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Price Changes!
some stuff is worth more

You'll find prices have changed on some every day items. As part of our effort to improve the variety, balance and utility of certain weapon classes, we have adjusted the prices to reflect the true value of these items.

In some cases, this will seem really extreme. Some of you are no doubt richer than you were 30 minutes ago.

Additionally, prices at all npc run stores have been adjusted to appropriately consider rarity. This means the majority of prices have risen, while some items are now even cheaper than before.

The prices are pretty steep.

Most excellent! Hopefully this will lead to more variety in weapons used, and the better ones being properly valued. With how easy it is to make chyen nowadays it did seem rather pointless to use the cheaper melee and bladed weapons. I actually used a "lesser" blade for a while with this char because it was smaller, and therefore easier to hide in the clothing they wore at the time. Now if my char gets killed, I'll have to actually give serious consideration to which weapon to buy.

The price jumps are pretty steep, sure, but it was kinda silly that you could easily buy a very good bladed or melee weapon with only a single day's pay. Frankly I think prices for a lot of goods should be higher across the board. When I played Lance all those years ago, and he had chyen flowing in from all kinds of illicit ventures, I never had the degree of free spending money as I do now playing a mere non-combat char doing ordinary jobs. It's fun in the sense that I can try out things I wouldn't normally, but it's really a bit immersion breaking. I doubt many other players will agree to anything that makes things harder though. :P

You really think that all these awesome weapons would be cheap? :P

And: Yes for more variety!

I was already bored with all the katana wielders...

I damn near lost my mind when I first saw this. I paused, stopped and contemplated it, and realized this wasn't so bad. Not to mention I was bored with street sams (read katanas) like 8 years ago. So I'd basically put up with -anything- to make them more balanced vs... well pretty much anything.

My only question is: Though I see the value, both in the crafting, and the potential for damage in a cricket bat, or bo staff, etc. Who the hell is going to pay somewhere between 9 and 30k for a melee weapon on RED? I mean let's be honest, a large part of the purpose of melee weapons on RED is that their improvised/cheap/readily avaliable/disposable type things that you bash someone's skull in with and then throw away. Nobody working SHI, or ACME is going to dish out a months pay for a finely crafted stick(BO), when they could, for all intensive purposes, dig any sort of rebar/brick/2x4 out of any random pile of trash anywhere in town for free are they????

Pricing that high really makes any store full of stuff that costs 10k+ on RED unrealistic IMHO.

In conclusion, I do see that price is trying to be more oriented to destructive potential of a weapon, and though I don't disagree with that line of thought, take a third and fourth thought on the situation. This move is basically saying, you better have martial arts or brawling if you have no money, because pummeling someone with random objects costs you 6 months pay.

In concert with these changes, you'll find your machetes are now called 'heavy bolo machetes'. You'll still find just regular old 'machetes' around, they're just cheaper and not as good.

Additionally, we've added the wakizashi as another long-bladed weapon. This is similar to a katana, but not quite as bad ass.

Both new items are in game.

Jotun, do you really think we do everything out on a whim? Prices were setup after weeks of discussion and, believe you or not, monitoring and gauging how much money players make per periods.

Yes shit will be expensive, but it is expensive across the board and across all skills. Some weapons are better than others and yes we took into account game balancing to the prices. We didn't just look at it a couple of times. Several different people have looked at all the items prices.

And yes, we expect a mixer to save chy to buy that nasty skull crusher. They do so to buy Katanas and guns...

And if you take six months to make enough money to buy a sledgehammer, I'm sorry, but then you forgot how to make money in the game. But actually seeing how much money your character did from the 10th to today, discounting your current living costs you can buy the most expensive melee weapon in under six weeks. And that's because you're not doing as much money you can do in a week... But hey we didn't look twice before repricing stuff, right?

Oh yeah and we surely forgot that players can take loans, steal and murder for gear...

Do I think you do things on a whim? NO, Do I think your pricing bares no sembelence to the actual price structure of a store selling sporting goods or tools and every bit on damage and the fact that you worked hard to re-tool them? YES. The point I'm trying to make that you seem to miss is that if I choose melee as a skill it is, almost by definition on SD, a weapon that is generic in design, and well somewhat improvised. If you go to a clothing store they are not going to price a shirt on how well you can choke someone with it, and if you go to a hardware store they wouldn't price a wrench on how well it bashes someone's head in. To do so ignores the reality that red is a place that is shanty-ish, and probably is in dire need of all sorts of tools for their intended uses. If I'm someone who prefers to bash your skull in with random objects than that's exactly what I'm going to do, find random objects to bash your skull in with, not go to a store and spend a fistfull of my hard stolen money not to mention what little brain power I have on trying to figure out which club shaped device will crack skulls better than which other club shaped device. I'm going to pick up the closest and heaviest club (or brick, or axe or sword) shaped device and get to it. Finally since, in a real world that were similar to withmore I would probably have no trouble finding said weapon shaped device in most random dumpsters or alleys, the pricing ruins the gritty reality of cracking someone's skull with a bat, then tossing it in nearest chute before the J's show up. Just because an idea has been discussed for a length of time and agreed upon by multiple people doesn't make it good, no offense, just look at our government, they prove that on a daily basis.

You can still find and buy cheap melee weapons. Actually you can buy cheap weapons on every hand to hand skill. You actually do have improvised weapons in game too, I made sure that even a pack of cigarettes has damage ranges and skill progression. What you're forgetting is that Sindome is a game, and a role-playing game not a simulator. And for that same reason things have to be balanced taking into account the game mechanics across all weapons and skills.

Again all your argument is based on assumption that you know how things are and how they should be. Unfortunately for you, this is not the case. Before I did anything to the melee weapons about 90% of them were useless, now they aren't and have been priced accordingly. If you think this change is a game breaker for you, then feel free to stop playing the game.

I am well aware that you are going to do whatever you want, regardless of what those of us on the outside of the all-knowing iron curtain say. Unfortunately I love this game, which means that you aren't going to stop me from posing ideas, comments, and yes sometimes even constructive criticism and arguments if it is my opinion that it would better the game. Un-bunch your panties and keep the game quitting talk to yourself please. Thank you.

Jotun,

I understand and respect your point of view. It was certainly taken into consideration. I ultimately made the decision that it was more important to support the gameplay mechanic we wanted to see over the realism.

You'll have noticed that is a trend we've moved towards this position over the years. In the early days of Sindome, death was much more common. You could and people did, kill sleeping player characters. There wasn't even 'dying', just 'KO' and 'corpse'. Resuscitation didn't exist. Corpse cloning wasn't there at first either.

Some things have to be done for the fun of the game. The purpose of a weapon, honestly, is not RP, its to kill someone or something. We have continually paid attention to the balance of important systems, and the weapons were languishing in this regard for a long time.

We're also not done yet.

Hey, fellow players. Once again we made some price changes. These were made to firearms across the board. Long story short: they are cheaper

That doesn't mean that they are legal or easily attainable inside the city. But they now cost less. This is to reflect the weapon balancing we're doing to them.

I'm bumping this, as, it's come to my attention that the new prices are a surprise to some players who are returning after a long time away, and weren't around at the time this repricing started happening.

Yeah...stuff just seems fucky I guess. 'Newsfeed' lists a job opening for a Senior TV Producer at NLM making 30k a week. Urban Outfitters or whatever in RED has brass knuckles for 26k. Brass knuckles. For what a senior-level corporate gig pays in (more or less) a week. I'm less interested in what exact figures seem to be 'realistic' or not so much as, like, ratios / comparisons, you know? Now I'm sure stuff goes for cheaper in other stores, blah blah, but, like, how is that shop in business?

It's all in-game economical balancing. Try not to think about logistics and more about things being done for the good of the game. Have vs have not is definitely still there but weapon rebalancing along with some other things play heavily into pricing.

This thing again? I already responded to all your questions on the posts above.

This is a game and some game mechanics will exist. Specially when wildly different weapons come to do similar damage. Then we price them similarly just to make sure we don't have everyone using the same weapon because of damage and price and instead do RP choosing a weapon based on style for their character.

Well, to be fair 'This is a game...mechanics will exist' is a self-evident and nonsensical statement. I get what you're trying to articulate, though. Mechanics need to indeed work to make the game function in what we might call a reasonable manner, right? Sure. But all it looks like to me (as the prototypical someone who has returned after a long time and is confused) is trading one apparent kind of 'unreasonableness' for another and I just don't see why it was necessary. It balances weapons in some way blah blah blah, okay, but what it equates to ICly for what have to be treated in IC, RP ways (because that's the core of everything the admins seem to want, right? Which is a good thing) is -- well, let's think, I don't really know what an equivalent contemporary example would be, like, what does a senior TV producer at NBC make in a week? If I'm in an approximation of RED sector, the seedy part of town where barred-window pawn shops sell mostly guns / knives / etc., and I see some brass knuckles for that kind of money, at the very least it demands an answer to the question 'How the bloody fuck is this place in business?'

Balancing this weirdness because it makes something else less weird is just dealing in a weird false economy. Balancing A at the expense of B now not making any IC, RP-driven way sense is just plugging one hole while making another one, the boat still isn't doing what it ideally should be.

If the IC answer is along the lines of well, Mixers these days tend to be able to make on average 26k a week more or less, or at least the ones who are doing things that make owning an entry-level melee weapon is desirable, so it's a solid fucking pair of brass knuckles and a week of saving sounds about right, then all I'm getting at is, well, if that kind of inflation is at work these days and/or we're just going to write that weirdness off as a necessary hole because blah blah weapon variety, then that's fine if it's adjusted that corpies make some kind if equivalent-isn increase in income, because if at the end of the day the book isn't balancing. A senior level corpie gig should not pay the same as even a fairly well-connected mixer doing nice business, or regardless of chyen figures they should have the ability to effect more 'power' in weaponry for the equivalent passage of time -- i.e., for the same comparison of time/work, a mixer should be walking into a fight with say those sweet brass knuckles, where a corpie has the means to walk into the fight with armor and an assault rifle, or more corpie-esque, to hire a seriously lethal goon-on-retainer-to-get-the-dirty-work-done.

If the IC answer to that disparity is that the way things want to be handled is hey, maybe we want fairly connected, business-savvy Mixers to be able to have equivalent financial leverage as that senior corpie gig. If that's the case then why is RED still such a shithole? What's the point of being a chy-hungry corpie slave? What RP do corpies have when because of some OOC game mechanic jabber they don't bring much more to the table than some entry-level street thug in RED? Where's the disparity between the haves vs. the have-nots that is seemingly pretty central do conflict and tension in Withmore? Oh no, copies smell bad and sometimes lose SIC to a brownout? That's the RP-driving turmoil between the incredible (alleged) class disparity?

This is what bothers me, is all. My immediate thought at seeing the recycled brass knuckle example is 'Well, through the way RED works, surely because of theft and murder and blah blah it's almost certainly brass knuckles go for significantly less at player-run stores or on the black market of players trading with players'. But then either the owner of Surplus and Shit or whatever store, it must be ICly accounted for, either is making money elsewhere and keeps his store stocked with expensive shit no one will by for some unknown reason, or he's going to go out of business because he's charging like 5x what say the Dark Shop does (I have no idea what the price is elsewhere, it's sort of immaterial).

And I'm terribly sorry if I'm troubling the admin with this discussion, but I had concerns / questions that hadn't been covered necessary or fully and I wanted to voice my opinion, I figured that was a fairly okay thing to do? If my answer is 'We thought through stuff, we like the change, STFU', then, well okay, sweetness, I'm glad I'm back.

I get the drive for variety, it's an age old problem in game design, how do you have variety among a class of items when, realistically (and stylistically, one could argue) some weapons are simply going to do more damage / be more badass? Sure we're all sick of nothing but street thugs who all seem to have katanas / train long_blade, but that's far more ideal to me than, like, hey, we want variety so now sledgehammers and katanas do roughly similar damage and cost about the same because the choice should be whether you want to be a sledge'ing badass or a samurai badass. That's probably hyperbolic example, I have no idea how they actually compare in those ways, but I'm taking your statement to its logical conclusion and it just sounds silly to me. Does a sledgehammer person with solid melee skill have as much chance in a fight as someone with an SMG and SMG skill with equivalent stats, etc.? If so, and it's for the sake of 'style choices / sake of variety over path of most success by the numbers' kind of thing, it's just getting sillier by the moment.

Hey motherfucker, I missed your ass! Hit me up in game when you have a chance and I'll talk some sense into you. But basically the keyword is "similar damage".

On Ike's, Trancer's, Nicad's, XeeThot's days we had katana, one or two pistols, two knives, one smg and maybe one melee weapon that were 'good', and those were about 200k to get. Their being good was being usable, because they actually had an attackset that made them work and also had real damage on them. Comparatively a good weapon had about 10x more damage than any other bad weapon.

Now what we did was to create progression on weapons. Both from skill increasing to different weapons. So if you are terrible with short blades, you'll be terrible with all of them, if you are ace, you'll be ace with all of them. Of course one will cut a bit better than another but that is how things go. As an example we had all shitty knives (all of them but the stiletto, kuhkri and nailz) and you did single digit damage on all of them. Now you can get a pocket knife and do very high damage if you have the skill. To the point where I've seen players choosing one blade over the other based on style preference.

The same now happens to every weapon in the game, and for an oldbie like you this will be great news: even to martial arts.

Just remember it took us over 8 months to get the weapons correct and that was just the first pass. In the future there will be both cheaper and more expensive versions of most weapons. One example are the wakizashis and the heavy bolo machetes that are cheaper versions of a katana (same movements, lower damage for the wakizashi) and more expensive version of the machete (same movements, higher damage for the heavy bolo machete).

We're also going over them in the future to modify bonuses to stances, where one weapon is more offensive and another is more defensive and perform differently in different postures.

Since we have done this in such a way that good cheap weapons are readily available, even the unarmed ones, from day one of a newbie, we have to get something for the have-nots to look forward to, and even for the haves to look after. Hence things got more expensive, but other things got also cheaper. And yes we used damage range to calculate the prices, but that's because players will always be players and go for the cheapest weapon with the highest damage. The thing is that the cheap weapons aren't useless now as they were before.

One solution to this problem might be to change the 'flavor' of the high end weapons to better match the price. Those 20,000 chyen brass knuckles? They aren't just a hunk of brass shaped into punching form - they're tricked out with shock-absorbing knuckle guards and impact-amping nano-pistons, and they light up every time you punch someone. And they're called something rad, like FLASHKNUX

Indeed. We can say they are platinum knuckles ;)

Hah! Yes! FLASHKNUX indeed. I -really- dig that shit. Weapons that are literally flashy is pretty damn cool. A katana that flashes red pulses manically when it detects blood along the blade...

I definitely see a thorough, textured gradation among weapon item qualities being very much the answer to the 'weirdness' I felt, and it's cool to know that's sort of (seems to be?) the way you're all headed. That was my only real grip / confusion, acknowledging the need for the balancing as a game mechanic, but it just felt difficult to deal with in an IC way that didn't feel a bit absurd. I picture brass knuckles in some shop on RED being like, standard cruddy crude entry-level melee weapon, and at 26k? Huh?

I'm also, as a tangent, really supportive of any ways being thought up that really increase that feeling of class disparity, I think it's a monster of an RP engine. I always thought the SIC brownouts were a subtle genius little touch, back when it was implemented. The recent RP event in the Mix (not to get too IC'ly with details, but I assume most people know what it was) was great for this too, let's say characters sitting topside probably felt like 'Yeah, that's why I don't live down there! '

Just for clarification, brass knuckles are for 'Brawling' aren't they?

Melee

Ha ha.

I can't tell if you're serious or not by saying Melee.

I thought brass knuckles were a 'brawling' weapon and one of the only ones that use that skill, hence why they're so damn expensive. Of course maybe I'm just wrong again.

http://www.sindome.org/wiki/index.php/Weapons

Yes, they're melee weapons in the large sense of the word.

And they're for the Brawling skill.

Just my hypothesis, the weapons for the hand-to-hand skills need to be expensive, otherwise I think they would be heavily favored in risk vs reward.

Since 'Melee' is a specific bit of game terminology, let's not use the large sense.

Agree Vetra.

Also:

The wiki page is IC, and as such is not aware of/does not represent game mechanics and skill names.

With that in mind, it's not useful for answering the question about which skill brass knuckles are used with.

I can confirm that brass knuckles use brawling as they logically should.