Friends Vs. Enemies

I'm asking for popular opinion here: What would a character who dosn't trust people lose out on that a character who tried to be buddies with everyone who walks into the Drome gains?

Is it that it's more fun to be friends than strangers, or enemies? Is there a lack of RP associated with the stigma of being a chummer who's had one too many deals go sour and won't get involved with people he doesn't know?

I understand needing to trust someone at some point to some degree, and people fresh into the gates needing to make their mark as fast as they can. I get it.

I understand that we have a small, tallented player base instead of a big dumb one, so you have to make the most of players being around. I get that too.

But I see character do this all the time: Someone they've never seen before walks into the drome, and before the person has a chance for an entrance pose (I'll rant and rave about that some other time), they've nodded to the guy, and said a friendly greeting.

And yet this exact same person would take a job to kill another guy, or rob someone, or whatever. It's like he's got two personalities or something.

And we're not talking about the bartender either. This guy was sitting at the bar when he accomplished this feat from accross the room in what I can only assume is an aptempt to grab the persons attention and befriend him.

And that's ok, I guess. Everyone's got their own style of RP, and their own view of their character and what's IC for him. And for some people who arn't corrupted by the world they live in, this persona is quite literal. I'm taking about the people who are suposed to be the runners… the people who steal and kill and perform other dirty deeds. I'm talking about people who are out there picking peoples pockets outside the bar (but never inside it where the real people are) and killing sleepers and doing god knows what else.

But what would happen if instead, the guy ignored him? Forgetting for a moment the IC implications of him having his attention somewhere other than ALL the exits at the same time, what is the reason some people actively persue making new friends over all other forms of RP to the contrary of their actions when not around people?

Is there a perception that it be not as fun? I ask because I don't know, and wish to get a better understanding.

And there's tons of exceptions to this too. I do know of characters who do exactly the opposite. Is it like getting over the friend hump? You gotta make so many friends before you can stop acting like a lonely guy at a singles bar?

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter, any and all are welcome. There are no right answer to this.

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 12:57 am on Mar. 22, 2004)

(Edited by Kevlar at 12:59 am on Mar. 22, 2004)

By Kevlar at Mar 22, 2004, 12:41 AM | 0

This is a difficult issue, indeed.
It's one that, I feel, is entirely genre.
Is being generally good-natured unthemely? If so, we're all guilty.

I'd actually argue the other side of it, too.
It's possible to take the opposite style, the one you're advocating, to such an extent as to become almost a camp insult to the genre of cyberpunk.

Perpetually talking in code as though it's important that you keep everything from what you do for a living to what flavor potato chips you eat to what your shoe size is to what kind of music you like makes you look ridiculous, and is ultimately irritating- no, we shouldn't all be best friends, but the game would be -boring- if it were impossible to engage anyone in conversation. You don't have to be trusted friends to chat.

And that's another point. Why do people act this way? To a certain extent, because it's human nature, even in adverse social circumstances such as the social collapse model engendered in cyberpunk. Even if every tenth person might try to kill you, it's human nature to want to try to talk to the other nine. You don't have to be trusting, gullible, or naive to need human contact. You don't even have to be especially NICE to need it. It's a basic human need, and research has proven this inside-out.

Furthermore, from an OOC perspective.. we kind of HAVE to be at least a little social. Friendliness, at least the appearance of it, tends to promote longer sessions of RP, and longer durations of interaction between characters. Isn't it boring to spend a whole day doing nothing but nodding to everyone and moving on without another word?

The reality is, -we- aren't living in this world, and we can only really suspend disbelief to a certain extent. I suspect, and obviously this is -very- subject to individual interpretations of the genre, that if we played -strict- and -hard- to the social mores, people probably wouldn't have a lot of fun. The game would inevitably devolve to the crudest and most brief of social interaction punctuated by lots of combat.

I could go on about this much, much longer. In answer to your question,

>>What would a character who dosn't trust people lose out on that a character who tried to be buddies with everyone who walks into the Drome gains? <<

She loses out on RP. She loses out on having something to do. She loses out on the relative safety of being reasonably sure that at least a few people in the mix aren't going to pick a fight with her.

Personally, I think the problem is self-resolving. Social Darwinism. Everyone can try to be buddies with everyone who walks through the door, but it isn't going to work. The people who can play up those strengths will indeed meet with success, and the others won't.

By Murasaki at Mar 22, 2004, 12:58 AM | 0

I hear what your saying about social darwinism. And let's face it: A MOO is a social tool.

She loses out on RP. She loses out on having something to do.

I think what I forgot to mention was that in my experience, enemies make for great RP.

In fact, in my not so humble opinion, I think enemies make for BETTER RP than friends do. You don't get a massive adrelinin rush from talking to your friends, but you do when your arch-nemesis goes down in a hailstorm of bullets.

I guess it depends on what your after, too. If your character would rather sit around a bar and drink and chat and work behind the scenes than take chances with his life and vie for king of the proverbial hill, that's fine. But the people I'm thinking of seem to walk both paths at different times. I mean they make these friends only to get in leauges with them and perform their very dirty deeds for money. So which is it, your a social butterfly who's friends with everyone he knows, or a hardened thug who has no problem killing people?

It just makes me think, "Something's wrong. They're having to bend their character in unnatural ways just to accomplish their goal." What ever happened to perfect strangers (Not the show, Murphy)? Business associates? Faceless Johnsons who's only association with their employees is via electronic communication? Top dogs who don't have friends, only lackies? Middle men? Sub-contractors?

I'm not trying to say these people should nod to everyone they see and move on without saying a word. I'm just trying to figure out why there never seems to be a gray area of 'friendship'.

What is missing from the IC toolset the game provides which forces certian people to have this split personality disorder? Is human nature really that compelling? And more importantly, is it really at odds with the nature of the theme, and the medium it's presented in?

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 3:13 pm on Mar. 22, 2004)

By Kevlar at Mar 22, 2004, 11:59 AM | 0

Well you could look at it like this, these people might just be playing there cards right, to try and become 'friends' with people because if people trust you, they are going to tell you things, let you into there cubes and apartments, give you better prices on goods, or trust that there getting a good deal when your really ripping them off. I can't speak for anyone when I say it.. but I think that might be what some people are doing. Sort of like rich High School girls. They all pretend to like each other, but deep down they dont.

They would betray these people if the price was right, or if it fit their needs. And of course, its much easier to betray someone if they trust you. It also makes for awesome RP. Whats better, when your enemy steps out of the shadows with a gun, or when your enemy steps out of the shadows with nothing in there hands, and you turn to grin at your friend, because you both are gunna kick this guys ass, and you realize your staring down the barrel of your FRIENDS gun.

(Edit)
You could put it like this, theres times when you just clash with someone, and you end up hating them, and theres times when you just deal with a person because you know someday you will have the satisifaction of fucking them over.

(Edited by Nemisis at 6:28 pm on Mar. 22, 2004)

By Nemisis at Mar 22, 2004, 3:26 PM | 0

This is a greed driven Genre. The reason everyone's friends, is because the temptations aren't great enough. Why kill someone for stuff, that they can't sell, because there's no demand for it, because, you won't be able to sell it either.

If you create the greed, you create the conflict.

I tell you what. I won't tell you how to do it, I'll just do it.

again..

By King[Fu] at Mar 24, 2004, 8:05 AM | 0

Well, Well, Well, just the topic I've been contemplating in my head, both IC'ly, and OOC'ly. I want to start by thanking Kev for bringing it up.

Second I'd like to address the following question/response:

What would a character who dosn't trust people lose out on that a character who tried to be buddies with everyone who walks into the Drome gains?
She loses out on RP. She loses out on having something to do. She loses out on the relative safety of being reasonably sure that at least a few people in the mix aren't going to pick a fight with her.

While this is true for new immigrants and OOC newbs charcters who are established IC'ly, as well as Seasond RP'ers who are SD veterans(wether their charcter's new or not) cannot really use this excuse. Yes, it can be hard to have good RP with no friends, but I say it's at least eaqually hard having good RP with no PC enemies.

Yes I hate to make the destinction, and yes I realize that I have always been vocal about more GM interaction, but PC enemies are more fun. (no knock to the gm's out there, your doing a great job lately by the way)

Next.

Personally, I think the problem is self-resolving.

I do, for the most part, agree with that. If you -are- into the CP theme, and if you -are- into your charcters brain, seperating it from your personal actions and thoughts, then the approperate RP will happen.

I could also go on, and on on this subject (and I just may in a later post) but I'll just stop here for now.

By Jotun at Mar 24, 2004, 10:34 AM | 0

I think maybe one of the problems people have is anxiety. Anxiety about what is going to happen to there character, who is going to plot against them, who is going to rob them, who they can really trust, what the repercussions of doing or saying what they want to say are going to be, what is picking a fight really going to solve, things like that.

So, you stay away from situations where they will have to think about these questions. The same as you would stay away from confrontation in real life, by saying your sorry, or whatever.

By Nemisis at Mar 24, 2004, 11:23 AM | 0

I think maybe one of the problems people have is anxiety. Anxiety about what is going to happen to there character, who is going to plot against them, who is going to rob them, who they can really trust, what the repercussions of doing or saying what they want to say are going to be, what is picking a fight really going to solve, things like that.
So, you stay away from situations where they will have to think about these questions. The same as you would stay away from confrontation in real life, by saying your sorry, or whatever.

Now there's an astute observation.

But it begs the question: Why do people play cyberpunk themed games if they wish to avoid anxiety with their characters?

-Kevlar

By Kevlar at Mar 24, 2004, 11:32 AM | 0

I think this might be the first time ever, at least publically, that I agree with Kevlar :)

Why play the game if you don't want to risk anything?

That said, there's another side to that coin. The learning curve is very, very steep statistically in this game. Very few people want to spend the time building a character up to do the kinds of things they want to be able to do, only to have them killed in the blink of an eye by an older, more established character.

Sollutions? Make the learning curve less steep.

Fine, but, then you get the opposite extreme. Idoits running around ganking oldbies before they've even had thier history approved.

Make clones cheaper and/or available somewhere in the Mix and/or cash easier to get hold of, thus taking the sting out of death.

Okay, again, would promote people to take more risks, but, at the same time would cheapen death, an element of the game I like, is that dying isn't taken too lightly.

set your self @merciful?

Fight fewer battles to the bitter end. I personally think it's far, far too hard to flee from combat.

I think people just need reason to not like each other, and, that's not something I think there's an easy fix for. I'd love to see factions, rival groups and gangs. Maybe have a job system that forces players to work against each other, to make money from it..one group gets a package to deliver, the other is asked to intercept it?

I'll stop before this gets any more incoherent :)

By King[Fu] at Mar 24, 2004, 12:02 PM | 0

DISCLAIMER : I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just giving some ideas.

I normally tend to act as the character would be, in that way the demand for a history to even start to get some chyen is awesome.

Be nice to people if you need to. Either you want their chy, their booty or to be under the guard of a big brother. The rest are just like the dude at the trainstation, in front of you in the line for a movie…

You'll probably only try to chat them up if you're totally alone.

Look at people before talking to them (almost got me into some serious ass-wooping, my ass their wooping), read their descriptions and then act. Treat them by their class and their clothing...

React! Poses are there for it. Do a to <player> <text> and a .sigh or wathever. The languages itself already do for great RP so go signal language, drawings and etc...

Keep your friends close and you enemies closer. Pay for info on him, try to be one step ahead of them and trip/trap/explode/squish/slice them.

Use a more descritive @look_place, stay as far away from the default 'is standing here.'. Change it from time to time. If its raining, get wet. Got beaten up, add a bruise a bood sprinkled to it. Got laid? Put a wide smile on yer face.

Be moody. Low on chy? Get frustrated, blame the corps, woop the ass of a corpie that got out at the wrong station. Got money? Spend it, get goods, weapons, girls/boys, drugs.

Pick your fights, avoid the known punk, aim at the fresh meat. Someone took your job? Put a bullet in their head and take their place.

Threaten people before attacking, most problems can be discussed into a fair ammount of chy. And even into a weekly income to you. Pull out your weapons, aim and shout "Hit the sky!"

By Xeethot at Mar 24, 2004, 1:09 PM | 0

I think people just need reason to not like each other, and, that's not something I think there's an easy fix for. I'd love to see factions, rival groups and gangs.

Very true, form my viewpoint gang activity has dropped off since I started playing, but more importantly there are no real "factions" right now, there are little disturbances, and disagreements, but they are for the most part involving only 2 or 3 people, or are far imbalanced.

Nemisis and Kung[fu] are both also right about people being worried about what happens to eachother, and the learning curve… and there's no easy solution to either of those problems.

I think that in alot of circumstances I've seen of late there has been reason for conflict, but some pc's just don't want to go there... add that to the rising number of corpies and non-combat oriented charcters (which aren't a bad thing, they should be paying others to do their dirty work) and you get less and less conflict.. plus from an IC standpoint I've witnessed alot of broke charcters who don't have the cash to get into huge war/confrontations...

once again I could go on, but the last post didn't exactily read like I wanted it to so I'll stop at that..

By Jotun at Mar 24, 2004, 8:14 PM | 0

Wise words.

There are plenty of players out there who have money, that they could spread around. You're a fixer or a faceman? expand your business a little. Hire some people to shake down businesses on RED. Sure, you could probably do it yourself, but, it's fun to have a band of underlings!

How does that create conflict? It doesn't particulalrly, but, if someone else wants a piece of the action, then, that's where things get interesting.

You're collecting protection money from Monkey Dave's Monkey porn Emporium. Monkey Dave can only make 500 chyen a week selling porn to monkies, so, obviously, he can only afford to pay you maybe 200 a week. If someone else starts shaking Dave down too, it's in your interest to stop them, because either Dave will go broke, and you'll get nothing, or, you'll get a smaller cut of what Dave has available to pay out.

So, you send your minions to break some kneecaps and make the point that Monkey Dave is -your- bitch, and no one elses. yay. conflict.

You sell weapons. No one's buying them. Send a few goons out to create some havoc, and create some fear. Fear drives demand, consumer markets, even today thrive on it. Everyone thinks they might get jumped by some guys with bats and knives? who knows, they might buy a gun to protect themselves, or, hire a bodyguard.

The balance of power should be that those who're established, give the chances to make or break for those who aren't. It doesn't fall to new characters to make things happen, because, let's face it, we all know what the stat curve is like, a lone newbie isn't going to rock too many boats. That said, a group of newer characters, a handful of bats and knives and the right attitude could go a long way.

So, basically..stop looking to other people to create the things you want to see, and do it yourselves!

I'm not done ranting yet though!

As was said, there are more corpies and non-combat characters around than before; Mixers can be used to further your career! Someone work for your corp who gets paid more than you? fine, screw them over, have them killed, have them framed, use some of that cosy salary to further your career. Speculate to accumulate!

How about a journalist for NLM who wants to write a career making story, but just never seems to be in the right place at the right time? Set something up..pay people to do something, so you -can- be on the spot, get that big story that'll have Jamerson crawling over himself to try and pay you more money, and get you your own TV show.

Ambition and greed. Good for what ails you.

By King[Fu] at Mar 25, 2004, 7:07 AM | 0

The player base does have alot to do with this situation, I'm lucky enough to usually have people to RP with , or at least something to do ICly, when I log on �(which is a frickin lot). �But there are many times when nobody is around. � The small playerbase is such a double edged blade, on one hand you have a playerbase that is full of outstanding players, all interested in having great RP, which would be a different situation if the playerbase were hundreds and hundreds of people. �The key is finding many -good- players, which I see happening a little, the base is slowly growing, but it's hard too…

though slightly off topic, It would make it easier on the Noob chars to give them more money without making them a target for thugs. here's how: set them up with a new immigrant bank account at WSB, will make them explore more faster, and show noobs the bank too.. or not..*shrug*

(Edited by Jotun at 9:02 am on Mar. 25, 2004)

By Jotun at Mar 25, 2004, 8:25 AM | 0

In my experience, the best RP doesn't come from enemies.

And the best RP doesn't come from friends, either.

The best RP comes from a combination of both.

And you don't make useful friends hanging out in a bar and you don't make nasty enemies hanging out in a bar either.

You make them by being at the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. By having the right object and showing it to the wrong person. By goofing up in a way that should get you killed or succeeding in a way that…should get you killed.

By reaching out to the right person in the right way the second you see an opening and milking them for all they're worth. And you're thinking...if I milk people that way...I'll just make more enemies? Bullcock. You make it worth their while to be used. Not just money.

Stop thinking of what you can get (even though that is CP) and think of what you can give. Then you'll know how to go about getting what you want while giving what you can. It doesn't have to be a fair trade. You can give a lot more than what you'll get, it all depends how much you want/need that info, help, item, whatever. And vice versa.

In my characters infancy, I don't think he met a single person by hanging aroundin a bar. He met his most trusted friends/most hated enemies by sticking his nose where it didn't necessarily belong and by dumb luck, by fucking up and having the presence of mind to make it look like he succeeded. Because it's all relative to perception. He made the worst enemies a newbie could possibly make, and he still made it this far, over a thousand days later.

Words are the least effective way of communicating, because talk is just talk, talk is cheap. Action is what will get you somewhere, and action doesn't mean fighting or killing or stealing. It doesn't mean doing something, it means making it look like you're doing something.

Say you're a newbie. A month old. And a new newbie comes along. You have a chat and pay the fucker a few thou to do something inane. Suddenly, to this guy, you are THE MAN.

This is a very, very basic example but I'm sure you all get the idea. The same concept can be applied to everything.

The most you'll gain by just being a barfly is people going, "NORM!"

P.S: Balki was the shit. :werd:

By Murphy at Mar 25, 2004, 4:47 PM | 0

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-	Fay	9m
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