AND YES, THIS MEANS YOU.
(Edited by Iga at 9:38 pm on May 11, 2002)
|-||Ryuzaki4Days||20m||Within another moment don't went Alice after it...|
|-||BrickAstley||1m||Ain't no place for a hero.|
|-||ragingcunt||2s||that's not very cyperpunk of you|
|j||Fengshui||16h||http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M0DV5IQ <- My Book|
|j||Johnny||2h||New Code Written Nightly. Not a GM.|
|And 7 more hiding and/or disguised|
Since when did the MOO policy become 'fuck the newbie'? I mean, wtf? Remember when I wanted to make the taxi system a 'hire' based system and you (Johnny) insisted that it have no requirements and be open for anyone to walk in and do because, in your words, there had to be certain sources of income freely available to newer players?
Older players have the disposable income for clones, older players have the UE to waste on charisma and older characters have the stability to take risks and absorb falls.
Fuck the newbie. I like that, great new slogan for the MOO.
because of my high charasima, I can smell like flowers!
As for fucking newbies? yes, fuck them with a rusted scafolding pole, right in the arse.
Maybe now it's not so easy for them to make 3k or more a day, they might actually take on some of the many jobs and money making oppertunities that are player driven.
Plus, it's your round.
or at least lend me a tenner so I can get one..I'll pay it back tuesday..honest..
though... on one hand... forcing REALLY new newbies to spend UE on charisma does seem a bit cruel...
maybe you could have it set up that you can work for bruce for a period of time as a filthy ugly homeless bum dog-boy... (you know, Bruce giving back and helping out the city he loves... and all that jaz)
then after that time expires... you have to get your charisma up or you get kicked to the curb by mean old Brucie till you DO smell like roses...
i guess that would be a lot of code n stuff though... but yeah...
just some rambling.
the whole charisma thing is partly why i decided to stop being lazy and get my character some sort of job other then working for bruce... so it isn't a BAD idea either...
just maybe needs some tweeking?
Since before I departed I've watched the conversations and rants about crime, income and how difficult it is to touch the untouchables. I've watched oldbies and admin alike rant at how pathetic the newbies are being, how they lack vision and how they show no imagination. I've always refrained from commenting simply because I wasn't overly keen on disagreeing with oldbies and admin en-mass.
I -seriously- challenge any admin or oldbie to create a brand new character and do all, or indeed -any- of the things they say are so simple. I've watched newbies get fucked over by admin controlled NPC's because they take a risk and pull off something that gives them a good chunk of cash. I've watched newbies get ass-reamed by senior admin for pickpocketing people who are asleep on the streets. I, myself, have created a character and sneaked through apartment building checking doors for someone who forgot to lock up only to have an admin alt very conveniently show up and start closing and locking all the doors he found open.
Sure, I've dealt with newbies abusing flaws in the system, but on many -many- occasions I've seen perfectly acceptable actions get them fucked in the ass without a drip of lube because what they were doing was -smart- and gave them a head start up the ladder.
Bruce was -meant- to be a starter job to get -newbies- off the bottom rung and springboard them into the game where they could look for 'work' and RP jobs. Instead it's been almost totally closed off to the people who need it and left open for the benefit of older players who it was -SPECIFICALLY- not meant to be used by.
I think its often underused and over roleplayed. There are characters who probably roleplay as being much more suave and charming than their stats would show if everyone else could see them.
And to answer your statement about older characters using Bruce for income, that's simple, create a cut off date. Perhaps its not as simple code wise, I could be totally wrong. But if it is, why not set it so that after so many runs, or months, Bruce doesn't give you anymore. He tells you to go and work somewhere else. Maybe it could be a tax issue. If he employs you for X amount of runs/months he has to start paying tax on it and give you benefits or something.
Wether or not players should create more balanced characters out of char-gen isn't the issue, the fact is most of them won't. Most -will- go for the exciting and glamorous sounding stats and skills. Sure, ideally there should be far more benefits to spending points on charisma.
As it happens, someone with a very high charisma (I know one player in the game who is high enough) could go to the market on red and actually make money buying and selling items at the market. With a high enough charisma it's quite possible to haggle a buying price down to well below 50% then haggle the same item up for sale to over 50%, making clear profit. Ideally the system should be more complex, but as it stands, trading is a viable source of income.
Fact of the matter is that the Bruce system is still a second rate stop-gap arrangement that has been repeatedly patched and altered to prevent abuse. It still pays too much, it's still too convenient and it's still too linear and quick to present any real challenge.
And anyhow, we're talking about couriers here. Not 'employees', they're paid to get a package from A to B ASAP on a per-job basis. The history check was introduced to cover the basis that Bruce wouldn't trust any old schmuck to run packages, charisma implies that a courier business is refusing to employ people because they're either too butt-fucking ugly or socially inept. Now, don't get me wrong, but have you taken a look round the warehouses and grunt delivery jobs of the world recently? We're not talking UPS here, we're talking Billy-Bob junkie -walking- a package down to red to pay for his next fix. No uniform, no paperwork, no health plan or pension. Who exactly do we expect to be doing this work?
The reasons /why/ it was done are irrelevent. Fact of the matter is it's a poor concept that's been poorly thought out and poorly implemented from a game mechanics and logic POV.
Combined with the hike in clone prices, the ones bearing the brunt of the changes are newbies, who have it hard enough as it is.
Oh, and while I'm here. Yes, I -know- the older established players reading this will say it's not that hard to get somewhere in the game if you put some effort into it, after all, you did it. Yep, that's true, but without saying it was in any way a bad thing or saying anything about the way any of you got where you are, how many of you got out of newbi-dom without some/alot of IC assistance from established players? How many of you learnt -everything- you know about the game yourself and earnt every singly chyen you own from your own hard work? Not many I'd guess. Now, where does that leave us in the grand scheme of things when it comes down to the lack of conflict everyone seems so bothered about? By making things tougher on newbies, not only are you risking a decrease in the play-through of newbies, you're also increasing the dependency of those who do play through on older and established players, contributing further to the happy-fluffy-bunny-MOO syndrome.
Too much code, not enough concept.
oyeah... and before I forget again, could I get that 'family' title cleared please, you have no idea how insulting I find that... even the mafia don't fuck 'family' like this place does
(Edited by Rastus at 7:02 am on May 27, 2002)
I haven't been playing the murder and mutilate like reality �of sindome for very long and unlike most newbies I will freely admit that I don't know everything.
Yes theres always a question point of a post like this. I made my character with what I thought was a high charisma and rp to that effect. I did this or rather I am still doing this at the expense of futhuring my other skills or stats or general joy of running around in fields of drugs the size of a small country..... wait...ummm.. yeah... I sure it involved a hat somewhere... maybe it was blue.
Well the despite my high charisma(for a newbie atleast.) I find that whenever I ask Bruce for a job I find that I get the usual response of;
"Sorry no jobs at this time"
"Bah stop taunting me, because me and clipboard boy here won't to go out back and do strange things to flossy the sheep".
Now it was my understanding that SHI was to get you some cash to get your character abit more free flowing across the dome, unlike the drugs and money that don't flow so freely into my country. But once abit of cash has been aquired you move on and do a job or two a day for Bruce. However if all you ever seem to get is grief from the jolly round man and clipboard boy that is forever at his side is it possible that the charisma requirements are set too high ?
Now the idea that the clones are high price... I have no problem with that because the prices had gone up before I had joined and I didn't know any different. I blame my late start in sindome on Beer and the constant search for the meaning of life at the bottom of each glass of said beer.
But I ramble.
The point is by the time I earn enough money to buy a clone, I will have either been killed by a Pc character because I was forever trying to raise my charisma to get better work from bruce and haven't developed any evil combat skills. Or I'll need to start renting an apartment and the idea of working 24/7 in SHI is not one I like the look of.
Midway point --- I'm getting to the point... Honest
Now, I've been roleplaying for many many years. I blame my addiction to Coffee, Coke and Pizza on this fact and would more than happily roleplay my way out of the current situation, But due to a lack of non newbie like skills my options are limited. It's suggested that I look on the NLM terms... Which have a lack of rescent work on them(If there is, I missed it due to it being far too obvious.) and to try asking the NPC's around in the various companies, Now I've walked around most of the buildings on Gold and find that there are a great lack of NPC receptionist of which to ask in a polite non gun toting like manner "do you have any work". The other is of course meeting people and asking them for work. But yet again the character is still in it's new and fresh out of the foil packet like stage and as such is still learning the skills of life. So what use is he to characters that have been around for years and can't really generate random low level tasks for some low level junky that they took pity on.
So theres the insight into the wonderful and painful world of a newbie today in sindome. It appears that if you can survive the first few months things get slightly better, But the question is, how many newbies that join get fed up when everyone else is swimming like a dolphin on speed and your getting no where like a bat floating in acid.
Don't say it because they didn't have a vision for their characters either or that thier heart wasn't in the sprite of the game or something godly like that because everyone has grand plans for thier characters when they start. It's not completely thier fault that the system just like the system in real life is designed to destory that.
Well that's how I see it... You don't have to agree to the view or even disagree with it. But I would rather fling open the doors to the cinema just about to show the film 'Newbie takes on SinDome' that stand on the side lines and let nothing happen.
End - See the end... hahaahahh....ha.
Damn I knew I'd think of something else.
Maybe gold could do with another newbie like job. Very much like the SHI factory where you scanin and work etc etc... Have it pay just like 150 an hour, just something alittle bit more than the hell hole of a work place on Red. Telephone support desk operator or something, a job that fits in with gold like clean standards, Impose an age limit on it. So when a character has been playing for say 2 months just disallow him from working there with the polite message;
"Fuck off and roleplay."
Ok I've finished ranting and raving about stuff now...
Burnt Cow Security, but as I understand it, it was being abused or something and so it's no longer available for use.
Seriously though, once i pick through the drug induced metaphors in your post, I have to say you make some valid points.
Yes, the system does shit on the new guy. But that's life. If money is easy to get, it loses it's value, it's called inflation. - Perhaps what's needed though, is a halfway house between SHI and WW.
Maybe you could work shifts in Rikken McChikken!
do you want fries with that?
Pick almost any oldbie and they got their wealth through game changes and lack of things to buy. (no things to buy it just stays in the bank)
The middlebies that have money most likely had a harder time with saving and such, however the other point I made was that this place for some times had been Happy Fluffy Moo. The number of players resulted in everyone being friends with everyone. And even if they weren't friends there was very little conflict in the terms of gaining wealth. Most conflict was who was marrying who, who divorced who, who cheated on who. It was very sad :P
But now, there is much more diverse players. There are people trying to make a go of things without kissin' everyone's ass. There are newbies who've risen to a certain level of power. But it takes more cunning.
Lastly I'll remind that POWER doesn't equal combat stats
. A combat character has weaknesses in other areas. Power is information. But that's even tougher to get than chyen and stats. you can't boost info stat, you can't punch information....information is almost all abou thow you RP. And not every character SHOULD be played to be info hunger or info savvy.
As for Bruce, if yer getting the 'we have no jobs' message it's not because of charisma...not that you should camp Bruce for jobs, but it doesn't hurt to wait around a bit. I've seen characters with almost no charisma get a couple jobs. I didn't watch them long...but they did.
I'm done not pertaining to the topic.
Money -is- hard to come by, for most of the time I've had my character, they've had less then 10k in their account. How did I get money? I worked my ass off in a GM plot, Yes newbies -are- treated like shit ICly, but believe it or not, most people will help you out, I just recently gave away 10k to a newbie because I liked their RP. How did I get rich and advance? I screwed people over, but at the same time, I -didn't- burn many bridges. Even at the moment I'm putting my character slightly out to help a newbie out.
If you can avoid screwing people over, do it, and if you can't, don't do it openly.
As a new character, you've got nothing to lose. Worst that can happen is that you wind up poor, homeless and with nothing of value.
Which you'll notice is how you started, so you've lost nothing.
So then you start over.
You're never going to win the lottery unless you buy a ticket......
I mean that metaphorically.
The thing with a game like Sindome, is that you'll only get out what you put in. If you mooch about complaining, and never doing anything and (Yes, ok, I know I've done this enough..) never leaving your apartment, or cube..don't expect to get very far..
A lot of people talk about their @stats like they're the be all and end all of everything.
That's crap. - Sure, stats make a difference and affect your ability to do certain things, but, stats alone, do not a powerful character make.
Information, connections, money - all things available to you if you look for it, all can make for a powerful character.
Going back to Stonemonk's point, which was so eloquantly put, dragging yourself as a new character out of the gutter, and clawing your way to the top is what the game's all about. This is a Cyberpunk game. Life is hard, but it's in -your- hands to change it, if only you're prepared to struggle to get free of the crap.
Get out there and earn yourself a reputation, it's as good as a suit of armour if you do it right.
I'm not sure if any of that was relevant or made sense, but I'm too lazy to preview it.
I was trying to think of solutions, not problems with the people giving the ideas
I seem to have introduced a bug into the stores that conceals items they have for sale, I've been trying to track it down, but it still sneaks up from somewhere, rather annoying that way. Theres a verb that periodically cleans the bug and fixes the stuff on sale, thats why you periodically see stuff appear in large amounts at the stores.
"Here's your crate"- duh
"Your an ugly dog boy"- you failed the charisma check
"No runs right now?" Duh
Cause if there isn't runs he says not for someone like you, it's just a bit confusing and I don't know where I'm being fucked, Char or someone already did a run
i still don't get the relationship between looks and personality... and that's how charisma has been explained to me...
low charisma - ugly bastards with an arangutan's bum for personailty and demeanor
high charisma - the beautifull people that can charm the pants off of someone not even wearing pants...
but... i'm sure we all know people with horrible looks/body habits that are wonderfully refined socially as well as the amazing person with looks etc that has the social tact of a dead monkey....
i still don't see how looks and attitude can be so closely linked... if that makes sense. or have i been under the wrong impression with what charisma IS?
(Edited by Aikao at 9:43 pm on July 28, 2002)
I think losing charisma for killing people and mutilating corpses is a fucking great idea.
I hear a lot of people talking oocly about how certian aspects of the game aren't realistic, "Because in real life, that just doesn't happen"
Well, no shit. But in real life a single .38 round could kill you. You'd all whine about that if someone pulled the walther on you IC and blew you away in one shot though.
In real life, we have to eat and drink a balanced diet every day, or we suffer from malnutrition and die. If you had to eat every day IC, a lot of you would find your characters starving to death, or that the money you spent on food means you can't make the rent.
I could go on all day, but there's really no point, so I'll cut to the chase.
There are things about the Moo that don't perfectly simulate the way things are in the real world. There is a reason for this.
Statistic are an abstraction. Treat them as such.
It's a game.
When will people final get the message;
"It's only a bloody game."
Ok maybe it's as addictive a crack and steals every waking moment, slowly drinking our souls like anyone playing would a can of coke.
But it's still, only a game.
Never will a computer game ever completely carbon copy life, the subject matter is just too diverse and complicated.
So you have to put some UE into Charisma. There's nothing wrong with that. You never know it might stop the character from turning into yet another bloody combat monster or lone ninja out for bloody justice. Hell I've got it, the year 2000 clicked round and the world stop and decided like one voice to give up on letting normal people exists any bloody more. Every child from here on in will have obscene combat orientated lives.
Aaahahhhhhhhhhhhh.... Common sense I scream at you. Please use some.
It's only a game... In Beta testing I might add, So quite bloody whining and RP instead of worrying about some minimal loss in one of your stats.
I should think it's the reason they've got word levels instead of numbers, It's to try and stop people from worrying about such stuff which in my opinion is second to the main reason I thought we all joined, RP.
Stat playing, is the domain of petty crap that and I'm sure I'm not the only one when I say this;
Would rather do without, Stat playing not the actual stats which can occasion be useful.
So lose some points in charisma, spend UE and get them back but don't keep bringing up the same bloody point that it's not realistic because it never will be.
... Oh yeah, If you want realistic how about we make everyone justify every point of UE that's ever spent.
That next level in Brawl or MA that your working on... Been to the gym or dojo lately, I'm sorry your skill in weapons quite high yet you've never actual used them before. I'm sorry did you say something about having your skill in basket weaving at such a highly level but you've never once weave a basket... Ahhhhhhh... damn you.
How many times must people repeat themselves before others listen I ask ?
It's Monday morning, I'm at work and now very annoyed... I'm going to find a pub.
Sure, you, the player, aren't affected when you 'kill' someone in a 'game' and 'gouge' their 'eye' out, but for someone actually doing these sorts of things, killing people and mutilating their bodies, it would have some sort of psychological effect on them.
According to social conventions: If you go around murdering people and pulling their eyes out, YOU ARE A BLEEDING PSYCHO, and whether you like it or not, it will probably manifest itself in your mannerisms.
Charisma is part looks, but it's also part psyche, personality, and you can't be -forced- to RP psychosis after skull-fucking a few dozen corpses. So, to me, the charisma loss makes perfect sense.
That's charisma at work, right there.
See, if you go and kill 15 toddlers, then there's something seriously wrong with you, and people are going to pick up on it sooner or later. They won't know what you did, or even if you did anything, but the fact is, these kinds of actions -change- a person's psyche, and this in turn changes the way you act. Seen Psycho? Remember Norman Bates? Couldn't you TELL something was wrong with him? Of course, he made a good job of hiding it, because he put some of his UE back into charisma.
Basically, if you used to get denied by Bruce, you now just don't get paid as much, so at least its not a slap in the face.
I mean you can't really know what I do, if you dont see me do those things, you have no clue that I'm seriously messed up. As far as you guys know I -am- a serial killer. But you don't. So you can only judge me on the actions you see me take.
Bruce is fine by me...
Oh and by the way I never made that serial killer comment...I may need you guys to prove my sanity in my up and coming court trials ;)
That's what charisma is, it's what people think of you at a glance. So if your character is really a horrible person but everyone thinks they're great on the outside, then your character must have good charisma.
Bad charisma means you could be the nicest person in the world but something just smells fishy to people when they meet you.
So it's not really an issue whether we've seen you blow up buildings or murder toddlers. That would be a formed opinion of you and not charisma at all.
You can have the highest charisma in the game, but unless you play your character as being charismatic its not going to matter.
Stats are just a guide, its the roleplay that is the important thing.
Take a character a lot of people hated/hate (not sure if he's still around) - Luc - do you see him as being charismatic? I know I never have. Ask yourself if he was roleplayed as having a lot of charisma. Then take Timmy that little snot, er I mean adorable child..hehe..and ask yourself the same question.
There's so much more to charisma than eyeball gouging, smelling like sewers and jobs from Bruce.
hehe� yes.. so many posts in here, and you know what? i like this topic :) pretty topic�
uhm, tash really does bring up an interesting point, because no one else -knows- if the character has charisma stats coming out the wazoo or not, (well, other then the player.) so it comes down to a matter of how other players perceive your ability to RP according to your charisma. there�s a few chars that i really think must have high charisma.. or at least have decent charisma because of how they are handled in game, as well as some characters that i doubt have much charisma at all. it comes down to their choice of words, their actions and reactions and players interpretations of these. a lot can be said for poses in this case.
the funny thing is, you can�t really know if you are pulling off the charismatic or not charismatic RP, or if someone sees your char the way you are intending. i�m sure i�d disagree on a few characters with some people if we where to get into debate on who acts charismatic and who doesn�t. but� this is a good thing! very good.
*brain goes blank*
if i am suddenly able to think again i�ll say why it�s a good thing� but it �is- a good thing� good i say!
*crawls off into a corner*
Tash, you wouldn't happen to ... like RP... would you?
Hehe, just seems like you're a constant reminder to us that that's what we're here for... which is a good thing! =)
It's all well and good to say "Roleplay your statistics" but, if you go by that, all newbies are weedy slow, ugly, half-blind morons. And that's just the players!
No but really, you know what I mean. When I see a character with something like "Clive is a block of muscle, towering over even the biggest gangers" in thier description, there's this little stat whore in the back of my mind whispering, "But, really his strength is low, he's not actually strong at all"
I'm rambling again, it's 3:23am, so I'm entitled to, but there is a point to this..honest.
We can't all be expected to play our characters as perfect representations of our stats. What I've always done, is had a clear picture of what I'd like my character to be like, roleplayed him to that image, and then plowed ue into the areas that statistically are required to back that up. In other words, you don't need to play your character like he's been beaten savagely with the ugly stick, just because fresh outta chargen, your charisma's not up to much. If you want to play a good looking, witty, charming character, then do it, and spend your ue to add substance to your creation as and when you get it.
If that doesn't make sense, then, ask me sometime and I'll try and explain it in a less convoluted way.
(Edited by King[Fu] at 12:25 am on Aug. 7, 2002)
Ohh, and one more thing Tash, seeing your char topless is one thing, but I personaly think it's far, far, far worse for a player to have seen your char *looks around cautiously*....naked. I mean serously, who here thinks is safer to see Tash topless as apposed to naked? I know I do. But I'm just one person so who knows.
Jesus, this is like my third post today, someone must have been bored... Ohh well. It happens
Ohh, and compleatly on the original topic, I like the way things have been done, it makes things a bit more interesting.