(Edited by Rastus at 3:29 pm on June 5, 2002)
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Just read the news about ninjutsu being pulled. Good. Fix the spelling on it. It is -NOT- N.I.N.J.I.T.S.U. It is -ninjutsu. With a U! Changing that u to an i has -drastic- meanings on the word itself.
As to moving it to the advantages system, Good. I hate seeing people with no IC reason to -have- ninjutsu using ninjustu. Ninjutsu is a very rare art as it is, in the future I imagine it will be just as rare.
As to the damage values...well, I'd say ninjutsu is more damaging then say boxing or karate or Tea Kwon Do. You may ask why? Has to do with tournament and non-tournament arts. If the art has tournaments, then it has what are called 'point' hits and 'illegal' moves. Most people training in these arts are going into tourney situations and what not. Ninjutsu is a -COMBAT- art. It is based around taking your opponent out in as permanet a manner as possible/needed. IN Karate you have joint locks for submission, in Ninjutsu you have joint locks for breaking. Karate has point kicks to non-leathal areas. In ninjutsu you train to specifically -HIT- areas that are leathal.
Anyhoo...the learning system. I love that. That is a great idea. It only makes sence that as you grow in the art, you gain access to stronger, deadlier movements. You also refine the basics. The basics, as my sensei likes to say, are what you fall back on when under combat stress, it is the basics that will save your life. The more you train, the better you get. Simple. Though all ninja's can do the eye gouge.
well, I can go on for a long time on this. I'll go now.
*holds up a cardboard sign: 'Will Do Combat Descs For Food'*
-< � �As to the damage values...well, I'd say ninjutsu is more damaging
-< � �then say boxing or karate or Tea Kwon Do.
I would slightly disagree on this for a few reasons:
1) It's added complexity in a system that greatly appreciates simplicity. More coding, more skills, etc.
2) I would rephrase: "(people practicing traditional martial arts) are more (effective in combat) than (people training in most modern competition arts)."
Every martial art pretty much has it's origins in a time where practicioners were soldiers. The sole purpose was combat effectiveness. If you're training in something true to these roots, then you're a far step beyond the competition types of today.
Traditional MA would include Ninjutsu anywhere its taught in the world in this day and age simply because the sensei is always an ultra-conservative, clinging to the roots.
Olympic Judo, TKD, and other competition arts, as well as modern Chinese Wu Shu are a perfect examples of what Nic is talkin' about in terms of ineffective combat arts. Karate or TKD, and most other arts for that matter, as they're taught in 90% of places in Western countries, indeed have been softened into sports and kiddie passtimes, and have lost combat effectiveness. But the roots of these styles, as they're still taught in Asia today, are very effective combat arts.
In fact, in Asia, a student looking to train in a traditional martial art has an easy time of finding a master, and has a wide selection of styles to choose from. But he's gotta earn the right to learn - prove himself worthy to the teacher. Part of the deal, and another reason why traditional artists should be rare.
But I wouldn't exclude 'tournament arts'. Thai kickboxers are amazingly skilled and can both dish out and take impressive amounts of damage. And nobody wants to get slapped around by a Sumo wrestler.
Further, there are several modern brands of these 'ultimate fighting' styles, from all over the world, that are extremely damaging, being very similar to modern military hand-to-hand training. They are springing up in popularity right along with the 'no-holds barred' fight scene. There's no imposed limitation as to who can train in these. This recent trend leads me to the real issue.
3) What are 'competitive martial arts' gonna be like in 80 years or so, assuming the Sindome timeline?
Olympics? Not. Padding? Gone. Rules? None.
The wimpy competition styles fade away because they don't cut it in drugged-up, cybered-up, no-rules, buy-a-clone-first boxing. Anyone training in either a traditional style or a competition style is learning the real deal. Nobody practices the soft stuff anymore except the elderly, and that just for health keeping. These things get relegated to an 'Athletics' skill or something like that: almost useless in a pit fight.
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �� �-----------------
In my opinion, all martial skills of the 2080s should have the same potential. Damage done should rely not at all to the particular art a character studies, but only character skill (and stats). The more skillful the combatant, not only is he more likely to hit, his hit is more damaging.
Far more than my two cents worth,
This is from Firestorm's news post, regarding martial arts, or lack thereof:
-< � �I would like to put them back into the game along with the
-< � �implementation of the advantage system. This will cut down
-< � �the number of players having access to these styles.
First off, let me say that I don't know what is meant here by 'advantage system.' So you might just be able to ignore everything below.
But this sounds like an unnecessary re-classification of something that is very clearly a skill in real life. It makes sense, in a gaming system, to treat any combat ability as a skill, proficiency, or whatever. Martial arts seem no more exclusive than other skills such as explosives, heavy weapons, long blade, decking, medical, etc.
If they need to be more limited, I think it should be handled through roleplaying and chargen. If a character is gonna spend points on any skill, in fact, there ought to be either an in-game or background-based reason for it. Otherwise, it's just bad form, and offending players should be spanked for it (or just not approved in chargen).
From Nic, same topic:
-< � �I hate seeing people with no IC reason to -have- ninjutsu using
-< � �ninjustu. Ninjutsu is a very rare art as it is, in the future I imagine
-< � �it will be just as rare.
Recall that until yesterday, Ninjutsu was the only martial art in the world. So really, calling it 'ninjutsu' implies individuality that wasn't there. It really represented martial arts skill in general. Everybody who used the martial art skill instead of brawling had to use the ninjutsu descriptions, even though they may have a justified background in a different martial art.
But if when implemented, various martial art descriptions are available for the same skill, I absolutely agree. Ninjutsu training is hard to come by, and the more conservative the art is, the less it spreads over time. Many traditional Chinese arts have lost elements, or have been lost completely, simply because masters found no student they deemed worthy. Players need serious justification for something as esoteric as ninjutsu.
P.S. � �And also, let me join Nic in volunteering to craft martial arts description files. I was already halfway through with a Chinese art yesterday when I heard from Firestorm there would be no martial arts.
(Edited by Deon at 11:49 pm on July 31, 2001)
How difficult would it be to have hand-to-hand combat work as follows:
Character spends his first points in MA. He gets access to the basic attacks and descriptions, no ability to change.
Character advances to a certain level in MA. More attacks, more damaging attacks, etc.
Character advances to higer level in MA. Gains the ability to change his own descriptions from the 'default ma' texts.
This would be fantastic. A character who has specialized in a secretive martial art can use his real descs when the time comes, but lighten up and go with the default for sparring. That way, no matter how skilled or observant his mock-opponents are, he's not giving away guarded techniques.
(Edited by Deon at 7:10 pm on July 31, 2001)
Of course. In my opinion (see below), that's how it should be represented in game, too. But what I meant above, was, if a character has studied any martial art (game: spent points in the Martial Art skill), he had to use the ninjutsu descriptions. He uses brawling only if his points are in the Brawling skill. So in-game, brawling style (description set) isn't an option for a martial artist.
This points to another somewhat confusing part of the system, and an opportunity for simplification. Is it necessary to have brawling and martial arts be two separate things? Why wouldn't a brawler simply be a self-taught martial artist with lower skill? Or generalize the weaponless combat skill by calling it something like "Hand-to-Hand" or whatever. Martial artists and brawlers and military types and pit fighters could all use the same coding. Different descriptions are the thing that makes the styles unique.
(Edited by Deon at 1:55 pm on Aug. 1, 2001)
I point you to help skills. It tells you about the differances. Brawling is based on brute force, MA on tactical movements. They are differant, even if Ken Shamrock can just grab that judo master and mash his face into the fence to win.
Point being: Yes I understand that if you are a martial arts game wise, the only choice you have is ninjutsu. I also understand that these things need fixin. I aslo understand that there needs to be more variety. I just complain because I take Ninjutsu and I hate the messages some times cause they need more work and ummm...yeah. never mind.
You both forget the big thing here... in the REAL game... after beta. Players will learn martial arts, brawling, everything by means of Damon's AE. Once it gets going. Thus... training will be everything. It would require someone going to a dojo and training under a certain martial art. Its the same way as pistols. Observe...
Once the game is out, I believe it is going to go as thus. (Or it would be a good idea to do so.) Players choose 1-4 pistols (depending on skill) that they specialize in. Sure, a Glock is fired the same as an SSG... but the recoil/ammo differences and any number of other differences can alter accuracy. If someone is specialized in the SSG lets say, then they can use their full skills/stats for it, if they aren't, they get a partial. Same goes for MA... if Luc went to Gerik's Dojo and started training under Ninjutsu. Doing so set his specialization in MA as Ninjutsu... now, sure. If he is using that, maybe its more an offensive MA... now, his skill gets high enough, and he gains a second slot... so he goes and he trains under Deon for Karate... a more defensive MA (I dunno if they are or not... this is an example). After gaining so many points by training and working at it, it also becomes a specialization... Thus, if Luc wanted to go defensive on someone. he drops into defensive posture and uses Karate. If this is the way it goes, then he is specialized in both Karate and Ninjutsu.
Again, this takes time.... AE... training... and alot of UE. Most likely the first specialization in MA would be the best, with the 2nd and/or 3rd technique having only a small modifier against him. Pistols/knives would be a bit different, maybe 1-5 depending on the skill... and these would not require NEARLY as much training to add to the list once a slot is opened, since getting use to how a gun fires does not take a fraction of the time as it is to learn an art...
Just an idea.