"…as an aside: wanted criminals shouldn't be idling over 15-20 minutes in extremely popular bars."
Murphy, if you would clarify, or expound upon that statement, I'd appreciate it.
Four words: Kiss my greek ass.
A few more words: I don't bitch about how other people play the game or how they roleplay their characters, I expect the same courtesy. You don't like it, deal with it ICly. If you want the game completely realistic, then, like I've said before, I won't -need- to stealth. I can walk around however I please, because if someone tries to hit me with a melee weapon, as I have a gun, chances are I'll get to shoot first, and a 13mm slug pretty much puts you hors-de-combat. Hell, even a tiny .22, which won't kill you. It's real hard to fight with a piece of expanded lead in your body, especially the type that leaves an exit wound the size of a basketball court. But these things are ignored, for balance. Take it all or take none. Or even better, I can abuse the TERRA code instead and walk around with two dozen TERRA agents, lag the game, and kill everything that tries to stop me. Would that be better? Again, as I said before, I'm not going to idle in my cube, or putz around doing nothing to satisfy the queasy. I play this game to have fun, not to make you happy.
In the immortal words of Arnold Schwartzenegger, from the perennial 'Kindergarten Cop': STOP WHINING!
Now, as for Max, I'll try to be vague here to avoid IC info- I can't really mention specific events in detail, but those involved know what I'm on about.
In a general way, given the dynamic, real-time nature of the game, idling in public places is just naturally not a good idea. This isn't a MUSH, where you can take twenty minutes to type up full pagelength poses and wait an equally long time to wait for an answer. The game continues even when you're taking a piss or making your lunch in the other room. Of course, if someone is gunning for you, idling in a public place is a bloody stupid thing to do. No matter where you are, if it's a public place, anyone can get there, fairly easily at that.
Gotta hate it when that happens.
Everyone has their weakness. Even the steathiest ninja slips on occasion, revealing their location prematurely.
But when you rely on code instead of RP to keep you safe, and never come out of the shadows, you don't allow anyone else an opertunity to have any fun through RP with you. All they see is you appearing out of nowhere to kill them. Thus the reoccuring complaint.
People see all the other Judges being cock-sure, in control, and authorative. Except you. Your the sneaky hide in the shadows never seen but sees everything until it's time to kill someone type. Really you'de make a much better special-ops. This isn't a complaint: It's an observation.
Very few people, by your own admission, ever see any of your RP. So they assume that you have none.
Now do me a favor and reconize that I'm not trying to say you have none, and reply with a long defensive post about just how much you do RP.
Instead, realize that I'm speaking for the voice of the newbies, and the underlings, and the aspiring up and commers (the rest of the players), and stating what they see. Put yourself in their shoes for one second and think how they must feel: To everyone, you are invincible, and they have no hope of ever standing against you. They'de much rather RP trying to stand against you than just having you appear out of nowhere, Enforcer in hand, but they never get the chance.
Is this the reality of the matter? Perhaps not. But it's the perception. And in that respect they are justified in complaining, because their whole point for being here is to RP, and they feel cheated by your actions.
It's people's opinion. They're entitled to it. They're also entitled to voice it on the BgBB.
Your argument goes: I'm here to have fun. I don't bitch about how you play the game.
While this may be true, you also don't have anything to complain about. Anyone would gladly roleplay with you. Can you say the same about yourself?
The answer is no, of course not. It's not In Charcater for you to do so. You get to pick and choose. It's the king's perogative who he associates with.
So my advice is you put yourself in their shoes for a minute and realize where they're comming from, and instead of telling them to 'get over it', realize that they do in fact have a valid complaint as far as what their expecting from the game and what we adverties is concerned. They don't get from you what they get from everyone else in the game. They see this as an injustice, and you as a twink.
I'm not saying you are. I'm saying it's their perception, and one that they've come by honestly. And bitching at them to 'get over it' and 'stop whining' is only going to reinforce that perception in their mind.
I think your best course of action is to show them what your form of RP is. It's a suggestion. Take it or leave it. If you continue this way, your going to continue to garnish complaints, no matter how you justify your actions.
And please, don't reply about how all of these things about you arn't true. I'm not talking about the reality. I'm talking about the perception, and what other people see.
-Kevlar
I don't stealth to keep people from seeing me. Far from it. There's nothing I like better than walking up to someone and having 'em respect my character's authoritah. Or to gather info, I have plenty of other ways of doing that, too.
But.
If I don't stealth, I'll get a bajillion gangers on me every ten minutes. Which I understand, ICly speaking. I know I can afford a bajillion clones to go with it - But, hey, my character doesn't want to die. Most people treat dying as an inconvenience, I treat it as….dying. Dying is bad.
Furthermore, I can't go to Red incognito because everyone will instantly recognize him even though the few people who would know who he was out of uniform, are well....very few. Most of them dead and/or gone. But that doesn't matter to players. They'll still recognize him, and so will every NPC out there. Yet if Joe Bob kills a Judge and prances around in Judge armour, goes up and orders a drink, Rychek'll still give it to him. Even though he's dressed as a Judge. Whee. I don't like OOCly reminding people to look at me, that I'm out of uniform, that I don't look like a Judge, and that I don't have JUDGE tattooed on my forehead. It's annoying to have to do that. I tried it once or twice. Still had to stealth cos my character's name is apparently floating over his head.
But what that's trying to enforce is that you don't belong on RED. Your enemies with (almost) everyone down there.
All your doing is poking at a hornet's nest with a very long stick and then complaining when the hornets bitch about not being able to sting you. If I Judge comes snooping around the bars and low-life hangouts of RED, he DESERVES to get beat down.
-Kevlar
(Edited by Kevlar at 1:45 pm on May 15, 2003)
And yeah.. I think that more people should try to RP as charismatic, intelligent corpie folk instead of all trying to be Doctors and Badasses. I think we have enough of them as it stands..
(Edited by Aikao at 5:07 pm on May 15, 2003)
Alright then, I'll just stay on Gold and stare at my cube door. That's a *LOT* of fun. Hoo yeah.
No one is expecting/asking you to.
The key point of my post was: Show them RP, your style.
-Kevlar
Murphy is two people, he's Murphy, and he's a Judge. These two aren't the same. When he's a Judge, he's wearing the cold, impersonal Mask Of Authority™. When he's Murphy, well, a few people know what he's -really- like. Or maybe not. And what's the point of secrecy if you let everyone know?
At any rate, I'm barely on Red anymore. Barely. Just when the mood strikes me, or when I get bored. Actually, when I'm on SD, I'm usually on my PS playing through Xenogears for the sixtieth time. For all intents and purposes, I already stare at my cube door. Guess what, I -can't- RP with everyone. Impossiblo. No va. Everyone is on RED, and apparently, now it's a big no-no for me to go where people are. And when I can be there, I can't RP because I have to stay hidden, or six thousand zulus and/or Arteries will charge over the hills with their tanned hide shields and wooden spears. ULULULULULULU!! Just like in that movie!
Apparently, I'm now a leper and I have to live in isolation. Oops! There goes a finger!
I can RP with a very select group of people, and if they're the only ones who know anything about it, that's how it is.
Hey look, it's still locked! WOOOOO! Look at it go! I'll unlock it...then lock it again! Yeah! Payday is always exciting, I actually get to go outside! Yeeheehee!
Jesus. Like it or not, this is how I have to play now.
* The amount of attention given to WJF to ensure RP by the staff. Its a lot.
* NPCs need some sort of upgrade to 'fucking recognize' better
* Judge armor probably needs to lower stealth
We've tried to set it up so the Judges can do their job on RED, that is, to go to TERRA and pick up a captured crook or to go down, ready for hell, deadset on knocking down your hideouts door and fucking you up. We've made it clear time and time again, Judges do not 'patrol' RED. Thats for TERRA.
Now, NPCs and how they recognize. Right now, its -very- OOC, I'll admit it. They need to be able to recognize (or not) people by the clothing they wear. This means that we have to do some work so the NPCs can tell that your wearing a Judge uniform. Now, that imposes its own set of unrealistic conditions. Technically, there isn't anything stopping a tailor from making clothing that looks like WJF clothing to a PC. This means that once again, the NPCs have recognition that the PCs don't have. Granted, this could easily be addressed as being outside the rules of 'fairplay' and handled with a healthy trip to the $void. I muse.
Finally, Judge armor probably should be lowering stealth. I present a visual aid:
Now, gold on the left side of the chest, silver zippers shimmer in the light, the WJF logo is embroidered (think NASA mission badge) on the right shoulder. Doesn't it sound like it should reduce stealth some? What other clothing items could fall prey to this change? Again, I muse.
A sleek, black mesh bodysuit with raised kevlar bars on the knees and elbows. The Withmore Justice Force symbol is embroidered on the right shoulder. Polished silver zippers shimmer in the light, contrasting the dark material of the suit and adding a stylized pattern to the design. Attached to the left side of the chest is a small gold plate with, "Judge" etched into it.
now, that said. murphy has a different and -VERY- valid point.
how many judges are there in withmore? i�m not saying PC or NPC. i�m saying it�s a police force after all, now how many people are there on red? how many burly, bouncer, don't wanna be noticed tough guy guys are wandering around? ... and yeah, how many people are there that would know murphy's �face-? to be able to recognise him in a crowd of lurking and shadowy figures on red. a small amount, but even so of course he'd try to move around rather carefully and in the shadows if he's on red and NOT in uniform. people seem to assume when they see murphy in an area that he's sproting full judge gear AND his nameplate says murphy, without 1st looking at him.
that said, �any- judge that thinks that if they sneak, stroll, skip, or tango around red in their uniform they won't be seen, is silly. this has nothing to do with the fact that the uniform lights up the night and prevents him from lurking, as he said, it's a sleek, protective black body suit with bits of metal and a name (last time i checked, heh.) so it's quite -decent- at blending in with the darkness. and as some people know, getting your hands on a judges uniform isn�t impossible, so the nameplate can mean nothing. it�s not glowing neon and lighting up alleys. ok it has glowing red eye sockets. but it�s not -really- a visibility matter, it�s the fact it�s easily -recognisable- as a judges getup. wich is why i think so many people have issues with a judge lurking on red, it's not the judge, it's the uniform that should be the problem. at some point most of us have seen other people hide in illogical ways and have hiden in such ways ourselves...
that of course doesn't address the problem that people instantly tend to recognise him as THE judge named murphy from a room away.
hrm, next time you see murphy, or anyone for that matter, �look� them�. shouldn�t that be the first thing we do when starting up RP with someone anyways?
yesh, time to go chase down some prep school girls.
yar!
Quote: from Bias` on 7:14 pm on May 15, 2003[br]
yesh, time to go chase down some prep school girls.
yar!
Kinky!
Quote: from Murphy on 4:09 pm on May 15, 2003[br]Don't get me started on ninja strip club owners.
No, actually I'd love to get you started on ninja strip club owners, because all that will do is prove my point and show your ignorance of things as they stood.
Back in the realms of ninja strip club owners, those of us who could become one with the shadows were few, now they are many. At that point, the three of us who really used stealth, had ic historical reasons for having some degree of stealth. Also, the strip club owner bit was the end of that little saga, and bore no significance to anything.
I was making a light hearted quip, but sure, if that's the road you want to go down, then let's go down it.
You're saying essantially that you've traded up a skill, for ooc reasons. You can't RP much. Cry me a river man, seriously. You're playing a character with a great many ic advantages over most other people, and you just have to accept that there may be negative sides to that, too. If you're bored, don't look for new ways to take your character places he plausibly shouldn't be going, go pick a fight with someone and lose, then go to the light and hit chargen.
Or discuss the possibilities of being allowed to take a break from your character to play something new with admin.
I really, truely, think too many people get way too attached to thier UE, and ic status. Let go, join the rank and file again, because honestly I can say it's so much more fun to approach the game from a new angle having spent so long looking at it through your characters eyes.
Let me just make this clear. I'm not attacking you Murphy, player or character - simply pointing out to you, that perhaps what you're doing is trying to keep swim ming when you've already hit the beach. Chill out, do something new, you'll get to RP with people you'd otherwise probably never do more than shoot.
Kudos to all for keeping a level head discussing such a sensitive issue.
I'll only add one thing to this, and as seems to be my position, I'll disagree with Murphy on -one- point. �And that is your idea that just because you can't go to RED, you can't RP with people.
Admittedly, once a REDite knows you are a Judge, RP is difficult as by nature, any self-loathing scum from RED would sooner kill you than drink free beer from you. �However, all that means, is that you need to be, and I believe you've stated this before, sneaky.
If the RP you're looking for is social, change your SIC ID and offer a free round at Grunen's. �I'm sure there are some corpie wannabes who would take you up on that. �If it's professional, develop some IC sources of information. �Some RED scumbag willing to look past the badge for a fat paycheck. �I -know- for a fact those people exist. �Also, I know that I've tried to initiate RP with you on a couple of occasions, only to be answered by silence.
Am I saying I'll go have a beer with you? �Well, I guess that's a question you'll have to find the answer to yourself.
Any good RPer will (or at least should) look past what your name is in the description of who is in the room, and if they don't well, shame on them. �I make it a habit to only acknowledge people I've met and know on sight. �I wouldn't know Murphy from Pratt or the other 64,999,921 people in the dome, and while I've seen people do otherwise, I would hope that bringing this to light will help to eliminate or at least reduce any OOCness like that.
As for taking a break, maybe that's an option for you, maybe not. �I can say for myself, that when I began playing my current character, I was (and still am) completely enthralled with him. �I went from someone who was ready to quit, to a pretty regular player.
Change of scenery might do you good, and while I can't speak for the PowersThatBe™ I would say that if it were me, I'd rather honor a request like that than to have a player run a character he seems bored with, or could use a break from.
And also, King, I knew (and know) a lot of things ICly, both past and present, as well as filled in some blanks from my imagination and deductive ability, but that's not fit for discussion on the boards here. S'against the rules. Whether, at the time, I was wrong or right about 'em, I'll never know now. But I suspect a lot of what I know/know was/is true. There's no way to find out anymore.
I didn't raise stealth *strictly* for OOC issues, I raised it because I was being jumped by gangers whenever I was on foot. Now they can't see me, they can't get me. And as much as I'd -like- to crash the cruiser into the Drome, that don't work. (But it'd be funny as hell.)
As for taking a break - I'm not saying I'm *bored* with Murphy. Not at all, I'm discovering new levels to him all the time. Or am I saying I don't like having to stealth. What I'm saying is, I have to. But still, this discussion did give me a new outlook on a couple things, and I'm sure I'll be able to find a way to sneak around wherever I damn please while still maintaining a much higher level of IC decorum, if that's what has you concerned. Doesn't mean how I play is gonna change, or what happens, but my modus will, just a tad, I think.
And Max (me being vague again), a helluva lot happens behind the scenes that (I hope) stays between a very few number of people and maybe an admin or two if they're watching. Basically, I'm not bitching about not getting RP, I'm bitching at people's bitching (or what I perceived as such, rather), which is all I usually find worth bitching about. Of course, people go off on tangents, and I'm no exception.
And as for what Johnny said about busting down doors and kicking ass…I haven't busted down a door (or kicked any ass but overly aggressive NPC ass) in a good long while. So again, I find other ways of doing things.
At any rate, Murphy still has a lot of serious, important loose ends to tie up before he disappears from the Dome, you betcha. My playing Murphy, and your playing your characters, is a story. It ends when you stop playing the character, either by death or by choice. And at this point, I think Murphy is not *quite* at the end of his little tale. And there are a lot of other ideas I might like to explore with Murphy, if I ever get sick of this Judge biz (which I haven't).
And as I've said before, any players, admin, or anyone got any questions or comments they don't want to make on here, my AIM and ICQ are right there. Just clean your damn fingernails before you start typing to me, it's like online halitosis. Yeck.
I just dislike stealth in general.
It's lost it's impact a lot since everyone and his dog started using it - It used to be that someone would loom from the shadows and people would be afraid. now, someone looms from the shadows, and everyone starts comparing two-tone ninja boots and tales of how they snuck up on someone and said 'boo'.
Fuckers.
:)
Sometimes I follow them because I want to know why. I mean, it's suspicious.
As for everyone in SD sporting a good stealth skill, I have this to say: Does it really make sense for your character to want to hide all the time? Does it really make sense for your character to even know how to if they need to?
This goes back into the histories of the players' characters as well as any experiences they may have picked up during the Dome. People should think about whether or not they are supposed to have these skills according to their character's past experiences. Personally, I think that anyone who does otherwise, though they are perfectly ABLE to do so given the game's mechanics, is nevertheless a Twink�.
As for following someone when you see them sneaking around? Well, go right ahead if they're in an area with no ambient population, because it'd make sense for you to see them (Because well.. With thermo-vision, wouldn't you see many/a few people if there were -any- ambient population? I might be mistaken, but I'm assuming that ambient population density may not be a factor in the various infrared accessories found in the game). If they're however, in a highly populated area, then ah.. it doesn't make sense at all for you to be able to see them.
Didn't realize it helped perception in any way..
It's not spotting a certain someone with my thermo right before he/she/it unhid that made me realize it.
Thanks for clearing a few things up, however.
certain chars have a good amount of experience being stealthy in different situations (yesyes as has been said, either in their history or �dome experience�).
lurking in a room, sneaking through the sewers and moving through a crowd all take a different approach�
hrm, is it fair to say that certain places/items of clothing are more appropriate for certain chars to be stealthy in or �blend in� in then others� and certain places are more appropriate for a char to �see� or notice if something is odd. � and it �really- is up to our OOC brains to not twink out? :-P
that said� i really don�t see it as being �that- bad most of the time�.
*hrms* maybe it�s because i really don�t see� heh
but the flat blacktop roofs and the hallways with a single potted plant in them� that�s another story.
*dons ninja boots and �yars!�*
kidding.. kidding..
Quote: from Bias on 10:45 pm on May 17, 2003[br]
but the flat blacktop roofs and the hallways with a single potted plant in them� that�s another story.
Even then, there's a certain way to see someone stealthing down a bare corridor - what if you're sneaking up behind someone? How do you know where the other guy is facing? In which case, all you're doing is being vewwy vewwy quiet (because you're hunting waccoons). On the other hand, if he's facing you, staring right at the door you're coming in through, how can you stealth?
That's why stealth is a very general, abstract, and ultimately arguable skill.
