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Haggling between Players
Making Trade work for you..

I've sort of posted something similar before that was along similar lines but got way laid in being too open to comparing all skills..

so ive been thinking more on this and this is an idea specifically for the trading skill.

I wonder if there is scope for having a CompareHaggle command that would work between player to player transactions.

Trade seems to have no bearing as a skill upon how people police themselves in trying to haggle. Now i cant say this for certain as i dont have a GM all seeing eye but i wonder how many people try and haggle and bluff and generally talk the trade talk between themselves and other players with no idea about respective Trade skill levels...

If i'm doing a deal with someone and they have gone to the effort and time of investing UE in trade then they should come out of the deal better than me. Equally if i have invested zero in trade.. i should expect to suck at this.. just the same as i would and do expect to suck if i invest zero in any combat skills and try and fight someone that has.

Therefore if i go and invest in trade then i would expect that i would have a stronger bargaining hand.. as chyen makes the mix go round and strictly as an aide to RP. i was wondering if the following would help.

Therefore i wonder if a system where two players have the option of using a haggle command. Not 100% sure how this would work.. but before they RP out the deal they get to run a quick haggle command and it gives both players some feedback saying something like + 10% to player a and player b would get -10% or even better would be a vague message along the lines of "your haggle skills are weak sauce " or " you think you got this chump outclassed".. .. something that would then give people an indication skill wise how they should RP the haggling out. obviously this isnt a shortcut to avoid the fun of RPing .. but as rightly we are blind to each other stats, but we do compare them skillwise in areas as combat.. maybe we should be able to compare them in other areas without actually viewing them?

just a thought anyway..

There are two points to haggle. One is the coded getting things cheaper in markets and other suppliers and the other is the how much people are inclined to pay for things.

Codedly means the automated skill use that removes the RP interaction from the transaction.

RP-wise you can always say no to a price, be it buying or selling. We shouldn't force people to give a discount due to their skill being less than another. But instead we offer the tools for a better RP. Trading is used when inspecting items, checking their value and then you can see how much things are worth. If baka A is asking too much, don't pay...

But in the case where you want an opposed skill check you can always xhelp and ask for it. The admin will tell you who got the best roll.

tis all fair points you make there Jinx. and as the king of the economy i defer to your wisdom in this regard.

It was only thought of as a means to improve RP as we are reminded that we might not be as smart/perceptive as our characters.. :) so it was all just in thought of how would we know comparatively who should come on top..

Combat is obvious and its interesting as its a mix of skill/stats and also player commands .. with the scope for people to embellish with RP..

My thoughts were wouldn't it be cool to have the same with trading .. not to cut out RP but to enhance it and make it more fair in regards to player UE expenditure. just from looking at someone i wouldn't know if their character would out haggle me or not.. and just because players oocly know the real price of an in game item. does that mean a character that has invest zero ue in trade wouldn't.. or would i just take them for a complete ride.. (of course even zero trade wouldn't mean that i could sell someone a lighter for 100000000 chyen..)

Like i said, just an idea i was floating around in my head to see if it had legs. and its probably more effort than its worth..

I for one wouldn't want to bother GMs/xhelp with asking about haggling rolls.

I think this could be expanded to a generic, optional 'contest' command, where two players can opt to contest a skill roll of any kind with each other, if they feel that it would enhance their RP. I can see this factoring into some player-run 'games' where the character's skills and stats might be a component, with something like arm wrestling being the most obvious example.

I think you're worrying too much about stats and not letting the RP speak for itself.

The way I've seen the fixer dynamic build up in the game especially as of late is very themely and incorporates skilled professionals into those roles. Those skills while being the price of admission do not make the fixer. Tactics, research and RP make the fixer.

If you want to play a role that is largely skill/stat driven - there are plenty out there. The role of fixer is not that. Albeit, the code is there to support you early on.

I can understand where BattleJenkins is coming from though, since many people do not appropriately play to their stats. Using the arm wrestling thing as an example, one person may have barely above average strength but describe themselves being ripped and muscular, while another has fairly high strength, but doesn't make it a prominent feature. In an ideal world everyone would RP appropriately to their abilities, but sadly it doesn't always happen, so a way to codedly establish you are more strong, or agile, or have better aim, or whatever, without just going into combat, does have some merit.

I recognize there are also many problems with it, and it may lead people to using it to compare abilities without actually RPing about it, but the idea is worth thinking about.

I think a key component of a 'contest' mechanic would be that it has to be voluntary with both players - which is to say, if one player wants to contest their skill against another player, the other player doesn't have to agree to the contest, if they'd rather handle things purely via RP. It'd just be an optional tool for players who want to incorporate a comparison of their characters' abilities into the game without having to resort to guesswork.

As for the messages it'd produce, the command should probably just tell only the players involved, rather than send out a message to everyone in the room, and leave it to the players to RP out the results.

So, when it comes to new features or code or builds or whatever, we look for things which enhance RP.

I don't see putting in a system where PCs can arbitrarily do rolls against each other or against their environment as a good thing. Three main reasons are: A - It looks extremely abusable because of the information leak which it would enable. B - I don't see it as RP enhancing at all, because there's no way to do it in a way which is "aware" of the specific situation. And C - Players don't always KNOW what the "right" stats and skills are for a given situation or contest, so, it wouldn't even be appropriate, relevant, or useful, for many of the situations where players would want to try to do these "self service rolls".

That's where your friendly neighborhood GMs come in.

As has always been the case, and as comes up in the game frequently, GMs will roll skill-checks manually to suit a specific RP situation which doesn't have coded support.

Usually we do this when the RP situation is between PC and environment, PC and NPC, et cetera. Not limited to those situations, though. Those are just the situations we on the GM side are aware of and can react to.

If there is a PC vs. PC situation which one or both of the players feel would be enhanced or improved or facilitated or made possible by a GM skillcheck contest between them, you're free to make GMs aware and see if they want to get involved and support your "scene".

It's best if you have the time before doing so to set the scene up and let the GMs know what the situation is, with @notes and a description of what exactly the contest/challenge is and why it can't be resolved with existing coded support, and how the potential outcomes will drive different RPdirections.

Ideally that 'homework' would be done before xhelping to say "Can you roll the dice". Either way, understand that the GMs don't have to get involved, or even if they want to and decide to, it may take them some time to get up to speed, choose the appropriate skills and stats to check for the situation, and roll them, and compose some spoofs or tells for telling the player(s) what the results were.

So, that's another thing to consider. This is a potential option, depending on GM availability, interest, and willingness, but, it can impede your RP for however long it takes for one or more GMs to get prepared. It's also going to be "GM Choice" whether to get involved at all. I predict that some of the time, the situations where a roll is being requested might look like any of the following: A - a bad idea. B - something which there's a coded way to resolve. C - a thinly disguised attempt to learn someone else's stat/skill, with not much real RP enhancing benefit. D - Something where the potential RP outcomes are not distinct, dramatic, novel or otherwise compelling enough for GMs to get fired up about it and join the roleplaying situation.

But there will be times when it's worth it, too. Speaking for myself, I personally like this aspect of game mastering and I do it a lot, where you don't know I'm doing it but the world might be reacting to your character. Sometimes I do it when you -are- aware. But like I said, I'm only aware of PC-vs-environment or PC-vs-item or PC-s-NPC situations and don't get very much opportunity to influence how things play out between two PCs.

An automated tool for that kind of situation, available to players, I think is maybe not worth developing, and maybe not suitable for the spirit of this game. But GM support? Again, speaking for myself and not all or any other admins, Big yes! Provided that the situation is compelling and there's a good reason for a rolled challenge between PCs.

probably just tell only the players involved, rather than send out a message to everyone in the room

This highlights one of the benefits of having a friendly neighborhood GM do this. There will be a certain intelligence involved in deciding how to reveal the results to the players involved. Sometimes a "tell" which only a single player in the room is aware of will be the right result. Sometimes a "spoof" which everyone present can read is the right result. Sometimes a spoof to all AND a secret tell to someone special will suit the situation.

Plus, creative writing to suit the actual scene and situation.

An automated tool couldn't be this rich, not with the words and not with the flexibility in how to reveal them, either.

I support the idea but I think it should be something that is an automated system mixed with GM support.

You wanna just do a simple arm wrestling contest?

Challenge Player to strength for (We are having an arm wrestling contest and would like to see who would win out in the end) *More detail could be used as where it is going on, if they are using the bar or sitting at the table across from each other etc etc*

Admin see: player A is attempted to roll strength with player B for (We are having an arm wrestling contest and would like to see who would win out in the end)

Allow admins to either join into the scene as you have suggested Linekin, or if GMs are not available they can just type in a quick command that would thus allow the skill result to be checked and echoed to the two players involved, and then a GM may or may not decide to watch on to MAKE SURE you are RPing the results.

And obviously, if there is no GMs available to run the command then players will just have to continue on RP and figure things out among themselves

When it comes to skills however, I think that should be pretty easy to do ICly. Who's the better shot? Lets go down to the rifle range and take some shots, see who gets the best score. Who's a better driver? Well I get some sick wheels, I'll run this block, we'll time it, you can go next (or two vehicles can be used).

etc so forth. Sorry for multiple posts, brain is a bit fractured so I think of something else that I should have originally said after I hit post so let me think.. anything else that should need to be addressed....

Don't think so okay!