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Restrict PVP until background approved
I know, I know

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Immies getting into trouble are a beloved part of Mix tradition, but without going into too much detail about IC events, I am now of the opinion that keeping people from initiating PVP (attacking, grappling, and pickpocketing) until they have an approved history might cut down on some of what at this point seems to be little more than trolling.

I know it's an OOC solution and not a perfect one at all, but this is definitely a headache on the player side and I'm sure staff has been getting an earful, too.

By Vera at Jan 18, 2017 11:59 PM
I support this and I haven't even been involved in the recent shenanigans.
By Trickyhottrev at Jan 19, 2017 12:00 AM
I'd be 100% behind letting them pick/attack/etc. NPCs but not players until they have an approved history. Seems like it would save grief on both sides- Mixer players from trolls and legitimate confused newbies from getting into more trouble than they can handle without keeping them out of it completely (the Sinners can still beat their asses with cricket bats, after all).
By undefined at Jan 19, 2017 12:02 AM
New players have a two week protection already, barring they initiate the combat. Honestly, it's a good learning tool to get your ass beat and it also instills an RP focus, rather than just outright murdering them. There seems to be a number of players that this aspect is being lost on, albeit I don't think restricting them is the right answer to teaching them the overall theme.
By Heliodor at Jan 19, 2017 12:04 AM
I deal with annoying immies like this all the time, but I think we shouldn't do that. To be honest, what first attracted me to this game is the fact that you have the freedom to do all sorts of things, such as pickpocketing x3

Although I would more than love for immies to start being more reasonable, I do not believe this is the way. Maybe there's a better solution.

By Diani at Jan 19, 2017 12:06 AM
I don't know that this is really a solution, histories are extremely fast to approve and wouldn't really stop players doing the abuse that's being pointed at.

My gripe with this is just that it's not exceedingly interesting, and it falls to the people around the chaos to salvage it. Cool stuff can happen, cool stuff has happened, but I wish it was a little more interesting on the whole and not just a cheap injection of chaos.

I'm all for danger. I'm not all for some rando zooming out of the gate, snapping necks and then falling asleep once things turn against them. I wish it was more interesting than that more consistently, but maybe that just means if I care about this, I should be stepping up to be the person who forces this stuff to be more interesting. Or else.

By urgentsurgeon at Jan 19, 2017 12:31 AM
In my humble opinion, immigrants who run straight from the gate to start causing chaos only reinforces the desperation and futility of life in the dystopia. Little people causing little problems until the street closes in on them.
By kroack at Jan 19, 2017 12:51 AM
Seconded kroack.
By Euclid at Jan 19, 2017 12:51 AM
That being said, I can also really see how annoying these characters can get. But there's nothing anywhere that says you have to cut them slack or take their shit because they're immigrants. Destroy these people utterly for getting even slightly in your way, maybe their players will take the hint.
By kroack at Jan 19, 2017 1:54 AM
Are there unnapproved characters rushing in and attacking other PCs? If this is the case, I think they should have to AT LEAST put the effort into writing up a workable background, maybe @nakeds too... to put it in perspective, you don't really get enough UE to start with to cause anyone but more peaceful, non-combatants trouble, and other fresh newblet characters. It's kind of a buzzkill to know that the other player is risking nothing, whereas you're risking your time and effort composing and fleshing out a character, only to see it get flushed because someone wants to act out with the combat code. At least balance out the risk vs. reward so that it's not possible to put in nothing and go about wrecking people who've invested effort.

I've seen it happen on other games. People get banned and such but there's always proxies and alternate email addresses. It's often very difficult to get rid of the "real" problem players. I agree with the sentiment to let them discover just how bad the gangs can be without an approved background, but when you allow a player to just come up with a new name and go to town on the rest of the playerbase, you're kind of opening yourself up to some seriously exploitive abuse.

Personally, I think it's only good form for a player to invest time in at least catching a clue who's who and what's what before engaging in violence, otherwise, it becomes unrealistic play. If it's a repetitive problem, some restrictions may help to ease the burden so they at least have to make an effort to engage in such behaviors. I think Vera's proposal is a sound one, myself.

By 50tonsofflax at Jan 19, 2017 7:11 PM
Respectfully have to disagree. Random violence should be a part of the Mix. If your character doesn't even have the ability to fight, run, or hide from day-old immigrants, being randomly victimized from time to time makes IC sense.

What I do have a problem with, and considered starting a new thread for, is the way people have been reacting to dips lately. Your wallet gets stolen, you call it out over SIC, and suddenly 5-10 player characters are combing the streets looking for the described immy. Within an hour, the newbie is permed. This seems to have happened every day this week. Personally, in the past I've had good RP experience with dips - call in an ace cool and maybe we track them down, maybe we don't. If you catch them you get back what you took, maybe a little extra, and bruise them up. Maybe if you're feeling nice and they're obviously new, you give them some tips to help them RP their thief better in the future. Instead we have people rushing to perm newbies because someone they've only ever met on SIC got 36 chy taken from them. ICly this reaction makes little sense to me, when we have old men and women being beaten up and little girls getting shoved into vans every other block. Didn't we all just agree at the Town Hall not to be a bunch of white knights?

tl;dr - Maybe don't hunt down newbies unless you yourself were affected by them?

By Khalayx at Jan 20, 2017 4:19 AM
Everyone I've seen permed has had repeated warnings. Nobody wants to murder immies, but there comes a point where the dam can no longer hold.
By Vera at Jan 20, 2017 4:31 AM
Well, fine, far be it from me to argue for less perming.

The point I wanted to make is that some of us should reconsider how we respond to dips. If you just got dipped, heck yeah, chase them down. Maybe call or private sic an ace cool for help.

But broadcasting it over public SIC doesn't make as much sense to me. Nor does every random PC sitting bored in a bar or their cube running to join the hunt. Half of us, maybe more, play criminals or are affiliated with them somehow. If it's not you being robbed, what do you care if some random Joe down the street might lose a little chy out of his pocket? It's more interesting to let those directly involved play it out, imo.

Apologies if this ought to be it's own thread. Maybe people who've successfully RP'ed theives could start one?

By Khalayx at Jan 20, 2017 5:04 AM
I know that if I was playing a criminal. I'd want to know who the new shmuck in town is. Who's picking people's pockets in my hood...
By MrJDucky2 at Jan 20, 2017 5:06 AM
I've spoken my part on ooc-chat so I'll give the short version as to why I'm against this:

Some of the best RP uses the PvP mechanics. We have a system that allows people to play the game without submitting a history - this is good, as not everybody is prepared to make a commitment to the game. If they can't fuck up and get the hard welcome to Withmore, or get thrust right in, those players may never stick around to become regular players who 'get' the game. A LOT of players who stuck around and went on to play longterm started out like this, getting smacked and then 'getting' the game by being taught a valuable lesson. That kind of RP is compelling.

I think getting rid of it means fewer people stick around to submit a history at all.

By Euclid at Jan 20, 2017 5:09 AM
Exactly! I agree with Euclid. And, although immies are annoying if they go right ahead and crease your char (as said 'like a troll'), it might not only draw them into the game, it could also draw your char into the game and lead them to unexpected RP that could be pretty cool. Or even just nudge them slightly which could affect the future greatly.

If a certain char hadn't mugged my char, she would definitely -never- have become what she is now.

By Diani at Jan 20, 2017 5:14 AM
I don't know whether or not this is the best solution, but in my opinion there is definitely a problem. Without revealing details, there are definitely times when people are -clearly- not even attempting to roleplay and simply want to troll and fight shit. It's not immersive, it's not fun and it's not good for the game; it's just someone who wants to fuck with people OOCly. This'd definitely curb that.
By Sabess at Jan 20, 2017 5:24 AM
I tend to disagree on all points. Some of the best RP I've seen has happened because of some of the worst examples of dumb hack-n-slashy immigrants. And those players shape up or don't stick around, and their impact is incredibly minimal if it's the latter. I think the threat of being randomly attacked by an immigrant is, at the very least, something you just have to accept if you're going to keep playing a character who lives on Red.
By Euclid at Jan 20, 2017 5:27 AM
Wouldn't a simple solution to that be instead of restricting combat for people without approved backgrounds to just stop them being able to kill other characters?
By Stelpher at Jan 20, 2017 5:27 AM
And sometimes even without meaning to, RP is created. Your character is jumped. What will you do to prevent that? Go out into bars and make connections? Hire a bodyguard? Train yourself in self defense? Seek protection through deals?

Yes, it could be a problem, but whether they are or are not intending to cause RP, it is still caused. As mentioned before, the IC consequences they face are heavy; five PCs chasing them in one example (I think that's what they said?). If your character is attacked and does not react much except mourn over loss, then maybe try to find a way IC to prevent this.

Or perhaps, the solution to this type of problem can be made ICly.

By Diani at Jan 20, 2017 5:30 AM
Exactly right, it's something that should be dealt with as an IC issue.
By Euclid at Jan 20, 2017 5:30 AM
This game is pretty rough, most first time characters are 'tutorial characters' and don't last long. Its rather rare than an immy would be able to kill someone, not impossible...but rare.

Most of the time, its the immy who gets their ass beaten, but if its not the case, then you have some RP.

Find them, get even, make them work for you to repay the offense, etc, etc.

The mix is a rough place, and some immys are crazy. I mean, did you see the line to get inside the dome? I would be pissed too.

By ErgoProxy at Jan 20, 2017 5:32 AM
Regarding the complaint about dips, there's a ton of ways you can avoid getting caught if you're going to steal. If an immy fails to do any of these, gets caught red handed, and has a rain of fire descend upon them from all sides, maybe that says something about what those aggressing characters think about thieves. Just because things are dire in Withmore doesn't mean people just sit back and let things happen.

If you want to do crimes, do them intelligently and anticipate the repurcussions for getting caught. This is 100% a lesson immies should learn, and is just out and out real world common sense.

Going over and making an example out of a terrible dip isn't white knighting either. How do you know what intentions those characters are going into those situations with? The most obvious and themely case would be extorting the victim: You just did them a damn kindness, have them pay up!

By urgentsurgeon at Jan 20, 2017 7:57 AM
The Hard Hello. Welcome to Withmore. It's been around for as long as the game.

We offer protection for new characters for up to two weeks-- but this protection goes away if a character takes certain actions (pick pocketing, attacking someone), which would, if we kept protecting them, prevent other characters from defending themselves.

There will always be people who join the game and run around killing people and getting killed until they figure out that that is not the purpose of the game they are playing. I count myself among one of these people. I ran through 5-10 characters in my first few days because I ran out of chargen and tried fucking with gangers or established players.

This is a part of our learning curve, it also serves to discourage those that are looking for a purely MUD based game of hack n' slash. It promotes RP, reinforces our theme, and reinforces that our game is not hack and slash.

We take time on the admin side to discuss this with players who continually come out of character generation and attack people. We help them understand as much as we can. Not everyone ends up getting it, but for those of you that stick around (and there are a bunch of you that have!), you're better off for it and so is everyone else who plays.

<3

-- S

By Slither at Jan 20, 2017 8:45 AM
Blood. Bloooood. BLOOOOOOOD.
By kroack at Jan 21, 2017 1:07 AM
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