Alter-ego's

I'm not saying ooh GM's are bad, and their cheeting or whatever, don't get me wrong.  I'd mention a name of someone who I think handles it very well from my experience with him, but I hate singleing people out even if it is for praise.    

Man, why do I always come up with contrevercial shit.  *eyes his post count*  I got a big mouth sometimes, but there are some things that I think should be at least considered, mulled over, and brought to everyone's attention for discussion.    *sigh*

:ducks and covers for the oncoming posts.  

Amazingly now that we have a full compliment of GMs how you flip about.

As usual, you can say nothing complimentary or constructive about Sindome. Honestly, I am not suprised, this is a typical comment from you. As to your comments about PC's, I certainly did not see you giving up Trancer when you signed on as staff, but I do recall Trancer idling in his cube an awful lot while you sat on bitchat telling everyone how wrong they were.

I didn't ONCE see you offer to have us delete Trancer from the game.

Now, as to GMs having players, let me make something ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to everyone here.

ALTS are not the same as PLAYERS

We do NOT get to do things like players do. We GIVE UP OUR CONTROL OVER THE PATH OUR CHARACTERS TAKE. A staff ALT is no longer a player, it is a tool to forward plots, ingame activity, and the theme and environment. We come on board as staff and sacrifice our time, our effort, and our characters so that the rest of the PLAYERS can have a better time. They are little more than NPCs, but, wow, I do not hear ANYONE complaining when an NPC takes an action, or is active in the game… what do I see? I see players trying to kill  them, thwart them, team up with them. Yet as -SOON- as a player even gets a WIFF of an ALT, oh my oh my, out come the rule thumping and callings of 'cheater' or 'foul' or 'ALT ALT ALT!'

On top of that, we are held to a MUCH higher standard of play than any player. ALTs have been removed from the game, and banned from game play in the past when abuse is seen. Yes, I am jumping to bloody say it because I am GREATLY insulted.

You say, Jotun, that we should give up our characters. We do. I certainly did. When I was simply a player, my character Nicadeamus was hot shit. The shit. Active on a daily if not hourly basis. What is he now? A bloody wallflower in the drome that people hit up for money now and then.

Do you HONESTLY think that is the direction I wanted Nicadeamus to go? No. It isn't. He went that way because I had to give up 80-90% of his goals and direction because it would have conflicted with greater plots and goals behind the scenes.

So don't you sit there and insult me, as well as the other GM staff, by saying I didn't give up a lot. Don't you DARE claim that any GM, who come on board to help build this place, doesn't give up a lot.

We bust our asses back here and get nothing but flak for evey god damned decision we make and action we take. Am I in a bad mood today? Yes. Real bad. I haven't had a fucking 'Thank you Iga' on the BGBB in a year, if ever, just bitter ex-administrators like Lotus who couldn't hack it in our team telling us how shitty we are.

Now, to dispell this nonsense about us being overstaffed:

Last time I checked Lotus, you do not have adminstrative access to the MOO, and you log on what? A few hours a month? So I hardly think you are qualified to comment on the how over or under-staffed we are on the MOO.

Just so that EVERYONE in the playerbase knows: A big reason the extra staff were brought on was because we have a massive ammount of in game construction and content to build, and part of a GM's job is to make that content. We do more than just puppet things, and what you do not see are all the other efforts being made to make this game better. New areas, new weapons, new items, new NPCs, improved messages and descriptions. You all think that comes from air? No, it comes from the minds and fingers of GMs.

Are we over staffed with GMs? No. No we are not. I do not concider 3 full time GMs (Jinkorei, Bixby and Jinx), 1 part time GM (myself), 1 severe-part time GM (Gitzo), and 1 GM in training (Chaos) overstaffed. And by FULL TIME I mean able to dedicate 10+ man hours a week regularly. Which is NOT a lot of hours when you look at how much needs to be done as a GM.

We probably have a total of 40 GM Manhours (cycles as I call them) per week. It typically takes 2 cycles per month per player to maintain a minimum level of in game activity. We currently have about 30-35 active players that need a minimum of 2 hours of attention every month. We also have about 15-20 players who need less than that. That works out to 60-70 cycles per month, or about half of the total GM hours available. The rest is spent doing things like building, descing, and plot discussion behind the scenes. And don't even -ASK- how many hours I have spent in the last week helping guests with issues.

Over staffed. I wish.

/rant

We come on board as staff and sacrifice our time, our effort, and our characters so that the rest of the PLAYERS can have a better time.

Nobody forces you to do it, it's a personal choice no?

And good point on point of concentration thing too Lotus, I doubt that there is much that a GM could accomplish with an alt that they couldn't with an NPC.  

That said Iga I think you do a wonderful job doing what you do.   No offense meant to you spcifically, in fact I think you should be a role model for all GM's who must have their alt to play with.    

Anyway finger pointing and name calling has never been something I like to do so I'm -really- stopping right here.  

Consider me bitter if you want, but which one of us looks like the assclown when I posted very calmly and clearly and you, as usual, decided to take everything personally, get your panties in a twist, and rant on about how horrible we are because we don't suck your dick every time you grace us with your online presence. It seems you spent more time bitching about how horrible the players are and how hard you work and how thankless it is than actually working. I know, I know, you're an angsty mohawky-artist, I get it. Regardless. You do a lot, I've never stopped respecting you or what you've done, but fucking chill. You chose to GM, you knew it would be sometimes tedious and nearly always thankless, you accepted that, so get over it. You want a thank you? Here it is. Thank you Iga. This is not sarcasm, this is sincere, I'm thanking you for what you've done for the MOO, and what you will do in the future. I do appreciate it, as do many others.

But you're an asshat. So am I, sometimes, Everyone is. That's how things work. But I can't remember the last time you made a post that wasn't intended to let you vent and make everyone else feel like shit. And that's a problem.

Couldn't hack it? Obviously by many standards I didn't because I don't work well when I deal with assclowns half the time, and had too many RL issues that kept me from putting the time into the MOO that I wanted to. I explained it to Johnny once--I can't be a 'part time" GM. Either I'm putting in at least 15 hours a week, or I'm not doing anything at all. It's just how I function. Kevlar can vouch than when I got on task with something, it came out great. I was the one that fleshed the new Grid out enough so it could get launched when no-one else was either willing or able to do so. I worked to make sure what I was trying to put into the game would be needed/noticed/appreciated. Some people like projects that are useless timesinks that no-one but that person will ever care about. Sound familiar?

Well, a rant answering a rant. The balance returns.

Back on the main topic, your're right--I did once say there wasn't enough GM activity and that the game was boring, and I was right. But, if you'll go back and read my post, I acknowledged that--and simply said that I felt over-compensating like has been done was not a good course of action.

(Edited by Lotus at 4:36 pm on Jan. 26, 2005)

Quote: from Jotun on 4:52 pm on Jan. 26, 2005[br]
Nobody forces you to do it, it's a personal choice no?

Sometimes people have to make certain sacrifices for the game as a whole.  I'm personally not going to go any further into this, because I would give away a bit more than I wish to.  But rest assured some things aren't as simple as you believe them to be.

As a recovering twink I know the damage that can be done by an evil GM with an alter ego, believe me. Has anyone heard of a GMPC killing another player? Has anyone heard of GMPC having much effect even on the game?

I haven't. I've run across a variety of GMPCs and frankly, they don't do much. They function basically like any oldbie does. They might give you a job, help you out when your losing faith, or just steal your empty briefcase and punch you in the gut. Most of them resemble barfly's or just people whose lives are far too important to waste with the likes of you. Its kinda like meeting a celebrity.

It'd be diffrent if they were running around slaughtering the masses. I think…

To quote Paulie Shore,
"We're acting globally, while your acting locally."

Regarding information slipping, fuck it. I mean if you play SD long enough you can recognize whats going to happen before it does. It may not be IC for character to do that but hey sometimes your alot more perceptive then your PC. Suck it up and shut up. As Nemisis basically said, its up to you to help maintain the classified nature of certain information that you should not be privy too.

Oh yeah, regarding plot lines and all that madness. You can give a PC the tools to put a major plot into place and he just may never do a damn thing.

You can't blame what you can't see!

*waves his hand in front of his face rapidly shouting, "You can't see this!"*

So your saying.  Hey, it's ok if they fuck up.  If their held to a higher standard or whatever than it shouldn't be ok.  I'm definately not suggesting perfection, but….

But… what?  Your not suggesting perfection, but your not suggesting anything else either.  

At least nemisis thinks that they should be able to fuck up all the time because they put in time, not that I agree.

I think you should cut them some slack, yes.  And.. i'm sorry, but I did not once, and here is a quote below of what I said, say they should be allowed to fuck up all the time..

Who the fuck cares?  They handle multiple puppets that deal with multiple players problems, and have to remember what the fuck is going on all the time?  Jesus Christ, that shit isn't easy, of course somethings will slip sometimes.  Thats when the player that hears the thing, should step up and pretend not to have fucking heard it.[\quote]

Yes, the admin are held to a higher standard.  Does anyone belive that the standard they are held to is limited to not letting IC information slip by accident?  

I don't think thats a standard at all.  An accident isn't something you can usualy control.  I think the standard they are held to it not being twinks, or doing stupid shit, or -using- the IC knowladge they have, to further /their/ personal character.

I ask this of everyone; how many times have you died, cloned, and slipped up about what you remember since you last updated?  I know I've done it..  It's a similar situation.  Does that mean we should have less players, so we have less RP to interfere with our OOCly memories of what happens, so when we do die, we don't have a problem remembering what our characters should and should not know?

As for what you said about slipping up after a clone death once or twice, maybe.. Yeah, you have to be careful, but my point was that we slip up too, and we only have to remember whats going on with our character.. the GM's have to remember whats going on with /all/ characters, including NPCs.

Then you say that the admin are fucking up.

Just wanted to know why you think you can make all these judgements.

Chaos, are you leading me to believe that someone forced you, or someone else to GM?   Bottom line, it's a choice.  I don't like my job, I don't like alot of things I choose to do, but if I choose to do it I have nobody to bitch at about it than myself, espically if I know what I'm getting into.  

I'm not going to get into the minute details about my becoming a GM, but I will tell you this:  It was decided by the GMing staff and by admin-on-high that my character was hindering the game on a large scale.  Because of this I was approached to become a GM.

When I was told this, I decided that the best thing to do would be to do what was best for the game.  Now, my character is merely a tool to be used to further its development and growth and to increase the flow of RP through the MOO's world.

I was given many rules and guidelines to follow, and was directed towards the GM boards, of which you do not have access, to read over a contract of sorts disclosing my rights and my rules to follow as an alt on Sindome.  That's right, you remember the @rules, right?  Try tacking on something at least that length to the bottom and you've got what we have to follow.  As alts we basically do not have rights.   And as bad as it may sound, the head GM's word is law to us, and Johnny's word is law to him.

Should I not have accepted the GM bit, I'm sure my character would not have been deleted..  but things would have sure got difficult as fuck for him.   Bottom line is, I was made a GM because my character needed more rules to follow in order for the game to grow.

Anyway, as far as your little problem, Jotun, you should consider the number of hours the previously mentioned "GMPC" spent stalking your character and staking out your character's living quarters.  And also consider the amount of time you spent signing on to collect UE only to idle off the MOO later.  We -are- informed of this, you must realize.  As if it weren't obvious enough to begin with.

You feel wronged because you were told to stop being a UE whore.  And when you went outside you were swept into the flow of RP that had started long before.   Started by you, no less.

IC actions have repercussions.  People learn things.  Forensics are in game.  WJF knows where you live.  Big Brother is watching.  George W. Bush is in your pants.  Etc, etc.

Please stop whining about it already.

(Edited by Chaos at 4:13 am on Feb. 1, 2005)

You've been a consistently reliable GM for as long as I can remember. I could go off on a tangent about how great fun or true words this or that was, but it wouldn't do justice, so I'm just gonna leave it at this:

Thank you Iga.

Quote: from Biohazard on 8:19 am on Mar. 31, 2005[br]Just like to add that it's hard to RP with a GM PC, without wondering if they found out things ICly or not.

I just don't get this entire topic.  If you are really playing IN CHARACTER, why are you worrying about OOC things like whether a character got information ICly or not?  Or who is an ALT and who isn't?

And what the hell is the difference between an ALT and an NPC?  They both seem exactly the same to me, only exception being what you call NPCs hang around when not puppeted.  It seems like the real difference here is perception - thinking ALTs aren't fair for this reason or that.  And once you think that while you are playing, you are playing OOC.

I think if you are really staying IC, you should try to leave all this crap at the door.  Interact with characters from your players perspective - not wondering if it is "fair" or if the other character has some kind of advantage over you OOC.  This smells to me like trying to "win the game".  The game is not fair - it is role playing.  And the GMs have all the cards, as they damn well should.  If you reacted to every situation AS YOUR CHARACTER, I don't think this stuff would come up.

I certainly may be missing something here, and I certainly don't have the history everyone else has, but I would just as soon never find out who is an ALT and who isn't.  Maybe it's a case of too much history and knowledge of the game.

I don't know, just some semi-ranty thoughts…

Who thinks a GM is going to try pulling that now? Keep your hand up.

Okay then.

–

n8n, I hope that I have already or will someday RP with one of your characters. You sound like you have integrity.

Do a search for more details.

Now, as to a philosophical discussion of IC and OOC. First, again, I must reiterate the terms as they are:

Character = a persona, an alternate ego, a ficticious entity used to interact with the game world.

IC = In Character
OOC = Out Of Character

ICly = To behave in character, to move into character, to act without OOC motives, to act in context of the situation in a manner applicable to the character.

OOCly = to behave out of character, to move out of character, to act with motives that are out of character, to act out of context in a manner that is counter to the established nature of the character.

What is it to be in character and out of character? It is a dificult line to look at, and Buddhabrand has a point in saying that there is no definitive distinction between the two, at least on a higher conceptual level. But I belive his usage is based on a different set of terms, those being that IC is often used as a synonym for 'In Game' and OOC is used as a synonym for 'In Reality/Off Game'. In direct terms, this use of IC/OOC terms is not quite correct, and for a decent to excellent role player this usage is irrellevant. I will explain that later…

This distinction, where IC/OOC equates In Game/Off Game, is complex. For example: Instant Messangers. This technology gives players abilities to discuss things Off Game that have pertinance to elements In Game. Is this bad? That all depends on the ability of the person involved. For an excellent role player, this is not a problem. For a mediocre to poor roleplayer, this is a devastating practice which results in the character acting out of context in a situation. Acting out of context almost ALWAYS leads to some form of unethical game play.

So, I know all this semantic jibber-jabber is a pain. So I will give an example, and you will have to allow me my personal arrogance in it, since I consider myself to be an excellent role player (though feel free to disagree!)

My 'ALT' or 'Character' is Nicadeamus. Now, when I 'play' Nicadeamus (at any level of quality) the character becomes a persona. In fact, it becomes the dominant persona. We all have multiple personas that we move between during the day. Different people get to see different persona's. (IE: You act or are different around your family than around strangers on the bus.)

Now, for myself, when I allow Nicadeamus to become my dominant persona, the persona that is 'Marcus' is subsumed into the background. Also, the persona that is 'Iga' is subsumed into the background. Effectively, they cease to be the motivating driver behind the actions I take in the game.

In effect, I cease to be Marcus, and become Nicadeamus, with all of Nicadeamus' motivations and desires.

Then, when my time for game play is over, I subsume the Nicadeamus persona and bring the Marcus persona back to the forefront.

THIS, in essence, is the nature of IN CHARACTER.

ALL players do this process, but it is the degree to which one can allow a persona to achieve dominance that indicates the ability of the roleplayer.

So, YES, the Marcus persona (my 'key' persona as an individual) knows ALL sorts of things. It knows everything that Nicadeamus knows, and Iga, and Marcus. Marcus is my core persona, so has to know these things. But when I am fully Nicadeamus, there are HUGE tracts of knowledge that are unavailable to the Nicadeamus persona. It is still in my brain, but Nicadeamus does not have direct access to it. To access it, I have to flip to Marcus, then flip back to Nicadeamus.

And that shows in roleplaying quality.

In a single sentance: To be In Character is to participate in controlled schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder.

That, in a nutshell, is my metaphisical view on In Character and Out Of Character.

I wasn't just talking about 'in game' versus 'off game/in reality'. I was pointing out that you are never 'off reality'.

Surely you don't actually believe that flipping a switch between personas is analagous to your playing the role of a fictitious character as opposed to your maintaining a sense of self-identity. That you yourself are nothing more than an interchangeable 'key persona' is an odd choice of words, though David Hume might agree with you if your psychological makeup consistuted of two different mental histories, that between a character and between 'yourself'… which truly would make you schizophrenic.

Aristotle wouldn't though. Metaphysics (= ta meta ta phusika) is not the study of things 'beyond the physical world', as might easily be confused with psychological/mental attitudes or the sound of the word. It's the study of the nature and structure of being qua being, reality as it is in and for itself.

A metaphysics that holds as a real distinction 'in game/off game' is utterly absurd as it would collapse any distinction between apperance and reality, and hence it would not be a metaphysics at all. You do not 'in effect' cease being yourself simply because you become absorbed in something. I for one can't tolerate confusions between psychological dispositions and metaphysics in its proper sense.

So who are you Iga, Marcus or Nicadeamus? Surely your essence can't be both at once? That's the metaphysical question. :P

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 5:29 pm on April 1, 2005)

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 5:31 pm on April 1, 2005)

Self is made up of personas
Personas are made up of Elements
Elements are made up of motivations
Motivations are made up of  circumstances
Circumstances are made up of events
And events are made up of other events.

So…can Iga and Marcus be at the same time? I think yes...

Anyhow, this is getting way off topic.

So, I will leave you with this lovely quote:

Tweeter and the Monkey-man were hard up for cash, so they stayed up all night selling cocain and hash, to an undercover cop who had a sister named Jenn, who for reasons unexplained, she loved the Monkey-man...

(Edited by Nayr at 5:40 pm on June 3, 2005)