Guided Discussion - Small Worlding

Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Ok! Thank you all for coming today. We're going to go for probably around two hours. I've got some topics within this topic itself so we're a bit organized and structured.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: While it's absolutely encouraged to talk with each other about your answers and thoughts, please: Don't talk over each other. Please do show respect for each other. Remember, we're all here to have fun, create stories, and for some of people... hedonistic cannibalism.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Our first subtopic: How has smallworlding impacted you and your enjoyment of conflict and interacting with others and the world?
Mikael: Are we free to speak?
BeforeTheWhispers says, "Well. I havent been here long but I can say Ive seen it way to often, and by the same people. Sometimes its so blatantly obvious and you would have to assume they KNOW they are doing it."
Staff Logic: Indeed. :)
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Yes, please give any thoughts and answers you have within the subtopic. That is why I brought it up!
Errant: It really detracts from the sense of the game world as a living and breathing world.
Errant: Which, at least from my perspective, why a lot of come to this game specifically. 
Mikael: I think the worst thing for me has been vehicle smallworlding. There are probably millions of vehicles in the dome, countless buggies, scarabs of the same color. Yet people assume one car or one aero of a certain shade of black belongs to one character. That has certainly caused me many issues in the past, including being AFK targeted because my vehicle was a certain shade of black that nobody else OOCLY saw elsewhere.
svetlana: Yeah the scrutinizing specific shades of black paint is so insane especially from people who should have no coded artistic knowledge.
BeforeTheWhispers says, "Same with ponchos and hoodies."
Pladdicus: It hasn't really. I haven't been in a position where anyone OOCly wanted to destroy me so I think people play pretty cool about it. But, I also think it vastly depends on your style of play, and I think there's a lot of IC explanations for how someone can find out information I don't know of. So like, sometimes people insist someone is small worlding when they have IC justification. But, I am not as in the pits with the stuff that gets people smallworlding.
Errant: There is absolutely a lot of that, but I wouldn't restrict it to just vehicles.
Mikael: There have been a few times now where I have parked my vehicle in obscure places, went to sleep elsewhere only to find it broken into. With no other identifying feature, I even had chameleon plates and such. I also know there are other ways to tell in game besides that, but still. I've also seen people quickly call out my characters name over SIC when they see a vehicle driving by.
duck: There is these instances where you're suspect because you're known to use a certain kind of weapon.
Terrible_the_duck: There's been multiple ocassions where i've had players come after an event with a 'gut' feeling. With no evidence, with no proof and with near no reason to actually why a character would aim to do whatever they did to the person. They just have what they call an 'instinct.' At that point you know what you're doing but you're bleeding into the game and you're running with it hoping that noone cares enough to call you out. 
Errant: I don't think there's anything wrong wwith being a suspect, but without other corroboration being the only suspect is a problem.
svetlana: I hate when people give me information that they gained by smallworlding, and then I don't know that the information was collected in a way that breaks the rules, so I start parroting it to others like a dumbass. And then I get accused of smallworlding by passing on the info I got from others who were being bad actors.
Mikael: Yes. That is also extremely horrible, just because one character has a rare weapon that nobody other active PC may currently utilitize doesnt mean you should immediately assume its them, with only that descrption of them using that weapon.
Mikael: That has happened to me several times now.
PainFeeler: Honestly, it always kind of surprised me that we have shrouds to throw people off, but not NPC vehicles just driving around here and there. It would make the world a bit more lively, I think.
prozorovsky: Good old they have a shotgun, or there is a buggy outside my apartment, I am going to die.
NightHollow: What if the 'evidence' is motive? Most RL prosecutors establish motive before evidence, then seek the evidence. Starting where who would want to kill this person or have them killed? Who do they usually hire for solos? Do those solos use X weapon or have X vehicle type and color? Is it their MO?
Jengris: I have had a few pretty specific things happen to me that led to my characters death that I -strongly- suspect is small worlding, but I'm afraid giving the specifics would reveal who I am.
Errant: Same.
duck: Change the identifying details, then.
Pladdicus: This is kind of my problem. There is no clear guideline on what is small world vs what is the obvious evidence given to you by the game. Everyone has to engage in bizarre double think.
whatislove: I can agree with Night in regards to that. Who hates your guts? Who pays people to remove those guts as evident in the past, or even by word of mouth or propaganda spread?
Mikael: There may be only one active PC with a H&K, Ceramic Katana, Thompson ETC but icly there are hundreds of thousands of super solos with the same loadout. And these corporations/organizations would realistically hire many more operators who use these kind of weapons than just one consistently.
Necronex666: The issue is that there's no investigation NightHollow. The assumption is treated like it's a conclusion when someone is smallworlding.
Pladdicus: I am sure sometimes it is very blatant, but.
NightHollow: I think rare weapons count as a unique identifier if you look at who may want to kill someone and who may hire someone. A unique weapon is unique, a million people don't have it, right?
svetlana: I got tricked by characters who said 'Ohmygosh there's a shroud outside your apartment that's waiting for you', and then when I took precautions based on that info I got called out for smallworlding. It was embarrassing and frustrating.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We do have a help smallworlding file. For evidence, I always stand by the thought of: one piece of evidence is one piece. But that piece of evidence can apply to thousands of potential suspects. Gathering additional evidence and narrowing the field rather than getting one piece of evidence and pointing it at one and only one person are two distinctly different paths.
Pladdicus: If it is the same solo for the third time who has killed you, why wouldn't you assume it's them on the fourth? Yes, there's million, but is it really small worlding to not have your character recognize basic patterns?
NightHollow: How would you know there's no investigation though? Everything I just gave as an example I could theorize to myself about in a matter of minutes. 
Mikael: Yes, it is unique. But it is not a unique identifier. If you see a lamborghini in times square, that's unique but you dont immediately know who it is.
duck: A shroud outside your apartment is suspicious, unless it's a spot that routinely has shrouds just hanging out for hours on end doing nothing.
NightHollow: You have an idea if you know people who have them, you get to use them as potential suspects, especially if you know what they do for a living, where they operate, and who they usual operate for.
svetlana: It was on the street outside.
Jengris: Graffiti was placed in a place in a way that require a certain set of skills. And I feel that, being the rarity of those skills at the time and the precautions taken, my character was singled out for being the only PC with those skills awake at the time and no real evidence.
whatislove: There is an expectation that you as a character should take precautions to prevent OOC identifiers. Atleast I think I read that somewhere in a help file.
PainFeeler: Issue with smallwording is that you kind of have to purposefully put yourself in more danger and kneecap yourself, for no reward other than the satisfaction of not smallwording. I understand that RP first, but it can be really damn painful. 
Errant: It's kind of the game we signed up to play though, right?
Mikael: Yes, but if someone says over SIC 'oh my god im being attacked by someone with X super-solo tier weapon!' I have seen people just immediately guess one person, because they are the active PC with said weapon. That makes no sense at all.
svetlana: I think a lot of us don't really understand what constitutes smallworlding so when GMs do Dome-wide shouts about 'read help smallworlding', I don't really know if they're referring to me or someone else. 
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: But there are thousands overs who also might do the same thing for a living, operate similarly and have crossover clients. For any kind of job. Our request isn't that you kneecap yourselves, but rather involve others to gather data for you if you're lacking and to search out why something might've happened.
BeforeTheWhispers says, "If all you have is one color poncho, and you use it to go visit a place frequently. No matter how much you change appear, people still tend to small world it is YOU because of said colored poncho."
Mindhunter has joined the channel.
svetlana: What if the people who you hire to gather data for you, end up smallworlding?
Enven: True, but there's very much a difference between the 'people playing for narrative' and 'people playing to win', and for the former, forever getting punched in the jiggly bits because you put yourself out there tends to get old. Smallworlding is just one part of that.
Necronex666: You can't prevent OOC identifiers completely because there are so few characters on Sindome. If someone wants to guess who did something they'll probably be right most of the time. It's okay to 'know' OOCly and still take steps to investigate ICly.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: You cannot control how others act, you can only control your actions and how you interpret what they bring back. If someone brings you back data that it had to be this person at this place at this time, there's no harm in asking how they came to those conclusions if you're worried there was smallworlding involved.
prozorovsky: I don't think anyone signed up to be killed/whatever as a result of small worlding and cheating.
Beepboop: One problem with ponchos. Ever after ponchos began revealing footwear, smallworlding became more rampant because people now know the difference between NPC ponchos and PC ponchos.
NightHollow: I think you also have to consider that there isn't other data, the game world doesn't give us much examples of the same type of people doing the same type of activity, there are no NPC solos with X weapon in X color X armor with X vehicle of X color killing people for X corp. You're told to just assume it happens, what data do you gather to rule out the person that fits that likelihood through your lived RP experience?
Mikael: I think there must be multiple unique identifiers before you make assumptions of a certain PC., if all you have is that they used a ceramic katana/thompson/shade and then assume an identity due to once active PC using those, that is 100% small worlding in my opinion.
Errant: I can't remember where I heard it, might have been Slither is one of the old tutorial videos, but we're here to tell awesome stories with each other. I don't know that winning is the goal, or even possible. And sometimes losing can be even more fun and interesting.
PainFeeler: There may be 1000 people with tommyguns in the city, but there is far fewer people in the city who have a tommygun and also have a desire or reason to kill me. 
Terrible_the_duck: It's ok to know OOCly but you should be taking steps ICly to RP correctly around the matter. The game isn't about winning everything. It sucks to lose sometimes but we're here to tell a story are we not? Isn't the reason we're here to write a collaborative story together? Win or lose?
MrJDucky2: I always think back to my FiveM days when I think of RP. The good Roleplayers never thought of it as a game to win, of course you do have situations where you did win like shootouts etc, but we never played to win. We played to progress stories, to do random stuff etc. A lot of us took the step back to ignore stuff that we could see and hear, because it made things interesting. We didn't automatically assume x was y because they had a specific walking style, we had to go around and gather information etc. I think my point is here, is that it's up to ourselves to police ourselves and use common sense. Don't use the gamer brain, user the Roleplayer brain to wonder what's going to make things more fun and interesting going forward.
Beepboop: You have to realize, it's in human nature to try winning.
Errant: 'I know this is who killed me OOCly, now I'm gonna roleplay finding that out ICly. By playing the game.' At least to me.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: There's nothing stopping you from thinking of random NPC encounters out in the world that might've happened or data on random ambient NPCs to bring back. I've had experiences where someone asked characters I've played for data, and I've brought back data on PCs and NPCs that didn't exist to the story.
Beepboop: It's hardwired into each of us.
BeforeTheWhispers says, "Yeah but some people are clearly playing to win so much that it's not fun anymore. Especially punching down as hard as some tend to do."
Pladdicus: This is part of why I am trying to encourage people to oocly consider that this is not a game where we are enemies and if you start having rivals in an OOC sense, you ought to step away from the game.
Errant: I don't think anyone was saying we shouldn't try to win. Just that I don't know if that's the goal we hsould be aiming at.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: This is a conversation on smallworlding, not punching down. While I understand there's a lot of thoughts on that latter topic, lets try to stick to the current one for sake of staying on track.
Ociex: It is important when a death happens, to chase threads, talk to fixers, corpsecs, mixer bouncers, judges, gather info, until you get there, and if you don't get there? Then shit happens.
NightHollow: I think it really rings of playing to win when you're upset people are identifying you on your MO When you wear the same colors, and use the same gear and vehicle every time you kill someone though. That's a problem in and of itself, how do you avoid smallworlding if they make it so routine?
Ociex: One will not always find out, and thats okay.
MrJDucky2: Change up your MO.
Errant: The act of finding out who did, however you feel about it OOCly, brings in so many other players and RP chances. 
svetlana: The concept of smallworlding is definitely something difficult to wrap one's mind around. It's a unique cognitive exercise that many people struggle to do, especially after an IC loss when emotions might be high. It does not come easily to me, to ignore facts and experiences that I notice with my own eyes. 
svetlana: It's hard to remind myself that there could be thousands of people with the same description, for example, or that one notable car is just one in ten thousand. I am trying my best, but sometimes I mess up and feel extremely guilty after.
Mikael: Regarding that, I do think we have one clear difference from other muds. We are a PVP game, not a hack and slash PVE. I do think you should icly play to win, or have your character try to win. But without sacrificing the narrative, realism or rolelplay. in the end, it is still mainly a roleplaying game. It is ICLY pvp, oocly a collaborative story. I will admit a rare IC rival is also hard to find, and it can be difficult to trust someone to roleplay like that and ignore OOC knowledge when you could take advantage of it.
Beepboop: Yes, but people often don't realize that they're trying to win, as per it being human nature to try winning all of the time, so they don't really think of smallworlding. I often catch myself about to smallworld, /OFTEN/ but I usually don't. Some people don't pay attention to what they're doing.
Ameliorative: People want to win, though. As a general rule. So when the game gives them tools they can use to win, they tend to use them TO win. Smallworlding is basically the codeword for an unspoken honor system being broken to the point where people just fall back to what the game is telling them vs what the world is telling them.
Mindhunter says, "It is easy to say change your MO when you are code locked into it though."
Ameliorative: The only way it can really be addressed is if the game makes it OOCly unclear to the players affected as well, which is something disguise already tries to do.
Errant: Your character absolutely wants to win. So, in RPing that character well they will try to win. I'm not saying there's an issue with that. But, I think it's important we OOCly keep the reality of the game and smallworlding in mind as we do that.
Mikael: I agree completely, Errant.
Necronex666: Following what Beep is saying, people just do shit when their emotions are running high too. You clone out and your ace kool tells you they think so and so killed you, and you take it at face value. Sometimes it's right. A LOT of the time it's also dead wrong and you go after someone who wasn't involved, then they get hit and they're confused.
PainFeeler: I think Night made a very good point. I feel like a good half of smallwording complaints is from the people who do not try to disguise themselves or their actions except by throwing on the same poncho they used 5 times before this week. 
Staff Logic: I think a few things that are worth considering in combination are maybe a weapon type - more specifically a preferred weapon model. Look for one piece of identifiable clothing or body mark (tattoos, piercings, etc.). Look for motive. Look for tech in the area that I died. Look for people that went mouthing off in sic and see who they are allies/enemies with. My personal opinion is that if I don't have at the very least three of these, I probably shouldn't be pointing at anyone yet. Unless of course finding the real culprit of x crime was never the point.
svetlana: Necronex666 is so on point.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: There are millions of ponchos among the population. They are not rare in Red or Gold at all. Ponchos in and of themselves are not suspicious, criminal or an AHA! moment of identification.
Mindhunter says, "A lot of people just throw on the same poncho because they're just going to be smallworlded anyways and the disguise is primarily to disguise themselves from the game at large."
Mikael: I also agree that alot of small worlding complaints come from people who dont know whats going on behind the scenes. There are alot of ways to identify people besides just looking at them, thats only one part. There is grid 4.0 and advanced programs, as well as security cameras that can pick up on details you havent considered.
Beepboop: Only thing I could do is to suggest to discourage smallworlding is have temporary NPC vehicles duplicate currently active vehicles, and temporary NPC ponchos duplicating currently active ponchos to avoid smallworlding.
Staff Logic: I think that last point is important. Sometimes someone might be blamed because it's convenient or because I have my own motive. Not because I think they really did it.
svetlana: Also identifying someone by their hand @nakeds is also smallworlding.
Mikael: That depends svetlana, not if they have like unique tattoos or something.
Errant: I think a lot of people just ignore disguise in general. Whether that's people doing the 'disguise' or people just pretending that they should know THIS poncho is the one I'm looking for.
svetlana: true, true
duck: ...unless they have a giant target tattooed on their hands.
Jengris: I think as a comunity there are some small culture changes we can make to help the smallworlding issue. For one, can we stop making IC jokes about it?
NightHollow: Also, is the person who believes data from their friends guilty of small worlding? Are they responsible for questioning every data point they get to decide whether they use it? What if you don't want to pry into their sources? While you may think someone specific is smallworlding, they might be innocent and just listening to what's being fed to them, which in my opinion is actually good RP, you're letting yourself be led along to further a conflict, it could be all made up or lies just to make someone else hated or get the blame. Where do you draw the line?
Mindhunter says, "The IC jokes are a pressure release valve."
BeforeTheWhispers says, "I have been disguised and walked down the road, just to get a private sic to ask where I'm going. So it's not a people not disguising issue."
Necronex666: NPC shrouds exist but there are players who avoid /all/ shrouds if they don't wanna be hurt, NPC and PC alike. NPC vehicles won't stop smallworlding, it has to be either a conscious effort by the community or GM enforcement, and the latter is an unrealistic proposition because of how busy they are.
Jengris: An example I feel like we have all heard is that 'Eden is the only Decker in Withmore, didn't you know?' I saw that one coming up as a new player all the time.
svetlana: NightHollow that's my main frustration, exactly. 
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Please don't mention character names or data in here.
Mikael: I will say that PainFeeler had an absolutely amazing idea of making NPC vehicles drive/fly through the game, pop up and park somewhere just to disappear. I dont know how hard that is to code or how much space issues that would cause, but that would make vehicle small worlding 10000x better.
Jengris: Sorry, that one gets blasted so much that I figured it was aight. My bad.
Beepboop: Actually, NPC shrouds can be easily identified ever after they nerfed ponchos for PCs. No feet nakeds, or footwear? NPCs.
svetlana: they changed that yesterday actually!
NightHollow: I think Fengshui just fixed that, ya.
Beepboop: Oh... I'm a bit behind, good to know.
Bix: Small worlding is rife when it comes to less common skillsets. Oh someone got ripped at 5pm? Must be BigButtBob. Someone took cams down at 2pm? Definitely SharkskinSandra.
Necronex666: NightHollow, that's why I also brought up people playing telephone before. The onus is on anyone who gets their hand on the data to make sure it's been verified. On 2019 SD there was a fixer who'd buy data from me but they would ask a bunch of questions to make sure I wasn't pulling it out of my ass.
PainFeeler: I really don't know why not just give NPC shrouds some generically coloured kicks. 
Jengris: But thats an example of the IC jokes. I find that to be problematic. It brings an OOC mindset into the IC world.
Staff Logic: He did fix that. But that speaks to another issue that you're already discussing as a group. We shouldn't HAVE to make Feng do extra work to get people to play fair.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: A good response, Necro. And again, all shrouded and hoodied NPCs now have additional clothing items and mimic PC disguises.
Mikael: There is a difference between IC jokes and IC parodies which accuse someone of a certain kind of behaviour. You shoudnt be accusing someone of being a meta cheese ball through an IC perspective.
Beepboop: Good, good.
svetlana: I'm so scared of making a mistake and accidentally smallworlding that i've just started not wanting to investigate any death/attack/person who was responsible for something.
Errant: Not engaging in small worlding benefits everyone. 
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I'm going to introduce a new question here shortly, so any thoughts pertaining to this one feel free to get out now.
Ameliorative: On another note, have NPCs driving memento vehicles been considered?
Pladdicus: For what it's worth these are cultural issues, not mechanical, nor administrative. It is good if we can help the culture with things like that, but they aren't chiefly necessary.
Errant: It would be an excellent cultural change we could all make together to improve the game.
NightHollow: Necro I am not sure the onus is on the person receiving data to verify it.. I feel like its on the people spreading it, and they could be spreading false data to you, which just so happens to be correct in reality, but who knows?
Beepboop: Yeah, NPC driving memento vehicles is a good idea.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We are not, right now, interested in creating memento vehicles (but I do have vehicle smallworlding on the topic list for later on).
svetlana: But if you act on data spread to you that was gleaned via smallworlding, then you get scolded for smallworlding
Fay: Sometimes its near impossible to have concrete proof of a event to point a finger. Not played that long, but noticed most investigations, bring a lot of hearsay, and circumstancial evidence. How I handle it, if there are a few pieces of circumstancial evidence pointing to Bob, example, paydata said so, clothing, gear and shit, says so, vehicle says so. I work it as, then 80 percent chance its Bob. And patterns, its hard to ignore patterns, heck in real life, patterns is a big part of a investigation. Past that, got nothing to add to the convo, don't really face much Smallworlding issues.
Beepboop: Yeah, people who got smallworldly data from other people shouldn't be scolded, they didn't know it to begin with.
Necronex666: It's on both parties. We have to all be aware that sometimes people make guesses, and hastily spread them around without thinking. You can question someone on why they're so sure about something that happened literally five minutes ago.
Pladdicus: Being credulous is not a GREAT defense for small worlding. You can be scolded a little.
Mindhunter says, "If you get data that sounds like smallworld data you should question it."
Enven: That's unfair, Mindhunter.
Beepboop: Yeah, but people often don't really think about it, people usually assume that they weren't being smallworldly.
svetlana: I wish we didn't have to cross-examine our data sources to make sure they're not metagaming. I wish we could just trust the info we get from people to not be gathered via metagaming.
NightHollow: It's really unfair, questioning data can also get you in a world of trouble with other people...
Mindhunter says, "I disagree, you can question whatever you want to meet your criteria of good data. If it sounds small worldy, dig deeper."
Pladdicus: Being scolded for small worlding is not the end of the world, just bee a little smarter when you act on second hand data. And treat it IC, smallworlding can be WRONG. That's vital to keep in mind. People smallworld incorrectly ALL THE TIME.
duck: False accusations and even false convictions are a thing, it's a human trait to accuse someone without having all the facts or good evidence.
Staff Logic: You can easily ask someone how the person was identified rather than asking where they got the data.
Beepboop: Hmm... what if.. you xhelp the data to ask staff to see if it was acquired through smallworlding means, or not?
svetlana: Yeah, but I do not like to be a person who has to get scolded
Mikael: You can easily determine if something looks small-worldy by asking one question. That question is "Why do you think that?"
Pladdicus: That is totally fair, svet.
Beepboop: So it could be dropped.
Ociex: That would put extreme use on GMs
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: A good question to ask, Mikael.
Enven: Beep, that'd mean, effectively, constant monitoring of what everyone's doing, all the time, always. That's a lot of log hunting from staff.
Mindhunter asks, "What do you mean get scolded?"
svetlana: If your friends tell you to watch out because there's a threat, and you start hiring people to protect you from the threat, and it turns out the threat was a dumbass 'Oh I saw a poncho in a public space'.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: And leads us into our next subtopic!
Beepboop: That's true.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Our next subtopic is: What steps do you personally take to avoid smallworlding?
NightHollow: Mikael, the answer to that could be don't ask, or it could be "i saw it.", you don't know if the person is trying to set up the target of the data being provided. 
svetlana: I mean getting an xhelp message saying that I need to be more careful to not smallworld.
Terrible_the_duck: I think even if you question data, where they got the data or where they found out something, I tend to get the answer 'Something just felt off' or 'it was a gut instinct'
Mikael: Well, if that person replies with 'don't ask' or 'i saw it.' ask them what they say, and if they refuse. Why would your character just believe anything? Would you believe that IRL?
whatislove: But even if we press questions into potential smallworlding, what gives a perosn IC motivation to give you correct information? Its a sink of hoping someone to have the IC answers and be willing to answer IC in order to simply 'prove' something.
svetlana: I hate knowing that I messed up in a way that required gms to have to waste time on me
Mikael: If someone says something while refusing to provide evidence or proof, thats pretty suspicious and woudnt make sense for your character to wholeheartedly believe I think.
Mindhunter says, "I don't see how you making sure your info game is tight would lead to an xhelp but that is not my discussion to have."
svetlana: It wasn't, it was me acting on info given to me by others without questioning them.
Mindhunter nods.
Staff Logic: If I got a response that it's a gut instinct without any real data, I would immediately question if it's really who the informant thinks it is.
Terrible_the_duck: The problem there is, what do you do about it beyond taking it to the GMS and bitching that someones smallworlding.
Enven: Half the time I poke into where someone got data, I get 'Are you doubting me?' or 'I can't give up my sources.' And ignoring data just because someone didn't lay out the step-by-step of how they got it to make absolutely sure it isn't smallworlded is... Dumb.
Terrible_the_duck: Exactly Enven.
Mindhunter says, "It is not dumb, and if you think it is dumb, that is a you problem."
whatislove: agreed En
Necronex666: It's not always possible but having multiple sources confirm the data is ideal. Techs, deckers, informants, forensic specialists, solos with loose lips - anybody who can be a source of information then you take it altogether to make your mind up.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Some steps I take to avoid smallworlding are asking: how many people might have this type of weapon or this type of vehicle? If I'm going towards an area where something is happening or did happen, how late did I arrive? If I see someone vaguely matching a description in a different room nearby, but not in the room, and some time has passed, should I think they're THE person or they're just a person there?
svetlana: I guess in the future I need to be more discerning about what data from others I take action on.  
Fay: Don't really need to question your source, its a piece of the puzzle. Just make sure your data source, isn't the only source. 
Mindhunter says, "There is nothing wrong with questioning your source though. Especially if you are paying them."
Enven: Necron, I agree, but then you run into the other end of smallworlding: The game's only so big, and everyone is only like 3 degrees of Kevin Bacon away from each other. 'Trust but verify' inevitably turns into the person you're looking into -knowing- that you're looking into them, because of the 10 people you could ask, 8 of them are friends with that person.
Staff Logic: You can tell them to stop being a baka and to make sure they're sure. You can spin it into RP. Are you sure that's who it is or is that who you want it to be? You realize x person might not be your only enemy, right? Etc. 
Mindhunter exclaims, "I think NOT questioning your source is kind of the root of the issue sometimes!"
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Questioning a source, whether directly to them or internally thinking about what they said and wondering how they came to that conclusion and seeking a second opinion/investigation are also good steps to take to avoid smallworlding.
Jengris: Steps that I take are actually pretty simple. I look at my stats before I try to get info out of something. Is my character smarter than perceptive? They may be too busy thinking of over thought ways to catch someone that did something to them for me to even type a look command on the car they got into. Does my character even know anything about cars? Or weapons? If my skills say no, then I don't even include the clearly named item for -me- into their assesment of the situation. I might know DAMN well who it is, but -they- don't.
svetlana: I guess I was naive and just assumed that people would not give me data gathered from smallworlding.
Pladdicus: I think if you feel you may be smallworlding being cautious of that person is fair, but taking action against them is not. Does that make sense?
Terrible_the_duck: Great advice there Logic actually. However, there are certain players who will blow that RP over their head and double down on their 'gut feeling' for no reason.
NightHollow: I think it's potentially better for conflict RP to just believe someone is giving you accurate data because it's the quickest way to forming grudges, and making more RP out of a death. Especially if your character is naive, it could be inconvenient for a killer, especially if the data turns out to be CORRECT, but even if you never know that, you still have furthered a whole character arc for yourself and someone else. A situation where I experienced this I had two people give me data, one person said "It could have been this person, this is their usual kit." and the other person was "I know it was this person, because they've killed me before." We spun it around a bit and it went no where, so the only RP to get out of it was to run with it and see what stuck, and you know the response to the data being used made the person look actually guilty, so is there a problem with that? Can't you press an issue in RP to see if they goof up and let themselves slip?
Ameliorative: I don't think I've ever had a positive experience come out of questioning a data-broker that didn't angle towards some variant of 'you think I'm playing games'?
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Playing to stats is also something that can help against smallworlding, Jengris! You're absolutely right. Is my character perceptive or intelligent enough to piece these clues together by themselves is also a great question to ask.
whatislove: And notes! Notes notes notes. I think a big part of avoiding smallworlding is stepping into the notepad, jotting down the things you've learned from who, past experiences, how your character can piece together puzzles, is a good way to try and self police smallworlding, because staff can see some comparisons you're making and go 'hmm, this doesn't feel quite right'.
BubbleKangaroo: Test
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Enven: You got me, Amelio.
BubbleKangaroo: I try to treat shrouds/masks like they're not real people/strangers any time I meet them.
NightHollow: I don't interact with them unless they interact with me, just like felibots, since people got upset people would notice felibots in any given area by default. 
BubbleKangaroo: But the bots are visible for the same reason every PC is by default...
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: There's nothing wrong with the general concept of believing the data you're being told and hyperfocusing on someone that may or may not be the culprit in theory. It can lead to interesting roleplay when you're wrong. But you should leave notes about the why, the motive. "My character is choosing to believe this data because they're angry and want to lash out and blame someone because they're hurt." or any other number of reasons.
Mikael: What I want to commend staff for, that i've seen before, and would like to see again - are puppeted SIC aliases bringing up alternatives of different characters in the past who have used the same type of weapon. I remember when someone assumed X person were who they were because they used a tommy gun, and a puppeted SIC aliases came in and referenced it could be some retired legend/PC that was active many years ago. This does 1) make people realize they're small worlding with a gentle IC push from the staff end, and creates an alternative for people to bring up even as a name so theyre not completely stuck.
NightHollow: Don't they just small world that it was likely that legendary PC coming back?
svetlana: oH yeah speaking of aliases, I hate when people accuse all unknown aliases as being 'alias hoppers'. 
NightHollow: I witnessed what you're talking about, smallworlding was replaced by smallworlding.
Sulfurado: I don't think I have had smallworlding issues recently. But sometime ago it felt like avoiding smallworld was used as an excuse to deflect some things a character did to mine. Like, how many times are we meant to take 'coulda been anyone else chum, millions in the dome' before we can connect the dots, if like, every time you see someone your pockets end up lighter?
Jengris: Ooooh, man, the alias hopper thing.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Accusing people of being alias hoppers without any indication does contribute to smallworlding. There's millions of people in the city. 
Enven: Sulf, the smallworlding conversation, imo, forever turns into "How far can suspension of disbelief reach before I cross the line into being intentionally ignorant."
svetlana: I witness that all the time. Especially since some  unknown aliases actually do 'disappear' off the sic network after saying something.
Pladdicus: Swapping into someones alias to check if they are hopping often feels like smallworlding. It'd be nice if aliases were protected when left for a short time, a few minutes. At least to ID someone use a decker.
duck: Oh yes. "I killed you five times, but how dare you accuse me now? Stop smallworlding!" 
svetlana: Someone did that to me once, stole my alias while I was making a random one-off comment on a different alias becuase they 'had a feeling it was me'.
svetlana: When I was purposefully faking a different personality on the new alias 
BeforeTheWhispers says, "Premium alias. You can own it. For a fee."
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: It is smallworlding and an example I planned to bring up at the end. doing alias WJF-Phil because you think Chief Justice Gerik Phillips is the only one who could've switched to #1Philfan to hype himself up is pretty smallworldy. There are tools in game to check for information involving sic.
Jengris: I aint gonna lie i've been guilty of the alias check before. I came to my own conclusion it was cheesy and stopped.
Bix: right but sometimes you have reason to suspect someone heavily too. If its private sics there's no cool down anyway so they can switch back too quick anyway.
Bix: a cool down on alias swapping at all could limit it. But.. also limits a lot else.
svetlana: maybe if you swap aliases, your original alias is protected for 30 seconds until you're able to swap back to it.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: A reason to suspect an alias hop can be pretty subjective. There's lots of characters who might hate or dislike a PC or simply wants to be a bit of a chaos gremlin.
NightHollow: I am not sure how valid it is, but I often think about this, I don't believe a lot of people who use SIC actually understand they have a 'tone' to their text when they think they're hopping.
Necronex666: That's not enough to assume it's a specific person, NightHollow. Not unless it happens repeatedly or you've caught them before.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: If you want to protect your alias, hire someone else to say stuff on sic aliases for you. But that doesn't mean people should just calias xalias to see if someone's hopping when we've got IC tools to identify people and with pretty quick speed in some cases.
svetlana nods.
NightHollow: It should be enough to make you curious though or to have doubts or suspicions to encourage RP in that direction though, also human nature.
Mikael: What if it's someone switching to that tone on purpose?
duck: I don't know, I used to recognize this one player from manner of speech across multiple characters very easily on another mud. When I told the guy, he was VERY surprised and didn't understand how that was possible.
NightHollow: Then you should RP in that direction cause now someone is trying to cause conflict, and you could be embracing it for them.
Pladdicus: It is worth noting that the mud community actually -is- a small world.
Necronex666: That's you recognizing a player's RP style/writing style and not their character, though, duck.
Bix: and thats more feasible duck in a box of 50 people maybe, not in a land of millions.
Mikael: Some of you guys are scary lol. I can't identify consistent speech patterns unless it's a very clear accent or they have special phrases they always use.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Again, there are thousands of others who might have that type of tone. For sic and smallworlding, I would ask you to look at it this way: some people dislike people who are incredibly chatty on sic and might overshare. There might only be a handful of PCs that do. But there would be thousands of ambient ones that did the same.
duck: You know your enemies and probably don't have more than 50 at a time.
Beepboop: I can identify speech patterns, but I ignore them.
NightHollow: I don't think people should just DECIDE it's that person, but like, it'
Terrible_the_duck: Literally...You're looking too deep if you're picking people oocly out for the way they speak and labeling them ooc.
NightHollow: I don't think people should just DECIDE it's that person, but like, it's something to think about, another pindrop of evidence to further your RP.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: And you can again also hire people who have the means to acquire data on that sic user for you. There's multiple ways to get that info besides calias checkthisalias.
duck: And only two or three active characters who have the required skills.
Mikael: It would be cool if there was a wait timer on ca-alias so people coudnt rapidly go through a list of aliases SICs to see who who might have hopped to make a pubsic comment.
Necronex666: The game is very small and if you don't consider your OOC perception is much greater than the perception of your character, there will never be any reason for you to spend time investigating anything. A good rule of thumb is asking if you could prove your case to the world, if you were ever pressed.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: This will stop in one minute but I'll re-open for the next hour. I'm going to bring a new subtopic up in just a bit, and that isn't true, duck. So any last thoughts on this topic feel free to get out.
Necronex666: PCs believe things a lot easier than an IC boss would, for instance.
PainFeeler: There is also an angle that sometimes it is simply convenient to blame everything on a particular character, even when the reasons to truly suspect them are very few, and even when they are actually innocent. It might feel like being unfairly and oocly targeted, even though such behavior has purely IC justification. Scapegoating, basically. 
A New Discussion has begun! The Topic is 'Smallworlding and The Fallout: It's Getting A Bit Out of Hand.'. Discussion will remain open for the next hour.
Staff Logic: I think it's a grey area personally with speech and writing. On one hand different people may not recognize their innate styles and don't make effort to change it. On the other hand it's IC if if it's IC. I've seen some pretty in depth IC analysis of writing that is pretty impressively used to identify certain authors across works of writing.
NightHollow: One of the things I hope that comes from this discussion is some people who claim small worlding, also realizing that sometimes their claims of small worlding, might be in fact, small worlding. It's such a double edged sword issue. You have to really assume based on no evidence that someone else has no evidence.
Staff Logic: In tandem with other evidence, I might add.
NightHollow: Yeah, I think it's like a good starting point for curiosity about identity on SIC, not something to just be the deciding factor.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For our next subtopic: If you've smallworlded in the past, intentionally or not, how do you feel that might've impacted a scene partner/target of conflict?
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I have definitely smallworlded in the past! It ended up blowing up a faction plot, got Judges to the scene, and me a talking to for it. I felt bad for impacting someone else's time and effort put into a story. It wasn't the end of the world for anyone, not even getting a speaking to, but it was a good reminder and lesson moving forward to do better.
Mikael: I remember an instance, nearly half a year ago or so when my vehicle was broken into and I immediately assumed it was one person which was small-worldy. It didnt change anything on their end, but I feel I might have robbed myself of potential investigation RP and also could have even allowed me to plot against them better by the way by finding others who were interested in working against them/ sympathized with my situation through my efforts.
Fay: I have small worlded once that I am aware of. Though didn't impact anyone, a NPC simply told me, they wanted more information the pattern recognition. That was the end of it. I couldn't logically get more then that, so simply let the entire investigation go. Past that, I don't know if I have small worlded otherwise, not told it was.
Mikael: Not sure if it was half a year or nearly a year now, probably closer to the latter.
Bix: I think what I have done, which is still smallworlding, is take advantage of a quiet time with less PC's about to do something like flyer drop or something especially. While there's no PCs watching, there's still a big ambient population witnessing it. This.. might then mean other people have to small world in order to find out it was me, because they cant question anyone. So, it can perpetuate it.
svetlana: targeting particular cars in particular garages, or writing down the license plates of cars that are parked somewhere, counts as smallworlding. I feel so embarrassed that I engaged in this behavior before I knew.
PainFeeler: I think it is fair game to do something sneaky in the dead of night. There will be less unseen population around too, given that people need to sleep. 
Ociex: I have def smallworlded in the past, a lot, and have learned through a long time of retraining to just not. -I- don't get to decide who killed me is the principle I live with now, gather data, a lot of it, if I want the truth or don't and just be content with being -wanted-.
Pladdicus: I was building a list of all the sic ids of people I knew, woof.
duck: What's wrong with doing that for the people you know?
Pladdicus: I would then check everyone I didn't against them.
whatislove: I think the SIC ID thing is more a problem when you're just doing it to random aliases you don't interact with.
Pladdicus: Basically scanning every weirdo on pubsic.
duck: Heh, okay.
whatislove: Or have a reason to interact with beyond curiosity.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: A common one we see with the introduction of some new abilities is rampant SICID gathering just to have that data. That's a great example. We make sure to talk to players and have a reason your character might look into SICIDs and gather them rather than proactively do it just to have them "in case."
Terrible_the_duck: When I was first in the game, i've definetly done similar to Bix. Used the fact that i'm on a different timezone to most of the dome to make moves, which practically negated me making those moves because noone was around at the time to see them. Then assuming that the streets were 'empty'. This shut down a lot of RP. I know my scene partners at the time were frustrated by it.
Staff Logic: That's a good one, Bix. We do notice when people make a habit of doing bad stuff in the wee hours or operating when their targets or sources of retribution aren't around. I'm glad you brought up the ambpop there too because not everything we see is only an ambpop consideration. We notice people doing blatantly not great things right in front of NPCs - even NPCs that govern those areas. Like a shop, gang turf, etc. It's important to treat NPC like PCs too to prevent smallworlding even when we're not around to see it or puppet a response. 
Pladdicus: Yeah in my case it was just an idle project I didn't even think about, then I realize, there's more people than I see on the sic list, my motive shouldn't be, they show up on who.
prozorovsky: I have done this. The sicid stuff. Got a gentle reminder: hey, consider that there is X many of these ID's that you do not see. Was a good reminder.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We'll move on to the next subtopic here in just a few minutes, this this one doesn't seem to have as many thoughts as the others.
Staff Logic: I use to have a smallworldy problem with cameras. I would see someone and immediately identify them despite that person being embedded within a crowd of hundreds of moving people on that block. 
whatislove: a puppet request to a ganger on a street to see if they've seen anything could lead to some great information, roleplay, and consequences. but i think some people see the potential time between getting requests filled as a such a negative thing, it would be easier to ignore that avenue of gathering info
Mikael: I have definetly been guilty of ignoring ambient pop and NPCs who are clearly there by doing crimes/ things that would alert them infront of them. I think if you are honest with yourself it breaks your own immersion, and leaves a bad feeling for yourself and the world you want to roleplay in. It's definetly something ive been working on.
Staff Logic: So I had to get better about letting people go by without noticing them.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Absolutely, Logic. And we will talk about cameras later more in-depth!
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: So that is a great example.
Fay: I try to limit excessive bad things in late hours, but sadly. its the only times I can play, heck 6pm gametime, is 3am for me. So its not really intentional that I mostly exist in times the game is quiet. But I do try to not do major things in those times. Sadly it limits my gameplay, but is what it is.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For our next subtopic, related to this one, we have: If you've smallworded before, what steps did you take to try to lessen the results and to make a better gaming experience for the person impacted?
Pladdicus: I try to reach out to judges, and have them tell me if I'm being a dumbass. They often do.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: And if you haven't taken those steps, what steps do you wish you had in hindsight?
svetlana: I have a lot of regrets regarding mistakes I've made in this game. It's hard to let go of them.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For my example from earlier, I wish I would've put my character in a vulnerable position so they could've had a second chance at what they wanted to do or at least a chance for some vengeance.
Pladdicus: I really have found that having internal IC paranoia is a lot less annoying to people when it's based on smallworlding, than justifying an act of aggression with it. I also think the game does a good job of not punishing you when you lean in to a consequence, but, your mileage may vary.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For others when I know people smallworlded, I try to discourage the rumors, accusations or make people put in extra work to come to the same conclusion.
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Terrible_the_duck: Rather than making those moves solo, I try to involve people in the moves. Get people to notice me doing it. Actively go out of the way to have someone along for the ride so data can leak. Rather than sneakily going off to do something in the wee hours alone. Have people around who can see what i'm up to.
Fay: For my example, I learned that patterns isn't evidence, circumstantial isn't evidence unless there is a few pointing to the same thing. And what I wish... I never contacted the NPC and made a fool of myself, and just let the strong suspicions go lol
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: A great idea, Terrible_the_duck.
svetlana: you can't change what you did in the past but you can try to do better in the future, that's the only way forward
Mikael: from the perspective of others, I wish people would @note down things they do in small hours that are in any way antagonistic, if it is in the streets or with amb pop. Like dropping a flyer or whatever when certain chars arent about, it is abit smallworldy. I then wish that there was a clearer way to gather data from ambient populations without coded NPCS, like I wish my character could find out the description of who woke up at 2AM to walk around spreading flyers about him on the crowded streets without there being GMS available for sic amb pop. If my character has resources this should be icly something very easy to find out, but there isnt a clear pipeline. that would be a very good way to counter small worlding and assumptions and provide more immersion/better experience for everyone.
Jengris: I have straight given people dead end info I found IC that could disprove a thought was entirely small world just to make them getbmore people involved to find the right answer. At my own characters detriment a few times.
Jengris: to disprove a theory I thought was entirely smallworlded*
NightHollow: I am sorry but why would it be easy for anyone no matter the resources to find out who woke up at 2am to distribute flyers potentially disguised in a city of 100,000,000 which should be active 24/7/365 given the population and alternative shifts/lifestyles?
NightHollow: Kind of feels like another example of smallworlding.
Mikael: I didnt say identity, I said description.
Staff Logic: Purposely talking close to doors where I can be spied on.
NightHollow: I think even that is asking for too much.
Mikael: If someone is constantly walking around with one set of hoodie/colored armor and spreading around specific flyers on the streets throughout multiple days, and my character is wealthy and has acces. it would make sense that he had an IC informant. If there was a coded NPC, you could always ask them. but there arent always coded npcs.
svetlana: I don't think that purposefully having bad opsec is the move, here, Logic.
Mikael: well its not, because if that was too much, asking coded NPCS who are also present would also be too much.
svetlana: This question is about how could you negate smallworlding
Mikael: by proving more ways for people to gather data/investigate you would be negating small worlding and make things more fun for others too.
duck: People do RL crime at the dead of night, too, because there are fewer people around and they're less likely to be spotted or identified.
Pladdicus: I frequently practice bad opsec because it's human. For small things. I like to leave bread crumbs. I think being willing to is good for removing yourself from a competetive mindset. THAT SAID. This does not suit top tier operatives, your RP does not support this, that makes sense. But for 90% of the corp cit, PR, HR, stars, or whatever, the bartenders, not being perfect at opsec is appropriate RP. Not mandatory just, okay to do!
svetlana: make people use RP to get closer to you or infiltrate your inner circle.
Bix: right mikael, but that requires people to make themselves vulnerable to loss. And while this game is intense RP it's also very PVP competitive. And that means theres many people unable or unwilling to vulnerabl...ise themselves on purpose.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: While my cat tries to eat my cheese, there's nothing stopping people from hiring late night lookouts either. Most of the characters who do antagonistic stuff at less popular hours are generally pretty good at noting, though always room for improvement. I'd also encourage people to look at help chatter for other ways they might gain data.
Bix: by design there's a disconnect there.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: You'd be surprised at what we put in there sometimes.
NightHollow: I just don't think that ambpop or anyone should be able to notice such a benign activity as spreading flyers, just to help people gather data, that's.. making the world smaller. 
Terrible_the_duck: This is perhaps an IC question. But can players create chatter?
svetlana: yes Terrible!
Brungus: Noting things down at the wee hours is a good idea. Something I need to get better at in general that I think would help with smallworlding and a lot of other aspects is getting better at keeping notes. I have too much of a mind that I shouldn't note down anything that isn't major to my character or their actions, which definitely leaves lots of voids in all the little bits of evidence or knowledge I KNOW my character should pull from, rather than little things I'd know myself. Also bad habits with noting down smaller actions, for sure room for improvement.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: They can and it's detailed in the help chatter file.
Pladdicus: Yes. It is very fun and cool to spread rumors. It has a whole mechanic.
Terrible_the_duck: Good to know!
svetlana: it's hard to get chatter from bartenders when there's more than 2 PCs in a bar though.
Mikael: I just think if we want people to better respect the game environment and realize that the mix is -ALWAYS- crowded, there should be ways to ICLY get info on what people are doing on the streets in any hours through puppets and such. I get there is bar chatter, but another way to do this is a way to access the amb pop.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: While we probably wouldn't give data on random flyer pass outs or have ambient population react too often, if you do something like throw a flyer into Larri's room spreading news that Larri is a god damn jake snitch, we might have ambient population respond to that type of thing.
duck: I also happen to know someone who had the police search their home for... spreading flyers (controversial but nothing illegal), it happens.
svetlana: yeah that happens in a lot of authoritarian countries duck
NightHollow: I think ALWAYS crowded doesn't mean more ways to get more information, I think it's more diluted as a result is all I am trying to say.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We'll switch to the next topic here in a couple of minutes to try to move this along. I'll probably stay after two for whoever wants to continue, but Logic might not have that time. So any thoughts on this current topic, please share.
Jengris: Always crowded streets does not account for being to get info on -everything- though. Some shit don't happen in the open like that.
Fay: Isn't always crowded a two way street? Sure there might always be people around to see, but finding the ones that paid attention to the 1 guy in a crowd of a thousand is harder too. Some people use crowds to hide there activity too
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For crowded streets, I think it's always best to approach it as: would this be something my character is specifically looking out for/scouting for/paying attention to and that also applies for NPCs that might be watching.
Staff Logic: I use to use crowds as a method of teaching stealth on an old character. Showing aspiring sneaks how to use the silhouette of a person along with a specific gait to melt into the crowd. Things like that. The crowd is absolutely a way you should be able to hide activity in an ambient sense.  
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For our next subtopic: Why are people so quick to smallworld vehicles (regardless of type). How can we address that (without adding spawning actual moving, idle or shutoff vehicles)?
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For that I would like to share an experience I witnessed two characters do about a year and a half ago: two characters were sitting inside their own vehicle and watching the traffic outside. A rare vehicle model drove by and the characters said to each other: "that must be X driving X's vehicle, there's only two of them in the city."
Ociex: This one always irks me, like there are millions upon millions of vehicles in the city, sure cause and corrolation, but still, people pinpoint vehicles so fast.
Mikael: Sometimes people might not realize it doesn't make sense to assume that, other times it's just human nature of wanting to win again. I wish people would step back and ask themselves, if I saw a car, could I tell specifically what shade of black it was? And If I saw a randomly colored car parked somewhere on the street, do I immediately know who it belongs to.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: While there might've only been two PCs having those vehicles, the vehicle itself was relatively common. Tens of thousands of them would exist and are in the game's traffic messages.
Fay: I have no comments on this, not faced that issue. If a vehicle does something weird to me, I note the numberplate, as I would do in real life. Other then that, a blue katana, doesn't really effect me, nor do I use it as evidence. If there is a word on a black van is seen frequenting here, I will look out for black vans, but makes no sense to me, to KNOW that black van is the target. 
PainFeeler: I admit to doing that sometimes, and it is always my brain going 'poggers, pattern spotted'. 
Mikael: But other times, I feel as if it's fair. Like, if your vehicle has certain parts damaged, even with a different license plate and you see x person to step into this, i think its fair to assume that a vehicle with those x parts damaged and that shade of color would be theirs.
Pladdicus: Some freaks(laudatory) really do put the work in.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Why would damaged parts be a telltale sign? There's tens of thousands to millions of almost every vehicle. A lot will be damaged.
Mikael: Also, if you know where someone lives and have seen what color vehicle they have. And they park the vehicle on the aeropad/garage of the building, I think it's not that out of the question to wait for them there to see if they show up.
Ociex: Mill- yes that.
duck: It's very easy to identify vehicles OOCly when there's only three or so of that type that get used regularly. And knowingly walking into certain death is -painful-. It's a lot to expect from a player.
Mikael: Right, but if you see someone stepping into a vehicle that's X color, and one part front is destroyed, and back part is scratched. I think it's a better identifier alone than just color.
Terrible_the_duck: I think the reason is honestly, people try to make pinpoints on anyone, they look for any discrepency in a players moveset and will jump on it. I'm very jaded with people IC telling me you 'must' be this to do 'this'. For example, assume all scarabs are driven by solos and if one lands near you, you're in trouble. Or eveyrone driving a dune buggy is your enemy.
PainFeeler: Punishment for not erring on the side of caution with a buggy of doom outside your window is often too damn great. 
duck: (when someone is out to get you and a matching vehicle happens to be parked outside)
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I would probably disagree on that one. Paints are not hard to change. Damaged parts exist with high frequency. If someone identified someone for wearing a black poncho that had a single cut across it must be this one person, that'd frustrate us, wouldn't it?
Pladdicus: The problem there duck is you are smallworlding the idea that there is not ALWAYS a buggy outside. Which seems reasonable in Red, and MAYBE Gold.
duck: I get the problem, but it's still oocly very hard.
Pladdicus: Oh, 100% agreed.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Now using it with other information like: I know Logic lives here. Logic loves the color road rage red. Logic drives a hoverbike. Logic is too cheap to repair his vehicle, now we start getting into a lot more data tied together.
Terrible_the_duck: I get that. But while there are no ambient traffic messages or the like. Using that info that a buggy is parked outside your pad is like...Saying it's sunny outside.
Mikael: I get that, but also,  if you saw a beaten up car in real life and you knew which panels and it was asymmetrically damaged all across with different severity, and you saw a the same type of car with the same kind of damage hours later. Woudnt it be safe to assume it was the same car?
Pladdicus: Let me ask this. You cxheck outside your poor, you see a poncho'd stranger through the peephole. You live in Red. Is it smallworlding to not go outside?
eggsaresides: Sometimes you can smell that bussy a mile away even through car doors.
Fay: Isn't area to be noted too... Buggy parked outside a corporation for example, or a High class living area, makes sense to single out no?
svetlana: @block eggsaresides
Mikael: Damage for vehicles is really specific in SD. Left panel is busted, right panel is scratched. Windshield is destroyed, back end etc. I feel like that's a good identifier along with color, but if the GMS dont agree i wont roleplay it.
duck: IRL, you have some extra datapoints that you don't have in the game - i.e. is that shroud acting sus or not?
BubbleKangaroo: Depending on where you lived in Red, seeing a poncho outside your door SHOULD be alarming.
Staff Logic: We're not sayin we disagree. We're saying it would likely be better as a piece of a puzzle. One of a few pieces of evidence.
Terrible_the_duck: Or it's just Tuesday and Scary Jerry is chilling in your corridor having a blunt.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Outside a corporation and just being there? No reason to single it out. On Green and lingering? There's a whole IC ruleset in effect that might color that situation differently. And just as Logic said. It's putting together pieces of the puzzle.
prozorovsky: I would think your characters personality and their stats play into some of this. If your character is very paranoid, cowardly with a good perception stat?
PainFeeler: I don't think it is smallwording. Even if we consider that every apartment in a block you live in is inhabited, it is abnormal behavior for someone to just stand around in a hallway. People don't do that unless they are waiting for someone. 
Necronex666: A poncho outside your door should spook you if you live on Red. If there's someone in your hallway and you don't know who they are you're gonna wanna protect everything in your pad, as well as your own life.
PainFeeler: I live in a pretty big building irl, and if I saw someone sussy standing outside, I'd nope the fuck out of getting out. And my country is far safer than Withmore. 
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Or they're standing in their own hallway smoking a cigarette. If your character wants to be scared, be scared. If your character makes a big thing about how there's a shroud on a densely population street so some shit might be going down, shroudtopia just may visit you.
Pladdicus: But is it reasonable you know your neighbours? Is it reasonable you don't see poncho'd killers in the hall pretty frequently? I think that clarifies it Bubbles, ty.
Necronex666: Honestly, Bubbles, if you live in a low income neighborhood and there's some rando in a hood just hanging around that is cause for alarm. If they don't wanna be seen they can hide.
Pladdicus: Remarking or taking action on something is different from being wary or cautious.
Terrible_the_duck: I've lived in a tower my whole life. I know 1 neighbour six stories above me.
prozorovsky: Another thing to note. People are not necessarily modifying their look place to be descriptive what what they are doing, how they are doing it.
Pladdicus: Sure, but the turnover in Red is pretty high, is all I wanted to note there.
Mikael: If there's a rando with a hood and a cloak outside your door in a high income neighbourhood, its even more unsual lol. Randos outside your door are just unusual in general, especially if you cant see their features.
prozorovsky: X is standing here. But in reality they are standing there watching your door. But they are not describing that. This goes both ways.
Terrible_the_duck: If Tam the bam wants to hang outside my flat smoking a joint and wearing a big hat, sure maybe I wont interact with him, but it won't stop me going ot the shop.
Fay: Admittingly I check the peep hole before going out a lot... My character is designed to find everyone sus, but now that its mentioned... Will look into other ways to do it. I just always assume they are standing right at my door, staring at it lol
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: But the Mix is not just an low income neighborhood. It's a slum packed with like 40 million people in a very condensed area. I think we all, everyone from players to staff, often might struggle just to imagine the true staggering amount of people around.
Staff Logic: There are tens of thousands of ponchos in the city. It isn't uncommon and it isn't just a criminal thing necessarily. It's protection. There are people that never come out from under a poncho in public among the ambpop. Seeing a poncho is as common as seeing a bum on the corner in the mix.
BubbleKangaroo: Location matters. Shrouds might hang out at WH, but if you see one outside your door at XH...
prozorovsky: You don't get to meta your look place and the like and cry foul when someone gets sussed out.
PainFeeler: There might be 40 million people in the area, but there is a 20-50 people at best living in an IC housing block. Unless we are supposed to imagine that the buildings are bigger than they are presented too.
Terrible_the_duck: That's my point. An example of this is anyone who'se ever played Cyberpunk 2077. Look outside V's flat. There are literally 20 people outside their door. Standing around. Doing fuck all but arsing around. Sure if they're staring at your door it's probably an issue, but amb-pop is real and shrouds hanging about outside should just be like any other crowd.
PainFeeler: I think [CROWDED] is a good indicator to when we are supposed to imagine a crowd, and when we aren't.
prozorovsky: I kinda suspect many of the buildings are absolutely bigger than they are represented as. Note how few buildings have bathrooms for instance.
BubbleKangaroo: Exactly, PainFeeler.
Mikael: You probably are, painfeeler, yeah. The crown probably houses thousands of people instead of hundreds.
Mikael: Or tens of thousands. It's a crowded megacity.
eggsaresides: Add a rule where you have to interact with someone for two to five minutes before killing them.
Staff Logic: Another thing about cars btw. Identifying a damage vehicle because you see it park in front of the same building every day. How do we discover that? Are we staring at cameras for hours or standing on the street for hours 'looking for it' among the hundreds of ambpop cars? We aren't. We walk in, look at 1st buggy, 2nd buggy etc, and it's there. We leave. Or whatever. The RP that would go into actually finding that vehicle isn't there because the ambpop is being ignored. And as a result, there is no risk to the person identifying so quickly. How long would you suspiciously search cars on a block before someone came up to you from the pbase or from ambpop?
Necronex666: The bigger issue here is that anything being done to your apartment can be the ultimate game ender for people. A shroud might be out there because it's a NPC or they might intend to walk in there and loot the place. So while I am /usually/ on the opposite end of the argument, with apartment stuff I think extra care is warranted.
PainFeeler: It rarely feels like a crowded megacity. We had population balloon from 40 to 100 million people, but the world kind of did not change at all from it, y'know? 
duck: It's a video game, NPCs stay in place a lot more than they would IRL. I used to live in a student dorm with a lot of people coming and going, but nobody was just hanging out in the hallways for hours.
BubbleKangaroo: You have to smallworld to a degree or you never get anything done or RP, though.
NightHollow: I am really starting to feel validated that I've recently adopted a "don't interact with unless interacted with" mentality when it comes to crowds, vehicles and disguises. A lot of these problems don't exist if we stop trying to validate our curiosity in the moment when the game mechanics are obfuscating things with intent. Unless someone is walking around in plain sight with features you should know and recognize.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I don't think we're against extra care. Someone lingering for a long period of time? I don't think it's unwarranted to have a friend come give you an escort or check it out. Looking out once, seeing someone, deciding some shit is about to go down like immediately and this is unusual? Now we're getting a bit smallwordly.
BubbleKangaroo: Smallworlding isn't JUST negatives.
prozorovsky: Given how crowded the streets are... is it even reasonable that you necessarily see the NPC or PC? What does it mean to see a character?
Pladdicus: Yes, I think that's where I would think your justified to be more paranoid. You check, and then fifteen minutes later you check and they are still there.
Mikael: Memento vehicles again would be amazing, or even for starters, just random messages that appear like  'a buggy comes cruising in from the south before going north' that looks like a vehicle speeding buy, that pops up for people walking around and on cams would do wonders as well.
Pladdicus: And yes, it is totally okay to walk on by a PC. But smallworlding only really gets complaints when you are using it to gain an advantage. It is okay to say hi to a player, if you can somewhat justify it.
Necronex666: That's fair, Bubbles.
Mikael: To start with, if coding actual moving memento vehicles would be too much.
Terrible_the_duck: Read the descriptions of the rooms PainFeeler. It certainly reads crowded, dense and filled with people to me.
prozorovsky: Many pay nearly zero attention to room descriptions and those events that pop up.
Fay: Been playing moos/muds so long, I freely admit, room descriptions I don't really read unless I am looking for something. My eyes go to spesific information.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Talking about cameras is our next subtopic, but we'll give a couple of minutes for anyone to share thoughts about vehicle smallworlding before we move on.
prozorovsky: I have a question: Given the destitute nature of the mix, how common is it actually to own a vehicle? Are the streets filled with walkers? Or are the masses limited to the sidewalk?
Pladdicus: Filled with walkers. But also filled with vehicles. It is dome central, so lots people drive in I think.
Mikael: Shitboxes like buggies would probably be very common, most mix descriptions mention an aero flying above the streets or launching off.
Terrible_the_duck: I tend to believe that the crowds are filled with walkers. People filter in between the traffic. Imagine random bakas walking out infront of you if you're driving.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: It's important to remember that while the common person might not afford a vehicle, there's people who would use them for businesses, services, loaned to them by employers for their jobs, people slumming, etc.
prozorovsky: Honestly I think this may be part of the problem. A lack of description. We are using words like 'I think' 'I believe'. We do not actually know the environment we are inhabiting.
Mikael: I always imagined that people walked on sidewalks and there is a constant stream of cars going through the roads and aeros flying through the air, even in the red light district, because there is traffic in the tubes.
Terrible_the_duck: It's roleplay. We're here to use our imagination. Not be told every single detail.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Before I take us to the next topic, I would give an example of a different vehicle smallworlding.
Staff Logic: I think something like Blade Runner or Altered Carbon. Take a look at what those cities look like.
Staff Logic: In terms of how crowded and the vehicles/walkers.
Terrible_the_duck: Agree with Logic there.
prozorovsky: But we are discussing vehicle small worlding. Those details may be relevant.
PainFeeler: I imagined it something like Vietnam or Bangladesh, where it is a constant stampede of primarily bikes, and people just wading through them because there is no light regulation. Very noisy. 
duck: I still think it's kind of funny that you never get stuck in traffic outside of the tubes.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: As staff for a plot, I used a fairly uncommonly owned vehicle (that would still have plenty owned by ambient population) and blew up some stuff. Despite it having weapons, different plates, different paintjob, different character(s) inside it, people still insisted it must be one PC.
eggsaresides: If it's that crowded in the streets why do vehicles move freely without traffic issues?
BubbleKangaroo: The air is filled with vehicles and drones at all times. Just 'look up'
PainFeeler: Because it is just not coded. I don't really see why Red wouldn't be car-dense.
Mikael: i mean, there can be a constant stream of moving cars without you being stuck in traffic. look at night city gameplay lol.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Now for our next subtopic..
Terrible_the_duck: I'd like to see some traffic for cars even on sectors. I think it's more prevelant in the tubes because the tubes are EXTREMELY compact. What's the desc again, like four lanes of traffic?
svetlana: Please no traffic
Staff Logic: I would guess because traffic sucks enough as it is and Johnny didn't want to make you suffer quite that much. But I can only speculate.
BubbleKangaroo: There's just SO MUCH in the game that doesn't exist that reasonably would. Not everything can be described or mechanical.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: What are some ideas for the playerbase and staff to help ease smallworlding? We have some upcoming changes to cameras we're hoping to put in place to help with the smallworlding that happens there ourselves, but want to hear ideas from you.
Terrible_the_duck: Gimme pain!
PainFeeler: Traffic in sector would be VERY ANNOYING, so I figured it is a big reason why it doesn't exist. 
Bix: traffic for all ground areas everywhere and no sky rooms.
eggsaresides: +1 Bix.
Bix: is the solution.
Mikael: Make bikes experience traffic.,
Terrible_the_duck: Traffic all rooms, even sky rooms. Make barges cross infront of aeros to block their paths.
svetlana: When you notice smallworlding, don't send out a vague OOC shout, but message the offending person directly. I never know if I am doing anything wrong or not, when I hear the vague OOC shouts about smallworlding
Ociex: Make license plate and color, damages and make and model use perception and skills.
BubbleKangaroo: Cameras in CROWDED areas confuse me if you can't actually notice what's going on in them by policy.
Sulfurado: Make driving skill allow you to dodge traffics
Bix: have cameras receive +spam messages.
eggsaresides: Send more corn to cameras...
Mikael: I think the camera system is fine personally, except for being able to smell people through it though you shoudnt roleplay that existing.
Bix: Make all blacks look just black.. unless you have art skills.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We are going to likely implement ambient messaging for npcs and for vehicles on cameras if we're able. We will also likely be not allowing players to install cameras in the Badlands.
NightHollow: I've only ever seen one camera setup before in the game and it was so busy with tourists and ganger traffic that I felt like I needed to ignore it cause it was distracting, it also made me think "Why can I see NPC or player names on this thing?" It should just tell me their shortdesc so I can't just make a hasty conclusion by the data being presented to me. Small world problems like these can be helped with code.
BeforeTheWhispers says, "Int and perception to "notice" poncho and hoodie color in short desc. Make cameras black and white to throw off entering and exiting poncho colors as well."
Mikael: I cant see how it is being used to small world people any more than seeing them in the room itself? even less so since you cant actually 'look' at them.
Fay: On cameras I have a question with a short background. I asked a NPC at a camera station, to tell me if he saw anyone looking like this and that. And I got told there are hundreds of people going in and out. That confused me, as I assumed, they record, have facial recognition software, and the normal camera station equipment. In sindome, even the advanced camera stations... they don't record at all? So are they not just useless? If there are thousands, no human will be able to see, so cameras don't have use in facilities?
Mikael: Cameras dont need further nerfs, please.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Cameras are by no means nerfed. I promise you, from what we witness players doing every day, they are powerful.
Bix: I find the extreme camera systems SO overwhelming already, I cannot be in the room watching them and leave. I cant imagine additional spam.
Mikael: I think thats more of a benefit of having cameras rather than it providing any special ability, it will always be worse than just looking at the room.
duck: Cameras currently translate languages, even if you don't speak them. I bugged that a while ago and it was too complicated to fix back then, but maybe AI has changed that.
prozorovsky: It would be rather annoying. It may further ins- I was just about to mention bikes. I am not certain how to help with small worlding. For certain things you could add some new events talking about crowds or vehicles. More NPC's, NPC drivers, more emotive/active NPC's.
Mikael: People spend hundreds of thousands of chyen to set up a huge camera network just to see shrouds moving across the streets.
Mikael: Potentially invest in cyberware too to help them.
NightHollow: I really do wonder why you can identify people by name on the cameras, it should really filter all people crossing them by shortdesc, I mean even if a camera monitor is present in your room, you wouldn't be staring at it that close at all times to actually identify a person to see their name run across the screen right?
Terrible_the_duck: Yeah no. Cameras are evil. Also where are people getting power sources to put cameras in the baddies...Where are we plugging them in!
duck: Let us notice car colors, though. It makes zero sense to see a car, but you can't tell if it's yellow or pink.
eggsaresides: The identity / disguise system is the issue. Bit names specifically.
Pladdicus: Instead of specific disguises, which can remain. It'd be nice if you could just -become- for all intents and purposes, an NPC character through disguise.
Mikael: cameras arent op at all, the langauge and smell part can certainly be fixed. otherwise they're just doing what they're designed to do- giving you a glance into the room.
Mikael: to nerf them furrther would make them redundant.
Mikael: thats what a camera does. gives you a glance at a room.
NightHollow: They give you more than a glance, they tell me who is walking across a crowded street without needing to LOOK at the person to identify them.
Staff Logic: Speaking of cameras again, it is also not allowed to use someone's describe name to identify them by when viewing them on cams.
svetlana: Pladdicus you can do that with advanced disguise skills
Mikael: They give you less information than actually being physically present on the street.
eggsaresides: You say that, Logic, but how many people actually follow that... logic?
Staff Fengshui2@slack: not going to do that for colors. Not interested in adding more traffic. I will think on ambient vehicles but I think all this just hides the core issue which is that people will always have more ooc knowledge than IC. I feel like disguise meta has not improved despite making it functionally impossible to identify someone, adding appear, name changes, more disguise, disguised NPCs, etc. it's still an issue maybe more? I dunno
BubbleKangaroo: From what I recall, ID'ing someone by cams requires you to be able to describe their features normally?
eggsaresides: Add a recognition system where the game keeps track of whether you recognize someone or not instead of just bit names and shi.
NightHollow: If thats a policy it should be coded, no? That's a bit too much trust in my opinion.
Ameliorative: Does disguise maybe need to go for a bit as a test? I remember this was polled for a bit a while back.
cata: coming in late but i would love to see more avenues to investigate, too. or better clarity on how to investigate without smallworlding. i think forensics as a skill has always been confusing to navigate and a little bare-bones when it'd easily be the #1 skill to investigate/track someone down without smallworlding or making wild leaps in judgement. i can get making it harder mechanically to smallworld or tell but some ways to offer worthwhile rp on the investigator's side would also probably help too!
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We'll have to disagree on the power of cameras. I think you will find most staff feel they are very powerful and have a direct impact on smallworlding. For Fay: there are different types of cameras in game.
Staff Logic: We can't remove those. It's a key part of the game's framework as I understand it.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We could revisit that poll and maybe see how stuff plays out, but no guarantees. I think it's an interesting thought to most of us.
Staff Fengshui2@slack: we can remove cameras. We can remove shrouds. It removes disguise as a skill and a lot of IC jobs and rp and uses of skill for people with tech skills though.
The discussion of 'Smallworlding and The Fallout: It's Getting A Bit Out of Hand.' has been extended for another hour.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We could revisit that poll and maybe see how stuff plays out, but no guarantees. I think it's an interesting thought to most of us.
Fay: Got it, I will just keep asking and not assume none record heh. As for Iding people via cam, I try to only use the name if I met that person, sadly... with the game giving everyone's names automatically, I can't always remember if they ever gave a name, a alias or was I told it. 
Mikael: If cameras were realistic in this game I could monitor them and be able to zoom in to see what someone in my cam looks like, but it's not for the sake of balance and I understand that. Making them worse wouldn't be as fair for the setups certain people have been investing towards for months. But alright, thats just my opinion i the end.
BubbleKangaroo: Yeah. It's why I wonder why cameras are in CROWDED places at all.
svetlana: I like the idea of getting rid of JUSt ponchoes and hoodies as a test. Leave masks and wig/contacts and other advanced disguise items.
Bix: its not just realism though its balance too mikael
eggsaresides: Zooming in on Bix fr.
PainFeeler: The issue with removing hoodies/ponchos is that it will give people even more reason to avoid going anywhere and doing anything, especially for characters that are not combat inclined. 
svetlana: Ugh, true, thats' fair
NightHollow: I am starting to like the idea of cameras even less as we talk about it. We want to protect against small world, we should be encouraging people to go out in the world more to get their data, not sit in a strong hold and wait for that person to cross their screen. More risk, more exposure, more data to be acted on in the "real" world.
Staff Logic: I've been wanting to see forensics get that good love for a while. I think it could be more robust as a skill. Thanks for bringing it up because I'd forgotten in the wash of life. 
Bix: posing for Eggs.
PainFeeler: Disguise is the only real way to defend against a mogger for someone weak. You simply cannot rely on anything else. 
Ameliorative: Stealth?
svetlana: Let's keep ponchoes then.
prozorovsky: Do hoods really do a good job of obfuscating peoples faces in real life? Genuine question.
svetlana: Ugh I wish there were stealth skillsofts.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: The poor baby solos who are never hired for protection have fallen to their knees in a local walmart.
Bix: cameras are definitely op, its almost like an IC pay to win for a city that runs on data and peoples locations.
svetlana: i love hiring baby soloes.
Ociex: The thing is, so be mugged? If someone is farming someone, xhelp with it.
duck: They don't prozorovsky. It's a bit of a general fantasy trope to treat them like they do, though.
Terrible_the_duck: Disguise is horrible. Everyone 'MUST' wear a hood to do anything sneaky. Seriously. I hate disguise and the only reason everyone 'MUST' wear one is because without one everyone targets you for 'not' wearing one.
PainFeeler: I can't really hire a solo each time I need to go take a walk, especially considering that baby solos is usually who I am hiding from. 
eggsaresides: You are failing them, Bubbles. This is all your fault.
Ameliorative: Maybe temporarily disabling hoodies/ponchos as disguise items and blipping cameras is the way to go? The tech stuff kinda sucks but I'm not really sure what else we could do there.
Mikael: Cameras, like anything else in the game, are something anyone can end up leveraging and utilize. It's hard to use them for small worlding imo, much harder than physically being on the street for sure. Some people have been building their networks for months/years and sinking hundreds of thousands of chyen on them. Certain setups can become powerful if big enough, but that's also saying a PC with Xo5 and a top weapon is powerful - yes- the player has invested alot of time and resources into making them powerful.
eggsaresides: I say that as a half joke but you remember how the world used to respond to shitters a few years ago when the three headed mantaur was still around.
prozorovsky: Honestly I would err on disabling the disguising part of hoods/ponchos then. There are other options no? Masks? Wigs? Makeup?
svetlana: Yes yes and yes
Terrible_the_duck: Yes and yes.
Bix: you remove all that you're gonna end up with a lot less people out in the world, not more.
Necronex666: Nobody wants us to go back to the Cerb era of SD, eggs. Kind of a topic derail too. 
PainFeeler: What would that really change, except making ponchos/hoodies useless, and making masks/wigs/makeup the new hoodies?
svetlana: Need high disguise skill to use wigs/makeup for disguise. Masks only cover your face.
NightHollow: The cameras seem to make the world smaller by definition though, Mikael, even if it takes a long time to build up, we should want those high end players in the streets doing their surveillance, no? You might see a lot more interactions with your enemies and allies alike.
cata: maybe just having larger disguise penalties for certain actions. if you're actively slashing someone up and the massive full body poncho you're wearing isn't budging at all without a -good- amount of skill invested in disguise i'd be surprised
eggsaresides: It was vague but not a derail.
Bix: id rather just see hoodies and poncho add heftier penalties to the wearer.
Necronex666: Disguise penalties are already huge, cata.
svetlana nods in Bix's general direction.
Ociex: People are less inclined to react to Random NPC name outside the door, than Shabby hooded super tall brouette with hulking form.
Terrible_the_duck: Plus one Bix.
Ociex: So yeah, wigs eyes and all that makes a huge difference.
Necronex666: Slither already made disguise penalties worse this year, lol.
PainFeeler: They need be bigger, imo. Make disguises something you use when you are scared and weak and struggling to survive. 
prozorovsky: I suppose you could also link the link the disguising feature of to your disguise skill. Have to have some amount to really be actively pulling it down, hunching the right way to obfuscate. I do not know. Ambivalent. I do not have a strong opinion, or an understanding of the good they do or the bad they do.
Terrible_the_duck: Wear wigs, Wear contacts. Not ponchos. Ponchos are weather devices, not disguises.
Mikael: Well, it's not just combat characters. The idea of a super enforcer running up and down a street for hours to find someone is one thing, sometimes cameras are leveraged by techie/support roles for callouts and they already do not have as much capability of combat characters. By nerfing them you are also removing another utility they might have.
prozorovsky: of hoodies/ponchos to your disguise skill rather. Typing too fast.
cata: really? i've always felt like at least in combat that stuff sticks on heavy, but i might also just be coming to blows with some really well disguised people.
duck: I would like contacts and wigs to last a bit longer/have a few more uses if ponchos and hoodies are removed. They're kind of pricey.
NightHollow: I think that's what felibots are supposed to be for though. That at least puts an asset at risk for them to provide support.
svetlana nods in NightHollow's general direction.
Necronex666: Characters sitting around staring at eighty camera feeds has been called out basically forever. But there are now more ways to mess with cameras than ever. You can make it very hard for someone to utilize their network at a budget.
BubbleKangaroo: Felibots are great surveillance devices - particularly because they can be interacted with.
duck: I still haven't found a way to fuck with a felibot. Can you even attack them?
svetlana: yes
cata: you most certainly can lol
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I have watched PCs smallworld a single vehicle driving through the Mix from one side to the other through a camera network. It was a common model vehicle and wasn't acting outrageous. I have watched PCs smallworld a single color shroud moving from one side to the Mix trough the next. Cameras are incredibly powerful and often fall into people smallworlding with them.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I don't think anyone is hurt at all by adding ambient movement messages to help cushion that tendency.
Mikael: I think people should be able to have powerful things if they work hard and pump alot of money, resources and time into the game world for it, generally speaking. Techies need to be hired for more work, not less. There are also ways to better handle/ignore camera systems as Necronex stated. Also, it's very easy for high powered characters to avoid cameras to the point it becomes extremely difficult to catch them with it and rare.
Mikael: If it causes small worlding, thats a seperate issue. But I dont think the issue is nerfing cameras as it is more of a player culture issue and should be more to do with things for the game world rather than nerfing systems.
prozorovsky: Perhaps your ability to notice unsteathled characters in crowded areas should be tied to stats/skills? Do you have the perception to actually keep track of that Joe Baka?
BubbleKangaroo: All this to say: I think being able to ID people you've seen before on camera networks should be fine. It's the fact it's supposed to be smallworlding and not identifiable that makes me question why even have cameras.
NightHollow: I think it's pretty much a connected issue though, the cameras legitimately and directly make the world much smaller for the person in front of their monitor.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Adding messages it not a nerf. A nerf would be my original suggestion that we account for power supply issues in some part of the city and have cameras turn off at random from power loss.
Necronex666: You can avoid all cameras with almost no skill or chy investment, and that's probably something that should be changed codedly, but I don't think staff perceived it as being an issue. Vehicles are harder especially if you drive the one Mono in the Mix or something.
Fay: Cameras work fine in my opinion. Also adds a bit of suspence. Is someone watching that cam, where I need to blow something up. And if so, who the fuck owns it.
cata: please no. it's hard enough to interact with other characters in public spaces with the perception requirement for listening/hearing characters
eggsaresides: Good idea, Bubbles. Like SIC.
Necronex666: The vehicle smallworlding has actually contributed in a major way to everyone having the same shade of buggy.
cata: i'd rather not make it more difficult to see someone unstealthed. despite ambpop existing i do think people seeing one another interacting in public areas is good for the game
svetlana nods in cata's general direction.
Mikael: I do think adding random messages of a vehicle driving by is an absolutely amazing idea, yes. But that should be added to the general game world, not just for cameras.
Ameliorative: New suggestion re cameras: what if they didn't show bit names, but instead ONLY shortdescs? And there was a chance for them (based on crowd conditions et al) to randomly reassign parts of someone's shortdesc on the view? So a petite person on cameras in a crowded area might appear average instead, etc.
NightHollow: Rolling power outages in Red makes a ton of sense for camera networks.
prozorovsky: Ah you may be misunderstanding me Cata. I am specifically talking about cameras. Not your character in person.
Terrible_the_duck: Exactly Necronex. Being told You 'cant' do something unless you have 'this' shade of buggy because everyone will gank you for not having the same colour as everyone elses buggy.
NightHollow: I did suggest that Ameliorative, but I think someone said that's not how the code can work or something? Not sure I understood fully though.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I don't know if it's possible to make that distinction with camera feeds alone, Ameliorative. But I'll write it down for discussion.
Necronex666: I don't like rolling power outages for cameras, but it'd be great if deckers could have greater effect on them - without going into detail. 
Brungus: It's a problem with every vehicle yeah and it's a shame, there's so many cool colours you can make vehicles in the game, but you're wholly discouraged to use any but the most generic since people will 100% smallworld them 
cata: hm. that could be the case, but i think it's overwhelmingly impact lower-ue characters when typically the people we see with well build cam feeds & networks are more established ones, so i don't know if i love that idea either. plus one to deckers being able to fuck with cameras more though, i think it's better to give people more chances to actively sabotage than a straight up nerf
Mikael: I think deckers being able to manipulate electronics is a good idea too, even networks.
Ameliorative: More stuff for deckers to do with cameras would be great.
Mikael: You know what would be cool and even help against small worlding? Letting deckers be able to feed fake shit into cams, like a fake person being there that isnt actually there. That would be an amazing way to 1. Lure someone, 2. hire deckers for work.
prozorovsky: I think power outages are fine... assuming we think that is something Red actually has rolling black/brown outs. I would not want them to be limited to cameras though. That does not make much sense.
svetlana: There were power outages/blackouts a year or two ago in Red for IC reasons, it was fun to RP.
Fay: Well shit, I always assumed deckers could lol. Piggyback the feed, shut it down, mirror a recorded feed on it, things like that lol
eggsaresides: Electric and water bills added to the Hall terminal.
cata: maybe high forensics characters also have a better eye for mathing out disguises/can pick up secret 'tells' from disguised characters, or give deckers more ways to screw with camera networks (or elec techs. think elec tech also might appreciate some more love)
prozorovsky: I do think it would make for fun RP. Red already has sic outages. Withmore is an extremely overpopulated, dense place. I do not find the idea that Red is not prioritized for power very strange. But it should do more than turn your cameras off.
Mikael: If that does happen, you should be able to buy a power generator or an energy conservor like an SIC amp imo.
prozorovsky: In fact I think the idea that Withmore is a city being pushed beyond its limits essentially true?
Mikael: That stops things from turning off in a room.
svetlana: Sounds like a good idea for an ideas forum
Terrible_the_duck: I like the idea of power outages.
prozorovsky: Could become something deckers can interact with as well, or perhaps people with electrotech or something.
cata: maybe even an expensive craft
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We will move on to the next subtopic in a few minutes, so please continue to get those suggestions out on ideas for helping combat smallworlding while you can.
prozorovsky: Ya, buy or make a gosh darn generator Joe Baka. Brokey.
eggsaresides: Even more outrageous idea would be to remove cameras and disguises and rely on people for data.
Mikael: Bruh.
whatislove: Thatt's not Bruh, that's eggs.
Bix: someone smother eggs.
Fay: Could add facial recognition. For example takes 20 seconds to ID you, and then you can ICly use the name or full description from the cam. Without the ID, you just saw someone.
eggsaresides: Only network you can rely on now is the friends you make a long the way. I'm completely serious too.
Mikael: That doesnt feel very cyberpunky too me tho, you should have survelliance systems.
Pladdicus: Get rid of all vehicle echoes in crowded spaces except for entering and exiting, and if you own it.
prozorovsky: Why not let people... Destroy cameras?
whatislove: I couldn't help myself sorry. But in seriousness, removing cameras would be an odd balance change that removes a big avenue for some characters both roleplay and business wise
whatislove: now entirely destroying cameras, that is something to think about maybe
Necronex666: Cameras can be removed with the right skill set. Destroying them just takes away someone's investment forever.
Fay: or damaging them to broken, and you need to go out and get it repaired
prozorovsky: Why can't Joe Baka light that thing up? Why is it so difficult to unscrew the thing?
Mikael: Removing cameras from the game reminds me of that one post that suggested removing topside roles from the game just to encourage more RP.
Mikael: It's only considering one side.
whatislove: then make it into a consideration that can involve both sides. the idea of breaking a camera and having someone forced to go fix it is in line with some things you can do already
Necronex666: You can also use spraypaint to deface cameras. 
PainFeeler: Can't you already paint them over, which is essentially the same thing as breaking them?
cata: yeah you can paint them over and then need someone with a specific skill to clean them
prozorovsky: Why should they be uniquely nearly invincible? Our vehicles are not are they? Our clothes are not.
whatislove: ok. now what if we can damage them and somebody can repair them?
eggsaresides: Sidenote, you can smother me Bix but when the cameras are removed.
Staff Logic: I like the ID option. One of the ways I try to curb my desire to immediately identify someone on cams is to differentiate walking by from standing in place or having a conversation in public under big brother's eye.
Mikael: It would just be the same thing with a different item.
BubbleKangaroo: Vehicles are only vulnerable when occupied.
Staff Logic: It makes more sense that you can identify someone in a crowd if they linger a while etc.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We have had some discussions on cameras as a whole and to make them more interactive than put up forever and just deal with the occasional spraypaint. But that's a different topic. For our next subtopic, and possibly last..
Jengris: I -really- wish we could shoot cameras.
prozorovsky: And I have seen a common complaint they are/can be extremely difficult to remove. To the point of it illogical. How many cameras are about that have been installed by some extremely skilled many ears ago and they are just there?
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Subtopic: From my personal experience, I've found a lot of smallworlding tends to happen to try to win or if you lose, to make sure whoever 'beat' you can be found. How can we balance competitive spirit with also doing our best to make a better roleplaying experience for everyone?
Fay: could even add it to vehicles, stands long enough and the identifier pulls a numberplate, now you have a mechanic to say you are allowed to use it.
svetlana: encourage more interesting ways of doing conflict beyond just vatting people
whatislove: im not joking when i say, pump a ton of money into people who actively encourage competitive conduct that isn't only murder or defacing property
Ociex: Try and find new people to do scooping, snooping, and finding. Spread it out, gather as much as possible.
svetlana: More NPC/GM support of people who run interesting story-focused plots
svetlana: reward what you want to encourage
BeforeTheWhispers says, "That part. ^"
Mikael: I think...there should be clear expectations for when we can assume someone might be X person behind a shroud or hood. It has been difficult me at times to balance competition and hyper-realism though I am leaning more towards the latter, sometimes mixed messages are sent on what is acceptable.
Mikael: If you go to 'help disguise', under the section 'YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW'. It says 'Other characters are under no obligation to believe your character is someone different than who they assume they are.' This is kind of inverse to that whole thing about not going after hooded people with a certain color of armor because you dont have 100% ic proof its them.
Fay: No comment on this topic from me. Big story fan and my drive to win is near non existant. 
Mikael: So, how do we seperate when it's fine to assume/attack someone we physically see on our screens who is behind a hoodie/poncho and when is it just being meta?
cata: i personally think that as much as smallworlding does suck sometimes investigation and whodunnits in this game can be a little miserable without a tiny bit of it. empowering people to investigate more thoroughly and assisting in that rp can help people come to the conclusion they're looking for without snapping their fingers and going 'this is joebaka!'. this can range from improving and expanding upon skills related to investigation (...forensics), to npcs engaging with people who are actively investigating a crime and helping to provide eyewitness evidence or pointing them in the direction of another pc cryptically, etc
prozorovsky: Allowing camera repairs would give Elecrotechs more to do. Cameras could be made cheaper to replace, consist of parts etc.
svetlana: I crave any GM attention, negative or positive, because it means that what I'm doing is having an impact on the world. Give more GM attention to people whose plotlines you want to encourage.
Terrible_the_duck: No comment here. Please. PLEASE. PLEASEEE make a good story with me. I couldn't care less what i win or lose. Just GIVE ME A STORY to work with!
eggsaresides: I think a proper identity / recognition system would help a lot with that, Mikael. Instead of having to guess whether you can reasonably recognize someone, the game just gives you indicators that you do.
prozorovsky: Anyway I do not know. Babbling ideas for thought. I do not understand cameras well.
Mikael: Thats not a bad idea, eggs. I know alot of other muds use that.
Mikael: I quite like the simplicity of it being straight up char names you can target though.
eggsaresides: Yeah, those systems typically support those as well.
duck: You used to be able to look at a person on a camera/television, but this stopped working years ago.
NightHollow: They usually have the ability to set the person's name based on your knowledge of them.
Necronex666: A while back Slither said that it's impossible to change how characters are recognized codedly because it'd have needed to be done at the aforementioned code's foundation. I'm not sure if that's changed.
Fay: a introduction/dub system works in many muds, but its also true, that attacking the wrong people by accident and being slower on target is a thing
prozorovsky: I struggle a lot with knowing who my character actually knows/recongnizes. OOCLY I know, but I do not know if my character does. I side with caution and assume they forgot.
duck: I was too new to be confident enough to file a bug report back then.
BubbleKangaroo: The CS system of recognition is interesting, but a bit arcane to me.
eggsaresides: Slither is also leveraging a lot of AI these days. So I think anything is possible as long as it is tested thoroughly.
Necronex666: Hence me not being sure if that's changed. 
Fay: but yea that is my main issue as well, I can never remember who gave there names to me, so I have by accident assumed my character knows cause I THINK we met once.
PainFeeler: In my experience, losing doesn't mean that there is a good story to tell from it, only that you get ground into the dirt with very faint ideas as to why and how come. If you aren't already strong and don't have any means to hit back, you just keep eating shit over and over, so you inevitably find yourself reaching for meta advantages such as smallowrding. Bleed and all, I know, but the power disbalance is still there and is often painfully frustrating.  
Mikael: So i'm sometimes conflicted wondering if it's more on the shrouds/hooded person's end to completely convince me its not them as 'help disguise' states, or if it would be reasonable for me to attack when i feel as though it might be. I have given many opportunities for people I oocly have a hunch might be my target for the sake of IC realism and that should be encourage, but that help file states the onus is on people to disguise better and I wonder what the staff thinks about that? Can I assume someone is X person because they wear the same colored armor and hoodie and attack them for it?
Jengris: I just assume my character is a fuckin space cadet half the time if I am not sure.
Staff Logic: It hasn't changed at this time, to my knowledge. 
svetlana: you can also pay someone to take a picture of a PC and tell you what their name is
prozorovsky: Another idea for cameras: have several models. The more expensive ones do a better job at certain things, like dealing with crowds.
Jengris: THAT.
Mikael: I can get behind that, prozorovsky. We have tiers for everything else, why not?
prozorovsky: You bought the cheapest camera possible Joe Baka, congratulations it is fuzzy as shit. Maybe no audio either.
whatislove: I think Pain hits a fair point, in that even if losses could lead to a good story, sometimes everything just falls flat on the fall down and the meat of it just isn't adequate. Not saying there aren't losses that don't lead to a great story experience, but if it happens often subconsciously you just want to find ways to get in on the rise somehow.
PainFeeler: I wonder if weapons being customize-able would help with smallwording. Paint your guns to make them more distinct, and by that, make it appear as if it is different people making the hit, etc. 
whatislove: And I don't even think there is a good way to soften that leek, even if in the long run past a break.
cata: oh i would love multiple models of cameras. especially if cheaper/junkier ones can be sourced a little more easily, or maybe are sold somewhere that's a bit more dangerous to get to but doesn't require a license
Fay: yea you lose your gear, you worked for for 6 months, great story led to the loss, and sure creates a good story, memory and event... But the loss hurts, though you can't mitigate that. Follow the basic rule in PVP muds, get killed, log off for a few hours, rest the emotion, then look at the story created.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: For the identity of disguises, I would lean more towards the help smallworlding file and how to approach it. Help disguise has its purposes and there's a number of ways to improve your disguise to in theory help you against being smallworded. Unfortunately, smallworlding has risen so much and has caused so much tension that we are having this talk and will be having some personal talks to address it.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: We will be wrapping up soon because there's an IC event in awhile and I want to give people time between this talk and that to go take care of stuff they want to do and without running over into that event.
Staff Logic: The help file for disguise is that way because we can't arbitrate and investigate every meta or smallworld report. Staff used to do this before my time and actively policed it. They didn't have the manpower to keep doing it then and we certainly don't have it now. The file is written that because, yes, the onus these days is on the shroud to adequately hide their identity. Still, that doesn't mean we want players on the identifying side to play as if someone's shoes are so identifiable that no one else is wearing them in the entire city. Or deciding that someone wielding a certain kind of weapon automatically makes them x person under the poncho. We don't have the time or hands to police these things daily so we instead have discussions like this to address it for everyone.
svetlana: thanks again for taking the time to have this discussion. it was helpful for me.
Sulfurado: give svet the money for her plotz plz
Terrible_the_duck has left the channel.
Fay: same, I thought I would just hear a lot of bitching, but pleasantly surprised, learned quite a bit, thanks.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I would like to leave several people with this parting thought though.
Jengris: Some of this discussion has me wondering if I havent accidentally been a part of the problem. Lots to think on.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Smallworlding isn't fun to experience. I completely empathize. And I understand the frustration builds when you think it's happening to you and you report it over xhelp or notes. I don't have any problems with that at all. But.
Staff Logic: I think on some level, all of us have done some form of small worlding here and there. The goal of these discussions isn't to target anyone, but rather to come together as a curia to be better together. 
Brungus: Definitely has me thinking on it more, and I've learned some ways to be more mindful about it for sure.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: I encourage everyone to also look at how they interact with the world and how they might play into smallworlding too. We have a lot of people recently who report smallworlding, but who also get reported for smallworlding. There is a lot of smallworlding happening as conflict rises. Take time to think about how you might respond to what's playing out and how you might look at or address a situation with a wider net.
cata: ultimately gm support would be amazing, but i realize that staff aren't really available as often as i sometimes wish they were to run plots actively like that. i agree with maybe providing resources through npcs for players to run non vatting-related (or just generally more public) plots that can lead to fun investigations if possible! i know that an npc just directly saying 'i want you to do this for me' is encouragement enough sometimes to get a ball rolling
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Vehicle moving across your camera feeds or a room, vehicle landing on roof, calias to check if an alias is hopping, person in a hoodie of a specific color and nothing else to go on, vehicle that's a shade of one kind of paint, weapon type, rumors being spread, etc. There's so much room for all of us to improve. And sometimes we contribute to smallworlding without realizing we do.
Fay: I will be sure to try harder to recognise this issue. I learned of the term very recently, but have something to gauge my own patterns on now.
svetlana: Thank you for giving us the space to learn and grow
Bix: YEah I will be more conscious too, the discussions been useful to recognize my own contributions to this.
Mikael: I agree bubbles, everyone could take some time to reflect on how they might be contributing to it.
Staff #1 Tyrant Bubbles: Thank you all for being so receptive and understanding. We will talk about some of your suggestions for helping limit smallworlding from a coded or policy standpoint. You all are free to continue the discussion until it runs out at the top of the hour here. Or in xooc if you want.
Mikael: Memento Vehicles would be the biggest thing to help combat vehicle smallworlding, if at all codedly possible. especially ones which mimic vehicles that already exist.
Bix is sad.
Mikael: make them exist/ park in different places and drive around.
Burgerwolf: I for one am going to start big worlding.
Fay: I have nothing to add, but much to contemplate. I only have a few years of Sindome experience, a returning player for the last year. And the changes is staggering. Thanks for the fun times, and hope there are more. Where the story is the memory we share and not the hatred for IC direction, or OOC grievences. Have a good one folks.