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Weapon Refactoring and Messages
some things are changing

Greetings!

So, I am finally getting around to a job that I was supposed to do about 3 years ago. Write multiple attacks for each weapon in game. In addition these attacks will be skill based, meaning if you have a crappy skill level with pistol you will do less damage and see less variety of attacks.

Also, as part of this, the damage ranges and amounts for weapons are being brought into line. Expect to see your katana's doing less damage, and your guns doing more. Expect to see melee weapons fall into line damage wise in comparison to fire arms. Expect to see people with lots of skill having the ability to do one hit kills with certain weapons. Expect to see certain weapons doing knockout hits as well.

Currently the staff and I are working our way through the melee weapons. From there we'll move to fire arms (the Sebburo 6mm is done), then to bladed weapons, and finally to anything left over.

Once the weapons are re-messaged and skill based attacks in place, combat should shift a bit, especially for the high-end skill levels. It would be wonderful if players could keep an eye out for typos, bugs, and errors in combat. Also, it would be great if you would give us some feedback on how the new damage ranges are working, or not working.

Finally, this will probably take between 2 weeks and a month to complete. Which, in Sindome time equals about twice that.

:)

all hail IGA! Oh, yeah, and the rest of the SD staff.

So finnaly Tru-Colorz Dildos will have more attack messages?

;)

Just so long as they don't envolve sodomising the person you are trying to kick the shit out of.

You all mock... just for that...

*writes messages for the dildos*

What hell have we just envoked apon this world....

Y'know, I can think of various people (characters and players) who would be very happy if there were combat msgs for the dildos.

(Whether I am one of them is information I do not necessarily wish to divulge at this point...)

Mmm. Typos, bugs and errors - oh my!
*goes on the prowl*

I'm not sure if this was included in the fix, but I also want to remark on the messages that now exist when you try to "stash" a lit cigarette or a beverage.  Nice touch, though I am ashamed to admit that I saw them.

If you're talking about drinks spilling & cigs burning you when you try to stash them away, those've been around for ages. Or is there something else new that's been added for them?

I'm just wondering, like.. why everyone thinks katanas and machetes and bladed weapons of all types do too much damage?  In real life I think a katana would over all do more damage then a gun if it was one slash vs. one shot.  I mean, especially the ceramic compostie katana.  Sure, it sucks for someone who puts everything into pistol, and has to save up a lot of money to get a gun.. where as someone who puts it into Long Blade can get a machete cheap, but thats realistic.. machetes go for like eight dollars at army navy stores.  They do more damage and cost less on the low end, but on the high end they get maxed out damage wise earlier then a gun.  that seems fair too me..

I'm not saying blades should be doing as much damage as a sub machine gun or semi auto type deal, since that fires multiple shots at the same time.  

Is it because like, ranged fighting isn't coded, so guns just get an advantage because you can shoot at a person as they advance on you?

Range is definetly a major factor in combat. I don't really have the slightest inkling on how it plays out in-game but believe it to be of up most importance.  Even when wielding a katana or machete there is a range that you don't wanna cross clumsily.  Especially when dealing with a unarmed opponent or a knife-fighter.  I'm not even sure this can be represented in the game itself. Combat is bloody, chaotic and anything can happen.  There are just alot of factors that can't be acounted for. If I had a katana and managed to not get shot in the process of approaching someone, I'd chop there hand off. Among other things...

but thats just me.

From what I understand, it's rather difficult to actually cut through bone, even with a katana. Everything obviously revolves around a bunch of different factors, like how well you know how to use a katana or a gun for that matter. Far away, someone proficient with a pistol is obviously going to win hands down, if the target is nothing short of some kind of super ninja with speed implants and the ability to disappear like a shadow.. on the other hand, someone with a pistol who hasn't drawn it yet, taken off guard, up close with an expert swordsman probably stands zero chance of survival as well. With swords its less a matter of dismemberment but of piercing and slashing... a clean pierce through the heart is going to be fatal very quickly, and messy, probably the equivalent of a gun shot wound in the same area. A slash across the chest, depending on how deep which should depend on both the skill and strength of the swordsman, will most likely be fatal as well in a relatively short period of time...

One thing I'm curious to know is about bleeding... if you get shot in the arm you're obviously going to lose a lot of blood, but if you get cut in the arm with a sword the chances that a major artery gets severed is probably higher, I'd imagine.

I'd imagine for an expert swordsman to have a chance against an expert marksman the swordsman would have to be really stealthy.. I think there should be a bonus or something for surprise attacks.

But all in all, have to say guns of whatever type, short of a BB gun or pea shooter type thing, are higher up on the hierarchy of dangerous weapons. Just like a professional boxer attacking someone with a sword.. unless they can get that sword away from the guy, they're dead.

I am a fan of the one hit kills. As long as it dosn't go something like this....

AgentA Shoots Ninjaboy with Glock 20 in head.
Ninjaboy starts to bleed.
Ninjaboy slashes AgentA with katana on right shin.
AgentA falls to the ground dead.

.....I imagine that's unlikely because it doesn't make any sense.. Any thoughts on blood loss due to deep cut wounds vs. blood loss due to gun shot wounds?

Actually, take it from someone who has seen plenty of REAL LIFE deep cuts and gunshot wounds... Gunshots tend to not bleed as much, believe it or not... Partly do to the fact that the bullet is so hot when it hits, the wound is partially carterized.
However we also need to take into conideration the nature of the wound as well as placement..
For example, a big gaping hole in the chest.. you know.. one of those nasty sucking wounds where there is likely to be a hole in the lung... Something like that you just won't get with a sword while you'll never get a paper thin slice through skin that pours blood across a 12 inch long section of skin.
But if we look at basic shit as a slash running across your bicep vs a bullet in the shoulder... Provided no veins or arteries get severed and the bullet doesn't blow a big gaping hole through the back of the arm cause it's a hallow point, the sword is always gonna cause more blood loss hands down.


That's just my 2 cents... take it or leave it.

Why not compensate with say...a chainsaw?

Why not use history as an example.

There's a reason that guns replaced the swords of the middle ages and beyond. A reason that the samaurais lost (Last Samaurai anyone?)

All I'm saying is that range is the ULTIMATE factor when it comes to the gun vs. katana issue. Swords will always be better up close, its just easier to parry and attack with. Even if someone got off a shot close range, it may not be the most well aimed shot... unless they got it off JUST as the opponent closed in. Then it's point blank and we have one of those gaping holes.

However, we can never really look to real life for combat issues. In real life, you can't take a gunshot wound to the head and keep going. In real life, you can't get three gunshot wounds, four slash wounds, and a burn wound... then goto the clinic and be ready for more.

In the gun vs swords arguement... I will always favor guns as being more powerful. Hands down. Let history show that. Guns are used much more often than swords in today's day and age. (SD is much further down the line). Why? Because they can do more damage at a greater range in a quicker period of time.

You need to just pull the trigger to fire another shot in real life.

Well put, Wren.

In my opinion the ultimate factor is not an ultimate factor.

FIRST OFF: Fire arms are a RANGED weapon, Swords are not.

That is a KEY point. In a fight, close in, a sword is more useful to you than a firearm, as wren noted. You have more ability to adapt, a wider range of motions, and the 'speed' of a firearm is made negligable during infighting.

If you are going to compair old technology and new technology, use the proper compairasons. Firearms did not replace swords, firearms replaced the bow and arrow. Additionally, swords have -never- been a common man's weapon. Swords have always been the realm of the elite, military, or nobility. The average person would use knives, or sticks, or pitch forks. In a modern context the sword has largely been relegated out of combat situations, and replaced with things like extendable batons for non-leathal situations and knives.


In my opinion one of the main reasons swords have faded from use is not to do with range, or stopping power, but to do with the high degree of skill it takes to effectively use a sword in combat. A sword is, if anything, a difficult weapon to use when compaired to a firearm.

Just take a look at the motor control needed to discharge a round into a target with a firearm and compare it to the motor control to use a sword to cut someone. That fact alone makes swords less useful in a military sense, because the time it takes to train a soldier to use a sword is prohibitive compared to training someone to use a simpler weapon, say a spear or in a modern context an automatic rifle.

In addition the process of making a sword is a lot more intensive and takes longer than making a firearm, though in some cases machine made swords are effective, look at coldsteel blades for an example.


So what does this mean in a cyberpunk setting?

1) Swords are for those people who are one of the following: Insane, Tough, Skilled, or Stylish.  With a heavy emphasis on stylish.

Street Samurai's are not street sams because they have a shiney sword, they are street sams because they adhear to a samurai-esque form of honour, and are highly skilled in combat matters. Most street sams use firearms, and the ones who do have a sword lug it about for style points, not actual combat use. Style over Substance.

2) Swords are expensive, supply and demand.

3) People would and SHOULD be more prone to using a firearm because it, by and large, requires less SKILL to use, and is far more useful to you in situations where your opponent is using a gun.

As the mixer addage goes: Never bring a sword to a gunfight.

And on Red one thing you will find is a lot of gunfights, drive-bys, and general shootings.

4) In terms of Sindome, there are probably about 25% too many swords out there, and about 90% too many players trying to use swords or machete. Reality is that most players should be striving for a big, nasty boom-stick. It is up to players to do this. There are PLENTY of guns ready to go into the game, all you have to do is stop asking for a bloody MK-23s. They are RARE things, the MK-23s, and if you silly gits would bend a bit you could all be  running around blowing holes in people with things like Walther PPK/s and 10mm autos and shit.

Hell, the GMs have a stack of Seburo's ready to sell if players just ask for them.

5) In terms of Sindome the damage ranges on fire arms are wonky, and the damage ranges on the katanas (due to popular request) need to be lowered. This will all slowly sort itself out.

6) And, finally, it is my opinion that the next alteration to combat should be some sort of range system.

Now, get back on topic. One hit kills, new messages, and my lazy ass still having not finished them. :)

I like the idea of one hit kills, and KO's.  It makes people so much more dangerous.


RE One hit kills, it'll be stupid if some char finds that they can do a one hit kill on almost anyone with a certain weapon and exploits that. Its a huge coded bonus with no coded drawbacks as far as I can see. So as an example, lets say "X enters from the west", "X pulls out a gun and points it at you", "...red haze...you're dead". X is an elite assassin and never misses his mark, and you are a muscle bound moron who doesn't even realize he's suffering from a degenerative disease where the eyeballs rot out of the skull. Makes sense that death is instantaneous, but shit happens and even the elite assassin fucks up some times. What about the ambient population? What about the innocent passerby who happens to walk by just as the trigger is pulled. I hope one hit kills aren't just a command that goes, check stats, o.k. stats are far enough apart, then char. A is now dead.

For starters, even if you are an elite assassin with a handgun you have to be incredibly good to shoot someone directly in the head on a crowded street. Actually, its probably approaching impossible. So I think there should be some kind of ambient check. I'm all for "elite assassin enters cube, single shot to the head to two emaciated deckers" or "assassin enters cube, forces two punks up against the wall with pistol trained, binds their hands, makes them get on there knees then kills them execution style" that'd be very cool. BUT, "punk is standing on the street corner, assassin walks in from the west, you're dead".. would be very fucking stupid, in my opinion. Hrm, so the long winded point is..

there should be check to see what kind of location the one-hit kill is going down in. Crowded places = much more difficult, empty places = relatively easy.

(on a side note, with one hit kills I don't think you should be able to see how exactly you died...Might be cool if it just wasn't even displayed, and make it so you actually go investigate -how- you died. You might only just register that hand reaching into the coat and pulling out a gun, etc. then its over).

I'm pretty sure that Iga mentioned it was going to be with specific weapons.  I wouldn't think you would be doing many one hit kills using just a seburo.. not accurate enough.. but I mean.. If you had an MP11, people getting in the way and shit isn't going to stop the hail of bullets flying through the air toward who ever you want to shoot.

A one hit kill isn't a command, it would be a result of an extremely succesful roll in combat.  One shot, blam dead.

Ok, fair enough, I guess. But I still don't know about a submachine gun type set up.. I'd guess a body in the way, or a whole crowd of bodies in the way for that matter, will stop a round from a 9mm submachine guns, and sure as hell make it more difficult for that one-hit kill...

also.. maybe there should also be a command for one-hit kills, in addition to the combat roll possibility? Like 'execute' or something, tied to certain skills and other things? Hmm.. for that matter, maybe there should be a command like 'subdue' or something, whereby someone is forced into a more compromising position, like on the floor with hands behind the back...Kind of a grapple but with limited physical contact. And if someone tried to subdue you, maybe you would be given the option to consent (i.e. give in) or resist (like when being grappled). Double taps or beheading could then proceed from there, or alternatively the execution of the person who first tried subduing.


--

Oh yeah, and its not entirely unheard of for people to 'keep going' with a gunshot wound to the head. Just not for very long.

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 6:36 pm on May 19, 2005)

Ya know, if the player being executed went along with it, I would not at all be against manually knocking someone out after RPing the pose and what not.  But it could easily be worked with, and after all, what person is going to sit there with their hands behind thier back and not fight back? it'd be a personal choice methinks.  So if your in the position to try and do it, and the character just gives up and allows you to fire a round off in thier head. xhelp and we'll do something to facilitate an attack without a defense response. Hrmm, well maybe I spoke too soonly, don't know if the rest of the staff will dig on that. well yea, -I- don't have a problem doing it.

I am a fan of one hitters. �If I am some karate guru, and i also specialize in like a baton or something, I think it'd be reasonable for me to knock some punk out in one tactical swipe to the kneck or something. Likewise, If Ex-Special Forces now turned Mafia Assassin Bob walks up on me with his Ruger GP100 and plugs me in the face, I expect to drop dead.

Are one hit kills "on" yet? From the Bgbb posts it sure sounds like it :p


"Oh yeah, and its not entirely unheard of for people to 'keep going' with a gunshot wound to the head. Just not for very long. "

Unless you're hit from a gun that has litter power to it, like a .25, then you're either dead, or you're fucked up beyond the point of being able to pull a single combat manuever.  I use the .25 as an example becuase I know of an  argument between a husband and wife. The husband pulled out his .25, stood about ten feet away, and shot her in the head. The round smacked her in the head REALLY hard, but didn't penetrate into her skull.

(Edited by Biohazard at 8:57 pm on May 19, 2005)

Okay, first off, let me re-iterate and clarify one hit kills.

There are THREE things that ALL need to happen for a one hit kill. They are as follows:

1) A VERY VERY high skill level. And when I say HIGH I mean 'so far in the five years I have been on the MOO only 5 players have ever had a skill level high enough'.

So BB, don't worry, you won't suddenly find you and yours getting assassined to death.

2) A CRITICAL HIT must happen.

3) The ATTACK that is called has to be the highest skilled attack of the weapon. What does this mean?

Okay, I will use the Katana. There are 10 attacks written for the Katana at this time. Only the HIGHEST SKILLED attack (meaning you have to meet requirement #1 as stated above) on a CRITICAL hit in order to see a one hit kill. As far as I know the ATTACK that is CHOSEN when you are in combat is picked randomly or semi randomly from ALL 10. That means there is only a 1 in 10 chance that you will even call the attack that lets you do a one hit kill.


So, as you can see, the chances of seeing a one hit kill are RARE! VERY VERY VERY RARE! ASTRONOMICALLY RARE. Even if players had the skill level, it STILL requires a CRITICAL HIT and PULLING the attack that allows for a one hit kill.


EXCEPTIONS:

There are a few exceptions to this.

1) Weapons designed to do massive damage. IE: MP11, Sniper Rifle, etc.

2) Really tough players with higher than average hitpoints may SURVIVE a 'one hit kill' attack. So even a 'one hit kill' attack is not a garuntee of success.

And, finally, Wren and I went over the combat system breifly and it may not even be POSSIBLE as the system sits right now to do a one hit kill. We are trying to figure out how best to deal with it. Please, do NOT give suggestions, we have about five years of staff discussion on the matter. :)

I, personally, want one hit kills. I like the idea of someone lucking out and blowing the spine out of someone with a Sebbie.

Pheer the peashooter! ;)

I agree with massive damage critical hits (or as we're calling it one hit kill). Just think of it. You have to have humongous skill, do a critical hit and then do the right move. So you'd have to get a lot of UE, do a awesome roll and after that do another awesome roll to get the greatest damage your weapon can deliver.

For me it's an equation:

S = your skill on the weapon
K = skill needed to land the blow
A = chance to critically hit the oponent
D = chance of the opponent critically avoid your attack
T = chance of landing the correct attack (0.1)

So the probability of scoring a massive damage critical would be:

( A - D ) * ( T  * (S - D) )

So the chance to hit a person is A - D and the possibility of being able to do the move is S-D, then :

Chance to hit (CH) * T * (AM) Ability to do the move

But since the CH is close to minimal, but yet doable and the AM is a matter of time (UE) then you'll have that the AM in every fight is a constant and if it is zero or negative you simply can't do it. Hence the formula leads to :

CH * T

CH tends to zero and T is something between 0.01 (or even less) and 0.1. That leads to a small fraction of a minimal probability.

To show you how small it is... Say that you have a chance in ten to do a critical (and that's huge! normal PNP games is somewhere around 5%) and that you have a chance in ten to do the killer move.

CH would be 0.1 (1/10)
T would be 0.1 (1/10)

Hence your chance to land the hit would be 0.01 or 1% of the times. But since the critical possibility whould be lower than 10%, let's say 5% then it would lead you to 0.5% chance of doing a devastating critical hit. That means once every 200 hits. Good luck.


In other words... Once you do one of these, please log it and show off to everyone, 'cause you're a lucky bastid.

;)

More importantly:

BRAG LIKE FUCKING HELL IN THE MIX ABOUT IT! HELLO INSTANT STREET CRED!

(corpsec, you can brag to your corpsec buddies about the mixer you waxed.)


( A - D ) * ( T  * (S - D) )

Did i miss where K went? *chuckles*

*pours massive amounts of UE into MELEE and DILDO specilization*

This is an idea but since its relevant to weapon messages I'll put it here.

I was thinking it would be cool if there was multiple types of messages for a weapon based on 'style'. It doubles the work, I realise, but some where along the line it would be a good addition I'd think. an example would be someone who uses a sword. It was mentioned before that there are too many players with swords central, that the sword thing is mostly a style, and so on. I was thinking though, if one set of messages was related to say, a trained swordsman who actually knew the various movements and poses and so on, the messages would reflect that 'professional, deadly dance' sort of style. But the fact of the matter is in the modern day yaks in japan do have swords, kept for decoration mostly, but when fights between gangs start up on the street or between unions or whatever (the most famous being after the war in Hiroshima a huge gang war with thousands of soldiers), they have swords and they are effective with them but they're basically using them ast a street weapon. all the ritual and postures associated with kemp or swordsmanship or what have you is totally irrelevant. and some of them were probably damn good with a sword despite lacking formal training.

...so to cut the long story short.. you could have different styles. 1) a trained, practiced type of sword use 2) a viscious, 'drunken', spntaneous sort of street style

I guess it seems best suited to something like a sword as far as style goes as most weapons are just one way or another.. as there's not much style difference between a gang banger shooting a pistol and a police officer or what have you. but it could work for the blade based weapons.. There are different styles of knife fighting after all.

...and there should be different MA styles too, etc.
*adds to wishlist*

How would you be able to tell what style your character is though? I mean - if there's a choice between "supercool ninja swordsman" and "thug who prefers to hit people with the flat side of the blade and kill them that way" - who really is going to choose the latter?

It could come down to stat check (uh, skills check, even) - where if someone has longblade (or whatever) over a certain point, then they automatically become slick and polished... but that isn't *quite* what you were suggesting, I know.

*goes back to thinking*

I think it'd be effective if players could create move descriptions for styles like @nakeds then submit them for approval. Wa la, your own style...it'd be something cool to pass along. This is more of Martial Arts thing but yeah, you can tell alot about someone by how they fight.

Only problem with that being, that attack messages are pulled from the weapons, not the players, meaning we'd have to alter the messages of the weapon your character is using.  And then change it again when that weapon fell into another person's hands.  Completely customized attack messages are something that I can see for a Mush, or a moo without actual code for combat ie, a GM stands there overseeing the battle, adjusting hitpoints and rolling dice for the combatants.

Martial Arts is something that's being worked on as we can get to it, that one falls to the wayside as GM cycles are eaten up by plots and building efforts.  

In short, customizable weapon messages would be something that required more upkeep that we're currently able to afford.  We're currently  doing new messages for weapons based on skill and specialization, new more flamboyant attacks, attacks that do heavier damage. Disabling attacks will follow as limbloss is finished up.

Again as usual, this is just my view on things.

First person to one-hit kill someone with a dildo gets a real one mailed to their house. Oh yeah ... an unused one.

:stoner2:

You raise your dildo high over your head and plung it directly into.....
The ending of this will haunt me forever.

Hey, J-man, how about you send me one anyways... Then I go beat my boss with it and bring back pics for all to see of me pulling a you know who....

All right.

So, after having a number of complaints, statements, arguments, disagreements, and general discussion the following things are about to change:

long blade weapons will do less damage.

fire arms will do more damage.


These changes will happen over the next little while.

The shift for characters already established skill wise with the long blade will be noticable. The shift for players already established skill wise with fire arms will be VERY noticable.

The shift for unskilled players will be minimal.

Why this change? Theme. This is cyberpunk, not feudal Japan.

That is all.

This makes sense, but one thing I've noticed - and I may be wrong - is that armour that's been Desced to look rather strong, I'm thinking about flak-jackets in particular (which are kind of like a bullet proof vest?) don't seem to be too effective... as in bullets seem to pass through them pretty easily.

I sometimes wonder if they serve any function at all besides waying you down?

It would make sense to me if there were corresponding items in the game, like bullet proof vests, that were fairly good at stopping a bullet in its tracks.

A strong kevlar vest like some of those desced in the game should stop most relatively low calibre bullets.. even if it is the future I don't see how, say, a 6mm bullet fired from a cheap little gun will penetrate layers and layers of kevlar and padded gel packs, etc.. Of course I would understand if a .45 round ripped a gaping hole in such a thing and rendered it useless (forever).. but there you are.

Well there's an armor soak roll for worn armor, i'm sure at least some of you have seen the message, not gonna get into how that actually works codewise, I don't particularly care for it though.  
Anyways, the bullet stopping ability of armor would degrade the more damage it takes, something we are not set up for right now (it's planned, being worked on, I.E. On The List)
That's something that needs to be done for everything, from doors to bottles of beer, which seems to me, to be a huge undertaking.

Also with armor that stops bullets, say your  wearing the chest piece to an X05 which covers the chest and back, each succesive attack that strikes the back of the armor should weaken it, but only the back, the front would still be ok i'd think, so now we're breaking each piece of armor into sections according to each body part covered, applying hit points or whatever you want to call them, and have them taken down as each bullet hits each bodypart. which seems to be a bigger pain to a layman like me.

Wow... too long no postie.    

I'd just like to give a huge WOOT-WOOT!! to everything in Iga's last post.  

I'd also like to say something about armor.  When I was in the army we had flack jackets that were made of 3-4 layers of Kevlar.   They might stop a .22   The main purpose was stopping shrapnel should an explosive go off near you.  And the helmets.  The way they protected you was more based on the shape then the stopping power, the bullet would glance off the helmet if hit from most angles, but a dead on hit would likely penatrate.   This also said, from what my sargents would tell me even if a helmet could stop bullets, a 7.62 round to the forehead of your helmet would snap your neck like a twig from the impact.

Note: a Flak jack stops shrapnel, like jotun said. People just assume they can stop bullets too. Which is fine, if you have no IC military training/etc and havent been schooled on flak jackets, then think they are bullet proof all you want :)

I think I'm going to have to call the admin on this one, either katana damage is infact the -same- or _better_ then the last time I got whacked with one, if I'm not mistaken, WJF armour, is also supposed to be better then x05 (That would be a natural presumption, since WJF armour is specifically built knowing judges are going to take craploads of flack in it) This is what happened to me tonight, and if this is what happens to me -while- wearing WJF armour, then why should people even participate in combat. I present, the log from this evening:

Crouching in a balanced stance, a shrouded sinister figure arches his elbow, holding his ceramic composite katana high in the air. In a burst of kinetic energy he advances on you in an attempt to evicerate you.
You drop into a fighting crouch as a shrouded sinister figure moves to attack.
You instinctively block as a shrouded sinister figure lashes out at you with his ceramic composite katana, taking the full agonizing force of the blow with your right arm.
Blood begins to spurt from your fresh wound.
You instinctively block as a shrouded sinister figure lashes out at you with his ceramic composite katana, taking the full agonizing force of the blow with your right arm.
You make a grab at a shrouded sinister figure, hoping to get in a blow at close quarters, but he reads your move and prevents you from getting a grip.
a shrouded sinister figure catches you off guard with a vicious counter-attack...
You scream in pain as a shrouded sinister figure's ceramic composite katana slashes deep into your chest, flaying muscle and tissue, a stream of blood tracing the air moments later.
You collapse on the ground in an unconscious heap.
The distant sounds of the world slowly fade away as you slip into oblivion.

I think I'll point out, that it was infact an NPC who did this damage, and not a player.

Whew. Although I dunno the specs on Judge armour, nor much about the whole fighting system, it seems to me that a 'slash across the chest' that is able to kill while wearing judge armour seems abit wrong.  I can understand if maybe the force behind the blow was able to collapse a chest, but being able to slash through the toughest armor I've heard of, and doing so in one good hit to the chest seems to be alittle off.  Oh well, not much I can say anyway, but still seems alittle wrong.


my two cents worth....

The point I was trying to demonstrate there is, how exactly is anyone less then 2 years old, and twinked up the shit, supposed to do anything combat wise?

Dont bring your mitts to a knife fight?
Bring a really big gun?

Just because you get your ass kicked once and a while doesn't mean you can't fuck up the little guy. Armor only does so much. You are what you own. Get a weapon if combat is that important to you. Sheesh.

Also, were talking about a ceramic composite katana.  Not just a normal katana.  Judge armor I don't think, is as good as xo5.  I can vouch that xo5 -does- work, as I almost @bugged getting shot more times then usual and not being dead, before realizing it was the xo5.

Lujan, Nemisis has it right. That was a ceramic composite katana. That is a mono-edged weapon you got fucked up with. Also, I haven't gotten to that particular weapon yet for refactoring. I am currently working on firearms. (Did the Ruger P93-CDS yesterday! On to the Glock 20 today!)

As to uber-ed up, Forgive me if I am wrong Lujan, but isn't your character definitive of 'oldbie' status? Sounds to me like you are complaining because you got beat up. I don't know why you think that makes you special, or why an NPC taking you down makes this special either. I for one have killed dozens of players with an NPC. I've even permed a few. Withmore City is a harsh place, people die. It is GOOD for a character's story to end. Good for the character, good for the MOO, and definately GOOD for the player.

As to unskilled people in combat, all I can say is what I said above, transitional period. It will take probably until the end of this year to get it all worked out and humming along. How it is set up is that unskilled attacks do less damage, but all the weapons are on a relative scale, so unskilled vs. unskilled people are on the same level. Skilled vs. Skilled are on the same level.

I would think it is a very GOOD thing that someone with no skills in a weapon is unable to do the same level of damage as someone who is very skilled.

Also, it is not like you have to 'uber up' to get better skill based attacks. They are in place along the stat increase curve. At certain stat levels you will see more attacks, and as you get better, you see more. Makes sense no?

The point of all this is that katana were way over powered. They no longer are. If you must know, in the hands of a skilled player the Ruger P93-CDS is about as powerful as the katana. Loosely. It isn't really a straight on comparison, and things are still being tweeked obviously. And no, before any katana users start complaining, I do not think that kats should be more potent. I have been utterly convinced by the arguments of others to make the long bladed weapons weaker in game, and I was a staunch defender of the katana as a force to be feared.

As I said, this is cyberpunk, not feudal japan.

Wow. Thank you, Iga. Consider this post pointless if you must, but...amen to that ^ .

Well, yeah. Guns vs blades, it's only natural that a gun will have more power. I mean...c'mon...okay? C'mon...

I've stayed out of this argument because I don't think I have a clear head, given my characters obvious preference and how I have molded his stats/skills around what they are.. But I feel this too be onesided in the sense that everyone is bashing blades and I shall offer my argument.  I am not trying to change anyones mind about making blades weaker, it's already being done.  This is just how I feel.

I agree with the fact that guns have a serious advantage over all ofther non projectile weapons, in a ranged attack.  But in close combat a blade has an advantage.  First of all, you can knock the barrel of a pistol AWAY if someone points it at you, but you can't really knock the blade away.  (Yes, you can knock the persons arm, but even trying that puts you at risk for someone with quick reflexes might chop off your hand).

There are many other reasons a katana would win in close combat, the ability to severe limbs?  What good is a gun in your hand, if your hand is lying on ground three feet away, and you've been blinded by the blood splurting from your elbow?

As we don't have ranged combat, or limb loss, these arguments mean nothing.  Guns are overall a more useful weapon on the streets of the mix right now.  But it's my opinion that if limb loss was coded, the lack of damage a blade would do, could be superceded by the fact that you might cut off or out someone's arm, leg, shin, neck, head, eye.

As Iga said, this is not feudal japan, it's Cyberpunk.  This is very true, but whats a big thing in CP?  STYLE, STYLE, STYLE!  What's worse then not only besting a foe with a superior weapon, but physically maiming their body, and leaving them alive for all too see as a mark of what happens when people fuck with you, WHILE looking fucking amazingly stylish, fast, and skilled?

A gun cannot offer you those kind of results!  Guns are pure firepower, and lack style in my opinon.  This of course, doesn't have anything too do with how much damage a blade should do, really.. but I felt that the argument was more like, lets make blades weak, because people are using them instead of guns..  I dunno, it just seems like that with the cost of a katana, and now, it doing less damage, that its not so much about balance and what would realisticly do more damage, and its more about stopping people from using them all together.

Who wants to pay so and so amount for a katana when it's only going to (in the hands of a skilled user) do damage similar to a gun of 1/4 the cost?  If were going to talk about realistic and stuff.. Is that realistic?  I can go to the martial arts store and buy a factory made, sharp, combat ready katana for $150 (US).    Sure it's not going too be GREAT, but thats still alot cheaper then it would buy  even a shitty ass gun at walmart, or any other gun store..

I dunno, I just don't see this being about balance as much as trying to force people to use guns because that seems to be the popular idea of whats CP.. I didn't mean for this too turn into a rant.. as it seems to have done.

</finish>

I think in north afrika an AK-47 runs something like $15...and they all carry machete's. Regarding ranged combat vs. melee combat, there is definetly a sphere of effective use for both weapons.

Why not incorporate a ranged combat bonus in the form of "first attack" rather then deny street samurai effective weapons?

Simply based on the effectiveness of a weapon at a decent range. The player could gain an initial bonus until the person at a disadvantage could effectively "cross the distance" with a successfull attack or dodge.

Advantages would exist in this order...

Rifles (Shotguns excluded)
SMG
Pistols (plus shotguns)
Long_blade
Melee
Brawl AND Martial Arts

Naturally, this advantage would be null if the attacker (at a disadvantage) came from the shadows and suprised the defender. :shrouded:

Just an idea.

(Edited by ReeferMadness at 8:37 am on Oct. 18, 2005)

North Africa sucks. Not a good example to defend machetes. Machetes suck too.

Nemisis: I am not saying that using a katana is less stylish.

But fire arms, which are typically used in ranges under 10 feet, have more stopping power. And as to your '$150.00 combat ready katana' that is utter fucking bullshit. I've seen those things. They are -NOT- combat ready. They are basically polished and lightly sharpened stainless steel with a plastic grip. The handles fucking crack if you actually use them as a weapon. The cheapest combat katana I have heard of is produced by Cold Steel and runs about $500.00 USD. Don't talk to me about these shit ass toys you get in a mall, I've seen them, I've seen what a real katana does as well.

Feel free to use a blade if you feel it is more stylish. Just remember that the cost of doing so is that you loose out on stopping power. And, frankly, GUNS are fucking stylish as well. Why do you think cowboys wore them in the open, all covered in flashy silver. You're just saying a kat is cool because you use it. And as to guns, I can go down into East Hastings and talk to the right pawn broker and get a Saturday-Night-Special for $75.00, the ammo for another $10.00, and I can be holding up a liqour store inside of an hour.

Style isn't in the item. Style is in how you USE it.

Many people in 'North Africa', apparently, to whom automatic weapons are readily available, nevertheless also carry bladed weapons because they serve their own particular function. I suspect RM is vaguely refering to the numerous militia groups active in some countries. Morocco doesn't suck. Egypt is doesn't suck. Tunisia doesn't suck. The machete is the weapon of choice for Triad's the world over. They regularly use them to dismember people without the bother of acquiring and operating a firearm, which can be a bigger pain in the ass then I imagine you might suspect in places where firearms are -banned-. Machetes have numerous benefits. Off the top of my head they are cheap, have the potential to be a silent killer, etc., etc.

Heh, sorry. I got this image of you being the hard shit and pulling out a pistol only to find a massive chunk of your arm missing from a quick handed butcher!!

I'm sorry, was that supposed to make machetes sound cool and north africa suck less?


And as IGA said, guns do have style. Guns are style.
Honestly, watch Snatch. Watch Bullet Tooth pull out the fucking Desert Eagle .50AE. Are you saying he has no style?

And as far as the close range advantage mumbo jumbo. Pistols were made for short and close quarters combat. Sub machine guns, they spit ammo, they aren't for taking out a chummer at 500 yards. Shotguns are simmilar. Though there are things you can do to a shotgun to make it more accurate/range/what have you.

And buddah, forgive me for laughing at your comment. I just picture you as the ninja wannabe who magically cuts through my badass armor and bone, only for me to pull out my other gun, pop you in the chest, with my friends, who also have guns, shooting you down. :-)

You don't have to apologise for laughing.... though I fail to see how ignorance is funny. Anyway...

Guns are not style.

Machetes are not style.

How you behave with either one of these things in the game would be what I would judge as regards style in Sindome. Yeah.. *snicker* people who use machetes are 'ninja wannabes'. Umm. What the fuck are you on about?

also.. I don't know if this is what you meant by
"Why not incorporate a ranged combat bonus in the form of "first attack" rather then deny street samurai effective weapons? "

A good majority of "Street Samurai" use firearms...
You don't have to be a wannabe ninja with a sword to qualify as Street Samurai.

Now now, buddah. No reason to get all pissy.

EXACTLY BUDDHA!

Style isn't in the item. It is in how you use it.

Stylish with a katana isn't jumping into combat and killing. Stlyish is pulling it out, swaggering down the street dragging it along the wet pavement so it sparks, and then giving that fucker with the MK pointed at your face some serious stink-eye followed by a witty comment like 'ya got one hit with that boom stick 'for I get close enough ta cut ya from balls ta throat. Lets see who's go the better body armour neh?'

Stylish with a gun isn't pulling it out and going BANG!

It is pulling it out, cocking back the safety, and grinning at your foe and saying 'Nice pig sticker punk. Lets see how well ya swing it with a tea-cup sized hole in your face.'


Style is in what you do with what you have. Fuck man, a pickaxe can be more stylish than a gun or a katana.

It's all in good fun.

Okay. So, back ON TOPIC here:

There was a bug. And it was nameth Iga. Or more precisely, how Iga set something on some prop at some time. Maybe.

Basically certain weapons were using the wrong damage ranges in combat. Mainly (wait for it.....)

The Katana and the MK23-s.

The in-game katana's were using damage values from about 2-3 years ago. And the MK23-s had damage values that were assfucked.

They are now fixed.

I actually beefed up the katana from what I was planning to drop it down to. You should notice some changes. I'll keep tabs on things play wise, make sure things aren't wonky. This will effect things pretty hefty. Basically the damage range on the katana was allowing for a hit that could potentially take off 75% of a players health in one non-critical hit. That is no more! (Though, in the hands of a skilled player the thing can do a -LOT- of damage. Don't think I am making the katana pussy, I am just bringing it in line with the other game weapons. And making the high end fire arms actually do damage like high end weapons, which they were NOT.)

(Side note: Just so you know, when the limbloss system is in place, the katana will have two distinct game advantages over a fire arm. 1) It doesn't run out of ammo. 2) It will cut off your arm, or, if you make a good roll, your head, and kill you in one hit. That system isn't coded yet. So, suck it up, we are in permaBETA(tm) )

((WHEE)BR(A)C)KET) FUN!)

I don't want to argue with the admins and how their systems work, but take into consideration, that with a gun, you can pop small limbs off. Like, if you shoot someone in the wrist with an Mk, it's possible you can blow it right off. Even more so with a shotty. Ever see a shotgun suicide? You can make quite a big mess with a shotgun slug to the face too....

Not trying to argue any point here, just saying dont keep guns COMPLETLY (even though they probably can't do alot of limb loss moves like the katana) keep them out of the limb loss loop.

All weapons have a chance to dismember something.

It is just that some weapons, like a katana, are designed for it.

I think there's a difference between maiming and amputation. While amputation rips off the body part... Maiming makes it unusable.

Like sliting the tendons on a hand, shooting a hole on the guy's hand, while it doesn't rip the bodypart off, it inutilizes it. Most guns do that. While a blade has a bigger chance or amputation it also can do it.

So I'd say we need both maiming that can be healed and amputation that needs cybernetics.

Like I said in my only post concerning the topic at hand, I refrained from comment for awhile, BECAUSE my character used a katana.  I pointed out that my opinion could be tainted because of this fact, but that I was still going to say what I wanted to say, because I felt it had its merit.

That said, Bio, I don't know what your problem is.  There is no reason to start bashing people because they make a meaningful post, and then retort with something like,

'ROFL AMCHECTESES are the SUCK!'

When I read posts like that it makes me feel 11 years old again, posting on some AIM Script Kiddie board about Phishing for accounts with AOHell.  You are the one thats getting pissy., and theres no reason for it.  What point do comments and posts like this serve?

"North Africa sucks. Not a good example to defend machetes. Machetes suck too."

"I just picture you as the ninja wannabe who magically cuts through my badass armor and bone..."

I'm getting pissy? Sorry? I was just trying to say that North Africans do not do too much pwning with their machetes when compared with militas and armies that walk around with just guns, who do much more pwning.
Therfore the element of suxor is quite evident.

As for my comment on my uber armor and bone makeup, I was making a silly response to another silly comment which all relates to the blade vs gat issue.

I didn't bash blade users. I didn't bash anyone. I was just pointing out that in most cases, guns are a superior weapon. If your going to take a few playfull comments out of context, hey, that's on you.

Fuckin A. Didn't know this was such a touchy god damn subject.

Personally I don't have any issues with the refactoring of weapons damage values in this regard.  I believe it makes sense from the standpoint that all forms of weapon use are not currently coded.  It isn't -fair- as of right now, but as Iga stated, its something that's still being coded [limb-loss].  From a coding perspective its better to just get the normal shit done RIGHT now so they don't have to go back and change shit all around all over again later.  Of course, its already been changed around alot over the years.  :P

Anyway, I'd love to see things like limb-loss, maiming, and fatigue all implented as soon as possible.  It would really make for some fun situations, especially in those gunman vs. swordsman battles (which I remember long ago were hard as fuck for the swordsman as well..  before the more recent wonkiness with damage values).  The katanas weren't always nutty powerful, then something odd happened during the implementation of the new weapons messages/skill-based attacks system, and they had..  crazy-hell attacks (leaving the MK23-s to do..  something similar to the katana's old damage?..  where they reversed?  Who knows.. doesn't matter anymore anyway).

Annnnyway.. I wanna see the heads roll and the hands get blown off.  W00t.

And I guess I'll post something about this meandering North Africa topic and the machetes as well..  

I'm sure that someone with a machete would be more scary to someone if they were more highly skilled in combat tactics and the effective use of the weapons.  Not to mention supplies and possible armor.  The real reason the "wannabe ninjas" are "the suck" in this situation is because they aren't as highly trained as the soldiers with guns, nor do they have the same resources available at their disposal.  

Now if they actually -were- ninjas, even without the same amount of resources they might be able to put up a better fight.  

My point is (if I've even gotten near making it with the above), the effectiveness of a weapon in-game here on SD should rely mostly on the wielder's skill.  Which, with the addition of specialization and the refactoring of weapons, it WILL.  Eventually.  Some already do now.  Like katanas.  And MK23-s.  Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you're going to go out and pump that badass street-ninja full of holes.  You've gotta actually be able to shoot it and aim it and be faster than the sonuvabitch who's trying to dodge your bullets, running at you with a goddamn steak knife longer than your leg.

You've gotta have the skill to match.  But still, the weapon's gotta pack the right punch.  ;P

And Iga, the katana has a third advantage:  It does not make loud noises.

And Iga, the katana has a third advantage:  It does not make loud noises.

*ponders raising the silencer debate*

Quote: from Bixby on 12:55 pm on Oct. 20, 2005[br]
*ponders raising the silencer debate*

Make one!  :D

Yeah, some purpose for the munitions skill (besides grenades hopefully) would be clutch cargo.

mmmm....silencers...

Reefer, ease up on the weed.

Grenades use 'explosives' not munitions.

Silly player.

Weapons done:

Seburo, Ruger P93-CDS, Walther PPK/s, MK23-s, Katana.

Soon to be done (as soon as Johnny adds the props todayish):

baseball bat, axe handle, carbon steel pipe

Speaking of axe handles... one thing I find as odd is that in a lot of the descriptions for those melee type weapons you have 'smatterings of blood' and all these grusome implications. Thing is they sell all those nasty things complete with blood and all at the hardware store in Green.. maybe some shiny new axe handles are in order?

They DO?! BB, that isn't right. I will fix them to be non-meta-infoed.

If you see any, post them here.

Damn, looks like you got to them all pretty fast. Nice!

Oh, umm...tire iron.

(Edited by ReeferMadness at 7:17 pm on Oct. 21, 2005)

I think chains still need to be re-worded as well.

And we have a winner on the deadly hit!

Allandra with her gun.

Pay the props whoever said they would.

Time was around 17:45 DST of December 2nd.

Suprize Suprize

Quote: from Jinx on 5:50 pm on Dec. 2, 2005[br]And we have a winner on the deadly hit!

Allandra with her gun.

Pay the props whoever said they would.

Time was around 17:45 DST of December 2nd.

I think it was two, actually...but then again, I am kinda high.

Just one. For sure.

I wish I could have seen that... did anybody log it? I mean names would need to be substituted of course... but that would be cool to see.

Heh, I bet it was sweet.  I've seen two hit kills, with MP-11's or Ceramic Composite Katanas.. but not one hits..

So nobody logged it? Damn.

...think about it this way - think of a combat scene where someone dies. Now, forget everything except for the final, fatal hit.

It'd be pretty much like that, eh.

So, recently, due to IC things, my character has started using a pistol.  I'm kind of disapointed really.  I had put six ue into the pistol skill, and could do more damage with a gun that costs less then a katana, than I could with my katana.  Long_blade is my highest skill by far, and I have good specialization in katana.

On top of that, I didn't miss.  I understand combat relys on both stats -and- skills but, it seems unfair.  I realize that if someone starts shooting at me while I'm using a katana, they will probably kill me before I reach them.. but that does not mean that if I sneak up behind them and cut them before they can even -draw- there weapon, that my katana is going to do any -less- damage.

Instead of making katanas do less damage, which I see as being OOC, since guns are MUCH MUCH more powerful, even at very low skill levels, and for the most part, cost LESS than a katana, why not just give a bonus combat round or even two, to anyone who initiates combat with someone using a melee weapon (such as a katana, fists, brass knux, baseball bat).  

It could be assumed that since they are starting the combat, and are shooting, the distance between them and the person they are shooting at would have to be closed (by the person being shot at) before they could initiate an attack.

This way, if someone weilding a katana initates combat, it would be assumed they closed the distance between the person they were attacking -before- they started to attack.  So they would not lose any combat rounds.  So it's still worthwhile to carry a damn katana if you want to kill someone stealthily by sneaking up behind them.. or just catching them by surprise when there standing right in your face.

Of course, if the person weilding the katana were to sheath the katana and pull out a pistol, he wouldn't miss any more combat rounds, as both people would be using a ranged weapon.

here's how I picture it.

Bob is holding a gun.
Jack is holding a katana.

Bob swivels his gun toward Jack, finger on the trigger.
Jack spots Bob's action and starts running toward him.
Bob shoots Jack in the arm.
Jack sprints toward Bob, trying to close the distance.
(There could be a combat roll here, agil vs dodge or something to see if Bob manages to keep far enough away from Jack that he can't attack him.)
Bob shoots Jack in the foot.
(Jack manages to close the distance)
Jack slashes Bob with his katana.

I think this would be much better than just making guns more powerful, or making katanas do less damage.  I mean, realisticly, I think a highly skilled street sam is going to do more damage with his katana than a self taught amature that goes to the shooting range one weekend a month, even if that person has amazingly quick reflexes.

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:40 am on April 7, 2006)


(Edited by Nemisis at 1:41 am on April 7, 2006)

Edit in:

Making long_bladed weapons less powerful has several repercussions for players that use those weapons.

They don't do as much damage, which means it takes more combat rounds to kill a person with a blade.

That means that there are more combat rolls for that player.  It's a double penalty.  Not only do you do less damage, but the player your attacking gets more chances to DODGE your attack, and if they are using a pistol, then you have -less- chances.

Alot can happen in those extra combat rounds that happen because of the less damage.  

Backup can arrive for the other player.

They get more chances to shoot you.

They get more chances to grapple/disarm.

They have more of a chance to flee.

It just doesn't seem fair or balanced to me, at all.  The extra combat rounds that I talked about above would basicly have the same effect as lowering the damage a katana does, if the person you were attacking starts the combat, but it doesn't effect a long_bladed character if they are smart about it, and take the initiative, or use stealth and subterfuge to catch the other player by surprise.

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:55 am on April 7, 2006)

That sucks donkey ballz, dude. Considering how much you have invested. I mean, damn...I know guns are powerfull but compensating for range with damage is busch league. Especially when you're using a ceramic.

I've always been a method that incorporates range into combat. The way its accounted for in SR is marvelous. I really don't know what to say, I've posted on this issue before...but while we're on the topic of combat rounds.

LOSING A COMBAT ROUND FOR EMOTING SUCKS! :mad:

I realize that, at the time that katanas were refactored, I was the only person actually using a katana.  I know people get mad when my character kills them, and I apologize for that.  I just don't see why I should be penilized for the choice of weapon I made.  

I don't complain when someone kills me with an MK in three shots while I'm wearing x05.  I don't complain when someone blocks my katana slash with a SEBURO.

I don't complain when I critically miss against a memento ganger on the first combat round with my new ceramic katana and it -breaks-.

I will complain though, when 12ue and a cheaper weapon gets me more damage than then uber-leet long_blade and specilization.

I tested my theory out today.  I attacked some memento gangers with a p7, they all died within 3 combat rounds.  None of the gangers hit me, and I did not miss once.

I attacked with my katana, under the same circumstances.. and I was hit twice, and I miseed three times.  On top of that it took 4 combat rounds too kill the ganger (with blood loss from wounds) and I did the katanas 'demon' attack which is as far as I know, they best attack katanas have.  

The times I didn't do the demon attack, it took five rounds.

I like your idea with ranged combat and I've seen it at work in Straylight Run.  Seems to work very well, actually.  I agree that there needs to be serious work with the balance between firearms and melee/blade weapons, but I am obviously not a coder, so I feel I remain powerless in this respect.

There has of course been issues in the past with certain characters being increibly powerful with their long_blade skill, and several other players complaining about it.  For this reason the code was altered, and perhaps too great an advantage was given to firearm users.  This is still a heated debate, bother playerside and adminside, and several people are at odds over this.  Personally I'm not sure what could be done besides some extensive code reworking, or the above possibility put forth by Nemisis..  Of course, even with this, I'm sure more issues and complaints will arise, so who knows what a viable solution would be.  :(  But in my opinion, something has to be changed.

I agree with Nemisis and Chaos. I think that people who have taken the extra time and skill to put it into long_blade should be rewarded just the same as those who use pistols. I will admit to using the blade IC, and I must admit, given the time I have spent to raise my stats and skills and being much weaker than someone who uses a pistol... I dont think that is how it works. I mean IRL a katana slash will almost guarantee death unless treated immediately. And depending on the pistol, it could do anywhere from a good hole to taking a giant chunk out. But generally you will not die immediately with either weapon, short of the lucky head shot. Normally you die of blood loss, and that takes a few minutes. So, yeah, this system could definitely use a lot of tweaking.

It's not so much the fact that I think a katana does more damage in real life than a gun shot, though that is a decent point.  It's hard -not- to hurt someone with a blade, and with a gun you can choose a bit better where you hit, it's the fact that the way the system is right now..

Well, an amature can do more damage with a gun than a professional can do with a blade.  I think it's silly, literaly, it makes me laugh, and then tear up.

(Edited because I was ranting pointlessly)

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:13 pm on April 9, 2006)

And then what about those who ICly use a blade and arent as tough as Nemisis... we really get left to a disadvantage, because -anybody- with even a little skill in pistol can take us out with little or no effort. How long has this system been like this?

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight?

If I sneak up behind you and slip a knife in your back, it's going to do 1/3 the damage of a bullet, even if I know exactly where to stab you, in order to kill you?

But why would the giant knife be so much weaker than the gun?

Alot of hypothetical situations here.....

You really think that it's realitstic that I can do the same damage with a Ruger 9mm that I can do with a katana, given what my skill in pistol and long_blade is?

Both of you have good points. I think long_blades should definitely be brought back to be almost equal with pistols. If Nemisis' character has spent the time and money in order to get his skill high enough to take out just about any player he wants, then that's one of the benefits of his age. And anybody that wants to fix it should do it IC, not by making katana's weaker, that's kind of punishing him for doing -too- good and surviving for to long.

Plus, if I can't do much damage with a katana, what about the rest of the players that decide to go with a blade?  They are screwed.

I remember when any newbie player could just buy a machete and they would absolutely dominate anyone they fought if they had a little bit of long blade skill.

Now, it looks like someone has over-compensated and made the long blades too weak to use.  

There should be a happy medium for this that both sides can agree on.

(Edited by InsaneRadical at 10:29 am on April 9, 2006)

(Edited by InsaneRadical at 10:30 am on April 9, 2006)

Yea, one day a happy medium will be found that everyone can agree on.

Machetes and katanas were made weaker and at the same time pistols were made stronger.   I'm not saying machetes should be super uber, leave them the way they are, there a cheap, crappy weapon.

It's katanas that cost the same as a high priced pistol, that have messages that describe people getting cut to ribbons and only do the damage of a ruger that are the problem.

if there is a message that says you cut someone to ribbons, shouldn't that do about the same damage as a headshot from a firearm?

Yea, I think machetes would only be able to do so much, they wouldnt be slicing things to ribbons, they're too dull in general(I think). But what would be cool is to make things even, make katana's tougher and maybe machete's a little bit tougher, and pistols a bit weaker.

I don't think machetes should be tougher, there tough enough for a weapon that costs less then 1000 chyen.  

Yea, they're kinda cheap...

And you would think that slicing someone to ribbons would just as much, if not more, damage as a headshot from a firearm.

But the only problem with that is that if you made it so that if you sliced someone in the eck with a katana, they're done... they aint gonna be fighting for a while.

So there has to be a medium where it will do enough damage to match a gun, but not soo much that it dominates the gun and makes them so tough nobody fucks with the street samurai.

Getting shot in the neck would do just as much damage as getting your throat cut I think.

Yea, i guess it'd depend on who got attacked first. But if you sliced someone in the neck it would get their jugular(Sp?) indefinitely, where as a gunshot would gon in and out... but it might get your spine... Like Biohazard said, lot's of different situations could happen.

That idea for range combat makes sense to some degree, but what about disarming?

If you are facing somebody with a a blade and your opponent has a pistol, if the guy with the blade has to cross a distance to attack, then shouldn't the guy with the pistol have to cross the same distance to disarm? And vice-versa? It introduces a factor X, distasnce, that's impossible to calculate for every situation.

And how will you be able to slip a knife in someones back, i.e. one hit kill or something, if when you initiate combat your opponent immediately gets a few rounds to either escape or prepare themselves?

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 3:48 pm on April 9, 2006)

The way I put it forth, if the person with a non-ranged weapon initates combat, then there is no ranged combat.  It is considered close combat, since the person with the non-ranged weapon would need to be close to the person in order to iniate combat in the first place.

So ranged would look like this..

Bob has a gun.
Jack has a knife.

Bob swings his gun towards Jack.
Jack sprints toward Bob, trying to close the distance.

Bob shoots jack.
Jack runs toward Bob, trying to get close enough for an attack.

Bob shoots jack.
Jack slices Bob.

Non-ranged combat would look just like it looks now.

Jack lurches toward bob with his knife.
Bob levels his gun at Jack.

Jack slices bob.
Bob shoots jack.
etc.

Ranged combat only comes into play if the person who initates combat is using a ranged weapon.

Ah, I see. Well that makes perfect sense to me.

Of course, you can put in a check that decides if ranged combat is even a factor.  

IE: Is the fight taking place on a street, or outside somewhere?

That way, you don't go into ranged combat attacking someone in a cube/apartment or in a vehical, or in a jail cell, etc.

I'm just posting here to get my name in every player accessable topic as the most recent poster. I really do not have anything to add, other than this:

In cases where a blade or gun does critcal damage, things like limb loss and death hits are planned for the future. So, on a crit hit to the throat a katana could sever the head, thus, combat is over.

But, at this time, we are way more concerned with things like the Grid and like getting the weapons we have finished.

Yeah, but the things someone can with a pistol while having NO skill and shitty stats is rediculous.

Yea, ReeferMadness hit it on the head. Way to much power in the pistol.

Assuming nothing major has changed in the combat system (I know there's been some changes), someone with no skill and shitty stats should have very VERY little hope of doing much harm with a pistol.

I'm vaguely aware that a year or so ago Wren contacted me to tell me he'd "fixed" a problem in the combat critical hit/fumble code. I can't remember the details, but I know he had singularly misunderstood the function of the code he had "fixed" which was meant to cause low/no skill characters to have a significantly higher fumble/critical fail rate than more skilled characters. From what I recall, he removed/changed the code that converted low rolls to automatic fails...

This may/may not be a contributing factor if low/no skill characters are proving dangerous in combat.

Its possible but this problem is only restricted to pistols, I believe.

Yeah, I have decent unarmed combat skill, and I hit people less often then I do with a gun.  I also, like I have said before, when facing memento Gangers, have a better success rate with useless pistol, then I do with extremely high long_blade and specilization with a katana

Oh and also, I have noticed that I as well as others, dodge -better- when using a pistol, then with other weapons.

Well hell...

*invests UE in pistol*

Has this changed? At all?

Heh, I'd actually look into this if I could just to find out if my balancing was wrong or more recent changes have unbalanced things. I spent hours running speeded up combat simulations (hundreds of attacks per minute :D) and never saw anything unusual on pistols.

Weapons were definitely redone post-rastus, this i know for sure. I'm just concerned if its changed at all since then.

I have actually seen a bit of change with it. I mean, I still think some weapons are needing a bit more tweeking, but it isnt anywhere near what I saw a few months ago.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 10:05 am on May 5, 2007[br]Weapons were definitely redone post-rastus, this i know for sure. I'm just concerned if its changed at all since then.

Well, technically I didn't really touch weapons themselves much when I was working on combat, mostly just added the required properties to generics and left the setting up of individual weapons to other people. They no doubt needed the refactoring Iga did because prior to that weapons had been created in several incomplete stages of combat code written by various people before even my time.

I'm more interested in a so called bug that was fixed which wasn't actually a bug. Long story, but short version is I was accused of abusing a bug in combat because I beat down a katana wielding oldbie using brawling fresh out of char-gen.

Combat was designed to be heavily player influenced by use of frequent tactical posture changes according to your opponents posture, choice of weapon and paying attention to the result of the previous attack. The fact I wrote the system unfortunately meant I knew the exact best thing to do in every circumstance for that particular fight (unarmed vs melee) so I kicked ass. As a result I'm told the "bug" I supposedly abused was fixed and I know for a fact that the fix I was told about would leave combat pretty severely broken in terms of how the various postures are supposed to interact.

Course, that's all conjecture given that it's based off information from people who were more interested in accusing me of cheating than having a rational conversation about how the system worked. ;)

Yes, I took advantage of posture to it's full extent before code was added so that the posture would not take effect until the next combat round.

I have to agree that postures were better off where they were in most senses.  I would go offensive for my combat round, defensive for when I was too take an attack, etc.

That's what made the system usable.  I don't see the sense in it the way it is now.

Thats kinda depressing.