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Martial Arts Weapons

We've got a fair amount of guns and melee weapons in the game already, but we are missing a whole genre. This is not due to a lack of wanting to make these weapons or ideas on which weapons to do up, but rather a lack of knowledge in how to properly use them, what kind of damage is involved, etc.

What I am looking for is anyone that has experience with -ANY- kind of martial arts weapon(s) and could help or do up the combat messages and help with damage values. I'd love to get a few of these weapons made and out into the game.

If your talking like staves or knives held backwards (with the dull edge near the forearm and the blade pointing outwards, the actual point of the knife pointing down the arm) I haven't done much myself, but I have seen enough in action and done some with staves to be able to do messages. Damage would be different, however, I can definatly tell you that double knives or a staff in the hands of an expert Martial artist would be nothing short of near devestating. Those staves can break bones, and the knifes can tear people to shreds…
I think FS has a good idea here, and Luc is correct, someone well trained in MA would be devastating in the weapon they have been trained in.  I would like to point out however that in under a number of MAs a person as their training progresses chooses a weapon to become highly skilled in, and then study that weapon to the exclusion of all others.  I think this is principally important to look at when considering that just becuase someone knows say TKD, and they learned bo technique from that, that when you give them a shiruken they become almost useless.
Not always true… say you learn the arts of kicking major ass with the double knives (Kala knives in one form of MA I -think-...). You basically uses kicks, jabs, punches, spins, whatever the hell you want. You just have two blades near your forearm that you can block/counter/attack with. Then going to staves, its a bit more troublesome here, since you'd need to learn other ways to attack. But unless you want to create more skills (which would be pointless) then it'd be a history/player deal. If they decide to devote their time to a single one, fine. But if they were trained in several, go them. Its one of those things that the player needsa decide. (Then again, there could be a system where depending on your MA you can 'master' only a certain number....)

My 2 cents...
(I can do descs and messages too if needed FS.)

*AHEM*

I can help. Luc, we call that 'Ice-pick' style. I've trained for two years now in all sorts of weapons. Knives, 3ft staff, 6 ft staff, shuriken, sword, nets, kasari gama (basically a sicile), kasari-fundo (chain with weights on it), sai. Interesting thing about Sai (think Raph the ninja turtle.) is that traditionally they are used in sets of 3, one you throw and stab the foot, pinning the opponent, the other two you beat ass with.

I will glady help in this stuff. just send me an email/shout/sumpin with the weapon and messages you want written.

[email protected]

As to weapons, some people specialise, some arts do as well. Some people don't. *shrug* As to Callai, that is philipino stick fighting (2, 3ft staffs). I suppose there could be a knife fighting version. Dunno for sure.

Just a note: If yer expecting to hold MA up to some standard where you specialize in one thing, making your use of other things penalized, then we'd have to do that with everything. Being an expert gunman AND martial artist…if you got time to study both pistol shooting AND Martial arts, you got time to learn more than one martial art, or martial art weapon.

I can definatly tell you that double knives or a staff in the hands of an expert Martial artist would be nothing short of near devestating.

And to clarify, EVERY SINGLE OBJECT, in the right hands can potentially be 'nothing short of near devestation'. That fact has nothing to do with MA.

I'm not picking on anyone, just furthering some clarification.

ummm…well, that depends on the art as well. In Ninjutsu, you're movements and actions don't change if you hold a sword or a hanbo or nothing at all. ALL attacks are based on a series of leg works and *blah blah blah*

Just because you can shoot a gun really well doesn't mean you can't use a sword too. My Sensei is an expert marksman (trained and certified by H&K and Smith and Wesson), is in the Military, and is a 6th Dan blackbelt in Ninjutsu. He can use a sword or staff or knife or gun at almost the same level of skill, which is frighteningly good. But then, he's been at it for 20-30 years.

Frankly, If you give me a shuriken or a knife or a staff, I'll be able to use them all (though mighty shitily!). But that is because of the martial art I take. Kung Fu specializes heavely in a manner that requires you to learn entirely differant movement patterns to use a weapon. A Staff master would be less efficiant with a blade. But then Kung Fu is currently a tournament/display martial art. Ninjutsu is a war martial art.

One other thing, Multiple attackers. (Tonights class was a multiple attacker theme.) A good martial artist, hell a street brawler, can deal with multiple attackers. Currently if you are gang attacked, You only attack one person, then move on to the next when they go down. There are TONNES of techniques and movements that can take out 2, 3, 4 or more attackers at the same time. (Hatsumi has been attacked by up to 6-7 of his students and beaten them down with minimal effort, but that is why he is the Grandmaster.) Just brining that up.


Frankly, combat and martial arts can be infinately complicated. Compare Cappoera and Shoalin Kung Fu. Two completely differant martial arts, evolved out of differant situations. pit them against eachother. How would the fight work? Who would have the upper hand? Who would win? The infinite variables involved would kill the MOO. And frankly, right now there are no 'defensive couterattacks'. Combat is set up in a you hit, I hit, you hit, I hit system based on stat and skill checks. But really, If the average person throws a punch at me, I evade and counter attack. Then while they are stunned from the first attack, I continue to inflict pain untill they fall, die, cry for mama, or whatever. Throw me against another martial artist and it'll be nutter. I'll attack, he'll evade and counter, I'll counter the counter finding an opening, he will counter that, and so on. Combat is....well...probably the most complex and difficult thing to code realistically in my opinion. Just too much to deal with. So. For the mean time, or for all time if all the other MOO's I've seen are a judge, MOO's are you hit, I hit, You hit, I hit combat senarios.

I think I am done ranting now.

oh, wait....what was my initial point when I started this?!

Oh, yeah. Gally: You are right. There doesn't need to be a coded dissadvantage for specialization in a weapon/martial art. The penalty is that you have to sink gobs of UE into it to -GET- good. You wanna be good at sword, pistol, rifle, driving, SMG, explosives, and security systems. Well, enjoy the long wait till you are hot shit at it all, cause that is spreadin the UE around. Not to mention the stats you'd need to feed. Look at Nicadeamus. That guy has a fucking pile of skills, a pile of stats. Sure, long run he is more versitile, but can he take Devon or Gally or Lucifer or Casey in a fight? No. Can he beat Gally at appraising the street value of an item? Yes. Luc too. And Casey. That's just how your character is. You train in things, your UE goes into them. No need to code penalties, the experiance system has it covered indirectly.


Now that I have ranted and repeated myself at -least- three times, I am finito. And I laugh at Dominik in advance knowing full well he hasn't read all this, and probably missed all the insults I gave to him. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAaaaaaaa.....


Nic raises a very good point in that combat is very very complicated. There are so many different factors in many different situations that we just don't have the time, energy, knowledge, patience, etc. to take into account.

But in the end we all have to remember it's a game and we can only get so realistic. That's why people don't die with one gunshot wound. Sure we could make that happen, but probably wouldn't be much fun for the guy getting shot.

This brings us to how far we should go with martial arts in particular and how we pit different arts and weapons against each other. What can we realistically code and put into the game and what can't we? Something to think about…

Anyway…martial arts weapons...I think we should stick to functional, reasonable weapons...

no nunchuku, 'staff', etc...

I'd say keep shuriken, and swords for sure. I can see them as things that an assassin would use...

For those who are skilled in long staff, 'bo' whatever, code brooms, long pieces of steel pipe, etc.

Not that it's not feesible for nunchucku to be in there (make chains useable like nunchuku) but it'd be fun to have people beatin' with a broom (like carson doner used).

So what i'm sayin' kinda is that instead of 'martial arts weapons' we look at making skills more like 'long-blade':

'long_staff' (bo, broom, steel pipe)
'short_staff' (raton staff, ext. baton)

anyone got any ideas/thoughts on that?

canes.. an exellent weapon.. I mean, how many times has an old martial artist kicked the crap out of a bunch of young punks with a walking stick?

ok ok.. so what if I watch too much anime and kung foo movies..

I would like to see weapon specialization come into play at some point.

This would go beyond skill with a certain weapon-type, but would be special skill with a singular weapon that you have trained with. Your highly polished, daily cleaned H&K MP5. Or your favorite katani, the one you don't go on a run without. Granted, you'd be better with weapon-type of X, but you're at your best with your favorite.

thoughts?

I like the specialization deal… that, and the whole martial arts weapons idea. But heres another idea... we have a fairly decent (if not *gasp* GOOD) combat system... lets try and get some of the more mistreated areas up... I mean, lets get some non-coders turning out messages for different weapons and things, but lets also get buisnesses, permits/licenses (all sorts... from gun to buisness to driving), corporations, jobs in general. The people you see around the Dome on a seemingly daily basis are going to be the ones best suited for being a part of buisnesses that affect others. (IE: Bodyguarding, Security, etc.) Look at the WJF. Admin made good choices with Casey and Dominik, they are usually on just about every day... Now, I think it was Damon that wanted to get Section going... well, it was going, now its dead... It didn't Icly disappear... wheres it go from here? Corporations... we hear all about em, yet, no one (PCs at least) are a part of any...

Its just those things that would give more RP into the game, attract more people, give it more fun, etc....

Just my 2 cents....

Correction, I can't remember the last time I have logged on, but me a good choice for judge?  Don't stick your foot too far in you mouth there Luc, remember still on trial after what a month or two on the job?   Keep watching to see what happens….
I said you were good choices… I didn't say that you'd make good Judges. *snicker* RP and OOC are two different things, they don't really coincide. Then again, if you take a look at Casey... hes (in my opinion) a good judge player... Hes hardassed, arrogant, and deadly. Luc (if he wasn't branded) might've made a good Judge too, just a different type. He'd have been calculating, he'd act the same, and he'd also be deadly... RP has a huge role however... if Casey decided to RP that he runs around killing things with grenades... Guess what? Casey as a Judge dies, and Casey-the-murderer-that-the-Red-Team-(Gally, Luc, Nic, Cerebus, etc.)-gets-to-track-down-and-kill. (Damn... long name...)

My point has been made... Its a dull one. :P

I like the specialization idea…you get used to the grip of your butterfly knife, there fore becoming more profficient with it. BUT i think it should be based on amount of use...
theoretically if i had maxxed stats and only ever used an H&K 10mm, i would have a better proficiency than someone with maxxed stats and used various pistols.

I dunno if there's a way to log how much a person uses a weapon type yet or not. Maybe record '# of attacks with <object number>' or somethin'...

and Dom, you make an excellent Judge...totally adds to the RP.  And playing a Judge is a damn hard job. Just like any job, there are benefits and there are things that suck. The luxory of using grenades in crowded areas jsut isn't one of your benefits. It's illegal for Devon to do it yes...but he doesn't have superiors that monitor his behavior etc...

So you've made it fun...that's all that matters..


I like the specialization idea also.  The only suggestion I would make has already been made.  You get better with it the more you use it and gradually lose that bonus the more it stands idle.  It shouldn't be much of a bonus and there should also be weapons within the specific genres that are more difficult to use and take more time to get used to, causing penalties until you get used to it.
If you are going to set it so that the more you use a specific weapon, the better you get, and it fades with time. It would be only fair to have a dojo or place where you can train with it so you don't have to:

1) Constantly be a prick to PC's to get into fights
2) Don't go around offing NPCs
3) Kill newbies just cause you need practice.

A dojo could have like…training droids and robots and mechs and stuff, and you pay to use them. The higher the skill levels would need stronger and more expensive automated AI opponents. It could be like the training robot in Dune. Things like that. In fact, you could have punching bags for when you first start using your weapon, then on to a wooden block, then onto a simple automoton, then to a low end AI automoton, then onto a skilled robot, then to a bigass crazy machine. All that can cause yopu real physical damage. With a fee for renting, that goes up as you use it.

That way, in order to keep your skills with a particular weapon you have to shell out IC cash, risk IC damage (possibly death later). If you don't train, you loose skills with your favorite particular weapon.

I like that...yes...that is really fricken cool. That would rock.

One word.  Sparring.  learn it, love it, use it
I enquired to Stonemonk about opening some sort of Dojo but he went kinda… limp on me or quiet or something and I haven't heard from them again *sulks* I wanna Dojo!
Damon: Sparring with your favorite MP11 or Katana would get…messy to say the least.
Depends who your sparring with… I mean, someone could write a spar verb that in effect makes you throw punches, counter, block, but not inflict real harm. For swords, both people would need a blade, for guns, just fire at doors and stuff
I dunno if this's been brought up, but a friend told me that on ElseMoo, they had sparring and what they'd do is start fighting, aim for non fatal spots, and set macros so they could do it for hours without haveing to even watch it. They'd spar and heal etc….

Is there a way to code protection from that?

No need, healing here is what i like. It can't be done repeatidly, that, and the fact that ANY spot is fatal if you keep it up. Then again, all training will be done with UE most likely… having it assigned to areas that need it as you use skills... (if that even works... problem is everytime you walk you'd be boosting end, pcp, agl, etc... maybe stats should still be assigned manually, skills are assigned auto as they are used...) That, and the fact that if Joe is firing at Dominik repeatidly, Dominik is bound to start bleeding eventually... he's toast then
First of all I'd like to post a disclosure for anyone that this isn't obvious to at this point.  We are not EM.  I won't go into anymore detail than necessary but there are certain steps we take to assure this is quite true in all stages our of code and implimentation.  ie:  we think before ruining our MOO.  Secondly, it wouldn't be advisable to spar with a gun, nor would it be realistic.  That's what rifle ranges are for.  As for knives, swords etc, there would be a chance of doing serious and irrevokable damage to the person you're cutting up.  So if you wish to sit around and make macros, don't be suprised if you lose some limbs, some lives or something else nice and nasty.  Quite simply, this wouldn't be a way to become more skilled at something, just a way to become more comfortable using a specific weapon.  It's not a skill-boosting aid nor should it be treated as such.  RP is a key aspect of sindome and should always be treated as such.  If you wish to use macros and twink out code, there's a good chance big brother will see you and deal with it accordingly, and ICly.  Our admin act as such and spend time watching over the game as they should rather than spend time forming cliques and favorites and bettering their alts as much as possible.  In short, we don't ruin our MOO, we help it.
That is all,
–Damon
Welp I've got a wonderful idea for the sword-wielding folks:

Wiffle bats.

Beat shit out of each other to the point that the flimsy little plastic bats just break.. ya get a helluvalot of bruises and a couple broken bats.. but hey, it's just a beating, right?

*Turns inside out and disappears up his eshophagus*

Don't you people start throwing my subject off topic. I'm still looking for people (already got Nicadeamus) to do up accurate MA weapons.
Speak up boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen…
I said i would a long time ago, tell me what you want and you got it
Oh, FS, sorry this is taking me so bloody long. Six Foot Staff is about done. In fact, at some point tonight it should hit your inbox. or something.

Damon: Weapon specialization/favorites is great. BUT - you can learn how to use a knife withough hacking people open. It is called a 'Training Knife'. I have one. It's bright florescent green. You can train for sword work with Boken and Shinai. You don't have to practice on a person all the time, you can use a stationary target (like a judge! or a punching bag). It only takes you so far true, but it is better than nuttin.

What is ElseMOO? (Yes that is a serious question)

Gaston: Wiffle this!!


Lucifer: Not every spot is fatal ya fool! You're not gonna die if I keep smacking your pinky toe. May loose a toe, but not die. (I'm being sarcastic, I get what you are saying. Beat someones arm long enough and it'll stop working permanently.)

Other MA weapons on the go but not ready yet:

3 foot staff, boken, and shuriken.

Planed in the future:

kasari gama, kasari fudo, japanese fans (Sweet weapon, back in the day Female Ninja would have the tines of the fan made of metal, and cut the hell outtah dudes and stuff!)

At the moment I can't think of anything else really…


For those others who wish to do up weapons.. I'm not going to tell you what to do up, because I don't know what knowledge you have of these weapons. I am looking for people who are experienced with their use or can give some fairly accurate combat descriptions.

If you want to do something up that Nic isn't already doing, then let me know..
At the moment, we don't have code set up for thrown weapons (least not that I know of). This is one reason why we haven't seen throwing knives, shurikens, tomahawk, etc. in the game -yet- and I do emphasize yet, because they definitely will be coming. Just letting people know that are or would like to do up any kind of thrown weapons.

This is what I need from those of you working on this stuff:


  • Combat messages - attack, hit/crit hit, miss/crit miss, weapon specific kill msg.
  • Length of weapon
  • Weight of weapon
  • Detailed description
  • Also some idea of damage effects.. might have to discuss this specifically with you when I do them up.