Hiding

If you don't wanna do it that way, by giving the LAW entry, I could RP shooting the locks off the doors since I don't got a ram. �I've no doubt a 13mm hand -cannon- would kick the shit out of a wooden door. �Whichever way works for you guys.

*huffs a bit* �Man..that felt sooooo good.

As for the straight and narrow, yes my char walks that normally unless you get in the way of him catching his man, in this case here, he was to be a little more fierce.  Threats to fine, and I was going to aim at the guy, but for some reason…I just can't get that to work for me.  Anyway, I knew though that when he said his piece about corporate connections that was my cue to lay off.  Had I continued, I woulda gotten chewed by Pratt about it cuz suddenly the slimeball woulda had ten friends on the council even though he has no value at all, and once again, my authority and power would have been taken away from me by a nobody, that's also one of the letdowns I've been dealing with.

Cut out that last bit.. too off topic.  I do know that the whole ordeal is not over..not by a longshot if I got any say.

(Edited by Damarung at 7:14 am on Oct. 20, 2006)

Plus, on a RL/OOC point, we as admin are not comfortable giving acess to apartments/cubes/whatever that does not belong to you, when the other person is not online, and able to do SOMETHING about it.

No one likes to wake up at Go Clone/Go Light, or in a WJF cell,and we only do it in extreme circumstances.

Quote: from Biohazard on 1:56 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]
Also, if you're a connected semi-corpie, and the Judge knows this, and you know he knows this, then it isn't poor rp to think he is bluffing when he aims that weapon.

So, lemme get this straight.

You're friends with the mayor of your city.

A cop comes to your house, and shoves a .45 halfway down your throat.

You…laugh?

/golfclap

Quote: from Murphy on 11:14 am on Oct. 20, 2006[br]

Quote: from Biohazard on 2:09 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]

That depends on you and your character.

If you play a character that never has any doubts, particularly when they're 2.5 pounds of pressure away from death, then you're RPing a rather 2-dimensional character.

Probably, but that's someones character.

Alot of things also depend on the state of mind of that character. (Sober, high, drunk, etc)

Personally, I would cooperate. I'm just saying it's not everyones nature to cooperate with the law, especially if they have that clone safety net (which can be seen as poor RP, yes, but if they clone, they're not going to remember the pain of death, right?)

Quote: from Biohazard on 2:24 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]
I'm just saying it's not everyones nature to cooperate with the law, especially if they have that clone safety net (which can be seen as poor RP, yes, but if they clone, they're not going to remember the pain of death, right?)

People wince when they get hurt. Even hardened combat vets. That's instinct. Being afraid is also instinct - the depth of conviction that you'll be fine while staring death in the face takes a very extreme type of fanatical devotion. Unless someone RPs this every day, they're just metagaming and I have no respect for metagamers.

The main problem is, people seem to think that because Judges are given a neat gun, armour, and (very) occasional NPC support, that we should be locked in a box with barely any way to touch the IC world in any significant fashion.

We are effectively boxed in - if we go to RED, NPC armies are mobilized to stop us if an admin is on, and we also get sanctions from our IC superior officer. Even if we're off duty and go down there in civvies, we get auto-attacked by spawning memento'd NPCs.

I dare ANYONE currently playing to describe what my character looks like without looking at his @profile. Anyone? Anyone?

Yet, I can sneak by Ashlin in civvie clothes, and random gangers will spawn out of nowhere because some guy in a t-shirt that they didn't see just snuck by.

Judges don't have an overwhelming advantage in any sense. Individual characters who are Judges may, by their own merits, be suited to foiling criminal activities if given free run - but any intelligent action by a Judge has been traditionally punished, rather than rewarded.

That's why I originally stopped playing. I've heard the whole "quit being a Judge, then", but even if I did, I still have one of the most known names in the game - now a synonym for 'Judge' - preceding me whenever I walk into a room, despite the fact that there's no player currently alive who knows what my character looks like under the helmet. I should know, I planned it that way.

But that will never stop people from metagaming - even if all the players in the game try not to, there's always that little voice in the back of their heads prodding them to be careful what they say around this random guy in a t-shirt. It's normal.

Quote: from Damarung on 2:46 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]Fuckin aye, you summed up my frustration with that intelligent, and well stated post…bravo Judge!

I've had practice. It's the sixth or seventh time I've posted the same thing, with different wording. :P

Of course..my character didn't start off as a Judge, he's been a bartender and a TERRA agent and is -well- known by look and hell, he's even been broadcast allover the entire city for a -prolonged- ammount of time (by non IC accident since the admin whom was responsible -left- without removing the camera)  So I suppose that argument doesn't directly apply to him.

(Edited by Damarung at 4:32 am on Oct. 21, 2006)

We will not allow a PC or group of PC's into an apartment or cube or car, or locker, if the other player is NOT ONLINE, unless the circumstances are extremely rare.

ICly, there would be door crackers and shit like that.  Everyone would be able to get into everyone elses shit and the game would suck.  It just isn't fair.  Yes, the RP could have started and then the person logged off, but unless that is a CONSTANT occurance, which in this care it was -not-, we are not going to penalize the character that had to leave, for having RL obligations.

We treat you all the same.  It isn't something against Judges.  

One little known fact.  I did play a TERRA agent for a good amount of time, before I played Seven.  So I -do- know where you are coming from.  I also puppet Judges.  This is not in fact the same, but I hold them to the same standard that I hold you guys too.

Yes, the Judges should be more powerful, BUT if they ARE more powerful, then will it really make the game better?

I use the getting into locked rooms to get at sleeping players as an example.  In real life, you'd want to get somewhere that there is no SIC, like the sewers.  And while there are realativly safe places to sleep down there, if someone stumbles apon you and starts robbing you, you will NOT wake up.  You will have no chance to defend yourself, you won't hear any footsteps and wake up in a fit of paranoia shooting into the shadows.  You can't sleep with a gun under your pillow on Sindome.

That's why we have to enforce certain rules to maintain the fairness of the game.  I personally have no problem with Judges going down to RED.  That's where the crime is.  Yeah, there is TERRA, but the way I see it, that's for the day to day so and so robbed me and this and that.  I think there should be Judge patrols on RED.  I think criminals should be brought to Justice and arrested and clone deathed.  

I've had lots of fun running away (and sometimes towards) Murphy or Allandra, or any of the others.  It does add a measure of fear to the game that keeps you on your toes.  I'd love to see more RP and less right out combat, but that's something we all have to decide on.

One person can't say, hey i'm going to try to RP this out.. because they're afraid the other person is going to be like.. the moment i see them i'm splattering them, and then you, the person that wanted to RP is on the defensive, you get the second combat round, you are more likley to die.. etc.

Do I think Judges should just hide in the shadows at the Drome or at Carnal Desires, waiting to over hear people talking about what crimes they have or plan on committing?  NO.  That has happened, it sucks.  It's happened to ME.  I think it is unrealistic to assume you would not be noticed, and to assume you would be able to hear what the hell was being said in a loud ass club with hard house playing.  Do I think people should be talking about killing other people in clubs?  Maybe not, but if they are locked up in there cubes discussing it, then they aren't availible in person to RP with and people walk around for hours looking for someone to talk to and interact with.

I ask you guys this.  In an area the size of RED, that houses 65 MILLION people.  Do you think it is IC to walk into an apartment building and ask to see if someone is staying there?  I mean.. Just on a hunch?  There would be thousands of apartment building and cube hotels.  THOUSANDS.  

I'm guilty of it too, we all are.  We cut corners in our roleplaying because things don't occur to us or we decide we'll just make a logical jump to the next step with out justifying it ICly.  I am not picking on anyone.  I do this too.  

I've gone off a bit here.  I think this deserves further discussion.  I think we all need to talk about why we are here and whats best for the game.  I'd love to have a town hall meeting like we did back in the day..

I'd love to make it a quasi-rule that you have to RP with someone for atleast 3 minutes before you start combat too.  I think everyone would have a lot more fun.

I'm against breaking down doors and giving access to sleeping PCs at this stage in the game.

I think ICly it should be possible to do given certain requirements being met, but in order to preserve game balance there should be equally effective ways to block against this sort of thing.

A) Not just any junior judge should be able to do it

B) Not so junior criminals should be able to, for example, fake identities for registering themselves easier, making finding the right cube a whole lot harder. Or, for example, setting some counter measures up on a door so when the judges blow that shit a couple hundred plasteel nails and a shaped charge drill them into swiss cheese.

This would make it so: Senior judges could nab petty moron criminals easily even if they are sleeping, lock em up, terrorize them a little, whatever. They deserve it because they are scum, and the balance of the high vs. the low is preserved.

Senior criminals could seriously fuck with senior judges, and effectively eliminate junior judges from being able to mess with them while sleeping.

So to summarize, I'm all for giving access to cubes IF the game balance is preserved with a whole lot of other counter-shit.

As for xhelps about the issues, I spoke to both Johnny and Iga and Kevlar about it quite in depth, oh, I dunno…about three years ago.

The change was akin, severity-wise, to playing a cyberpunk MOO for a couple years, then waking up one day to find that it had turned into a Sailor Moon/Hamtaro Crossover Tinysex MUSH.

I very well remember my first experience with memento'd ganger NPCs. I had ten of them piled on me at once with no warning/reason given - not even SIC chatter. May as well have made a script

;$life:Do_kill(player)

Something like that.

Back in the day, Judges COULD walk on Red, and players had to deal with players. I know it sounds completely crazy, but hey, it wasn't half bad.

You know what happened a while after the box was erected around the WJF?

Every fucking Judge quit playing the game.

I thought perhaps this would have been a clue that maybe, just maybe, the whole thing wasn't a very sound design decision.

I was the last to go because at the time, my tolerance for cow dung was higher. But I've been playing WoW for a while, so my tolerance has been completely depleted.

As for what could be done to make the game playable again? Well, I'd tell you what I want, but you wouldn't like it. It'd stir up way too much shit, and stagnant pools are the best kind, aren't they?

Quote: from Nemisis on 12:18 pm on Oct. 24, 2006[br]
There needs to be a balance where the WJF are not all powerful, and neither are the gangs/criminals.  I am assuming that is why the box was erected around the WJF, and has remained there.  

Therein lies the misconception - the whole Law/WJF thing is an IC justification for what we're doing, an RP hook, not a power per se.

Ignoring the actual plot/theme and looking at it from a mechanics point of view, a WJF player is no more than a player with a powerful gun, decent armour and a car. The downside being that the Judge player is forced to make enemies with pretty much all non-WJF combat-oriented players (of which, I am sure, there are more than two, which is the current Judge population to my knowledge).

The power is simply perceived. One might argue that we can command TERRA agents - however, the point is moot, because before memento'd NPCs were implemented to impede us, Judges went down to RED with a gun and some extra ammo and tried to make sense of it all. And those NPCs are weak and dumb as posts, last I saw. You had to tell them to attack the people swinging cricket bats at your head.

We had no NPCs, no automated SICID checks (we got Ops assistance when the GMs had time) and more often than not, no car, because Allandra liked to leave it on empty and we didn't have gas cans. Heck, I remember when Judges had to RIDE THE 'LEV because Ras' car code hadn't been released.

And we still had heaps more fun and things to do, because code is no substitute for human interaction.

When we joined the WJF, we were handed the gun and the superhero outfit and shoved out the door.

"Go do Law-y stuffs!"

And it was insane fun.

It's not a question of power but of a degree of freedom that makes the game playable.

It's not about some weird notion of "winning" or being "powerful", it's a question of being allowed to do what we're supposed to do, and get to RP.

Heck, three months into playing SD, less then a month after becoming a Judge, I got my first death. Three oldbies. I didn't even know how anything really worked at the time! Did I bitch about stats and attacking and coordination being too powerful? Did I request that these three be put in a box somewhere where they can't interfere? No freakin way, I tried to get 'em myself.

But I'm getting a bit long winded here.

My point: Let us keep the gun, the armour, and the car, and let us do our Judgey stuff. The rest is useless fluff, we don't need this crap. Judges did their job so well without it that we got boxed in :P

EDIT ZOMG: As for my idea, Nemisis, it would involve some IC messin' about, so I won't post it.

(Edited by Murphy at 10:33 pm on Oct. 24, 2006)

Quote: from Damarung on 3:51 am on Oct. 25, 2006[br]

Quote: from Nemisis on 12:18 pm on Oct. 24, 2006[br]Please don't assume what I would and would not like. �If you have an idea, lets hear it. �That's what the boards are for. �

I would also like to point out, that yes, SIC chips to identify you when you rent at a kiosk, or a door, and maybe that information should be applied in the admin logs. �Because for us it just tells us who is renting what, which can be misleading, because if that person has gotten a SIC rip, then they could have five diffrent rooms rented, and only 2 would show up with the ID or name tha was given.

I've already said that I think the Judges should be on RED. �I was just talking to Chaos about it actually. �It's something that should be discussed. �What are the benefits for the game, what are the disadvantages? �

1. �Yeah, don't make assumptions :D

2. �By your second paragraph you've already come up with a better defense than I could as to why we -should- be allowed to nab sleepers. �They just might not be where we thought they were. �And getting your chip ripped is an easy task if your not too ignorant to know who would be able to do that. *coughDocscough* �It just costs chyen, and that's a goal to strive for no?

3. �Benefits, judges could be judges again rather than panseys in the suit that never go anywhere and have to listen to PC's talk shit over the sic because they know they can. �Criminals would be apprehended and therefore we wouldn't have to land clone-death for every sentence because we might catch noobs too, then we can bring back the pimp-slap and the fine. �This alone gives new characters an idea on who to hate, where their RP is going to go, gives new players a way to react to the fact that they're dirty mixers and it will also make them think twice before openly messing about. �The negatives, people would of course complain about waking up in a cell. �But other than that I don't see how much balance is lost. �It's not like we're going to perm a bunch of people.

For me, playing a TERRA agent was funner than a judge, because as a TERRA agent I didn't have to deal with these rediculous restrictions. �I became a judge and was supposed to be getting more power, more authority, but suddenly I noticed I had less…and now my character can hardly defend himself from being fucked because you admin won't allow him to have said authority to take revenge or anything. �Can you explain how being a judge who can't do anything, whom gets fucked -all- the time is fun? �I like positive roleplay too you know? �Let half the noobs deal with the insurmountable odds he's up against with no way to fight back and I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't stay around to shoot at Aikao at any rate. �I've put up with enough of...nothing. �I've been posting ideas out the ass to try and kick some life back into the force but they all got shot down so jesus, maybe it's time we go back to being the way we -were-, or you can just make it so we can nab sleepers, or give us different kinds of judges as in my WJF Roletypes thread, or perhaps the M246 that doesn't technically exist..could be fixed? �Whatever you do, it needs to be done ASAP. �I dunno how much more of this "balance" I can take. �I see no balance, I see the WJF being wimps due to OOC bs, and because of that they're wimps ICly...are they supposed to be? �Nope...supposed to be badasses, so why aren't they fuckin badasses? �You tell me why I gotta roleplay being a pussy...so the noob Stan can mug someone and not get caught and fined, YAY FOR FUCKIN STAN EVERYONE! �He got to have fun...well guess I'll drive around GREEN now, maybe just idle in my car, nothin else I can do.

Oh…in a perfect world...:P

Beta.

Quote: from Damarung on 6:21 am on Oct. 25, 2006[br]I'm beyond tired of the Beta defense…when is this MOO going to actually open huh?

Eh, dude, this is the "bitch board", but I think you've put down your fair share of rantings/demands/etc etc allready. Not to sound like a dick, but it kinda comes off as "Gimme this this this that that and that or else".

Now as someone who played a Judge, it's not AS bad as you make it out to be. I can't go into that any further without divulging IC info.

Now, you can do stuff too, you just have to know how. Again, not gonna touch on IC info here.

Also, I do believe the whole "No Judges on RED" nonsense is too keep Oldie and eveb midbie characters from making you all look like incompetent fools, despite your special forces histories, and running off with loads of WJF gear. I think if you're gonna be a Judge be one. They should let you go down with a few uberfied Jakes. It seems the real problem with that though is the lack of uberfied PC Judges, and GM/Admins can't be on 24/7 to do what you need/want them to do.

Meh, or maybe it's just me.

Quote: from Biohazard on 6:28 am on Oct. 25, 2006[br]

Also, I do believe the whole "No Judges on RED" nonsense is too keep Oldie and eveb midbie characters from making you all look like incompetent fools, despite your special forces histories, and running off with loads of WJF gear.

As someone who was the most active Judge at the time this "no Judges on RED" policy was implemented, I must point out  that you're so hilariously wrong, that the undertakers of the world are laughing to tears.

At the time, Lucifer was gone, Moss was gone, Kikai/Gally was gone… who exactly WAS there to make  Allandra and I (the only active Judges at the time) "look like incompetent fools"?

It took a metric asston of you guys to even threaten the WJF in any significant manner. And THAT'S why the policy was implemented.

Quote: from Biohazard on 12:15 am on Oct. 26, 2006[br]If you're going to argue with that, fine. I've been told by admins and GMs and other players this reason when I played my first Judge a while back, then in the RP it was made apparant by superior officers when I played my recent Judge ( and just about any other players that have played a Judge within this two or so year time frame can back that this, if not the real reason, is a big factor in it)

I'll argue with it. :)

Either you (or the GM's you've spoken to) have misinterpreted the reason. They weren't added for the meta-gamish reasons of stats, skills and 'noobishness' of Judges. They were added for the purely IC reason that a lone law enforcement officer (today or in SD's setting) shouldn't realistically expect to wander round the worlds worst gang infested ghettos and slums like he owns the place totally unhindered.

Your reasons might be how it's explained and justified today, but it quite categorically was not a "big factor in it" when it was implemented.

You don't not go to red because the resident players will 'pwn' you and show up the WJF. You don't go because no matter what the movies say, one man, his badge and a gun doesn't go deep into enemy territory alone, win the day and take home the broads. NPC gangers were the way, albeit clumsy IMHO, to enforce this dynamic.

(Edited by Rastus2 at 6:18 am on Oct. 26, 2006)

We've got a few Judges now.  We've got a couple street Judges, an WJF-Ops person, and a medical staff, all composed of players.  This is good, because this will make things easier for them again.

For a while there, we only had a couple Judges who were not really skilled enough to go up against the criminal element of RED without NPC/GM assistance.  However, not to the fault of the player, whenever they went down they requested "backup backup backup!" which generally resulted in LOTS of NPC Judges coming down to the Mix, and having to be met with resistance from LOTS of gangers/criminals/whatever, or else completely overpowering whoever it was they were going after.  It was either unfair as hell, or it was alot of stress and work and fucking up for us admin.

So, to make things easier on us (I guess), and safer for the player Judges who would otherwise be killed over and over adn over again until they got fed up and quit, we simply made it alot rarer for them to get backup down there, and made it a sort of "at your own risk" situation..  which I guess is how it used to be.  Of course, the player Judges at that time weren't skilled enough, as I had mentioned, and got killed alot when they went down, and lost alot of WJF equipment.  The IC repercussions of this ended up with NPCs yelling at PCs and making them feel like crap..  which is unfortunate, but it makes sense I guess.

But now, hopefully things will be alot better.  We've got alot of people with high stats in the game now, TERRA Agents, Judges, Gangers, and other criminals too.  The Judges now have a whole team (of players!) they can use to bring down the thugs they go after, and the thugs have their own assets (or they don't, the poor sods).  But it all seems to be heading in a generally good direction as far as game balance is concerned..  It freaking took long enough.

So uh..  anybody feel otherwise, or have any thoughts or ideas about this?

As for the judge comment, yeah, we're movin along pretty quick I suppose.  In the case of an actual event where we're all logged on, we'd be dangerous as hell.  Heck...I even found out  my char isn't as weak as I previously assumed so alot of what I've been bitching about is pretty much void now.

I wasn't trying to compare in great detail of past judges by comparison to the new ones because hey, I never owned myself a judge back then.  It just felt all wrong before though, guess I stepped in at a bad time is all.

Quote: from Damarung on 12:42 pm on Nov. 6, 2006[br]

Quote: from InsaneRadical on 9:47 am on Nov. 5, 2006[br]I hope you're including yourself in "everyone", there.

Actually, I'm -excluding- myself.  I generally, as a -rule- to how I play, try to RP everything, including moments leading to my char's death, whether it's sacrificial or he's going after someone.  I always try to rp things before I leap into the fight.  Its very rare that I don't and I am positive I can say that.

Um.  Right.

Don't act all high and mighty, when I know for a fact that you've done what you're accusing everyone else of doing.

I'm a little bit mad with myself right now.

We'll leave it at that.