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Starvation
Automated @idea from in-game

@idea from Seven

I don't know if this was addressed at the town hall meeting or not, but I had an idea about eating, and the lack of it, in the game. People catch drinks and stuff like that, but don't really eat much food. I was thinking, it would be cool, and realistic if there could be a message attacked to a person, kinda like the message you see when someone is addicted to drugs and hasn't had any for awhile, it could be like... "Bob is in excellent condition, but looks hungry." or "Bob is in excellent condition but looks like he hasn't had a bite to eat in months." or something like that. You could even go so far as to have negitive stat effects if the person doesn't eat in a long time. I think its a cool idea to get people to eat on a more regular basis.

I think that is on "the list" (tm)  there have also been some who say buying food all of the time would be financally taxing on noobs, and those who don't log in often. I have little opinion on it either way except to say that if it is put in place that there should be more places to eat added to red.  

Well, here's some poop for you to ponder.

1) Fatigue and hunger and how it relates to it is high on my personal priority list.
2) It can't be prohibitively expensive.
3) It needs to be realistic.
4) It can't be a nuisance.

So... Given thoes requirements, we're going to have to go a bit of a different route. Realistically people would need to eat 3 times a day to stay healthy. Realistically expecting people to log in to eat 3 times a day is simply out of the question. So the only way to effectively accomplish this is through automation. Specifically a 'cost of living tax', which you had some control over (how much you spend on yourself). It would be assumed that in the times when your not RP'ing (logged off and asleep in your cube), your character is taking care of himself according to how you adjusted your preferences. Of course you can choose to (or be forced to from lack of funds) not handle it automatically, in which case manual intervention would be required (eat pizza).

And really this can be the solution to a number of other aspects of the game which we cannot expect people to micromanage, or are simply too boring to RP.

So this, and more, is definately on the list.

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 11:31 pm on Nov. 14, 2003)

It about time that damn list was TMed.  Now for my thoughts.  The amount you need to eat could be based on how much you are logged in.  This way, people who only get on for a little while each day don't have to spend that time eating and those who are on a lot more will be able to take those little eating breaks, since they have more free time and most likely money since they're on so much.

I think that sounds good, you only are expected to eat when you are logged in, but if you don't log in for say a few days you would have to immeadately eat or suffer the effects.  the problem I have with assuming you eat and draining your bank account/pocket/wallet accordingly is that you cannot also assume you work and pay you so maybe you should assume the two costs offset eachother while not logged in. (my charcter personally makes much more than it would cost him to eat, and I don't expect to be paid while not physically logged in but by the same token......   ya know?

maybe it could be somehow figured by the place you stay, or your resources, for instance if you have so much in assets, or if you live in westinghaus as opposed to a cube, then it can be assumed that you have the resources/steady income to offset the cost of feeding yourself without paying.  unfortunately that would only hurt noobs and the people who are already poor so that may not be the way to go either.

finally there are plenty of people who eat far less than 3 meals a day without any negative health effects so you may want to lower the requirements as far as that is concerned.

also dietary suppliments, vitamins and such should probibaly also be added.  espically with 2088 technology for those of us who cannot afford expensive and good tasting food you should be able to take a meal in a pill type thing.  eating REAL food would probibaly be more of a luxury than a requirement.

the problem I have with assuming you eat and draining your bank account/pocket/wallet accordingly is that you cannot also assume you work and pay you so maybe you should assume the two costs offset eachother while not logged in.

Well I did say 'other things', didn't I? And we can safely assume that working at SHI is BORING as FUCK...

I envision a day were you go to SHI, and work. You also hit up Tony's, and grab a slice to eat. You go home, and adjust your personal offline preferences. Avalible to you is the option to work at SHI, and eat at Tony's. You can turn any of them off, but if you do you gotta do em yourself. So you log off, and 24 hours later your only mildly hungry because you ate an hour ago, and 120 chyen richer.

Course your never going to be super healthy if you only eat at tonys all the time, but the option to eat elsewhere isn't avalible yet because you don't know about it (you've never eaten there), and you'll never get rich on 120 chyen a day, so the incentive to find a better paying job and better food is very real.

But this is just brainstorming, so feel free to tear it apart. Obviously there would have to be some restrictions on it so it didn't get abused by people who are trying to make an easy buck and cube squatters (you know who you are), but it would solve the problem of having to eat, paving the way for fatigue, and freeing up the player from micromanaging a VERY boring process (work..... work....... work.... count chyen, search here, work..... work.......) while leaving the opertunity for the RP that would normally be generated by these places.

-Kevlar

I like that idea.  But you'd have to put some limits on it.  Like maybe if you don't login for a week, you stop going to work, or something.

as most admin advocate the big money is in the jobs you make for yourself, for instance I can work as shi for 24 hours and only makd 2400 but I can also log in and do 'other *jobs*'  and make 24k in a couple hours, granted that's extreme, and I also go days making nothing but you see what I'm getting at here.  and once again if this is implimented there should be more places to eat on red.  

I think Kevlar has a very interesting solution here.  There's always been discussion on what exactly a character does when the player is logged off.  With this implemented, we know at least a few things they'll be doing.  If this is implemented it could maybe open up other options in the future (though to be honest, I can't think of any right now..  its way to late..  so I'm gonna go to bed now).

Woo.

Options abound in my opinion.

And Jotun and Aikao have the right idea about it: It's to enable people to RP more, and worry about boring stuff less. It's not to make people rich, or replace player run jobs. And yes on the mentioned limitations (plus more which havn't been mentioned to prevent abuse). Even paying your cube might be an option. But the idea here is that you'de have to manage your activities to a small degree in order to stay healthy (heal normally and be unfatigued), safe (in an apartment which isn't crime prone), and make any money in the process. If you don't bother to advance in the world, you'll end up constantly fatigued and unhealthy, and/or broke, and/or dead. But it will no longer require hours of sitting there typing 'work', or having to remember to eat constantly to advance. People can concentrate on the RP, and leave the rest to the system.

-Kevlar

-Kevlar

In the system Kev and I have been formulating slowly, you'd designate a certain amount of time (say 8 hrs) for sleep and for work. If you're logged off for 6hrs, well, we assume you slept for 6hrs, you don't get any money, but you're rested. If you're offline for 12hrs, you wake up rested with 8hrs sleep and have already done 4hrs of your workday. Go runaround, RP and then disconnect and reconnect 4hrs later and you're richer by 1 days wage cause you got your 8hrs in.

By designating how much you need to set aside for certain things, we can remove the need of managing those mundane details of life like sleeping, eating and working.

This ofcourse must consider the 'trapped runner' who is hiding from those who want to keeeel him or her. How exactly is the system to know that you shouldn't of been able to get to your job because mixers X, Y and Z are staking out his place of employment? A perplexing problem indeed.

though I'm sure this is not the way your going to handle it: I would definately not want my charcter leaving the safety of home while I'm not at the helm.  

yet how could you realistically say that you worked?

also would you have a choice of what jobs you would like to preform eg bruce or shi?  

you could really finish all of your bruce runs in just an hour or two, or less even.

It would only work with places where someone has been previously hired. Bruce and SHI are 'at-will' jobs where salaried positions like a NLM Reporter or a Tailor working for a shop are based on a more formal agreement of work. Note that those two examples have additional requirements of employment and you wouldn't be able to say, not publish articles for the reporter position and keep drawing a salary indefinitely. It would be assumed that the work being done while offline is the mundane stuff.

Jotun said:
I would definately not want my charcter leaving the safety of home while I'm not at the helm.

Yeah, and this is the crux of the problem. You don't want to risk getting hurt while offline. And the guy standing outside your cube waiting for you to step out to go to work doesn't want you being 'ported' to the office to do your work. So, we need to detect this state in some way and know you won't be going into the office.

Some would say, 'put the burden on the guy using the offline feature'. Sure, we could leave it up to the player to disable his offline working before he logs off, but then you run in the guy  who's connection sucks so bad he can't connect sometimes, randomly, for an hour or more at a time and during that time, his character is wandering around the office! What do we do for him?

A mess to say the least.

It wouldn't replace Bruce runs.

It would replace boring, non-interactive jobs like SHI making them more like sallary jobs. And I'm thinking you'de only be allowed to have one place of 'employment'. When you start working at the Drome, your 'offline SHI' option disapears, because you'll now make much more at the Drome. Likewise when you begin that new Teksoft Job...  Bottom line is you'll only have one place of employment avalible to you. And chances are the employer will be paying you once a week. It's likely SHI will do the same. And they'll likely be depositing directly into your bank account... the same place this system will likely draw from first for expenses.

As for how you could 'realistically' say you worked:

It's like going to the bathroom: You never actually do it unless someone's there to RP it with. Same with this: You never actually 'go' to work unless your online. But it's assumed that in your off hours you did in fact take a large healthy crap... I mean work.

We will trade immigination for realisim and take certian liberties in the cases where it promotes RP, and eliminates an undesireable and unnecessary aspect of the game.

But obviously there has to be a ton of  checks, and ballences that's put into this before we can rely on it... Like the problems Johnny mentioned. Perhaps a solution to that would be that you do have to show up for work on occasion, and make your presence known there. Or perhaps a more aspect-oriented approach is desireable.

I'de love to hear more thoughts, questions, suggestions, comments, and ideas for this, as we obviously don't have all the answers yet.

-Kevlar

Y'know....I had this idea once about how people might actually care to feed their character if it could stimulate RP. Like maybe by...ordering out for pizza or something, getting a courier to bring it by...
Didn't work.
Like at -all-.
That could've been my fault for various reasons, but in general I think that getting some automated system of getting players AWARE that their character actually requires sustenance is a good idea. Or reminding them. Whatev.

Hey. Maybe that can be another NPC job, like the Bruce runs...characters can go to Tony's and to run as a delivery person, then cater to all the 'sleeping' characters who want Tony's...they get directions to the residence, then slip the pizza under the door, get paid somehow, oila! And the pizza disappears or something, but the character gets 'fed'.

Ummm hope that was clear.

WOW  lena is really on to something with that, I think that would be a kick ass idea, as well as just being able to order out when you were on too, if you wanted someting.  

now here's another question:  what about the chummers that have less traditional jobs:  fixer, thief, bodygurad, etc...

A bodyguard working for a corperation would (most likely) qualify. A private Red bodyguard wouldn't.

Fixers make enough money on their own and generate RP. There's absolutely no reason to remove any aspect of that particular job... If anything it should be 'extended' by providing more opertunities, not simplified by taking the interaction out of it.

Same with a thief. It's an interactive job by nature. This is in stark contrast to working somewhere like SHI: A terribly uninteractive job.

This is to eliminate the boring repetative tasks, which hinder RP. The minute RP is affected negatively, we wouldn't be doing it. And realistically you'll make more as a (good) thief than you will at any sallary job any day of the week, so the 'You have to work for it if you want to advance' aspect of the game isn't replaced by this... rather it's made more fun because your freed of the menial tasks.

I like the pizza idea, but you'de have to realize that you probablly wouldn't be able to order, only deliver...

Or would you?

-Kevlar

hey! hey! hey!

I had some of my very first RP experiences at SHI bout a year ago when i first started out...

back in the day when people actually worked at SHI instead of looking for the faster/easier/quicker way to make money. PSSH i say to them. when SHI was hoppin, it was great RP. the first person my character met was at SHI and they still have contact with eachother.

and pizza delivery, eh? hmm... great idea, i think.
be a trick to work out...if there was gonna be a PC delivery person job. it'd make for a nice script though, the whole calling up process and all that good stuff...

Yeah, do, I met some important people as far as making some sweet cash and having some good rp at SHI.  That was, of course, when people actually went there.

all the more reason for a public library, could have info on the effects of drugs, an up to date list of laws and the max penalties... could go on and on, but would probibaly be a spot to start rp.... this is off subject but what happened to the casino?  that would be an excellent place for rp to begin as well...

The casino is there, isn't it?  You just can't get in if you're poor like some people.

it's there, but it's closed down by the wjf.  unless there is some IC things you need to know that I don't to get in, then it's closed down.  could someone let me know one way or the other.

unless there is some IC things you need to know ...  could someone let me know one way or the other.

Umm... no. As you pointed out, that would be IC information.

Sorry...

-Kevlar

WELL THEN THE FUCKIN THING IS CLOSED DOWN!!! AND SHOULD BE REOPENED TO THE PUBLIC.  IT WOULD MAKE FOR GOOD GOD DAMN, MUTHERFUCKIN RP.

When there is a shortage of places which could potentially generate RP, I'm sure it will be.

In the mean time, something like 80% of the rooms in the MOO go completely unused. And lots of them are publically accessable.

As the code for gambling is terribly incomplete, there's no need for another room with no functionality when there's allready a ton just like it surrounding it.

-Kevlar

*throws some dice in the middle of the streets of gold*

How did this thread go from starvation, to a library, to the casino anyways?

*runs off to gamble with Hirononbu on the streets of GOLD*