Weapon Refactoring and Messages
some things are changing

So, I am finally getting around to a job that I was supposed to do about 3 years ago. Write multiple attacks for each weapon in game. In addition these attacks will be skill based, meaning if you have a crappy skill level with pistol you will do less damage and see less variety of attacks.

Also, as part of this, the damage ranges and amounts for weapons are being brought into line. Expect to see your katana's doing less damage, and your guns doing more. Expect to see melee weapons fall into line damage wise in comparison to fire arms. Expect to see people with lots of skill having the ability to do one hit kills with certain weapons. Expect to see certain weapons doing knockout hits as well.

Currently the staff and I are working our way through the melee weapons. From there we'll move to fire arms (the Sebburo 6mm is done), then to bladed weapons, and finally to anything left over.

Once the weapons are re-messaged and skill based attacks in place, combat should shift a bit, especially for the high-end skill levels. It would be wonderful if players could keep an eye out for typos, bugs, and errors in combat. Also, it would be great if you would give us some feedback on how the new damage ranges are working, or not working.

Finally, this will probably take between 2 weeks and a month to complete. Which, in Sindome time equals about twice that.

:)

;)

*writes messages for the dildos*

(Whether I am one of them is information I do not necessarily wish to divulge at this point...)

Mmm. Typos, bugs and errors - oh my!
*goes on the prowl*

but thats just me.

AgentA Shoots Ninjaboy with Glock 20 in head.
Ninjaboy starts to bleed.
Ninjaboy slashes AgentA with katana on right shin.
AgentA falls to the ground dead.

That's just my 2 cents... take it or leave it.

There's a reason that guns replaced the swords of the middle ages and beyond. A reason that the samaurais lost (Last Samaurai anyone?)

All I'm saying is that range is the ULTIMATE factor when it comes to the gun vs. katana issue. Swords will always be better up close, its just easier to parry and attack with. Even if someone got off a shot close range, it may not be the most well aimed shot... unless they got it off JUST as the opponent closed in. Then it's point blank and we have one of those gaping holes.

However, we can never really look to real life for combat issues. In real life, you can't take a gunshot wound to the head and keep going. In real life, you can't get three gunshot wounds, four slash wounds, and a burn wound... then goto the clinic and be ready for more.

In the gun vs swords arguement... I will always favor guns as being more powerful. Hands down. Let history show that. Guns are used much more often than swords in today's day and age. (SD is much further down the line). Why? Because they can do more damage at a greater range in a quicker period of time.

You need to just pull the trigger to fire another shot in real life.

FIRST OFF: Fire arms are a RANGED weapon, Swords are not.

That is a KEY point. In a fight, close in, a sword is more useful to you than a firearm, as wren noted. You have more ability to adapt, a wider range of motions, and the 'speed' of a firearm is made negligable during infighting.

If you are going to compair old technology and new technology, use the proper compairasons. Firearms did not replace swords, firearms replaced the bow and arrow. Additionally, swords have -never- been a common man's weapon. Swords have always been the realm of the elite, military, or nobility. The average person would use knives, or sticks, or pitch forks. In a modern context the sword has largely been relegated out of combat situations, and replaced with things like extendable batons for non-leathal situations and knives.

In my opinion one of the main reasons swords have faded from use is not to do with range, or stopping power, but to do with the high degree of skill it takes to effectively use a sword in combat. A sword is, if anything, a difficult weapon to use when compaired to a firearm.

Just take a look at the motor control needed to discharge a round into a target with a firearm and compare it to the motor control to use a sword to cut someone. That fact alone makes swords less useful in a military sense, because the time it takes to train a soldier to use a sword is prohibitive compared to training someone to use a simpler weapon, say a spear or in a modern context an automatic rifle.

In addition the process of making a sword is a lot more intensive and takes longer than making a firearm, though in some cases machine made swords are effective, look at coldsteel blades for an example.

So what does this mean in a cyberpunk setting?

1) Swords are for those people who are one of the following: Insane, Tough, Skilled, or Stylish.  With a heavy emphasis on stylish.

Street Samurai's are not street sams because they have a shiney sword, they are street sams because they adhear to a samurai-esque form of honour, and are highly skilled in combat matters. Most street sams use firearms, and the ones who do have a sword lug it about for style points, not actual combat use. Style over Substance.

2) Swords are expensive, supply and demand.

3) People would and SHOULD be more prone to using a firearm because it, by and large, requires less SKILL to use, and is far more useful to you in situations where your opponent is using a gun.

As the mixer addage goes: Never bring a sword to a gunfight.

And on Red one thing you will find is a lot of gunfights, drive-bys, and general shootings.

4) In terms of Sindome, there are probably about 25% too many swords out there, and about 90% too many players trying to use swords or machete. Reality is that most players should be striving for a big, nasty boom-stick. It is up to players to do this. There are PLENTY of guns ready to go into the game, all you have to do is stop asking for a bloody MK-23s. They are RARE things, the MK-23s, and if you silly gits would bend a bit you could all be  running around blowing holes in people with things like Walther PPK/s and 10mm autos and shit.

Hell, the GMs have a stack of Seburo's ready to sell if players just ask for them.

5) In terms of Sindome the damage ranges on fire arms are wonky, and the damage ranges on the katanas (due to popular request) need to be lowered. This will all slowly sort itself out.

6) And, finally, it is my opinion that the next alteration to combat should be some sort of range system.

Now, get back on topic. One hit kills, new messages, and my lazy ass still having not finished them. :)

For starters, even if you are an elite assassin with a handgun you have to be incredibly good to shoot someone directly in the head on a crowded street. Actually, its probably approaching impossible. So I think there should be some kind of ambient check. I'm all for "elite assassin enters cube, single shot to the head to two emaciated deckers" or "assassin enters cube, forces two punks up against the wall with pistol trained, binds their hands, makes them get on there knees then kills them execution style" that'd be very cool. BUT, "punk is standing on the street corner, assassin walks in from the west, you're dead".. would be very fucking stupid, in my opinion. Hrm, so the long winded point is..

there should be check to see what kind of location the one-hit kill is going down in. Crowded places = much more difficult, empty places = relatively easy.

(on a side note, with one hit kills I don't think you should be able to see how exactly you died...Might be cool if it just wasn't even displayed, and make it so you actually go investigate -how- you died. You might only just register that hand reaching into the coat and pulling out a gun, etc. then its over).

There are THREE things that ALL need to happen for a one hit kill. They are as follows:

1) A VERY VERY high skill level. And when I say HIGH I mean 'so far in the five years I have been on the MOO only 5 players have ever had a skill level high enough'.

So BB, don't worry, you won't suddenly find you and yours getting assassined to death.

2) A CRITICAL HIT must happen.

3) The ATTACK that is called has to be the highest skilled attack of the weapon. What does this mean?

Okay, I will use the Katana. There are 10 attacks written for the Katana at this time. Only the HIGHEST SKILLED attack (meaning you have to meet requirement #1 as stated above) on a CRITICAL hit in order to see a one hit kill. As far as I know the ATTACK that is CHOSEN when you are in combat is picked randomly or semi randomly from ALL 10. That means there is only a 1 in 10 chance that you will even call the attack that lets you do a one hit kill.

So, as you can see, the chances of seeing a one hit kill are RARE! VERY VERY VERY RARE! ASTRONOMICALLY RARE. Even if players had the skill level, it STILL requires a CRITICAL HIT and PULLING the attack that allows for a one hit kill.

EXCEPTIONS:

There are a few exceptions to this.

1) Weapons designed to do massive damage. IE: MP11, Sniper Rifle, etc.

2) Really tough players with higher than average hitpoints may SURVIVE a 'one hit kill' attack. So even a 'one hit kill' attack is not a garuntee of success.

And, finally, Wren and I went over the combat system breifly and it may not even be POSSIBLE as the system sits right now to do a one hit kill. We are trying to figure out how best to deal with it. Please, do NOT give suggestions, we have about five years of staff discussion on the matter. :)

I, personally, want one hit kills. I like the idea of someone lucking out and blowing the spine out of someone with a Sebbie.

BRAG LIKE FUCKING HELL IN THE MIX ABOUT IT! HELLO INSTANT STREET CRED!

(corpsec, you can brag to your corpsec buddies about the mixer you waxed.)

How would you be able to tell what style your character is though? I mean - if there's a choice between "supercool ninja swordsman" and "thug who prefers to hit people with the flat side of the blade and kill them that way" - who really is going to choose the latter?

It could come down to stat check (uh, skills check, even) - where if someone has longblade (or whatever) over a certain point, then they automatically become slick and polished... but that isn't *quite* what you were suggesting, I know.

*goes back to thinking*

Martial Arts is something that's being worked on as we can get to it, that one falls to the wayside as GM cycles are eaten up by plots and building efforts.  

In short, customizable weapon messages would be something that required more upkeep that we're currently able to afford.  We're currently  doing new messages for weapons based on skill and specialization, new more flamboyant attacks, attacks that do heavier damage. Disabling attacks will follow as limbloss is finished up.

Again as usual, this is just my view on things.

So, after having a number of complaints, statements, arguments, disagreements, and general discussion the following things are about to change:

long blade weapons will do less damage.

fire arms will do more damage.

These changes will happen over the next little while.

The shift for characters already established skill wise with the long blade will be noticable. The shift for players already established skill wise with fire arms will be VERY noticable.

The shift for unskilled players will be minimal.

Why this change? Theme. This is cyberpunk, not feudal Japan.

That is all.

Also with armor that stops bullets, say your  wearing the chest piece to an X05 which covers the chest and back, each succesive attack that strikes the back of the armor should weaken it, but only the back, the front would still be ok i'd think, so now we're breaking each piece of armor into sections according to each body part covered, applying hit points or whatever you want to call them, and have them taken down as each bullet hits each bodypart. which seems to be a bigger pain to a layman like me.

my two cents worth....

I agree with the fact that guns have a serious advantage over all ofther non projectile weapons, in a ranged attack.  But in close combat a blade has an advantage.  First of all, you can knock the barrel of a pistol AWAY if someone points it at you, but you can't really knock the blade away.  (Yes, you can knock the persons arm, but even trying that puts you at risk for someone with quick reflexes might chop off your hand).

There are many other reasons a katana would win in close combat, the ability to severe limbs?  What good is a gun in your hand, if your hand is lying on ground three feet away, and you've been blinded by the blood splurting from your elbow?

As we don't have ranged combat, or limb loss, these arguments mean nothing.  Guns are overall a more useful weapon on the streets of the mix right now.  But it's my opinion that if limb loss was coded, the lack of damage a blade would do, could be superceded by the fact that you might cut off or out someone's arm, leg, shin, neck, head, eye.

As Iga said, this is not feudal japan, it's Cyberpunk.  This is very true, but whats a big thing in CP?  STYLE, STYLE, STYLE!  What's worse then not only besting a foe with a superior weapon, but physically maiming their body, and leaving them alive for all too see as a mark of what happens when people fuck with you, WHILE looking fucking amazingly stylish, fast, and skilled?

A gun cannot offer you those kind of results!  Guns are pure firepower, and lack style in my opinon.  This of course, doesn't have anything too do with how much damage a blade should do, really.. but I felt that the argument was more like, lets make blades weak, because people are using them instead of guns..  I dunno, it just seems like that with the cost of a katana, and now, it doing less damage, that its not so much about balance and what would realisticly do more damage, and its more about stopping people from using them all together.

Who wants to pay so and so amount for a katana when it's only going to (in the hands of a skilled user) do damage similar to a gun of 1/4 the cost?  If were going to talk about realistic and stuff.. Is that realistic?  I can go to the martial arts store and buy a factory made, sharp, combat ready katana for $150 (US).    Sure it's not going too be GREAT, but thats still alot cheaper then it would buy  even a shitty ass gun at walmart, or any other gun store..

I dunno, I just don't see this being about balance as much as trying to force people to use guns because that seems to be the popular idea of whats CP.. I didn't mean for this too turn into a rant.. as it seems to have done.

</finish>

Many people in 'North Africa', apparently, to whom automatic weapons are readily available, nevertheless also carry bladed weapons because they serve their own particular function. I suspect RM is vaguely refering to the numerous militia groups active in some countries. Morocco doesn't suck. Egypt is doesn't suck. Tunisia doesn't suck. The machete is the weapon of choice for Triad's the world over. They regularly use them to dismember people without the bother of acquiring and operating a firearm, which can be a bigger pain in the ass then I imagine you might suspect in places where firearms are -banned-. Machetes have numerous benefits. Off the top of my head they are cheap, have the potential to be a silent killer, etc., etc.

Heh, sorry. I got this image of you being the hard shit and pulling out a pistol only to find a massive chunk of your arm missing from a quick handed butcher!!

Guns are not style.

Machetes are not style.

How you behave with either one of these things in the game would be what I would judge as regards style in Sindome. Yeah.. *snicker* people who use machetes are 'ninja wannabes'. Umm. What the fuck are you on about?

Not trying to argue any point here, just saying dont keep guns COMPLETLY (even though they probably can't do alot of limb loss moves like the katana) keep them out of the limb loss loop.

Like sliting the tendons on a hand, shooting a hole on the guy's hand, while it doesn't rip the bodypart off, it inutilizes it. Most guns do that. While a blade has a bigger chance or amputation it also can do it.

So I'd say we need both maiming that can be healed and amputation that needs cybernetics.

As for my comment on my uber armor and bone makeup, I was making a silly response to another silly comment which all relates to the blade vs gat issue.

I didn't bash blade users. I didn't bash anyone. I was just pointing out that in most cases, guns are a superior weapon. If your going to take a few playfull comments out of context, hey, that's on you.

Fuckin A. Didn't know this was such a touchy god damn subject.

I'm sure that someone with a machete would be more scary to someone if they were more highly skilled in combat tactics and the effective use of the weapons.  Not to mention supplies and possible armor.  The real reason the "wannabe ninjas" are "the suck" in this situation is because they aren't as highly trained as the soldiers with guns, nor do they have the same resources available at their disposal.  

Now if they actually -were- ninjas, even without the same amount of resources they might be able to put up a better fight.  

My point is (if I've even gotten near making it with the above), the effectiveness of a weapon in-game here on SD should rely mostly on the wielder's skill.  Which, with the addition of specialization and the refactoring of weapons, it WILL.  Eventually.  Some already do now.  Like katanas.  And MK23-s.  Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you're going to go out and pump that badass street-ninja full of holes.  You've gotta actually be able to shoot it and aim it and be faster than the sonuvabitch who's trying to dodge your bullets, running at you with a goddamn steak knife longer than your leg.

You've gotta have the skill to match.  But still, the weapon's gotta pack the right punch.  ;P

And Iga, the katana has a third advantage:  It does not make loud noises.

Quote: from Bixby on 12:55 pm on Oct. 20, 2005[br]
*ponders raising the silencer debate*

Make one!  :D

Oh, umm...tire iron.

(Edited by ReeferMadness at 7:17 pm on Oct. 21, 2005)

Allandra with her gun.

Pay the props whoever said they would.

Time was around 17:45 DST of December 2nd.

Quote: from Jinx on 5:50 pm on Dec. 2, 2005[br]And we have a winner on the deadly hit!

Allandra with her gun.

Pay the props whoever said they would.

Time was around 17:45 DST of December 2nd.

I think it was two, actually...but then again, I am kinda high.

On top of that, I didn't miss.  I understand combat relys on both stats -and- skills but, it seems unfair.  I realize that if someone starts shooting at me while I'm using a katana, they will probably kill me before I reach them.. but that does not mean that if I sneak up behind them and cut them before they can even -draw- there weapon, that my katana is going to do any -less- damage.

Instead of making katanas do less damage, which I see as being OOC, since guns are MUCH MUCH more powerful, even at very low skill levels, and for the most part, cost LESS than a katana, why not just give a bonus combat round or even two, to anyone who initiates combat with someone using a melee weapon (such as a katana, fists, brass knux, baseball bat).  

It could be assumed that since they are starting the combat, and are shooting, the distance between them and the person they are shooting at would have to be closed (by the person being shot at) before they could initiate an attack.

This way, if someone weilding a katana initates combat, it would be assumed they closed the distance between the person they were attacking -before- they started to attack.  So they would not lose any combat rounds.  So it's still worthwhile to carry a damn katana if you want to kill someone stealthily by sneaking up behind them.. or just catching them by surprise when there standing right in your face.

Of course, if the person weilding the katana were to sheath the katana and pull out a pistol, he wouldn't miss any more combat rounds, as both people would be using a ranged weapon.

here's how I picture it.

Bob is holding a gun.
Jack is holding a katana.

Bob swivels his gun toward Jack, finger on the trigger.
Jack spots Bob's action and starts running toward him.
Bob shoots Jack in the arm.
Jack sprints toward Bob, trying to close the distance.
(There could be a combat roll here, agil vs dodge or something to see if Bob manages to keep far enough away from Jack that he can't attack him.)
Bob shoots Jack in the foot.
(Jack manages to close the distance)
Jack slashes Bob with his katana.

I think this would be much better than just making guns more powerful, or making katanas do less damage.  I mean, realisticly, I think a highly skilled street sam is going to do more damage with his katana than a self taught amature that goes to the shooting range one weekend a month, even if that person has amazingly quick reflexes.

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:40 am on April 7, 2006)

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:41 am on April 7, 2006)

Edit in:

Making long_bladed weapons less powerful has several repercussions for players that use those weapons.

They don't do as much damage, which means it takes more combat rounds to kill a person with a blade.

That means that there are more combat rolls for that player.  It's a double penalty.  Not only do you do less damage, but the player your attacking gets more chances to DODGE your attack, and if they are using a pistol, then you have -less- chances.

Alot can happen in those extra combat rounds that happen because of the less damage.  

Backup can arrive for the other player.

They get more chances to shoot you.

They get more chances to grapple/disarm.

They have more of a chance to flee.

It just doesn't seem fair or balanced to me, at all.  The extra combat rounds that I talked about above would basicly have the same effect as lowering the damage a katana does, if the person you were attacking starts the combat, but it doesn't effect a long_bladed character if they are smart about it, and take the initiative, or use stealth and subterfuge to catch the other player by surprise.

(Edited by Nemisis at 1:55 am on April 7, 2006)

I don't complain when someone kills me with an MK in three shots while I'm wearing x05.  I don't complain when someone blocks my katana slash with a SEBURO.

I don't complain when I critically miss against a memento ganger on the first combat round with my new ceramic katana and it -breaks-.

I will complain though, when 12ue and a cheaper weapon gets me more damage than then uber-leet long_blade and specilization.

I tested my theory out today.  I attacked some memento gangers with a p7, they all died within 3 combat rounds.  None of the gangers hit me, and I did not miss once.

I attacked with my katana, under the same circumstances.. and I was hit twice, and I miseed three times.  On top of that it took 4 combat rounds too kill the ganger (with blood loss from wounds) and I did the katanas 'demon' attack which is as far as I know, they best attack katanas have.  

The times I didn't do the demon attack, it took five rounds.

Now, it looks like someone has over-compensated and made the long blades too weak to use.  

There should be a happy medium for this that both sides can agree on.

(Edited by InsaneRadical at 10:29 am on April 9, 2006)

(Edited by InsaneRadical at 10:30 am on April 9, 2006)

It's katanas that cost the same as a high priced pistol, that have messages that describe people getting cut to ribbons and only do the damage of a ruger that are the problem.

And you would think that slicing someone to ribbons would just as much, if not more, damage as a headshot from a firearm.

But the only problem with that is that if you made it so that if you sliced someone in the eck with a katana, they're done... they aint gonna be fighting for a while.

So there has to be a medium where it will do enough damage to match a gun, but not soo much that it dominates the gun and makes them so tough nobody fucks with the street samurai.

So ranged would look like this..

Bob has a gun.
Jack has a knife.

Bob swings his gun towards Jack.
Jack sprints toward Bob, trying to close the distance.

Bob shoots jack.
Jack runs toward Bob, trying to get close enough for an attack.

Bob shoots jack.
Jack slices Bob.

Non-ranged combat would look just like it looks now.

Jack lurches toward bob with his knife.
Bob levels his gun at Jack.

Jack slices bob.
Bob shoots jack.
etc.

Ranged combat only comes into play if the person who initates combat is using a ranged weapon.

IE: Is the fight taking place on a street, or outside somewhere?

That way, you don't go into ranged combat attacking someone in a cube/apartment or in a vehical, or in a jail cell, etc.

I'm vaguely aware that a year or so ago Wren contacted me to tell me he'd "fixed" a problem in the combat critical hit/fumble code. I can't remember the details, but I know he had singularly misunderstood the function of the code he had "fixed" which was meant to cause low/no skill characters to have a significantly higher fumble/critical fail rate than more skilled characters. From what I recall, he removed/changed the code that converted low rolls to automatic fails...

This may/may not be a contributing factor if low/no skill characters are proving dangerous in combat.

*invests UE in pistol*

I have to agree that postures were better off where they were in most senses.  I would go offensive for my combat round, defensive for when I was too take an attack, etc.

That's what made the system usable.  I don't see the sense in it the way it is now.