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The economy

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Ok folks, Lujan's post under oldbies mentioned problems with the economy. �As that has been a frequently mentioned complaint, this thread will be for:

Discussion of the enconomy
Reasonable suggestions for improving it

No, giving your character, another character, or any group of characters 1,000,000 chyen is not reasonable … ;)

Here is the relevant portion of my reply to Lujan.

------

There has been much effort of late to give the economy a boost. �You'd probably be surprised if I told you how much chyen I've personally pumped into the economy 1-5k at a time, and the amount of RP that has been generated as a result. �And others have been doing the same.

And I believe we've begun to see some results.

New characters haven't been cube crawling anywhere near as much as they have in the past. �Why? �two reasons:

First, they know that there is chyen to be made (and good RP to be had) just being out on the streets. �Some of these characters have even become ambitious enough to *gasp* go -looking- for the people they know have work.

Second, they can now afford a clone, and update more frequently, so they have less fear of dying.

When you get people out of thier cubes and on the streets, RP ensues.

As RP progresses, contacts are made, and conflict eventually occurs.

As contacts are made, and conflict occurs, business is done.

In addition.

There are many more (coded) jobs available now than ever before.

I can think of at least three PCs have started (and one or two more that are in the process of starting) thier own businesses and in some cases have hired other characters, and they're out there RPing thier asses off to get business.

To everyone who reads this, if it is IC for your character to do so, -support player run businesses-, PLEASE!

Whether the economy is poor or not, is moot. �What is important, is that it is improving, and will continue to improve.

------

Ok folks, let's hear -your- thoughts.

By Jinkorei at Jul 13, 2003, 6:47 AM | 0
How about 999,999 chyen?
By Hirononbu at Jul 13, 2003, 8:28 AM | 0
open up acme courier, It's just sitting there, and offer runs out of there.  or, start a forum (or use this one) to ask for Ideas for new jobs.  add one or two of them.  

I have noticed new jobs, but one more obvious "noob" one can't hurt, everyone hates SHI and it's barely worth going there (yes I know its a last resort) anyway.

mix in a couple random items at the markets, that aren't redily avaliable, alot of people sell their crap there and that's all you can get,  maybe a gun or somethig, dice maybe (just and example I'm not completely familiar with all thats avaliable) that may inspire more shopping there.

work on that 'boutique' or whatever with lots of specality stores on blue (once again stuff you can't get elsewhere maybe cigars, more clothes, whatever)then fix the cabs so It's easier to get there.

cyberware will start a whole new black market demand when it's released (Iknow this one has been mentioned other places so that's all I'll say about it)


make it easier to start your own business (maybe change the marketor make a new one that  allows booths?) maybe even automated ones like candy machine style so you don't have to attend them, then rent them.

maybe some aspiring entrapurner could reopen slys' as a fight bar where you can fight in a ring with rules, but without the worry of being picked up by the increasing numbers of TERRA on red. charge to fight, or just allow gambling.or maybe just some bar on red with video games.  (my char don't have the resources)

ok I'll stop my brainstorming here.


By Jotun at Jul 14, 2003, 9:22 AM | 0
Damn it, people have been reading my mind again, haven't they?  I had the same idea about Sly's Place with a previous character.  Never got anywhere.  Yeah, I agree with a lot of that.  The market needs some serious cleaning out.  Get rid of the packs of cigarettes with one or 2 smokes left in them, shit like that.  Hell, if it's too tedious, I'll do it.  And making some of the new jobs more obvious might be nice.  Do some other sutff too like drop huge amounts of money from the sky as my character is walking through.  Give me big ass weapons and maxed out stats/skills.  And an zrmy of loyal followers, preferably zombies, wouldn't hurt.  Put some items out there that will be coveted by many people, even though there's only one or two.  Get people figuring out ways to get it because they want it but someone else isn't just gonna give it to them.  Okay, so some of that was serious, some wasn't.  I'm sure you can tell the difference.

(Edited by Hirononbu at 9:52 am on July 14, 2003)

By Hirononbu at Jul 14, 2003, 9:43 AM | 0
yeah paying 120-200 for a pack of cigarettes or six pack with one in it is lame, (as if my char couldn't tell before he bought it)  I've also seen e-prints (yeah like I'm gonna spend 500 and maybe it will have paper) as well as batteries.  that I wouldn't touch because I can't tell if their empty, dead, whatever. maybe you should be able to "exam" or "look" or whatever the item before you buy it, that's not unreasonable.  most "lack market" transactions I've participated in involved me "checking out" said item if even just for a min or two.

By Jotun at Jul 14, 2003, 10:10 AM | 0
Quote: from Jotun on 1:10 pm on July 14, 2003[br]�that I wouldn't touch because I can't tell if their empty, dead, whatever. maybe you should be able to "exam" or "look" or whatever the item before you buy it, that's not unreasonable. �

The command is already there, and you should know it by now.

Appraise.

Simple.

By Murphy at Jul 14, 2003, 2:19 PM | 0
hmm.

yes,  I guess I shoud have known that by now. thanks

but that doesn't change the fact that nobody will buy this crap and it'll just stay there to be rummaged through.

*walks away head down and red faced*

By Jotun at Jul 14, 2003, 3:14 PM | 0
As Murphy addressed the last point (thanks Murphy), I'll try to address the others as best I can.

Noob jobs (Bruce, SHI) are just that. �Jobs for Noobs. �Another place where a new character can go and -safely- make chyen while it is a way to pad your pockets it really doesn't doesn't add to RP the way the RP generating jobs I spoke of earlier do.

There are many items available in the marketplace aside from that which characters sell to the markets. �However, the intent of the market is to give players a place to sell thier excess stuff, so that the moo doesn't become bloated, fat and slow. �You want something that's not in a market or other store? �Find someone who has it, and buy/steal it. �That's the CP way.

Blue is the cream of the crop, the top of the heap, the richest of the richest of the rich. �Do you really think that they're going to allow anyone from RED up there?

It has -never- been easier to start your own business than it is now. �You don't need a booth, you don't need a store, just -do- it.

Could the market use some cleaning out? �Probably. �Until then, (or Johnny gives the markets some code love) let the buyer beware. ;)

The real question I have is, what can we as admin do to encourage character to character commerce?

(Edited by Jinkorei at 7:28 pm on July 14, 2003)

By Jinkorei at Jul 14, 2003, 4:12 PM | 0
Yeah, it's definitely improving.  I like it.
By Hirononbu at Jul 15, 2003, 8:27 PM | 0
Noob jobs (Bruce, SHI) are just that. �Jobs for Noobs. �Another place where a new character can go and -safely- make chyen while it is a way to pad your pockets it really doesn't doesn't add to RP the way the RP generating jobs I spoke of earlier do.

this would however generate more chasflow which will inevadibly be spent somewhere, thereby improving commerce.(though maybe the job directly may not produce rp. �however bruces has been a starting place for a plot or two I've seen)

There are many items available in the marketplace aside from that which characters sell to the markets. �However, the intent of the market is to give players a place to sell thier excess stuff, so that the moo doesn't become bloated, fat and slow. �You want something that's not in a market or other store? �Find someone who has it, and buy/steal it. �That's the CP way.

though I have done this multiple times. �If someone has some "unique" item chances are they want this item and therefore will not make it evident that they have it. �and even if they don't want it there is a decent possibility that you and this other person may NEVER �log in at the same time (depending on how much either of you play, not a prob for me but some chars. who auctially have a job, and or school.) I know you are going to say it is more likely you will find eachother, but the fact remains that this is a possible outcome.

By Jotun at Jul 16, 2003, 1:11 AM | 0
Are there no NLM mail accounts?

No couriers?

No way to arrange business from two people who never meet face to face?

The rare items you speak of, are just that, rare. �And they're that way, for a reason, supply and demand and value.

If someone has a rare(er) item, and they don't want to sell it, well, how does it work in real life?

You either ..

A) �Advertise your ass off that you're looking for the items in hopes that others have it and are looking to sell it.

B) �Use people you know to keep an eye out for the item (a form of advertising, I suppose)

C) �Offer more money to the person you know has it

D) �Do some combination of A, B and C .

Why would Whitmore be any different?

And while more noob jobs would put more chyen in people's pockets, the question remains, would they use that to buy (or steal) items and service from other characters?

Coded sources of income should be thought of as a -secondary- income source.

Unfortuantely, I can't find a very old, and highly insparational post (by I believe either Stonemonk or Iga), that contained a huge list of things that characters -can- do (other than coded jobs) for chyen that require -no- admin assistance, encourage PC to PC commerce and can create a -ton- of RP.

If anyone who remebers that post can find it, please link, or add to it.

By Jinkorei at Jul 16, 2003, 5:59 AM | 0
my char. was recently blacklisted by bruce and since I've made much more money than I previously did working for him.  so trust me I understand how to make money without coded jobs.  but I haven't always, and I've noticed people who struggle with it now and again (including me)  that's why I made the suggestions.  
By Jotun at Jul 16, 2003, 7:26 AM | 0
I hate to burst the bubble, but Bruce will -never- be though of a secondary income generating device when, unless I'm employed by a corporation (Which, if I remember correctly, corpies get punished financially for -being- corpies based on the wages they earn, unless they're judges. Or Bruce is restricted, like how KP/Janya is in CS, after you earn x amount, they blacklist you.

But if that was to happen, there would need to be two more (presumably less then legal) job NPCs for players to work for, I personally have never really seen alot of money change hands between players -unless- the side paying, is -super–rich (the generation of player before mine, ordinarily), and as such, doesn't give a shit if they lose 5k here, or 5k there.

As an example: When Gerik was well-off, he dropped a substantial amount of chyen into one particular player, can't say whom, would break the IC/OOC barrier thingy. The -one- and -only- reason for this was because I liked his/her/its RP.

Now I remember vaguely a system a while back (which if I remember correctly, got raped stupid, by myself too, back in actual Lujans days) It involved delivery of weaponry mostly to an undergound supplier, the payrate was fuxed though, so I'd make some 10-25k/delivery (Reason why it was removed), If this sort of thing could be re-added, only modified, so that such rediculous payouts -didn't- happen, and you could only do it once daily or even once a week (enough to pay for a cube like).

Now, also, I'm not sure whether SD currently has a fixer again (Too far out of the IC loop for so long), but there has to be one if there's not, I don't mean in reference to weapons (probably that too though), but one whom could get basically all of the legal stuff in the game that 'fell off the back of a truck', but they'd still make a reasonable margin, while being able to undercut the stores themselves.

The undercuting is reasonable, because a fixer doesn't have to pay rent on a storefront, and isn't bogging themselves down with the one product.
If this player could be trusted to funnel alot of this money (and it was IC to do so), back into other IC projects in the MOO, you'd find alot more money moving around between the player-base.

That said, if you guys (meaning current players), don't hold off until said person is online to buy off of them, the system won't work, immaterial of how low they can get the stock for.

I'll probably think of more later, but I'm fuxored right now, it's 2am, so I'm going to bed.

--Robert

By Lujan at Jul 16, 2003, 8:55 AM | 0
Only thing I can find close is this, but I'm too knackered to read it:
http://www.sindome.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=205
By Lujan at Jul 16, 2003, 9:14 AM | 0
I unfortunately cannot comment on anything that's been discussed in much detail..  but..

The fixer idea is a good one.

There is definately a -lot- of GM intervention required once your character has reached what I guess you could call his or her "prime."  Resources, contacts.  All are GM-puppetted.  Regardless of who you're dealing with there's either a GM involved somewhere, or some player is simply fucking incredible with stealing/trading.

As for cashflow, that is -definately- a problem.  And with the biz some characters are in, you have to watch out for the ambient population as well.  If a GM is around and someone gets killed by another person, or someone hands a gun to someone, or some other such naughty thing takes place, they will RP the ambient population as witnessing the crime.

Sometimes this makes things a tad impossible to accomplish, especially if there's no real way to get to someone in a private place, either because 1) You want to kill them or 2) They don't trust you, because they think you might kill them.  Unless you hired a bunch of people to get them where you want them, or somehow miraculously gained their trust (even though they really ICly have no reason -not- to trust you)..  But, alas, you need money first!  And that is where the circle begins anew.

I'm sure there are plenty of other problems out there similar to this.  People just have to speak up and talk about them.  Of course it's very difficult to do without crossing IC/OOC boundaries.  :\

Hope I wasn't too vague.  Or didn't reveal too much.  Fuckles, this is hard to discuss.

By Aikao at Jul 18, 2003, 7:57 PM | 0
Quote: from Aikao on 10:57 pm on July 18, 2003[br] �If a GM is around and someone gets killed by another person, or someone hands a gun to someone, or some other such naughty thing takes place, they will RP the ambient population as witnessing the crime.

Not necessarily. And if they do, well, the info usually doesn't come to us WJF players. In fact, I can count on my fingers the number of times inter-player combat or criminal activities was reported to Judge players by NPCs/GMs.

The simple solution to this is not doing it somewhere behind closed doors, necessarily, but somewhere without ambient population (sewers? back alleys? abandoned garages? In the corridors of a dirty stinky tenement?). You don't need to get them to follow you anywhere…you can follow them. Or be waiting for 'em somewhere you know they'll pass through. Study your enemy. Learn his or her habits, then use that knowledge.

Change your MO, also. Most of the times we've gotten NPC tip offs is when someone is doing the same thing over and over in the same way in the same area. Yeah, someone's gonna notice. And someone's eventually gonna decide to call the fuzz. It happens.

Another tip is to not write "I KILLED (PERSON)" on your forehead (figuratively speaking). You don't need to brag to get a rep, it comes on its own. People don't need to know that you did something, they have to suspect you did. Gets 'em talking. It's like the telephone game - you kill a few people the right way and pretty soon rumours are flying around about you offing ten gangers all at once.

By Murphy at Jul 18, 2003, 10:33 PM | 0
I agree completely, Murphy.

However, the main problem I was addressing was the thing with contacts, etc.  There has to be some GM involvement.  And yes, I know you guys are overworked as hell (and no offense, but I personally don't trust many of you…  that'll come with time), but overworked already  or not, there's still plenty more to do.  :P

BUT...  Players need to learn to be more friggin' patient.  I mean for crap's sake..  Stop bitching already.  If they say shit's getting done, just take it as that.  You don't know what they have to do to get whatever it is you want done.  And you don't know who else is in front of the "bitching line", asking for something else.

First come, first serve is a common phrase that I believe makes sense here.

Anywho..  I think that's all I have to say about that..  *scratches his head and wanders off*

By Aikao at Jul 26, 2003, 2:09 PM | 0
I actually have an Idea about spreading money thru red, but I need to talk to a bunch of people ICly and OOCly (Jman and Kev) so we can arrange things to work about…
By Xeethot at Aug 6, 2003, 7:01 AM | 0
I just thought I'd bring this topic back around.  Now, I know the economy seems to be doing a lot better recently, at least from where I'm sitting, but I know I'm no longer a newb and have somethings established.  What's everybody else think about the economy?  Also, the whole rp/player made jobs things seems to have picked up.  I've seen some major plots happening with minimal gm intervention.
By Hirononbu at Jun 28, 2004, 10:41 AM | 0
I've seen alot of PC's (including myself) try hard to spread the wealth.  Unfortunately my char isn't in a place where he can anymore.  Point being= stuff's getting better, but has a way to go.
By Jotun at Jun 28, 2004, 12:38 PM | 0
I've seen it get better since I first started playing, and It's going better everyday.   Just got to remember that you need not do things yourself.  When you can pay someone else to do it for you!  
By Nemisis at Jun 28, 2004, 7:56 PM | 0
Just got to remember that you need not do things yourself.  When you can pay someone else to do it for you!  

Yeah, that's part of the problem because alot of charcters can't afford to do that.   And some of the ones that can, don't.  

By Jotun at Jun 29, 2004, 3:11 PM | 0
Well, if you can't afford to pay someone to do it for you, get a job from someone who is paying people to do it until you can afford to pay someone else to do it for you.

*nods*

Clear as mud…

By Iga at Jun 29, 2004, 3:13 PM | 0
So, like, if I want someone dead, I pay the Goat Ninja to do it but if he wants someone dead, he hires me?  Like that Iga?
By Hirononbu at Jun 30, 2004, 6:09 AM | 0
No.

If you want someone dead and can afford to pay goat ninja, you pay goat ninja.

If you want someone dead and can't afford to pay goat ninja's insane prices (he is the best you know) then you don't pay to have someone whacked. You either:

1) Whack them yourself
2) Find a cheaper assassin (I hear chicken ninja's prices are good…)
3) Save up for a while
4) Trick goat ninja into killing someone, then blame the unpaid bill on that other chummer you hate...

By Iga at Jun 30, 2004, 7:55 AM | 0
Oh, well, your whole previous statement had a lot of pronouns in it…just couldn't quite get me head around it. �I like #4, seems the cheapest and most effective, though probably more difficult. �Now all I need is someone to kill.

Oh, but how about option number 5:  Get a gang together, paying them as needed and then beat down the poor sob.

(Edited by Hirononbu at 9:08 am on June 30, 2004)

By Hirononbu at Jun 30, 2004, 9:07 AM | 0
Gang beatings are like Christmas: You just keep giving till it hurts.
By Iga at Jun 30, 2004, 10:09 AM | 0
We should have landlords available and within reach. There are a lot of places on RED that are closed/out of business/vacant and in other levels of the city there are shops with NPC cashiers and empty stacks/stands/walls/shelves.

I for one can think of 3 buildings on RED that I would personally want my hands on. And I've heard a lot of players ICly interested into renting/aquiring a building/office/garage/shop/etc…

Could we have someone put in charge of that, so we can all start renting stuff?

There are lots of new characters that aren't ninjas/samurais/etc and that need a place to operate their business even if its a dusty office on a building marked for demolition.

By Xeethot at Aug 13, 2004, 8:12 AM | 0
Oh yeah. And vending machines… I would love those.
By Xeethot at Aug 13, 2004, 8:20 AM | 0
The landlord for 83% of RED is either the Bank or a Corporation. 11% is owned by criminal syndicates. 6% is unowned or squatters. These are official figures calculated by the I.G.A. Statistics Group, Inc. Providing random statistical and census analysis since 2072!

*nods*

Empty racks?! Please send me an email with the locations of the empty stores. That is a typo/stocking issue…I'll flit about today and restock things back up to a decent level.

As to aquiring land/property...well...it is a sticky issue. See, property is expensive in Withmore. Real Estate isn't something that you mixers can even dream of affording. In fact, it isn't something a corpie can dream of affording.

You must realize that there is the population of Great Brittian inside the dome. In a large arcology structure that is roughly 2km across and 1.5km tall. Give or take. Withmore is stacked, layered like a cake so there is more land available than the physical footprint of the structure would take up. But even with that...you are talking a lot of people in a small area. In situations like that, property becomes extreamely valuable. You would be looking at prices based in square centimetres of space. I would imagine it would be something like 200c/square centimetre on RED, then climb from there. Blue you would be looking at upwards of 5000c/square centimetre.

So, say you want to 'buy' a building. It is a single story affair on Red. Say, for example, Olga's Fallout Shop. The shop itself is pretty small. Only 5 metres by 10 metres in size, no back room or storage. That is 500 by 1000 centimetres, or 500,000 square centimetres. Now, Olga's is on Fuller, one of the busiest streets on Red. So prices would be higher due to comercial traffic. Lets say it was 350c/square centimetre. That means to purchase Olga's Fallout Shop would cost, if we do a realistic calculation, a whopping
175,000,000 chyen.

Now, I hear you all yelling 'NO WAY!' and 'THAT IS INSANE!'.

I point you to a real world example of land prices that are nuts like this.

Hong Kong. In Hong Kong you can expect to pay by the square inch for land. A 2700 square foot appartment (very large for Hong Kong) will run you around 27 million dollars.

And Hong Kong is a lot BIGGER than Withmore, with FEWER people living there per square foot. So, if you are running about thinking that 'Olga' owns the building 'Olga's' is in, you are probably wrong in the head. She can probably barely make her lease payments. Hell, we even have to skew the rents on hotels and appartments just so that they are useable.

All this being said, we do not have a system in place for dealing with lease and rental property. Why? Because for 99% of players, there is -NO- way they can support a business and lease. Why? Because the Corporations hate you. Don't blame the admin, don't blame your fellow people on RED. Blame Seador Krupp. Blame Withmore Savings and Loan. Blame Skywatch.

If you want to do business, here is a novel idea: Street Merchants!

Yes! You can wander about the streets yelling 'Drugs! Drugs! Best mRc in the MIX! Only 235c for a night of bliss!' Street vending would be everywhere. Carts. Kids with chicklet boxes. Guys in trenchcoats asking you to buy a watch... Hmmm...I may have to make some new wandering NPCs that do this.

Or, you can just move into an empty space and squat there. That's what Bansupuro Park is all about. Squatters.

:)

And there are plans for vending machines...we have them about 75% ready.

By Iga at Aug 18, 2004, 8:33 AM | 0
*goes out into a empty rack finding spree*
By Xeethot at Aug 18, 2004, 4:03 PM | 0
In addition to what Iga said the Grid is a -great- resource to finding the people who have what you want. The guy who owns the commerical shops on your IRL corner isn't hanging out there waiting for you – You've got to find him through some manner. The higher the population of an area, the more likely their will be one or more levels of indirection between the guy who owns the property and the guy who's using the property.
By Johnny at Aug 18, 2004, 7:32 PM | 0
2700 square foot appartment (very large for Hong Kong)
�uh, call me poor, but that's a big -apartment- anywhere I've lived. �I had a 2 bedroom that was well under 1000 square feet. �

Yes! You can wander about the streets yelling 'Drugs! Drugs! Best mRc in the MIX! Only 235c for a night of bliss!' Street vending would be everywhere. Carts. Kids with chicklet boxes. Guys in trenchcoats asking you to buy a watch… Hmmm...I may have to make some new wandering NPCs that do this.

yeah, that would be cool. �

By Jotun at Aug 19, 2004, 9:29 AM | 0
but the thing is… with these carts and street vendors, is it actually practical? i've never looked into how they actually make their money but in the case of legal items, it sounds to me like a street merchant selling watches is either going to need a cheap watch supplier from somewhere, or get his wares from the watch shop. in order to make a profit, he'd either have to charge more than the watch shop charges (making the watch shop the buyer's choice anyway) or get cheap ones from a supplier who would probably be a GM, taking up yet more GM time.
Now onto illegal stuff, i havent checked but im assuming drugs are illegal otherwise they'd be in street stores everywhere. so when Mr Terra Agent is on patrol with his many friends and he hears "DRUGS!!! DRUGS!!! GET YOUR LSD!!!" from down the street, he marches over to check it out and the poor drug salesman chummer is standing there, red-faced and sweating, hopelessly trying to hide a drug cart behind his back. you could try to only sell drugs in areas where there aren't any agents but obviously they move around, and the cart has to be pushed through the streets to and from a safe place.
Unless the Agents happen to be druggies themselves, which would make sense in some cases.
By darKPete at Oct 2, 2004, 8:28 AM | 0
Pharmaceutials are legal, getting addicted to them is not. This will all be getting more IC in the near future.
By Johnny at Oct 2, 2004, 10:13 AM | 0
How about push carts as IC objects that you can setup, and stock with items.  I think that would be an incredible plus for the economy, not to mention good RP.  You start out by renting the cart for a much smaller fee then renting space in a building.  Maybe the merchants that rent shops get angry with the street cart vendors.  They hire mixers.. it creates jobs.. it allows players to sell stuff to other players..

Then the street cart vendors eventuly raise enough money to buy there own cart!  Then they can start renting that cart out, and use the money they have made, plus the weekly rent money from whoever they rent it from.. to rent a spot in a real building!  Or just keep buying street carts and build there empire like that..

I would -love- to see street carts.

By Nemisis at Nov 2, 2004, 9:38 PM | 0
We experimented with that already. Use the search and find the idea on it. There is presently a character who wanders around a particular area, pushing a food cart. It's very iffy and this code is exactly what is in the way for:

  • motorcycles
  • hoverboards (whatever)
  • scooters
  • pedal bikes
  • push carts
  • inline skates
  • wheelchairs
  • crutches

… and anything else that needs to exist at once in the room and in the -hands- of a player. In all these situations, we've got to bind a player to an object in the location and in EVERY possible situation, resolve what happens to that object when someone mucks with the player and vice versa.

By Johnny at Nov 3, 2004, 5:18 PM | 0
Quote: from Iga on 10:33 am on Aug. 18, 2004[br]
Yes! You can wander about the streets yelling 'Drugs! Drugs! Best mRc in the MIX! Only 235c for a night of bliss!' Street vending would be everywhere. Carts. Kids with chicklet boxes. Guys in trenchcoats asking you to buy a watch… Hmmm...I may have to make some new wandering NPCs that do this.

[…]

And there are plans for vending machines…we have them about 75% ready.

NPCs like this would still be very cool… and every vending machine on Gold and Green has been empty for a long, long time.

By BuddhaBrand at May 9, 2006, 10:53 AM | 0
Restocking some stores may help out teh economy.
By Biohazard at Jun 4, 2006, 8:54 AM | 0
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