skills, and right equipment, like a LiteTerm.

By Hek at Dec 20, 2023 2:08 PM
I have always been a huge fan of moving into a MOO based grid. It doesn't have to match the web grid but it is my opinion that we need to move away from the web based grid and have needed to do this for a very long time.

One thing that I want to point out is that the in MOO grid doesn't have to be menu driven. It could be but there are other options. For example, one would used a command based system with state. Maybe it's a family of commands prepended with 'grid'.

'grid show' shows you where you are right now.

'grid mail changes your state to being in the mail system.

'grid write NAME' will start a mail to NAME when in the mail state.

'grid show' when in the mail state shows mail commands.

'grid feed' would take you to the feed state.

This isn't really an example of a coherent system but it's just something I made up quickly to demonstrate a possible method of having an in MOO grid that doesn't lock you into menus.

At the same time, a menu system wouldn't be the end of the world if it was structured well. For example, add an option like 'x' to every single menu so you can always easily detach from it. Also maintain state, maybe just a property on the 'terminal' object that indicates what the system's current state is so that if you 'x' out then 'use term' again, you are right back where you were.

In whatever case, menus or not, I like the idea of maintaining state on the terminal object or s8imilar. It could open up some fun opportunities. Someone forget to log off on that streetterm and you 'use term'? Now you are on the grid as them. Have fun! Your chum is using a term? 'look term' or 'l term on person' and you see what they currently see.

Just my thoughts!

By Grey0 at Dec 20, 2023 4:34 PM
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