Why Wren Had to Leave

He accepted a programming bit on a MOO that has a similar theme and former staff members. He did so without consulting with me and then didn't tell me after the fact. I discovered it when he accidentally sent Rastus a moo mail in the wrong telnet window. This single act caused me to look at his actions over the past few months and wonder just how benign he was being.

He'd been listing and viewing code in various bits of the game. I had earlier asked him about his activities and he told me it was so he could learn more code and teach Dominik (his IRL best friend) how to code. I made it clear to him at the time that Dom was working on a MOO that was a conflict of interest with us, and that I had reservations about his using SD to teach Dom because of this. We discussed the matter and I agreed that it would be OK to list the verbs that came with the basic DB we got from the Lambda FTP site oh so many years ago.

With this new found realization that Wren had a programming bit in this other MOO, I had to consider the fact that for the past 2 months, Wren -could- have been listing more sensitive portions of our code and using bits and peices to further his work elsewhere. I don't monitor everything 24/7 and the odds are that he could of done it quite a bit. Since I have no way of knowing if he did or didn't copy parts and I have no way of knowing that he -doesn't- have an adminship on the other MOO, I can't let him stay on the team in good faith.

A long long time ago, this was a serious concern between Cybersphere and Sindome. One of the first questions often asked of new staff is if they have an adminship on any other M*s. As Wren said in his message, he 'fucked up' and really put me in a tough place. This wasn't the first time I had to make such a decision. Its not something I relish, not something I'm proud of having to do and not something I want to have to repeat.

I hope Wren helps the other MOO go far, he's got talent.

~ Johnny :sad:

By Johnny at Aug 17, 2003, 1:19 PM | 0

Alright, this has now gone on far too seriously long enough by half, okay?!

Since Rastus is banned, with his blessing I am hereby posting an official-like reply as a staff member and representative of the other MOO, whose name shall not be mentioned to be all polite and shit.

First and foremost, Wren received his progbit yesterday afternoon, on the understanding that he was no longer considered active admin on SD. The understanding of Wren no longer being active on SD was a decision Johnny had made and stated several weeks ago and we initially refused Wren's application for a progbit to allow a cooling off period from his departure.

Secondly, I don't know Wren all that well, but I and the rest of the elseMOO staff have complete and utmost confidence that he most certainly would NOT steal any SD code.

Thirdly, I'd like to repeat here something I've said on our own boards:

WE ARE NOT AN SD CLONE.
WE ARE ALSO MOST CERTAINLY NOT A CS CLONE.

We are a completely different MOO, and in fact, the only things we have in common are the lambdaMOO db and the cyberpunk theme. Alright?
We are a different MOO with different concepts, designs, game philosophies and ideals, and most importantly, different code, (with the exception of some code supplied by Johnny, with his full consent.)

We do NOT want to steal your code and most certainly would not dream of taking away your active admin.

Fourthly, I am fucking SICK and TIRED of the fucking enmity that I see developping between our respective MOOs. It is immature, retarded, and far too CS-like for my liking.

Surely, we'll share part of our playerbases in the future. This does not mean that we are competing. Our MOOs can very much thrive and coexist together because, while we will both provide a cyberpunk-themed roleplay environment, our game mechanics and policies will be so different that they will indeed provide a totally SEPARATE experience.

There is no reason WHATSOEVER for political bullshit to fly between the MOOs. Period.

One thing that we will have which will be superior to SD is our spelling. :wink:

So let's all be fucking civil and friendly, okay? Do we really want another retarded SD-CS style feud on our hands?

-Your friendly neighbourhood Guardian.

By Murphy at Aug 17, 2003, 3:02 PM | 0

Yea, Murphy pretty much hit it on the nail…

One clarification... about the time that Johnny no longer considered me an 'active admin'.,(He called my chopped liver if I remember correctly.) I was talking to Dom and he told me about the other MOO.

I talked to the wiz of that other MOO, and asked about getting a prog bit over there so I could continue to code and learn to code... something I hadn't done in a while.

His response was basically that he did not want any active Sindome admin on his staff. More so, I wouldn't have a bit in the near future, to make sure I wouldn't re-adjust and become active on Sindome again.

I thought the policy was, to be honest, very mature. So to anyone who wants to think I was plotting against Sindome, no. I just wanted to code. :P Regardless, I've had the bit on the other MOO for just under 24 hours at the time of this post... so there ya go.

Viva la... whatver.

By Lucifer at Aug 17, 2003, 3:29 PM | 0

Actually, if I remember right, you called yourself chopped liver. Johnny used the term 'family'.

By Murphy at Aug 17, 2003, 3:30 PM | 0

That's funny. I havn't seen any animosity between the MOO's to date. Perhaps I'm out of it, or simply don't care.

The only thing I've ever seen is certian members of the other MOO complaining about how we run our MOO. Mostly people telling us things like 'It's a simple solution to code' and things like that. Oh, and a fair bit of dick wagging. But no real 'MOO based animosity', just old quabbles that people refuse to let die.

There's room for 4 CP roleplaying enforced MOO's in this world. The internet's a big place. No one on this end has ever wished it otherwise. In fact, if anything, we welcome another addition, as we are fans of the genre.

I was also of the impression that while it's aimed at being 'different and set completely apart' from SD, that it was in fact based at least in some part on an older version of the SD database. This seems like a logical thing to do, seeing as how SD does have some very useful additions to Lambda in the form of libraries which can be easily seperated from the IC aspects of the SD world. So to think that someone might want to 'update' aspects of said libraries with our work is not a far fetched thing to suspect. Especially when the person being suspected is caught in a lie of omission.

Please, correct me if I'm mistaken on any part of this.

-Kevlar

By Kevlar at Aug 17, 2003, 4:14 PM | 0

I'm informed that we're wrong about it being based on an old copy of the SD DB.

By Johnny at Aug 17, 2003, 4:16 PM | 0

I don't know jack shit about code, so I consulted our MOOKing.

The Rastus speaketh:

Rastus says, "For the record, we (I) started out with a pure 100% fresh lambda db from whatever the addy is for the lambda ftp server, the -only- exact code we have from SD is that which has been ported across with Johnny's consent ($scheduler), that which isn't exclusive to Sindome (the OOC channel system) and a number of search utilities which I've offered to remove and Johnny hasn't (yet) required me to do so. Aside from that we have -some- code that may bear vague similarity to code on SD by virtue of the fact I learnt my "trade" there (ie, something comparable but significantly different to the RP_info system)"

Rastus says, "In all actuality, I've never had a copy of the Sindome DB in any form (although I did at one point claim to, so I guess I can't expect anyone to believe me there, *shrug*, whatever…)"

Rastus says, "However, if Johnny would like to "visit" our MOO and carry out checks to confirm these facts, I'll make the necessary arrangements."

By Murphy at Aug 17, 2003, 4:30 PM | 0

Perhaps based on an old copy is too strong a concept.

(with the exception of some code supplied by Johnny, with his full consent.)

My point is that any work Johnny may have agreed to export will undoubetedly have or will undergo some upgrades in our own DB, and that work is valuable, regardless of what DB your running.

Personally, I would love to have open communication and positive, mutually benificial relationships between the admin of all the MOOs, but others see it differently, and refuse to let old grudges die peacefully. This will ultimately lead to no positive benifit for either side, as we have witnessed this exact situtation once before and know the ultimate outcome. As the seniors in the field we do try and set the example for the up-and-commings, and have been sucessful in bridging the gap with other MOO's staff in the past, which did result in mututal benifits. But it is a two way street. Sometimes all it takes one bad apple to ruin the recipe.

-Kevlar

By Kevlar at Aug 17, 2003, 4:30 PM | 0

I think I feel a group hug coming on!

:werd:

By Murphy at Aug 17, 2003, 4:34 PM | 0

*has no real part in the dispute of Johnny, Kevvie, Lucifer/Wren, Dominik, or Rastus's agent Murphy :P*

All I gots to say is "Fuck em"

Peace to all, and to all a good night.

By Kain at Aug 17, 2003, 7:27 PM | 0

Fuck who?

I'm gonna have to jump!

By Hirononbu at Aug 17, 2003, 7:55 PM | 0

<== wondered what happened to lucifer..

thanks for cleairing that up kain.

By Tool at Aug 19, 2003, 6:05 AM | 0

Woo!

I cleared something up! This is indeed a great day…

By Kain at Aug 19, 2003, 5:42 PM | 0

Interesting.

By Iga at Aug 20, 2003, 2:56 PM | 0

Yes…quite...

By Kain at Aug 21, 2003, 10:05 AM | 0

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