perhaps?
I mean, people have to have figured it out, the shrouds have been in game for weeks now.
Johnny only tells half the story: I'm an agent. I code. I like to code, and that's about all I -want- to do.
All the 'big coders' before me were Justices. They had other responsibilities and goals of granduer, and didn't have to worry about things like permissions. They're permissions were as high as they get.
I on the other hand don't WANT to be a justice, have no interest in being a justice, and hope I am never made a justice because it is sure to take me away from what I enjoy and do best: code.
So I'm in the position of having to touch some very old and sensitive code, without the ability to fix permissions if I accidently mess them us, as I sometimes have to do in order to make the changes. Instead I gotta go to Johnny and have him do it. This happens about 3-10 times a day when I'm coding, and is a human and error prone process which is easy to mess up without even knowing it, because things will appear to work fine for me.
So sorry for messing up shrouds. I am only human, and an agent.
-Kevlar
Quote: from Kevlar on 12:25 pm on Mar. 4, 2003[br]Johnny only tells half the story: I'm an agent. I code. I like to code, and that's about all I -want- to do.
But that dosn't change the fact that I'm an Agent first and a GM second. My primary responsibility is to code, and if I had it my way it'd be my only responsibility.
There's a good chance I'll quit if they ever try and make me a Justice…
-Kevlar
Ahh well. I guess I'll never learn.
-Kevlar
It's that I get a lot more out of coding. It enhances the game for more than a few people and has a much more lasting result than any plot which I have concieved to date. It's the vital -other half- of GM'ing that only Johnny and I are presently willing/able/allowed to do at this time. Were someone who met the qualifications voulenteering, we'de be asking for their help. But as it is, we're it.
As Head GM my coding time is very limited. Ultimately this is not the most benificial way for me to work. But when I stop GM'ing to code and there's noone else around, everyone starts screaming for GM's.
Fortunately I have some very competent help, when their real lives are not preventing them from getting their groove on here. And when one of their lives slows down enough to spend some time on here, they can have it. Good luck too!
-Kevlar
(Edited by Kevlar at 1:17 am on April 12, 2003)
The very essence of the game world you play in is built from the ideas and imaginations of people who have contributed over the years. The people, places, groups, NPC's, objects, myths and lore that form the Sindome reality have been built up through a process that most definately falls under the job description of the GM role. Back when most of what Sindome is today wasn't even a concept, people filling the GM role were putting the first ideas into place, many of which are still solidly ingrained as the rock solid foundations of the SD world as it stands now. Since then, GM run plots, GM created concepts and the contributions of several generations of players have left their mark on the game, long dead players have left their mark, long forgotten plots have changed the reality for ever.
Sindome, Withmore and all that they encompass could quite feasibly exist without code. The code would be somewhat empty and devoid of inspiration without them (or some other "GM" created reality). While it'd be an extremely undesirable situation, I firmly believe Sindome could continue to exist without further code development, not to mention continue to evolve at the hands of good GM's. The reverse of which I very much doubt could be true.
Of course, all this is too black and white. Every admin should have his creative, GM-like, responsibilities to the MOO and the entire team should be have the opportunity to comment on and discuss evolutions of the code. I never supported the idea that "GMs" and "coders" should be two mutually exclusive groups, but hey, what do I know about "team" work? Hmmm.
Addendum: Infact, you said it yourself, when you step away from GMing to work on some code, people are shouting for GM's, preventing you from coding. Just because you'd rather be coding, don't downplay the importance of GM's and plots.
(Edited by TAFKAR at 12:32 pm on April 12, 2003)
"enhances the game for more than a few people and has a much more lasting result than any plot" is absolute poppycock.
Oh yeah? So Super Happy Fun Land didn't enhance the game for more people than a really intricate plot involving half the playerbase? Seems like a no brainer to me: The Plot will end, but everyone can still play Super Happy Fun Land for generations to come.
Then you said, "The people, places, groups, NPC's, objects, myths and lore that form the Sindome reality have been built up through a process that most definately falls under the job description of the GM role."
All the ~really~ memorable people were PC's. Not NPC's. The myths and lore are mostly attributable to the PC's again for continuing them, even if a GM may have started it. And while some of that may be true, the game does not consist of 'people, places, groups, NPC's, objects, myth, and lore' alone. There's a lot more than that to it.
And THEN you said: "Since then, GM run plots, GM created concepts and the contributions of several generations of players have left their mark on the game, long dead players have left their mark, long forgotten plots have changed the reality for ever."
Can I see a show of hands for how many people here remember a GM run plot from a year ago which is visibly affecting the world today? How about a show of hands of code that's still affecting you? Yeah, players and plots leave their mark, but code does it A LOT better and easier. If someone goes on the biggest PC killing spree in history, in a year people won't still mention their names every day. But if you code a NPC who can drive a car, people will still use him to cruise around in a year. Very very very few people remember Kro, but everyone is intimately familiar with Combat. Code is much more visible, requires less effort, and is potentially called upon and used every day. "GM run plots" fall under none of thoes categories. They require a fair bit of effort, have a much higher degree of failure (due to forces outside the GM's control), and are limited in who they can involve (again due to forces outside the GM's control). To simply say that "GM created concepts" have left their mark is a terribly broad statement. EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING has left it's mark. Some for the better, some for the worse. Long dead players and plots have changed reality forever, but SO HAS CODE!
You see, your real mistake was in taking my words to mean, "GM'ing dosn't enhance the game", which isn't what I said at all.
But this was the kicker: "Sindome, Withmore and all that they encompass could quite feasibly exist without code. The code would be somewhat empty and devoid of inspiration without them (or some other "GM" created reality). While it'd be an extremely undesirable situation, I firmly believe Sindome could continue to exist without further code development, not to mention continue to evolve at the hands of good GM's. The reverse of which I very much doubt could be true."
Continue to exist, sure. But continue to evolve… The MOO HAS EVOLVED GREATLY in the absence of GM's. It has undergone radical changes which have vastly enhanced the experience in the complete and utter absence of GM's. Anyone can set up a minimal DB, make a couple hundred rooms, and let people run wild in it. What sets us apart from other code bases is the complexity and attention to detail that exists. To say that Babble-On, Cars with drivers, the NPC response framework, Ditto-Tek and mementos, and all the other recent code enhancements has not been an evolution is very silly. All of these happened without GM's. Some of these things are even -revolutionary-.
What Johnny and I have seen time and time again is the code AND the playerbase has evolved to the point where it DOES run itself in the absence of GM's. Some people feel the loss, but for the most part, it's a completely autonomous system which requires no outside attention whatsoever to continue to exist. This is true, not in spite of the code, but -BECAUSE- the code finally supports it.
And finally you really mis-construed my words and said: "Just because you'd rather be coding, don't downplay the importance of GM's and plots."
I explicitly said that coding is "the vital -other half- of GM'ing", so I don't know where you got that. All I said was "Ultimately this is not the most benificial way for me to work." Never said it's "Not as important as GM'ing."
GM'ing and coding both serve the same purpose: to enhance the game. And they are both absolutely required to evolve the game at the best possible rate. But the game HAS and WILL evolve in the absence of one or the other.
My simple point has remained throughout, and if you refer back to my orinigal post I think you'll see this: It's not how I'de rather spend my time. I -personally- contribute to the game better through coding.
Now, why you insist on reading into that "coding is more important than GM'ing" and going off on a raving rant about it, I don't know, but I'll reiterate my thesis again: "[Coding] enhances the game for more than a few people and has a much more lasting result than any plot which I have concieved to date."
This is a provablly true statement; No plot I've ever seen executed by anyone has enhanced as many people's experience as some of the more simplistic pieces of code has. Why you insist on brodening the term 'plot' to mean 'creation, building, and evolution of the MOO, and anything else a GM does' I may never know.
-Kevlar
Nevertheless, I don't care how amazing you make NPC's, unless you achieve something akin to a sentient AI it's not going to come close to a good GM or what one can contribute. Infact, I'd go so far to say that instead of improving NPC's, efforts could be placed elsewhere with the aim to minimalising the need to have them at all. (personal opinion, I'll flag these so you don't need to get your knickers so knotted up about them)
Hrm… can't be bothered to pick that entire post apart in quite so much detail as you did, but I'll snack at it...
Your argument about myths and lore being attributed to the players seems a little wonky to me, with all due respect to the players who do carry these things on. That's kinda like saying the people who invent something deserve no credit, it's the people who use it who should get all the credit... I could just as easily apply that argument to code. Doesn't matter who codes what, the fact that it hasn't been replaced, removed or upgraded is a credit to the players for using it... Crazy talk.
As for the show of hands from players who remember a plot from last year, etc, etc. Again, somewhat irrelevant, just because people today, many of whom are newer players, don't remember it, doesn't mean it didn't happen and doesn't mean the roleplay that happened hasn't had a cascading effect onto events in the game world today. Again, you're kinda saying history doesn't matter if no-one remembers it... you're not French are you? ;)
Nice of you to point out how few people remember Kro, very sweet and personal of you, hope you polished that boot before you stuck it in, I do so dislike nasty muddy footprints on my gut ;) But since you bring it up, Kro's Kar Kare, admin/GM created and part of the lore of SD. Aaaaand before you have a nice little dig, I wasn't the admin who created it, it was created months before I became admin after a discussion about who Kro was and what he did (back in the days before histories and all that fun stuff). I didn't choose where it was built, what it involved or how it was created. I thank the admin who did for that personal touch that probably led me to stay with SD instead of passing it over as just another MOO in the herd.
See, I don't doubt you've done amazing and revolutionary things with the code, but where are the players? Maybe I'm wrong, but the measure of a M*'s success (talking specifically RP enforced here) is the number of players on it, and frankly, SD's player count has long since plateaud (substantiated opinion) and is a very long way off rising in relation to the admin effort being poured into it (opinion). The player base peaked when there was a large and active GM base, to a point where it consistently matched or beat CS (convenient measuring post) at peak times for a good couple of months. Now, for all CS has it's problems, they trounce SD on the player count -despite- the fact SD is commercially advertised at financial expense.
Simply put, Withmore and associated fictional reality could exist without code, free-form RP, pen and paper RP, chat room RP, LRP, movie, book, comic, cartoon, etc, etc, etc. Code/MOO/whatever falls into those categories, a tool by which to substantiate the fictional reality. What they all require is a writer or creator, which in the instance of SD, is a GM.
Now, I understand your difference in opinion because it's a difference of opinion I shared with Johnny, albeit quite happily. You're a coder who RP's, I'm an RPer who (to a limited extent) coded. Now, I just know you're going to take that as a diss on your RP credentials and come back at me with some rant about how long you've been RPing, blah, blah, but hear me out. You've committed a fair portion of your working life to coding, you know coding well, you probably studied it to some extent and it's become your career. By comparison, while I don't have a writing career, it's what I like to think I'm pretty good at, creating worlds and putting images into peoples minds. Inspiring them. You inspire people with your code, I manage to inspire people (or so I'm told) with my writing. Doesn't make either of us better or anything, I wish to hell I had your coding knowledge, but it'd probably come at the expense of the reason I want it, which is to use as a tool to further touch peoples imaginations with a fictional world. Subtely different motivations. Even the way you take pride over your code, giving the systems fancy names and announcing their progress or completion. The way you listed them with obvious pride in your previous post, they're your achievements for Sindome. Be damned sure I was proud of what little code I did, but I was far more proud of the reality they delivered and their ability to deliver it as vividly as possible given the medium.
Your opinion, my opinion. Who's right? Is anyone really right. I'm definately not brave enough to claim that in a show of hands the majority of the players would support my view, but as a matter of interest I think it'd make a good poll when the Neuromancer one is done.
What is more important to you on SD? GM run plots or code. Could always add a few more options in their to flavour it. OOC community, Killing things, etc
I believe in the abstract that is "the game". You believe in the definable controllable factors that are the game.
Mind over matter. I don't mind and you don't matter. ;)
JOKE! Knotty-knickers.
We are faced with different problems than the ones that existed in the past, and we've had to adapt to thoes problems.
For instance: We have a VERY competent GM base. Unfortunately events conspire to make them all unavalible at the same time for extended periods of time. Our solution to this is to write code to make the GM's job even easier so they can make more efficent use of the limited time avalible. This also makes our own jobs as coders a lot easier. But to continue to ask the GM's to live in the virtual stone age forever is terribly frustrating to everyone involved. The GM's could not do what they have done without the code that's in place to support them. Period.
A lot can be accomplished without code. But a lot more has been accomplished with it.
This, by the way, is the reason Babble-On, Mementos, and the NPC response framework exist; Not to replace the GM's, but to enable them. And so far, that's exactly what it's done.
And no, I don't consider number of players to be a measure of success. I prefer it with less than 30 on. It's much more manageable. And that's about where it's at. Under 30 people logging in at the same time. If we didn't turn away so many people we'de have the same numbers. Quality over quanity. Style over substance.
-Kevlar
(Edited by Kevlar at 6:21 pm on April 12, 2003)
I can only agree about the competent GM team, as has always been true. It's a tough job and a somewhat thankless task most of the time. It's always unfortunate to have inactive admin in times of need, whatever the cause, and I'm sure they'd not be inactive without good reason.
In the mean time, coded tools to further enable the available staff are quite invaluable, I never said this wasn't the case. They are, undeniably, invaluable tools for priceless GM's and not vice versa (opinion).
I stand by my opinion that a good GM is worth far more than a good coder... and somehow, I suddenly realise in typing that, that it will be read as some comparison between myself and Kevlar... pfft... *ponders deleting to reword*. Nah. Please don't read it as that, the thought honestly hadn't crossed my mind until I re-read it... Meh, of my train of thought now.
Moving on...
How many players are turned away, roughly? I'm no stranger to the fact that players are turned away in order to maintain a certain standard of RP, that's nothing new to SD at all. I do, however, disagree with the idea that maintaining a player count of less than 30 as being an ideal. Somewhere along the line SD tightened it's already firm grip on RP standardisation, choking out players who didn't conform to admin ideals. The concept isn't a bad one, but taken to extremes this can only harm the diversity of ideas and RP within the game. Which is more fun, logging in unsure of who you might meet and what may come of your interaction with them, or logging in knowing the chances are you'll meet up with the same few people you meet every night? Style over substance is a typically great CP-ish quote, but what of the diversity that makes so many examples of the CP genre so rich, exciting and colourful? Complex webs of interaction, conflicts within conflicts within conflicts ad infinitum. With such a small player base it's very easy for one player to rise to the top, leaving it to the admin to knock them down, which in turn is perceived as negative intervention by the admin on the players involved...
Is it really a case of quality over quantity, or is it just easier to maintain absolute control over a smaller player base? Sindome (as a group IC entity) is (was?) a society, and half the fun was watching it evolve and grow, throwing in stimuli and watching it respond. Watching, in a sense, it's ability not just to self perpetuate, but to expand. But you call it "manageable", suggesting the requirement for control. Perhaps that's why you consider the mantle of head GM to be a challenge, perhaps, like King Canute, you're trying to command the sea instead of sailing with it. The only problem is, instead of a sea, you're ending up with a garden pond.
On a final note, I do need to make an apology. My initial post was made under the (mis?)informed belief that you had taken the GM mantle by choice and considered it an achievement, not that you'd taken it as a temporary caretaker role.
For this, I blame Bishop.
A player base of less than 30 active at one time on average. The player count is much much higher than that.
As for the ratio of people turned away we don't have hard and fast numbers. We accualy go out of the way to make a barrier to entry, starting with the registration process so that only thoes with good reading skill and VERY good attention to detail are able to register. This is very much in contrast to just about anywhere else you go where they make a point of making it very clear how to make a charcater.
And it's not my choice or my policy as Head GM to do this. It's been the policy since I arrived. It's not that I have trouble controlling them, it's that with GM's cronically absent, people are getting neglected as it is. With more people, I fear that it would just be more people neglected. Perhaps the reality would be that there's more player driver RP so it would be a good thing anyway.
Regardless of the case, we don't limit based on size anyway. We limit based on quality. It's an elitist community like that. Again: Not my policy. I just support it.
-Kevlar
Erh...sorry, been listening to too much power metal lately.
*ahem*
NPC automation can be pretty darn handy for redundant tasks, especially for those of us character types who need to ask NPCs to perform routine tasks on a regular basis. I can think of more than one frustrating moment when I so wished someone had time to play Ops at a key point, for something very simple. Coding has a noticeable, although slightly low-key effect on the evolution of the game. It's cumulative, however. The small bit of code that does wonders behind the scenes won't affect players all that much right now, but in six months, it could change the face of SD, at least from what I'm seeing looking from late 2k1, when I started playing, till now. The entire dynamic has changed.
But, GM plots can and DO have lasting impact. On players, mind you, but on the world also. A handful of GM-initiated events which seemed to be of negligible effect at the time are the very -reason- my character is a Judge now and stays a Judge. And, not to flatter myself, but when I get around to investigating something, it does have an impact on how the game plays out for a number of people. Again, they were glitzy, visceral, spontaneous bangs at the moment, but the ripples they caused affect the playerbase today whether they like it or not. Very CP, no?
Pieces of code, playerside, make stuff easier, and tend to facilitate RP. But it's the GM run, or at least initiated/assisted plots that make you think, "Shit, this is a cool game." and which really help mold your character and the part of their history that will matter most (assuming they survive) - the one they play out in SD.
. o O (They're both right, and wrong. �Why can't they see that?)
. o O (It's not about which is more important, coding and GMing have to work together to create the complex melody and sights and smells and textures that is a rich CyberPunk world. �The whole is more than the sum of the parts.)
. o O (Why do I suddenly feel like Rodney King?)
. o O (I've got some time…wife is working more nights, classes are almost over, even more time soon with the shoulder surgery comming up. �Wonder if Dragon Dictate will work?)
. o O (I wouldn't be out the same time as many of the other GMs are, I guess.)
. o O (I've had a good idea or two over the last year)
. o O (Has any active player spent more time logged on in the last year?)
. o O (Oooo, how I would just love to jump into random NPCs and mess with people .. breathe some more life into the ambient population)
. o O (NPC corpies trying to squeeze chyen out of the scum on Red)
. o O (Fermenting strife and anger and repression of those same scum against the corps, the judges ...)
. o O (No real plots to start, just stir things up. �Keep people on the edge)
. o O (Another hand to help develop the N00bs, teach them, show them the CyberPunk way.)
. o O (GMing like that, in combination with the other GMs and Kevlar and Johnny's coding ... heh)
. o O (Am I really agreeing with Murphy on the lasting impact thing? �Damn, gotta stop that.)
*smile and wander off*
(Edited by Max at 10:22 am on April 14, 2003)
Quote: from Kevlar on 4:53 pm on April 13, 2003[br]No no… Not a player count of less than thirty.A player base of less than 30 active at one time on average. The player count is much much higher than that.
Yes. I know. That's why I said "player count", referring to the @who count, rather than "player base". Either way, the logic is the same, you can assume that at any given time a given percentage of the player base will be logged in. If 30 is 10% of your player base (pulling numbers out my ass for example purposes), then if that average were increased to 40 it's fair to assume your player base would increase.
It's also fair to say the peak time is, reletive to a full day, a fairly short time period. By increasing the overall player base, while possibly over populating the game at peak times, you would create a degree of trickle down to off peak times, resulting in a more round the clock spread of RP for players who simply can't make it on at those peak times.
More groups could be formed, existing groups could be fleshed out and stagnation for players could be decreased.
The idea of registration and char-gen being deliberately difficult is news to me though. Registration used to be a painfully vague and drawn out process which resulted in almost all incoming players requiring admin assistance. Of these cases, a fair percentage left even the rank and file admin stumped, leaving them requiring justice assistance. (And, on at least a couple of occasions, even the justice staff couldn't figure out what the hell the registration database was trying to do, so they just bypassed it altogether… but still). It was ear-marked for serious attention and a number of "duct-tape" alterations were made in the short term to at least improve the situation.
Nevertheless, the whole registration and history process is meant to maintain quality, that's a given, but making the process somehow convoluted or vague doesn't logically filter out a "certain type" of player.
And, come to think of it, I can think of several players who came to the MOO as examples of less than ideal entrants and are now among (or left as) SD's finest. I'll not name names, but they came in as rampant PKers, code abusers, OOC/IC blurrers and atrocious RPers who barely used the existing socials, let alone knew what an emote was. For their troubles they had numerous run-ins with admin and for their troubles they're now loyal and accomplished Sindomians.
Perhaps some of the people who're turned away just need a little patience and guidance. Sadly, patience is a quality that can easily be misplaced over time as an admin, no?
Sadly, patience is a quality that can easily be misplaced over time as an admin, no?
Judging frorm some of your posts in the distant past, I'm sure you can attest to that better than any of us.
-Kevlar
(Edited by Kevlar at 2:15 pm on April 14, 2003)
I have, on one occasion, posted as a result of anger and the details of those events have been well documented.
Nevertheless, I thank you for taking time out from an otherwise intelligent discussion to take a cheap shot and furnish me with another boot print. Antique dealers place great value on matching pairs and I shall cherish them always. ;)
