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Olbies abusing combat
You guys should know better.

Okay, so I want to give my 2 chyen about this topic and also vent a little.

This has happened to more than one of my characters, it’s already bad enough that almost every NPCs and his mother can kick your ass and most likely will do so, in the lifetime of your character.

I’ve seen several oldbies abusing combat, because there is no way that a fresh character (1-6 months) can stand against them. So they basically can drag you around and do crazy shit to your character in a very unrealistic fashion since they know OOCly that the can. It breaks immersion honestly, most often than not is uncalled for and doesn’t generally lead to rich RP for anyone.

Now even if I don’t like the above, it pales in comparison to olbies perming characters under very weak excuses. Oh, your character looked at mine funny? Guess what? I am killing your character and there is nothing that you can do about it, because the UA curve is so steep and the gap between characters power is so big, that is completely unbalanced. (I don’t even want to talk about players who do things so ridiculous and OOCly as stalking people outside Genetek.)

When I mention this, GMs usually tell something like: “Once your character is a year old or more, the gap is not so big and things balance out”. Well, that would sound great if it was easy for a character not to get killed so easily.

Dear olbies, the “theme” is already hard enough on new players to add you killing new characters under lame pretenses to show how much of a badass your character really are. If you want to prove that you’re a badass, please do it in a fashion that promotes RP for both parts and don’t kill the new characters.

All the time, I see people saying thing on OOC chat like “Oh, I wish there were more new players” and “We need all to vote so we can attract new players”. Well guess what? It is kind of a moot point, because if you bring new players and their characters get murdered by olbies for no good reason, then they are not going to want to stick around for very long to RP with anyone.

I keep hearing that the whole point of SD is to RP, well if you turn it into a Dark Souls simulator there is not going to be more new people to RP with. Seriously guys, as seasoned players you should know better and try to make the game more engaging and enjoyable for everyone.

Also I know this game has been around for ages and veteran players must be pretty stuck in their old ways, so I am not expecting my banter to change anything, but I just want to express that I believe there is a better way to things.

Hopefully new players will agree with this to an extent, because mindless killing PCs doesn’t seem okay, especially on a game that prides itself to be about RP and not hack and slash. Because when you are killing a PC, you’re taking a decision for the other player to end all the time and effort that he put into the game with that character, so that decision should not be made lightly.

That’s all, I am done. END OF BANTER.

Thanks for posting this. We've all been there at some point, and I guess I'll just say this: as an oldbie, you might (not a guarantee) wind up treating other new PCs like you were treated as a new PC (by oldbies).

So, if you are the sort of player/char that thrives on combat, you will think "hey, by fighting or threatening this new PC, I am helping making them into a better char, like so-and-so did with me".

Or, if like me, you just dodged any and all combat characters 'growing up', you now really don't get it when someone actually believes your threats, cause you have no intention or ability to follow through unless pushed to ICly, because that's just not how the oldbies you looked up to would have done it.

Mixed bag. We all handle it differently, please don't group. Also, realize that what you need/want may be 180 degrees out from what someone else needs/wants to develop their character IC....and a good oldbie will help them with that.

Sorry. I disagree.

I'm not even an oldbie.

Both of my first two main characters did exceptionally well living in the Mix. It's all about making connections with the right people. Using them as much as they want to use you.

My first main was not even a combat character. But he still could keep up with oldbies. Why? Social engineering. And at times that is the game here.

It's a lot on what and who you know that makes a lot of difference. Making allies. Finding people to use who will also use you and finding ways to keep a leverage.

I'm not going to go into IC details. But new people can play with old people very well as long as they understand the theme and understand that this game has IG consequences for your actions.

That's exacctly what I was going to say: It doesn't even take an oldbie.

Some character just a few days or couple of weeks old can own a character with 10 times the UE they have, if they have managed to RP their way into gear, cyberware, nanogens, friends, contacts, strings they can pull, et cetera.

So, yeah, it's all about RP. It is not out of -anybody's- reach, to be able to back up the shit they want to stir. Someone can have power without having one, two, three years' worth of UE. Someone who does have all that UE can be vulnerable.

Last thing:

Using an expression like 'abuse' tends to be alienating. You lost a round. Chin up, game on, and plot to win the next one. Get help. Build your character's arsenal. Don't 'wait for the UE' because it's completely unnecessary, if you can RP smart.

There's a lesson to be learned from these types of experiences. If you want to act and talk to people like you've got the bite to back up your bark, you better be prepared for the people you insult or threaten to take you seriously when they go after you. They are not responsible for your RP not being representative of your skills/stats. You are.

Either I failed to express myself properly or you guys are missing the point or both.

What I am talking about is not about a new character being able to compete against an older character. I’ve done it and know that it is possible, but what you know, who you know or what you have may be pointless in situation where an older character abuses combat (meta gaming that your character is new) to use you like a rag doll in a way that breaks immersion or straight out killing your character mindlessly.

@Lena: Even if RP is subjective or characters may have different motives, that doesn’t mean you should put yourself before other players and don’t consider them in the slightest.

@Cerberus: You clearly didn’t even bother to read anything I wrote and are still convinced this is just a “gripe”.

If a character with more strength than you whether it's 6 months old or 3 yrs old drags you around and you can't break the grapple, there's nothing Meta about that. It's the way the game works and you need to RP that out. That's roleplaying..

The only thing meta with that situation is you getting all disgruntle about it happening.

@Cerberus Again, your completely missing the point and making this about something that is not. Instead of actually hearing what I am saying.

Okay... So you are telling me this is about people abusing the system?

Okay let me make something clear. How do you even know they are an oldbie? Because out of chargen I can come out with a pretty setup character for combat and know of several new characters who gave a run for their money to older characters. My second main included.

Okay... So you are telling me this is about people abusing the system?

Okay let me make something clear. How do you even know they are an oldbie? Because out of chargen I can come out with a pretty setup character for combat and know of several new characters who gave a run for their money to older characters. My second main included.

Okay... So you are telling me this is about people abusing the system?

Okay let me make something clear. How do you even know they are an oldbie? Because out of chargen I can come out with a pretty setup character for combat and know of several new characters who gave a run for their money to older characters. My second main included.

Not to jump on the bandwagon here.. but having read the post i have threepoints.

point number 1.. Life is unfair, SD is unfair. However If an oldbie as you put it .. is abusing new players out of character or is otherwise detrimental to the retention of new players dont you think the GMs would have something to say about that.. also if they really are doing it.. even without GM intervention that means that Oldbie has lots of enemies for you to gang up on.

point number 2.. im no where near an oldbie.. but ive been around. ive been around as my character and i know my place in things.. do i attempt to go and take on every person in the mix in a stand up fight? no.. do i try and rattle the cage of everyone? no. why .. because im playing a character that is smarter than that.. im RP in character. now if i wanted to play a loud mouth character with a death wish? .. sure i would go and grief people and expect as a player to get my ass handed to me... but id go into that eyes open. With even a tiny bit of experience with SD.. if you roll out of chargen and super combat orientated, you should know that you are taking your life into your hands each time you go looking for a fight.. maybe you win.. maybe you die.. its live by the sword die by the sword. dont like, it.. play topside non combat..

final point.. In my experience of "oldbies" .. they have been around.. they have played this game and invested in it.. If you have any idea how long it takes to get to oldbie status then chances are you should respect the player . (not the character) but the player.. therefore have a little respect to believe that they are not going to grief new players because they want them to stick around..they by definition of being an oldbie have seen more of the game.. have seen the game when there was less and more players and have probably done a lot to help keep new players..

@wintermute I have to completely disagree, I don't think that seniority or staff status = automatic respect. In fact I think that assumption is completely wrong and gets people to get stuck into their old ways or disregard newer members of a community. Older players don’t necessarily know best.

What I am talking about is not just based on my own personal experience and that of my characters, but also what I’ve seen happen to other newer players by the hands of older characters.

Clarification: Anyway, maybe I should change (if I could edit my posts) olbies in the title for older characters or what not because apparently the notion of an olbie in this community is someone playing the game for 5+ years or something like that and that’s not what I meant.

Olpolok,

At the risk of getting a very emotionally-charge message in return, may I ask - what sort of response to this post were you hoping to get? From the player you were involved with, or from the GMs? What sort of an answer would have made you satisfied that your issue had been given due consideration? Not something that would have made you 'happy' necessarily...but what sort of process would you have been OK with? What way are you more likely to accept 'nothing will change in this situation' as acceptable?

Thanks.

Now even if I don’t like the above, it pales in comparison to olbies perming characters under very weak excuses. Oh, your character looked at mine funny? Guess what? I am killing your character and there is nothing that you can do about it, because the UA curve is so steep and the gap between characters power is so big, that is completely unbalanced. (I don’t even want to talk about players who do things so ridiculous and OOCly as stalking people outside Genetek.)

What I am talking about is not about a new character being able to compete against an older character. I’ve done it and know that it is possible, but what you know, who you know or what you have may be pointless in situation where an older character abuses combat (meta gaming that your character is new) to use you like a rag doll in a way that breaks immersion or straight out killing your character mindlessly.

So which one is it? Because you just posted on the first one that its not possible for a 'newbie' to compete with an 'oldbie' but then go on to say that you are aware a newbie -can- compete with an oldbie.

And again how do you even remotely tell they are oldbie? Because they beat you does not equate to an oldbie.

I don't see what is immersion breaking or OOC about someone who is bad ass in the game, acting like a bad ass and doing bad ass things until someone comes along and knocks them down a peg. The game isn't meant to have every person in it be equal in status (ICly) or stats.

Also to address the first point about the 'steep ue curve', that's what drugs and cyberware are for.

If you are going to RP a tough guy, expect characters to respect you RP and not pull their punches. To do anything else would be the immersion breaking un-IC thing to do.

He is just seeing one side of the coin. That curve is also pretty steep for characters to invest in them stat and skill wise.

It takes ever more increasing points to raise your stats.

Skill point cost rises as the skill rises.

This means a 'new' character has a chance to catch up because 'older' characters have to invest more to get -anywhere-.

Again I will say here what I have said before. Quit whining and chin up.

I've had characters that would lose every fight 100% of the time and they lasted over 8 years... They only died because I wanted to make a new character. Who isn't a combat character either, but to this time hasn't died either... Be it to NPCs or to PCs... Both of them RP heavily with every other players, have enemies and friends and also get into heated arguments... So I guess it is the difference on how you RP your character and what fights you pick...

@Olpolok

i didnt say blindly follow.. i was suggesting that you show some respect in your wording and attitude to Players and GMs alike that probably have and continue to contribute a hell of a lot to the game and community.

shit happens.. and i doubt very much that anyone was picking on you occly or abusing anything to get you.. sucks in the moment but you gotta let shit slid and figure that you dont see everything that happens so you cant begin to assume anything. It again boils down to faith. You either have faith in the Gms, Johnny and the community to police any sort of abuse or you dont..in which case maybe you need to find a new game... (which im not suggesting you do as every player is a loss that leaves).

As a matter of record I can confirm that there was some discussion on the GM side about this and I can confidently say there was no abuse of game-systems or any inappropriate OOC activity in regards to the scenarios referenced in this complaint.

So let's get that off the table. It's a slap in the face to everyone involved when people start accusing each other of 'cheating' or otherwise acting in an Meta OOC manner when there's no evidence to support the notion.

I think the OP is complaining about a lack of "motive", not ability. It sort of got lost in the rest of the rant about UE and how large the gap is, but I think that was the original point and they just failed to properly get it across.

More often than not when RP comes down to combat the 'motive' is lost to the dead person. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it doesn't mean they'll never find out either.

RP happens before and after and when it comes down to most combat situations, the surviving parties/witnesses get to decide what RP reaches the recently deceased. That is simply the way it works.

It sucks being the victim sometimes but a good part of the fun is trying to investigate your own death and pulling in favors and buying paydata to figure things out.

I have seen very few truly random and meaningless murders in my time as a GM I respect our player base for being really good about their motives.

I confirm that the player who was the 'killer' in the specific incident you're reacting to, Olpolok, was thoughtful and non-abusive enough to make a point of communicating with GMs about their plans before playing it out. I personally received this message and did not object.

There was NOTHING meta at all about the entire situation, other than your own expectation, Olpolok, that your character deserved some kind of OOC 'protection' from your character's own IC failure to recognize a plainly stated threat and take steps to avoid a problem.

@wintermute I never said anything about following blindly, I respectful and civil with everyone, which is more that I can say from other people. The system is human, hence it’s flawed so I see nothing wrong with expressing discontent about it and say there is room for improvement. I don’t see things in terms of black and white, sorry if that is perceived as disrupted by others.

@IssacF Sorry if I didn’t myself clear enough and again pardon my use of the term oldbie which is clearly means something different to most SD players. To be more clear, a greener character could managed to outsmart and out resource a more experienced older character, it could happen yes but is not the norm. Even then, if the older characters is the initiator of combat, it’s most likely that by raw power in most scenarios said older character will most often than not beat the greener character. So basically what I was trying to entailed, is that when that happens the outcome is pretty much decided before throwing the first punch and the other player knows this. In most cases it’s easy to tell what characters are newer than others, also there are a million people playing SD, so after being in the game for some months you can grasp this. I hopefully I’ve made more sense now.

@Lena Is this question research based? No matter, I’ll try answer anyway. I wasn’t hoping for any particular type of response, maybe I was hopefully that someone would touch base, give their opinion, agree, disagree, share their own experience, etc. This is not targeted to anyone in particular or at any one situation, not even my only my experience with my characters alone but with how I perceive the game and what I have witnessed happen to other players. I certainly expected staff members to take things more seriously and be more respectful, instead getting defensive, getting upset, twisting the subject, attacking me personally, disregarding my opinion, trying to censor me and making this topic about something that is not. In retrospect, maybe that is why other players aren’t more vocal on expression criticism towards the game. As an individual, I will never be willing to accept a “nothing will change situation”, that doesn’t mean I don’t fully expected it in this case. And thank you for chipping in.

@etc Yes, motive is partly important but not entirely since it can be subjective, like it was so eloquently said on OOC chat the other day “If my character is a psychopath, then I am RPing my character if I kill yours”. So motive is a really fussy area sadly as it is generating RP, which is basically playing out the consequences of actions. I was talking about older character forcing combat and abusing their power against newer character, for what I perceive as poor RP content, which breaks immersion, because sadly as realistic as we would like to pretend things are, it’s still a game.

@Staff You guys seemed to be convinced that this tread is about something that is not, I don’t feel keen in wasting energy to try to change your minds. I am just satisfied with generating a conversation, even if people have a different opinion than I and disagree with me. I plan on keep speaking my mind in the future, sorry if you don’t like it.

Also this post has gotten so detracted of what was originally about that I’ve lost interest in participating, because I can tell that is only going to get more and more derailed. So I’d rather stop now and save myself the trouble.

PS: I still think that enabling the edit/delete post options would be swell, even a preview post feature.

When the difference in character age is measured in meer months, I think you find the admin give little regard to cries of 'older' characters being able to abuse their abilities against newer characters.

If there's merit to anything here its that the slurry of commands that make up what to do give a significant advantage to players who've had a chance to use them more. I think this gets a 'no shit sherlock' in any game, be it Battlefield, COD or Sindome. So, my response is a big ole pile of 'meh'.

@IssacF Sorry if I didn’t myself clear enough and again pardon my use of the term oldbie which is clearly means something different to most SD players. To be more clear, a greener character could managed to outsmart and out resource a more experienced older character, it could happen yes but is not the norm. Even then, if the older characters is the initiator of combat, it’s most likely that by raw power in most scenarios said older character will most often than not beat the greener character. So basically what I was trying to entailed, is that when that happens the outcome is pretty much decided before throwing the first punch and the other player knows this. In most cases it’s easy to tell what characters are newer than others, also there are a million people playing SD, so after being in the game for some months you can grasp this. I hopefully I’ve made more sense now.

Again let me clarify something. And Imm putting IC here because you are not getting my message.

My first main was a psychotic non combat cowboy. He got on the good side of one particular character and started working as his informant. Then he was an extremely good liar. So he setup himself to get robbed. He then manipulated a ganger into buying him most of the shit he needed and teaching knife combat. With that done he would then use tactical ambush to slaughter the enemies of the gang and then use someone else to sell their shit back making lots of chyen and becoming valuable to the gang while he reported making money as a plant ganger and as an informant. He also got a corporate job while being an informant and a ganger. His only mistake was becoming a drug addict. And that was solely on him. With the drug dependency his lies began to break down and his psychosis grew.

And he was green as fuck. And he accomplished all that in just a few weeks.

So please don't tell me a greener character is unable to do this and that. Because my character brutally murdered older characters. And he was a green character.

I only just read this earlier today, however I wanted to comment on it as my character definitely meets the definition of 'oldbie' better than most.

>> I’ve seen several oldbies abusing combat, because there is no way that a fresh character (1-6 months) can stand against them. So they basically can drag you around and do crazy shit to your character in a very unrealistic fashion since they know OOCly that the can. It breaks immersion honestly, most often than not is uncalled for and doesn’t generally lead to rich RP for anyone.

I think perhaps your definition, and my definition of an oldbie might be different, however I wouldn't consider anyone who's been playing less than two years an oldbie (midbie perhaps for >1 year), I might even extend it out to significantly farther than that, but I've been playing the game for a damned long time.

How I RP my character is based on the many years of history that my character has had. Along with such a long standing character comes significant history that new players very much have the ability to abuse (from an IC point of view). I've been around through numerous changes to the combat code and when the UE Cap was introduced, making it more possible than ever to hand an oldbie has arse in many ways.

>> Now even if I don’t like the above, it pales in comparison to olbies perming characters under very weak excuses. Oh, your character looked at mine funny? Guess what? I am killing your character and there is nothing that you can do about it, because the UA curve is so steep and the gap between characters power is so big, that is completely unbalanced. (I don’t even want to talk about players who do things so ridiculous and OOCly as stalking people outside Genetek.)

Oldbies generally (which you can read as, pretty much all the time) don't perm characters with no justification. If a player just starts killing newer players willy nilly with no IC justification, they'll get smacked down. Hard. It's not good for oldbies to bitchslap newbies all over the place until they die from being so young.

As very experienced combat characters, however, they wouldn't generally take shit I imagine. If I was to walk into a bikie(biker?) bar and start giving them shit about how I was a badass, I'd expect to get the shit kicked out of me - which is kind of like, half the reason I don't.

>> Dear olbies, the “theme” is already hard enough on new players to add you killing new characters under lame pretenses to show how much of a badass your character really are. If you want to prove that you’re a badass, please do it in a fashion that promotes RP for both parts and don’t kill the new characters.

Who says their isn't RP on either side of your death. The RP doesn't have to involve you, to be perfectly blunt however there's a very specific reason why combat in the moment typically happens without warning and with very large force from one side to the other. It's because it's how the combat system on Sindome works.

>>All the time, I see people saying thing on OOC chat like “Oh, I wish there were more new players” and “We need all to vote so we can attract new players”. Well guess what? It is kind of a moot point, because if you bring new players and their characters get murdered by olbies for no good reason, then they are not going to want to stick around for very long to RP with anyone.

You know how an oldbie is typically rewarded (and yet all of the players with characters who I'd consider 'oldbies') when they try and help new players? Either their character ends up financially out, or the new character gets bored, perms their character to reroll and then they've got to deal with the IC fallout from it. I myself do this because I want more new people to find, and play Sindome.

>>Seriously guys, as seasoned players you should know better and try to make the game more engaging and enjoyable for everyone.

If giving you a free pass for acting outside of your characters stats is considered to be more engaging and enjoyable for everyone well sorry, you're always going to either see me the player, or my character as a dickhead at some point. Nobody gets an entirely free pass for acting outside of their stats.

>>Hopefully new players will agree with this to an extent, because mindless killing PCs doesn’t seem okay, especially on a game that prides itself to be about RP and not hack and slash. Because when you are killing a PC, you’re taking a decision for the other player to end all the time and effort that he put into the game with that character, so that decision should not be made lightly.

No, as a player, I'm deciding that it's appropriate for my character to either try to kill, or not to kill yours. I'm not going to make a decision with regards to how my character acts, based on the fact that you've invested alot of time into your character. I as a player, however may decide to make my character act like less of a dick if I think it would help RP.

I'm truly sorry that you feel that new players are being victimised by Oldbies, but I simply don't agree with your assessment of the situation and with all respect, I will continue to help new players in line with whatever is appropriate for my character, despite having no obligation whatsoever to do so.

That was very nicely put Gerik.

At any rate I know for a fact green characters straight out of chargen and a couple of weeks only can be very dangerous. My second main was pretty dangerous in a few weeks time.

I still say that you are blowing things out of proportion.

The UE curve older players are subjected too allows newer players to catch up or at least get closer in a month or two if they are specced. So it is easier to just come out with only two to three skills and spec those out. In a short time a green player can become highly effective.

My other point is I have not had an issue were an older player just for kicks would abuse the combat system. I did have a situation were an older player RP'd beating the shit out of my character. And I can sympathasize. But it was done once as a warning. And it was an amazing RP experience. although I did get frustrated I got killed. It happens. We get attached to our characters. And it happens. You know what I did? I got my character combat instruction and challenged this person to a respecg match even knowing I would lose. I was complimented on having 'balls'. So how is it that it is difficult for you to do the same? You already stated a new character -can- compete with an older character. And building an aresrnal of contacts and allies is not insurmountable. It takes time and effort. It does. But it can and had been done.

I have to admit that with my first character I definitely felt "abused", I had made a non-combat character that was very clearly IC not a combat character but they had a lot of bark (not so much in the threatening department but just didn't know when to shut their mouth). I got killed... -alot-... even when I would attempt to do things to make myself more presentable as someone to be taken advantage of instead of killed off I was still killed repeatedly. It got so bad so fast that I dug a whole so deep I pushed my character to suicide by the very thing that was always getting them killed anyways.

Sometimes the RP was fun, sometimes I saw exactly where the death was coming from, but a lot of the time it felt very random to me. I would not however trade in those experiences for anything because, because of that character I learned a lot about how Sindome works.

On the note of "oldbies" helping newbies out: Like Gerik said, it sucks sometimes. I've been burnt by newbies disappearing or rerolling, to the point that even though I am in no way an "oldbie" I've already grown jaded to helping Immigrants out. I used to reach out to them the first couple days they were in Withmore. Now I wait two or three weeks of them being noticeably online before I approach them and try to include them.

And now a giant props to Gerik: He's the only legimate oldbie I know I've interacted with and he's always been awesome. Not nice, but awesome. RP was always to be had, I only know a slight amount of his character's history that is "public knowledge" ICly and the experiences I've had with him IC and I think he as a player does it right. He doesn't pull his punches but if he can do something other than punch he will do it. Even if he has to punch he makes it "fun", engaging.

I would like to see however a shift in death in Sindome. Being able to kill someone is one thing, but being able to threaten that death and force people to do your bidding is another and I haven't really seen it all that much on Sindome. That is something that I actually wanted with my first character here, and it never went that way, it just went all the way to 'You're dead'. "You're gonna get me dis" 'No I'm not' "You're dead". Not *beat down, tie up* "You sure you dun wanna get dat for me? Cause I got all sortsa ways to make you wish I just killed yah."

This is an older topic now but I finally feel I have enough experience to comment.

I wish people would RP during killing and death more. I wish beating someone half to death and letting them crawl away with the lesson were common. If my character is a friend of a a character that your character wants, use my character instead of killing my character. Torture, kidnap, blackmail, whatever. I know it is hard as hell to RP during combat because the combat is automated and the only people killing my character are much better so it's fast...but try? Dying is going to happen but, it has been some of the least satisfying RP to date. When I'm able to type out three lines and my attacker just...let's the automated system take care of me. This brings me to wishing combat was manual turn based and not automated.

And, please don't take my comment to be me saying I'm some death RP king. I am learning to add more RP to my combat situations. I'm still a little freaked out by how quick everything ends and how fast I have to type along with my other combat actions like fleeing or changing posture.

Stop paragraphing. Press the damn enter key after each sentence and don't make run ons. You might get something out then. Paragraphing will never work during Sindome combat.

Lol Johnny. I don't paragraph during combat. Or, most situations. I try to get a nice concise sentence out.

It's understandable to wish for more RP during death-scenes. It is. It's something I can sympathize with.

However, this isn't always what the situation and the PCs involved call for. Some PCs just want you dead before you can scream to TERRA/WJF/Buddha, regardless of your OOC wants.

That said, I think that death is always one of the worst resolutions to conflict. There are vastly more interesting roads to go down. The problem there is, PCs who receive these 'lessons' and are allowed to live with them exceedingly often turn around and rebel against the character who took mercy on them, causing them a great deal of fall-out. When these things happen a few times, it's easy to feel scorned and feel like the sure-fire thing is the best way to control the situation.

I've had situations where my PCs have killed a PC in the past where I might have not gone for something so final if it were not for the actions of that PC. Sometimes it makes good sense for a PC to be cowardly or fleeting, but often characters can make a complete turn-around and act in ways which feel OOC to avoid conflict.

There have been times where I've had PCs @ooc or literally use the hide command the moment I walk on the block, in disguise, in an area with ambient pop. In these times I'm usually not intent on killing them, but potentially roughing them up and most certainly speaking and RPing with them. It gets to the point where I'm just going to settle with killing you when you're going out of your way to resolve the situation with some other RP.

Sometimes it's just the luck of the City, though. You find yourself in a situation, that might not even be in your PCs control, or your PCs fault, but perhaps the fault of an associate, and when those concerned get ahold of you, they're gonna want you dead. Those are the breaks.

I definitely prefer to let the RP go in a more interesting direction if a PC hasn't crossed that threshold where death is what makes the best fit for the situation. You've got to be willing to RP with me, though.

s/going out of your way to resolve the situation with some other RP/going out of your way NOT to resolve the situation with some other RP

To elaborate, in my experience people are more willing to give you a shot if you show that you're willing to take your licks.

I play antagonistic characters. Which isn't to say I play 'bad guys'. I play characters that antagonize other characters and NPCs. My PCs do things that I know aren't safe things to do and get on the wrong sides of entities that I know are out of my league OOCly. I've taken my licks plenty of times. Sure, there are a few times where my PCs have gotten off far more lightly than I think they deserved, but I've been on both sides of the death fence and seen multiple angles of the 'getting to RP during would-be-death scenes' thing. I've gotten characters killed because I keep doing something that I know will OOC get me killed, but it's IC.

I've been given plenty of chances where I might have died at the hands of others. I think there's a reason for that. I'm prepared to grovel, beg, get humble real fast, but ultimately I'm prepared to work through conflict with somebody who could be an assailant. Since I've been here I'm seeing a lot of something different. I've been seeing a lot of players who are willing to play characters who will step on every toe they come across, but when their ticket comes up, they stick their heads in the dirt and try to move on in such a way that they don't have to answer for what they've done.

... Again. You can play a coward. You can play somebody who is dirty, dishonorable... Whatever the fuck. I don't think this is simply an IC attitude, though. It resonates as an OOC attitude. Actions I've seen taken by such players (see above: ducking @ooc, instahiding despite ambient pop, disguse, etc.) correlate with my belief that there's a real OOC factor.

When you get on the wrong side of somebody in Sindome, fucking own it. Be prepared to RP with that party, or don't be surprised when you get killed but didn't 'get a chance to RP'. It seems to me that most of the time people are upset over being killed and not 'getting to RP', they had days, weeks or months to fix their IC dispute and made the OOC decision to avoid the ingame situation.

I'm not saying this is always the case. Sindome can be brutal. There are unjust deaths. There are murders which are, by all means, sudden and leave little room to RP. I certainly don't think that this should NEVER be the case, but I think that there are infinitely more interesting options. Clone death isn't exciting conflict by itself (though good stories can result in clone death). Straight up loss in any form isn't exciting conflict in itself (see previous). But if you've done a wrong, you have to be prepared to work with your assailant, just as the assailant has to be prepared to work with you.

I hope I haven't crossed any OOC bounds. I'm trying to be as vaguely as humanely possible whilst providing a clear enough backdrop to illustrate my points.

people are more willing to give you a shot if you show that you're willing to take your licks.

I'm just going to drop a slight change of subject in, and point out that this goes for not just oldbies or any player who's capable of pwning yours (Ironically, it isn't even an oldbie AT ALL most of the time) but it goes for GMs too.

You will give more, better and funner RP if you be a sport about how harsh and fast combat is and come out the other side with a good player attitude, ready to RP on, and a bad character attitude, ready to scratch and scrape for the resources and allies they need to strike back.

Yes, I said "give". This is what you should be concerned about - not whether other players are stroking you, but, that the quality and volume of the RP you get are magnified and multiplied by the RP you give.

Come to think of it, I could go into great depth about the subject (and have already taken up several posts). I've seen some really weird behavior around death that I'd love to address, if people are interested in me writing a standalone thread on the topic.

To close, something I'd like to say is, I find it difficult to swallow when some PCs are looking down the barrel and seem to be prepared to laugh in the face of death and bite the bullet (which somewhat unfortunately shoots down much RP which could lead to your survival right away). I know that some players will defend this as being a part of their character, but when many of the actions of your character have proved to the contrary, that they're far from the hardened badass they seem to become five minutes before dying, then you'll have to excuse me for saying that I'm not buying it. ... And this can and WILL get you killed. There's no shame in having your character be afraid of death. Do what's consistent to your character. It'll get you out alive more often than doing a heel-turn will.

there's actually already a couple of different threads on the topic of "weird behavior around death", they're in this same forum area (Game Problems And Complaints).

I'd LOVE for more players to post in there about what "weird behavior around death" does for their immersion and gameplay/roleplaying experience.

They're titled "Death In Sindome", and they're recent, so they're near the top of http://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/.