Cloning

This kinda irked me, because I didn't know it was how it worked, and then it screwed me over.

Here's the scenario:
               You get dead. You have 3 options:
                           1) Go Light… no more character.
                           2) Go Clone... You don't remember shit, and your stats                                                              are back to when you cloned last.
                           3) Get corpse cloned! ... you lose 3 grand but you remember it all!

Okay, of the three choices I'd say most would choose numero tres. You don't lose any memory or RP. However, I was not aware that you lost UE/stats.

In my situation, I updated my clone about 20 minutes before I was killed. Why? Because I was heading into rival territory with my flag held high and my piece drawn, locked cocked and ready to rock. It's only sensible for me to assume I might die. BLAMMO! I did die. Well shisno.

So, all of a sudden my number one mate corpse clones me! It's painful as hell, i remember being shot and I have ghost pains. fuck me in the skull with a 10" dick. Well I didn't notice at first, but of the stats I had to the curve/over the curve I lost about 2 raises per stat. I can only judge on 2 stats b/c thats all i had to that point. So, to my figuring I lost 4 UE and 3 grand b/c I was corpse cloned. But yipeee, I remember the last 20 minutes (35 if you count death tunnel).

Well to top it off guess what?... If I update my clone I lose my previous update and stats. Which kind of defeats the purpose of updating, no?

Now then, I understand that corpse cloning is meant to be most unpleasant; physically and mentally. But I got screwed out of 2 days worth of UE (because you can't have 4 in 1 day) just to save 20 minutes of basically nothing (in my case). I can understand a temporary loss in stats too, side effects of the pain and mental anguish, whatev. But a permanent loss is re-damn-diculous.

It's completely different than losing un-spent UE in cloning. This was spent UE that I earned and used. If I hadn't been corpse cloned I still woulda had it. I was once complaining about losing unspent UE in the cloning process, Iga (i think) explained that unspent UE was like experience you had earned during RP, if you didn't use it and didn't update your clone then when you died you lost that experience on activation.

Well, I see no loss of experience in corpse cloning. Yet I see a loss in stats. To top it all off, when I updated a day or so later, I'm worse off than I was 2 days ago... reverse progress.

IMO, this should be worked on. If you want to add a loss of stats to corpse cloned individuals, make it temporary so they don't want to go be billy bad ass and attack whoever just killed them. But don't take it away for good, thats just stupid. In this case, I really wish I hadn't been corpse cloned. I was anticipating death and made a point to do something to remember slightly what was going on. In my case, I was called out on a mission to the MIX to backup another Judge. I can assume that I will die on a mission like that and come out ahead. So I update my clone, die, then lose the points I just went and saved. It would make me want to act crazy and demented after being corpse cloned and throw my naked body off the highest building just so I can forget the last 20 minutes happened to me.

/flame off.

EDIT:
yes, I know i'm whining about measely UE. but the RP surrounding my death was pretty much meaningless to me and had no bearing on my character except for death whiched seemed kinda pointless from my position.

(Edited by Tool at 6:32 pm on June 14, 2007)

Clones weren't supposed to be a get out of jail free card, the penalties were included to discourage reckless/unrealistic behaviour.

Honestly, I'm really okay with it, I was just steamed a little b/c it came out of the blue and broadsided me. So I wanted to vent :)

But realistically, the brain doesn't start degrading until it runs out of oxygen, and that doesn't happen for a bit.  Hence why people can die IRL and can be brough back within a set time limit.  Dying doesn't mean you instantly go retarted due to brain damage, brain must suffocate first.

Quote: from Damarung on 5:08 pm on June 17, 2007[br]But realistically, the brain doesn't start degrading until it runs out of oxygen, and that doesn't happen for a bit.  Hence why people can die IRL and can be brough back within a set time limit.  Dying doesn't mean you instantly go retarted due to brain damage, brain must suffocate first.

Realistically people don't trade gunshots and naturally heal within a matter of hours/days. Realistically people don't walk from one side of a city to the other in 30 secs. Realistically if you suffered a gunshot or serious blow to the head you shouldn't be allowed to corpse clone at all. Realistically ad infinitum.

Realistically wouldn't be a very fun game.

Regardless of that, losing a few UE worth of stats amounts to an extremely small penalty for avoiding a perm. Corpse cloning is your last ditch option, it was added because some players seemed incapable of ensuring they had a clone and felt aggrieved when they permed even though it was entirely their own fault.

Play style seems to have changed dramatically round here, but you need to bear in mind the game was designed to be RP heavy with limited combat and death. It was designed by people who'd left CS and wanted a game where every minor little grievance wasn't resolved by lethal combat and clones wouldn't be expended like lives in a shoot-em-up. Death was designed to penalize players for good reason, if those penalties bother you then stop dying. ;)

Again, I'm not claiming to have any say in this now, but that's how and why it's like it is.

EDIT: But yea, I agree with the principal of Tool's problem, it's not documented anywhere and current players aren't necessarily as aware of these things as players who were around when they were coded.

EDIT 2: Incidentally, while DCD refers to the extreme stat loss that every clone has a small chance of getting the degeneration of clones is by design. Think of it like a jpg of a jpg of a jpg of a jpg or a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy etc, each successive clone has a small margin of error/mutation. That's how Johnny originally described it to me. :)

(Edited by Rastus2 at 3:26 am on June 18, 2007)

Genetek wouldn't want you to know that you might come out of the tanks less a person then when you went in.

Quote: from Slither on 10:15 pm on June 18, 2007[br]Genetek wouldn't want you to know that you might come out of the tanks less a person then when you went in.

While that may be true it doesn't mean the problems wouldn't be fairly common knowledge. Considering the prevalence of cloning technology it'd be pretty hard to hide the evidence which is essentially walking the streets.

Quote: from Rastus2 on 4:17 am on June 19, 2007[br]
While that may be true it doesn't mean the problems wouldn't be fairly common knowledge.

Common knowledge is subjective.

If you woke up to find out that you were a  little weaker and it was harder to hold your gun up, maybe you had some trouble thinking for a few days, would it be that difficult to make the connection that you're feeling like crap because you just died? were just riddled with bullets or hit by a car in the tubes? were pushed off a building and then shot, cloned, and pushed off again??

while the clone tanks rebuild your body to as close to original spec as they can get, corpse clone only has your necro-tissue to deal with.

Ok, let that part of the issue be laid to rest and not corpse cloned. it affects your body, and the loss of a few character points reflects that.

Now, as for the documentation, we shall look into that further. Could be that it just hasn't been doc'd because no one has taken the time to do it. I'll get back to you on that.

Touche :P

Quote: from Rastus2 on 12:03 pm on June 19, 2007[br]Colour me confused, but did you quote me because you were agreeing with me or did my rather poor use of a double-negative make you think I wasn't basically saying the same thing? :)

Umm… I was just pointing out that "common knowledge" depends on the commonality.

What is common knowledge for a street rat in red isn't necessarily common knowledge for a corpie wage slave or a desert nomad.

as far as the problems with corpse cloning, people wouldnt necessarily know that they lost UE, because UE is an OOC thing to make our IC characters better, not an IC thing.

i.e. it never happens that your character wakes up and thinks, "Hmm.. i think i'm going to spend some of my UE to get prettier today," and adds some to charisma.

You, the player, adding UE to charisma is reflecting your character's connections, learning about the way the streets run, who's in charge of what gang, feeling more sure and secure, and learning to handle mixer/corp/judge type people better.

The loss of a few points of UE should be considered weakness after the cloning, and not hard numbers.

So is it common knowledge that you loose UE? no.
Is it common knowledge that you feel like crap after being corpse cloned? yes.

Old school cloning discussion

(Edited by Rastus2 at 4:30 am on June 23, 2007)