The Players

Yes, it is a complaint. A call for improvement. I'm issuing a complaint about the actions and behavior the the players themselves. Now, please don't get me wrong, I am in no way, now or ever, going to group everyone together and say that 'all the players do <stupidshithere?'. Some do some of it, some all of it, some none of it, and so on. So use your discretion when you decide to get offended.

This post is being made out of the frustration and annoyance of all Admins, GM's and coders alike. This is here to address numerous issues that have been addressed off-and-on on an individual basis with players as the problems arise, but apparently that's not good enough.

First off. The sewers. This is something that will piss me off about faster than anything else, because it's a quintessent example a player giving no real consideration that his/her character is existing and acting in a real world, with common sense and thoughts weighted in reality.
Look at this common occurence:
Player gets a Bruce run
Player goes through the sewers to deliver.

Why? It's a bit faster, and free, apparently. Maybe in a completely technical sense, one could say it is 'more efficient'. Or, the more common answer "My character is a tightwad/doesn't want to pay for Lev fare", etc. I really, truly want to know how any of you can say that, and actually fucking -believe- it. I really want you think about it. You're trudging through various levels and consistency of all forms of liquid and solid -shit-. For what? To save 45-90 chyen? Bullshit. I can't say it firmly enough: bullshit. The sewers are there because they're a part of the IC world. For the extreme majority of the populace, they are NOT there to be a mode of transportation. Do they have purpose? Oh, oh yes they do. But it's been a damn long time since I've seen them used for any of those purposes.

You may not consider this a big deal, but it is. It really is. Because it's just one facet of a larger problem.

Some players go and get food, and drink other than at the Drome. Why? Do characters need to eat and drink? Yes. They do. Just because there is no OOC code to force you to need to do it in order to survive, doesn't mean it isn't true. You people constantly whine about things not being done…I'm not going to blame this on the players entirely, but even they play a role in it. Because a lot of you can't take the responsibility to fucking RP things you KNOW should be around/happening, you force the coders to -make- you see the issue, and that means taking time away from things like cybernetics to enforce certain aspects of the game. Wow, it really sounds like bullshit when you look at it, doesn't it?

I really don't know why some of you don't take advantage of opportunities to RP that come along, I mean, what else are you here to do? RP doesn't mean purely being run in/starting plots, backstabbing people, etc...it also includes being your character, they are real people living lives. Please, think of them that way.

Another big issue, is players whining when bad things happen. Hey, if we setup a courier run that nets your character a nice chunk of change, we're being great Admins, and you're in love with the game. But another plot runs through where you're char. loses money or gets killed, and within 3 minutes, we're swarmed with xhelp's about how 'unfair' it all is.

That's the point of the game. Unfair. Cruel. Intense. HARD. ANd trust me, you have no idea how much GM's are pulling punches right now on a lot of fronts, because we're afraid of pissing the players off, and having them leave. Personally, this really makes me angry. If you want a nice little game where you have everything handed to you, nothing 'bad' happens, and every day you're on the winning end of the stick, then I invite you to leave now, and go find yourself a fluffy-bunny Lord of the Rings MUD where your kind are welcomed.

We want to see intense, creative, motivated, driven players that understand this is a harsh, cutting world, where if you don't stay on top of things and give your best every day, you're probably gonna wind-up dead. And realize that even if you've done all you can, SHIT WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN.

If we plotted out something that had your brand new, 2-day old char. perma-killed for no reason, THAT is unfair. But your 3-month thug gets wasted by a rival...please, tell me how that's unfair.

Alright, I'm done ranting to you all. But there are a lot of things the players needed to be told. Again, not all of you do all of this, not even close, but enough of you do enough of a combination of these things, that I'm taking time to type all this, and post it.

This is cyberpunk. It's dark, graphic, mature. I'm really sick of seeing players that don't have any clue what kind of MOO they're playing in. I see all these Mixers happily sipping their drinks at the Drome, happy as can be. I struggle to understand why they aren't angry. Or at least jaded.

There's so much more I want to say, and sometime I might. but for now I'm done. If you read this far, thank you for your time.

And please...
Game the fuck on!

But this fluffiness, 9 times out of 10, is the fault of the players, not the Admin.

(Edited by Legba at 4:19 pm on July 22, 2003)

On the other hand: SO MANY PLAYERS NEED TO STOP TRYING TO BE EVERYONES FUCKING FRIEND. STOP INTRODUCING YOURSELF TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU SEE. RAGH! THIS IS NOT CHEERSMOO. Oh, and don't act bitter to me OOCly when your char starts shit with a psychopathic thug and ends up getting killed. That's just annoying. =P

less a problem of being fluffy bunny more so being selfishly selective in your roleplay? RPing that which is beneficial and avoiding/ignoring those small inconveniances for our chars that make life interesting? (like smelling like sewage, having been stabbed in the head, having just been insulted by a drunk midget?) could that be said to be a problem player side?

heh. and only the rare person that i know goes around introducing themselves to randome people in a bar. one of them's certifiably insane and very hot while the other one just likes to get kicked in the teeth by drunks.

so god yes. spaze is right. *pets*

- you don't need to know a chars name the very 2nd you see them! and you don't need to directly go up to them and start talking about the weather.
if you don't know HOW to do this…
use something in their appearance to start a conversation, try and create some RP with a prop in your hand, you doing something. maybe a comment under your breath about something on the TV/NLM/SIC, about the dead cockroach in your underpants sucking out your soul.  whatever. maybe it will start the words flowing, maybe not.

if they are surely enough, or suspicious enough (tis RED. people will be both of those and then some.) you might not even get their name that moment. so develop some sort of interaction and the next time you might get it. ask around even.

and another thing i find amusing,

the gentlemen who are outragiously polite to the point of flirtation to the sullen, rude, smelly, short female creatures in the ugly sewage covered coveralls that sit in the drome mumbling to themselves.

i know there's a fetish for it. but really!

man i've wanted to say that for a while :P

guess that goes back to failing to look at peoples descriptions and @look_place's.  we've all done it.

man over board! i need an editor.
i shall stop typing right n

Quote: from Legba on 5:14 am on July 23, 2003[br]I can't believe that even after my post here, things are still continuing to be abused. Now that my post was made, you have no exscuse for continuing. Either you are stupid, or you think that we are.

Or players, including some notable oldbies disagree fundamentally on some of your arguments, and so will then obviously not conform to your wishes.

I personally am only 'guilty' of the food point, and am so as like others I assume that my player does those things when I am not RPing, and whilst I try to make my RP representative so as to fully define my character all the time, RPing my character eating food when I know what he would eat and for what reasons simply inhibits the time I have to perform RP of greater consequence, which is more -fun-, and a lot more important.

Also, my character drinks water, and for good reasons. This means he drinks from the tap in his room, which I even RP sometimes but is totally unnecessary. People don't have a need to drink Soda/Beverages, or it's plausible that some don't anyway ;).

As it stands I find that I and others don't have enough time, or enough time at the same time to be able to even progress major developments between our characters (consequently developing/defining our characters) without difficulty.
Ahh, how our real lives get in the way of our virtual/fictional ones (or possibly vice versa ;)).

Regarding the

a fluffy-bunny Lord of the Rings MUD

And might I add that encouraging people to RP eating and drinking for sustenance is only going to encourage fluffiness. The Drome is interesting in that way, as due to the abundance of alcohol and the varied people coming and going there, some rather nicely non-fluffy events and developments can ensue.

Anyway, I'm rambling, I think that I've communicated what I believe.

PS. People are not stupid if they don't agree with a belief, meh people shouldn't really be considered stupid by default if they don't agree to a 'fact' in my view.

Saying you don't like a person is technically not something I would ban, though it does seem unnecessary. Though, as Legba said he doesn't care.

Telling a specific person to go 'fuck themselves sideways' however is really almost across the line. There's no need for us to break down to such statements. This is a place for complaining, for discussing, and doing so here is fine.

In future, insults like that will be banned. Sure, we're not too fluffy to take them. Sure, we want freedom of speech. Sure, no one is crying. But they -do- change the nature of the forum and cause the thread topics to go astray. We just don't need to resort to that kind of angry name calling. And it could also make some of the newer, more quiet players feel like their ideas will not be respected and make them not want to talk.

I agree with Protagonist, that it's ok for everyone to have different views of what CP, and even this MOO are for, as long as they adhere to the rules.

while I tend to agree with your view of CP, you cannot force that on someone else and you cannot change what they do by posting an angry rant on a forum. You're more likely to get the great RPers saying they agree with you than you are to suddenly bring some epiphany to someone who needs work, and you can't expect things to miraculously change a few days after you give some good advice to the playerbase.

(Edited by Athena at 2:47 pm on July 25, 2003)

I suppose that I picked up on:

Quote: from Spaze on 11:11 am on July 25, 2003[br]Regarding the sewers, some characters are just completely insane (Or maybe it's just Lance… who knows), and could pretty much care less what they're sloshing around in. And if you haven't seen the sewers used for their intended purposes in a long time, I honestly don't know what you're watching...

Quote: from Bias 4:58 pm on July 22, 2003[br]
the sewers. well, some chars have IC reasons to be in them. either some sort of job brings them down there or yes, they are nuts and feel at home in them.

Quote: from Bias 4:58 pm on July 22, 2003[br]less a problem of being fluffy bunny more so being selfishly selective in your roleplay?

But took the last quote from Bias as not being selfishly selective but using the limited time one has most effectively. However I see that that wasn't Bias's point, and my point also doesn't lead to fluffy-bunnyness.

If I had my character one day go through the sewer I would RP that to full effect, as it would be interesting and I feel it my obligation to do so, and not have people have to lean over and smell my character to know it(cometolater point™ 1). I simply disagreed with the eating and drinking for sustenance point for the reasons outlined in my previous post.

I guess that I was simply disregarding your valid arguments Legba as they didn't apply to me, but I guess the point is for those guilty to rectify their ways, and for those not to support what they believe in to help that.
So yeah, like a friend IMed to me, I only know of two characters who would ICly not have a problem with the sewers, plus added by myself what I know of Lance, although I don't have a lot of experience of that, so more may exist.
So I totally agree that it's messed up that people only selectively immerse themselves in SD because they can ignore some text, and feel that some arbitrary numbers representing their money matters more than the fact that their character should be covered in human faeces and other nasty stuff.

Likewise I totally agree with the CheersMOO problem (nicely put Murphy) and understand that you posted this complaint Legba as a lot of players, doing Bruce's runs and so forth are disregarding their environment and just taking the sewers etc. It must be a bother for the admin to have to tell the same thing to many players time after time, because some notice is not posted to tell them otherwise, even though they should realise that what they are doing is wrong. I guess that the aim of this topic was to be that notice, so the admin that can't be there all the time, and for which it would be helpful if they wouldn't have to deal with policing players on small matters, can work on furthering SD instead.

However as Athena posted, you can't expect results right away, and I also think that being rude about it all  doesn't really help.

With regard to:

Quote: from Jotun on 7:54 am on July 24, 2003 [br]sick, maybe, maybe not, but very good, as well as very bad smells should become part of the charcter's description.  just like the haggard drug thing..

Quote: from Hirononbu on 9:29 am on July 24, 2003 [br]Yeah, the smell doesn't go away with a simple shower…I would think...

I point you to my cometolater point™ 1, and state that as players such as Bias's do you change your @look_place to include being covered in sewage and making a statement of the stench that follows your character. Furthermore just as it's recommended to 'modify your clothing for RP' (I believe that that still isn't a relic despite some recent action) I recommend that you modify your own description to fit your characters changed and smelly state. You could even set it up as a server side macro if you didn't want to manually set it all the time, such as by having one named ~sewage or something with some extra lines added to the character description, and you could even have your sewage @look_place automated if you really wanted to as a separate command entry. Then simply have a ~clean macro to make everything go back to normal after your think your character has had sufficient showers and washed their clothes maybe.

In that light

Quote: from Legba on 2:01 am on July 22, 2003[br]Because a lot of you can't take the responsibility to fucking RP things you KNOW should be around/happening, you force the coders to -make- you see the issue

although maybe not the nicest way of putting it is true in my view.
The code to an extent is only there to prevent every bout of combat from being administered by GM, and to prevent players from feeling that things were unfair, along with providing immersion. But this immersion has to come from the players, and it's their responsibility to enact it. On that note, I don't know if Lujan stated it in this topic, but I disagree on the point that if something shouldn't be possible, it should be coded to make it so, to a certain extent.

It may be a good idea to set up a page on the website, or in the @newbie etc documentation if it isn't already there to common problems such as overuse of the sewers when it's not IC, and instantly seeing people and giving them your name before you have even looked at their description to realise that they have a gash across for their eye and all but the words 'I'm a badass and will kill you if you bother me' tattooed to their forehead.

So as I stated before I only really have a problem with

Some players go and get food, and drink other than at the Drome. Why? Do characters need to eat and drink? Yes. They do. Just because there is no OOC code to force you to need to do it in order to survive, doesn't mean it isn't true.

stated by Legba, although I agree with:

I really don't know why some of you don't take advantage of opportunities to RP that come along, I mean, what else are you here to do? RP doesn't mean purely being run in/starting plots, backstabbing people, etc…it also includes being your character, they are real people living lives. Please, think of them that way.

. I know that RP on SD to an extent is management, but I see it as a cross between interactively writing a cyberpunk story and acting. Characters daily eating habits etc are not covered much in novels and other works of fiction unless very significant or unless it establishes a scene for other events (drunken fight at the Drome etc) because every person has to eat and drink, and because it's a massively insignificant factor compared to others that I personally feel I have scarcely enough shared time for as it is.
However ignoring that one is covered in sewage, or ignoring other 'negative' things happening to ones character does not fit into this, as they define ones character significantly and they are important, and do feature in novels a lot.
Although one should feel connected and attached to ones character and immersed in their feelings to RP effectively in my belief, one should also have a distance to be able to act very differently to how oneself might act, to not be annoyed with people OOCly for 'loss' and one should embrace events good or bad for ones character personally in my view if they are interesting/significant.
Having good things happen all the time in a novel does not make it fun, and cyberpunk fiction should show that especially. And in the same way, that shouldn't be the case with ones personal enjoyment of SD.
Playing a CP Moo does not just mean that one does bad stuff to others, and one should embrace a characters loss as themely and significant and defining.
Furthermore RPing ones character covered in sewage only enhances roleplay, and probably won't result in 'bad' things happening anyway.

Anyway, it seems like I just kept writing and writing that whilst eating my breakfast so will stop there. Forgive me if my points are obvious, but I think that the point that this topic is trying to address is that some players aren't realising the obvious.

Would someone please tell me what is up with the sensitivity of those tags? I don't seem to be able to make a long post without the quotes messing up.

(Edited by Protagonist at 6:09 pm on July 25, 2003)

So *nods in agreement to Aikao*

Oh and…

We have to lead by example, as someone so eloquently put it.

That someone was Jotun I believe.

I have to say that I agree with Legba about some points. For example, Hiron said on the day that stink messages come off of the characters as they enter a room, or some measures such as this, he'll start taking the time to RP that they smell rank.  I know it's ridiculous to lean over and smell people, but Hiron was also saying something that sort of reinforced Legba's point. Legba said that the players make the admin have to make them aware of all these aspects of RP through code. He's right that this shouldn't be necesarry for everything. Ultimately, if your character has been creeping through the sewers, you gotta let the world know dammit. And you'll have fun if people start avoiding you cause of the stench.

And I'll take this time to throw in some player praise. It seems Bias is particularly good at RPing in the detailed negative aspects of her character, by just including little things that people would notice. It'd be great if everyone would do that some more.

Food is a trivial issue. I've used going for food as an RP mechanism several times before, but I hardly consider it a necessary thing to be done. There are some mundane things that are perfectly fine being left to assumption, and that's one of them. If you can use it for RP, go right ahead, but players shouldn't be required or even expected to just do it all the time.

And Protag, CheersMOO is my trademark reference to the problem. I've used it for a very long time ;)

:deal:

While some points I agree with, and some I don't, my main concern as of right now is Legba. �While I'll give him some slack on "outbursting and not being able to take the heat", this just crosses the line….

Quote:
I can't believe that even after my post here, things are still continuing to be abused. Now that my post was made, you have no exscuse for continuing. Either you are stupid, or you think that we are.

Harsh assumption…especially from a staffer, and an insult at that.  What Legba said was a complaint, as he stated himself. �Not a direct order...and as such, it shoulden't be taken as one.

Quote:
I don't care whether you like me or not. I really don't. Because I'm in the majority with my opinions, I'm GM'ing on a MOO that I love, and you're a disgruntled oldbie that, to my knowledge, has been banned.

So you can go fuck yourself sideways.

He doesen't care.. because he's in the majority, GMing a MOO that he loves, and Lujan is a "disgruntled oldbie that has been banned"? �While the second may be true, making statements like that is not a smart move. �The majority could change, and while Lujan did provoke him in a way, I think the backlash was a bit unnecissary. �What if Lujan wasen't a "disgruntled oldbie that has been banned"? �Would Legba react the way he did? �I don't know. �But a GM that totally oversteps the bounds by making personal attacks worries me.

Forget it, I'm done. I'm done trying to make things better for everyone. You complain about the MOO, and then when I try and address issues that are making it worse and keeping it from growing, it just lashes back.

Seriously, I don't care anymore.
Game on, don't game on, I just can't seem to care anymore.

–---
~Legba~

I'm not sure how I feel about a GM that just doesen't care. �Granted, he may have not been prepared for what he started, but after only a few days here and he's already given up…? �What about GMing on a MOO that he loves? �Love and care go hand in hand, I'd think, in all aspects of it. �

I do respect Legba as a GM and a person, he's been around the MOO since about 2001 it looks like, so he knows his stuff. �But as Spaze has hinted at ( "problems can't be solved overnight" ), Legba needs more patience. �

I think Bias nailed it on the head:

Quote: (with requested spelling corrections ;) )

He posted that "either you are stupid or blah blah" bit one day after his original post. GM's are constantly asking the players to be patient with this or that…. and yet he throws.. what -i- saw as an insulting remark towards the playerbase only a day after? granted it's towards the ones he sees as abusing a situation... but. he could have handled it a bit better or given a few days for the situation to change.

Personally, I feel like something should be done. �I'm not sure what, but, at the least, I think some sort of measures should be taken to make sure Legba understands his mistakes and realizes how he should correct them.

Thank you for your time.