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I've heard some banter on the clone/update cost situation. With the increases in prices for clones and updating raises some interesting issues, and this includes IC issues and that encompasses RP. With clones and updates it can be seen as a reasonable cost increase due to the theme and technology behind the cloning operation and 'rebirth'. I think there are pros and cons that come out of this.
With clones being more expensive to purchase players may take a moment before engaging in RP that is determined to end in violence. Death is expensive, aside from losing any gear etc. Calculated violence to an end will probably take the forefront rather than mindless cruising for a fight. A lot of the twinks who run about whacking anyone they can find, including sleepers, won't last long. They won't have the cash for a clone. This won't stop them from coming back with another character and doing it again, of course, but that is another issue. The sociopaths who are determined to survive on the IC -high- of killing other characters will be slowed down due to the possible repercussions of getting hunted and killed themselves and the expense. The other advantage to the increase in costs is it will force players to actually go out and acquire gainful employment ICly. A larger pay packet requires RP and a real job (not necessarily legal), which is always good for the game. Perhaps making death as costly as it will be will spawn a larger skill base in characters, forcing folks to think about histories and long term goals.
On the flip side of this is that characters who are experienced and have very healthy skills/stats and bank accounts will find it far easier to perma-kill other characters. A character who has a serious run in with serious character could end up being perma-dead in a week with three encounters running at 15K. How will this effect gruff RP? Less combat initiated from newbies but more initiated from experienced players? Take Joe Deck-Head who gets some lip from another citizen in the mix because he's had a bad day so he returns the favour, and next thing he's stepping out on Gold in a nice plastic jumpsuit wondering what the hell happened. He has no real combat skills because he's a geek, so it might be a valuable lesson. He's out 5K now. Next thing he knows the citizen he had the lip exchange with crunches him again and he's gone permenantly. What I'm saying is that the more experienced players have to exercise a little restraint. Take into account histories and skills and stats of course, but temper that with a contribution to the game as whole. Most people don't play the game to be king of the hill surrounded by skulls, to me that's PKilling in its simplest and ugliest form. I personally want to RP with interesting and diverse characters, and they don't necessarily have to be your allies or IC friends. Having a nemesis or two is fun RP, as long as it doesn't always eventuate in people getting killed simply because the opportunity is there to kill.
The increase in clone cost is, in itself, a logical and sustainable decision. Just how the players size up to this IC evolution is where the issue sits.
By Preacher at Mar 26, 2002, 11:41 PM
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NEWBIE
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So many people complain about things costing too much IC, but really think about it. If you have decent charisma you can do six or seven runs for Bruce a day and make an average of five hundred or more a run. That's three grand a day. If you can make three grand a day you can afford to pay a grand to update your clone.
Just think about it all in terms of the exchange rate that one of the admins, I think it was Johnny posted on here a couple months ago.
By Tash at Mar 27, 2002, 12:20 AM
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BATA
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Well im kinda glad that the price of clones in going up. Why pay a 20k fine if you can choose clone death and only end up paying 2k for a clone? I mean 5k for a clone isn't that much at all. Like Tash said there's Bruce and there's even SHI for the people who are deperate and have low charisma. And the only thing i have to say about RP is why risk your life if there is no gain? I'm just saying if risk outways the reward wouldn't you decide against that course of action in real life? Being able to clone and just go back to what you where doing lulls people into a false sense of safty. people arent afraid to die in-game. Maybe with more expensive clones they'll think twice about picking a fight or doing some other stupid thing to get themselves killed.
By allandra at Mar 27, 2002, 8:36 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
Exactly why I pushed for the raise. Putting out a bounty or fining somebody, when a clone is far less costly is fucking stupid and a cop out. Pure crap and I won't have it. Don't expect the prices to drop and yes.. money isn't that damn hard to come by so stop complaining. (heading off those of you who usually do)
By FireStorm at Mar 27, 2002, 8:42 PM
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I like it where it's at…but FS tying some shit together here for ya....
You want more crime....well there isn't enmough incentive to be a criminal....and in you raise the clone costs, then no one will commit crimes if they think they'll die
By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 10:46 PM
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I agree with everyone here. �I agree that there isn't a whole lot of incentive to be a criminal, that raising cloning cost is a good thing and that money is easy to come by. �
I have a personal belief that those that happen to die a few times and come back cloned… give it a rest and start a new character. �Try being a player gang member and starting crap! �If you guys want to see violence, then forget your cushy characters and get violent! �Anyone can sit in a safe place every day leechin UE and running around gaining income and make a cushy character that they dont want to see die. �Whats the fun in this? �
I see the whole point of this M* is to have a reckless good time and try to get away with as much as you can. �Screw the people that have been here for 4 years and have the same character. �If you have a desire to see something changed, then change it for yourself! Ok, I'm calmed down....
I realize some people like to have a long lasting character and enjoy a nice quiet RP every now and again... but look people... you're in the dome.
(Edited by Frank at 7:29 am on Mar. 28, 2002)
By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 7:22 AM
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NEWBIE
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All this talk about incentive to be a criminal….You guys think that the admins should make things easier to get away with so people wil commit crimes?? Fucking commit smarter crimes. THink about what where who and how you do things before you do. You want to commit crimes like pickpocketing? Make sure your skill is high enough to get away with it before you try it, or be prepared to face the consequences.
By allandra at Mar 28, 2002, 10:15 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
Not getting caught….there should always be as good a chance as getting caught, thye only way around should be being smart.....but there is no reason to beone
I can live loing by doin runs or workin at SHI, and no crimes....so why would I want to commit a crime? I wouldn't....but if I could make 6k a run, pushin drugs for Mr Dru Gie, yeha i got a chance of getting busted, but I'm makin 20 times what you get from bruce....
It doesn't pay to be in crime, that is the problem
By Dominik at Mar 29, 2002, 9:14 AM
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282 posts
As far as im concerned the only reason it doesn't pay tobe a criminal is becasue no-one has taken the intiative to make it. We can't rely on on the admins to give money away. Get out there and make some ways to make that chyen. Think you'd so well as a drug dealer? Then work out ic'ly how you'd get the drugs find people to move them for you. I see alot of people out there with that haggard look to em. The only thing is you gotta have a plan to open shop. I was talking with someone in-game justthe other night aabout all of this. Get up some funds rent a space at the mall on green or somewhere else. Use those backrooms all the shops got. Get a couple of gophers to move your product. If they talk take a contract out on them with our friendly niehboorhood assasin. There's money to be made in the game but not if your afraid of losing a your character. You have to take into account that even in real life you run the risk of getting caught. And what if you get caught selling drug? Clone death, your product siezed? Your only shutdown untill that next shipment gets in and the heat dies down a bit. Look at some of the fixers in game. As WJF i've tried to bust them but as there important to the dome and to RP the admins protect them as much as they can. I mean because the guy is carefull and doesn't mess up i cant get enough of a case to get any admin help (ie wire taps surviellence equip) Get out there and take the intiative people. You whine about crime not paying -TAKE THE INTIATIVE AND MAKE IT- Dont rely on the admins to be the drug kingpin make yourself the head man and hire some flunkies to take the fall.
By allandra at Mar 29, 2002, 12:06 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
I'm gonna try to say as much as I can without saying it here….but alla you say that....have you tried? Newbs down't wanna die so soon, and vets don't wanna lose their friends....fi some PC decided to push drugs, most of his friends would turn on him....besides getting some drugs and pushin those outa a back room is basically a fixer....there needs to be hit men, get away drivers, car theives, more crime
we have fixers and dealers, same thing....it doesn't pay to kill a corp, or a ganger.....there is no reason to be a criminal
One reason people commit crimes is to make easy money, tryin to push drugs under a cops nose isn't easy, and there is little demand, you hve the haggard look if you do drugs ONCE, so there isn't much demand....
Make it pay and crime will explode....GM's should just give out huge sums of money, but some is needed to pull people in
By Dominik at Mar 30, 2002, 11:10 PM
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282 posts
[br]
it doesn't pay to kill a corp, or a ganger
Obviously not. If you go out into the street and kill someone, what ya gonna get? Keys, bits of paper, and maybe 20-100 bucks, a wallet. When someone kills someone else it's: a)mental disease b)impulsive, personal issues c)hired by someone to do it
You wanna be a hitman? Go on over and register at Fugitive Trackers. Or find someone who wants someone else dead.
[br]there is little demand, you hve the haggard look if you do drugs ONCE
All that's needed to make the drug market lucrative is coded addiction. A while after your second or third high, your stats start dropping, you get 'wounds', the whole withdrawal thing. Have Detox be more expensive than the drugs, and you'll have junkies wanting to quit but not being able to afford to. Since stats will be dropping (temporarily till the next high, of course), addicts will be desperate for their dope of choice. Some of them will resort to stealing, and even killing people, just like real life.
By Murphy at Mar 31, 2002, 9:19 AM
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LEGEND
951 posts
just curious, but is there more then one type of drug around the dome?
moo
izy
By Bias at Mar 31, 2002, 9:51 AM
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GATO
568 posts
There's four or five that I've seen.
By Murphy at Mar 31, 2002, 9:57 AM
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LEGEND
951 posts
Murphy I completly agree with everything you said…..but if y ou died, your mind is implanted in another body, so there goes the addiction....I'm just saying there is LITTLE incentive to be a criminal...and if you don't agree....blow me
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 1:29 PM
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282 posts
There is little incentive to be a criminal, as there is in real life.
A friend of mine was a heroin dealer. He made maybe 1000 bucks a week for a year. He then spent 5 years inside. Great trade, eh? Another friend of mine, when I was in high school, stole a few cars and spend a few years in a youth correctional institute. �He made about a hundred off each car he stole. Big fucking deal.
The reasons people break laws:
a)Person is poor and cannot get a job
b)Person is an idiot
c)Person thinks he can get away with it (and is most often wrong)
d)Person -can- get away with it because person has a lot of money.
Successful criminals, in the real world, are not hitmen or goons. They're fraud artists. Embezzlers. Business crime.
Realistic incentives to become a criminal would go along the lines of limiting the number of people who could work at SHI or Bruce. Make it hard to have money and pay the rent, then more people will resort to crime, because they'll have no choice.
Or they could take away Judge's guns and give us flower baskets instead.
As fir the clone-drug thing, well, killing yourself to get rid of an addiction because you have a clone is just plain bad roleplaying. Why make rules to accomodate people who can't roleplay properly? And besides, many drugs addict you psychologically, not physiologically. So if you update while you're addicted, you're still addicted when you come back.
blow me
Go get some ribs taken out and blow yourself, I don't swing that way.
Edit: Oh yes….I almost...forgot...I mock...your....punctuation
(Edited by Murphy at 7:11 pm on Mar. 31, 2002)
By Murphy at Mar 31, 2002, 4:07 PM
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LEGEND
951 posts
Thank you Murphy and Allandra, you've both kept me from having to respond to all of these posts regarding crime and what not. Murphy is absolutely right.. petty crime doesn't pay in real life either, otherwise more people would be doing it. The chances of getting caught are too great for the most part and consequences are severe (sound familiar?)
The people in Withmore who've made lots of money from what they do aren't the ones out there stealing from stores or pickpocketing anyone who walks past. If four or five newbies got together and decided to make a corner of red their hangout, then mug anyone who walked through.. that'd certainly make things more interesting. And yes, if said group was RPing and making a genuine effort to build up a small gang they will receive some sort of admin assistance to get going, since I've yet to see anyone with the initiative to do something like that. And don't give me that bullshit response that crime doesn't pay again. If you use your head and THINK it can pay. Fuck over your friends, fuck over your enemies. Honestly.. the money can be made and things acquired if you use your head.
I'll take an example from my time ElseMOO. A prominent player's apartment was robbed blind of everything.. top of the line armor, weapons and very expensive decking equipment. It finally comes out that the people who did it were close friends and working together at the time. Nobody had any idea except for those people that pulled it off. I've seen some similar things happen on SD, but -very- rarely.
Being a criminal by using just the pickpocket or thievery skills doesn't pay.. you're absolutely right in that aspect. Being a criminal who uses their head and plans out a major heist or murder of somebody or group of people will pay off if they do it correctly.
By FireStorm at Mar 31, 2002, 4:33 PM
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BATA
210 posts
Weren't You the one bitching about the lack of crime? Make up your mind
and murphy FUCK YOU
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 6:52 PM
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BATA
282 posts
Quote: from Dominik on 9:52 pm on Mar. 31, 2002[br]and murphy FUCK YOU
Oh no, stop. You're hurting my feelings with your harsh language.
By Murphy at Mar 31, 2002, 7:29 PM
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LEGEND
951 posts
hehe Firestorm was bitching about the lack of crime. But i think more so he was bitchiing about the lack of intiative by anyone to build a criminal empire. He said there is money to be made in crime but its up to you to find it.
By allandra at Mar 31, 2002, 8:48 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
Well it pays if you kill luc…impossilbe, Maybe gerik...how many fat wallets are out there? There needs to be
-some- npc involvement, make it pay other than fuckin your friends or enemies over...
On our short list on hjow to make money as a criminal
Fixer, Fuck over friend or enemy
Nice we got two!
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 9:13 PM
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BATA
282 posts
It's up to you to find a way to make money as a criminal, figure something out, try it. If it doesn't work oh well you lose 5k for a clone and go back to a new better plan.
By allandra at Mar 31, 2002, 9:16 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
Don't forget the other 150-200k's worth of gear people tote around when they're commiting a crime.
By Lujan at Mar 31, 2002, 9:18 PM
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CHUMMER
168 posts
Exactly….why would I guess and check and lose a gun, armor, cash and clone...not to much invaluable UE, there -has- to be some sort of GM interaction crime that is worth shit....otherwise your left broke, no gear, and no friends...great RP!
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 9:20 PM
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BATA
282 posts
What would happen if you did this something like that in real life? You think just because its a game that crime should be easier to commit? People spend months casing banks and weeks trimming a mark, and your last comment….isn't this entire game soley for great RP?
By allandra at Mar 31, 2002, 9:26 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
*facepalms*
First off the Great RP comment was sarcastic
second I never said crime is too hard to commit, I'm sayin ones that make money need GM interraction
LISTEN(or read as the case may be)
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 9:27 PM
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BATA
282 posts
BULLSHIT!!!!
How many fucking times do I need to say it?!?!
No, they DO NOT NEED GM INTERACTION!!!!
GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD!
FUCK
By FireStorm at Mar 31, 2002, 9:29 PM
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BATA
210 posts
Alright you almost have a point there..but why GM interaction? I mean there's a few PC's that would be able to pull it off. Lucifer, Nic, and there's the already exsiting organizations. Let's get them working. Get with a group of friends and get the necessary people to pull off a job. A craker, a couple heavy hitters, break into someones house and murder them clean them out. Make the effort and im sure the admin will lend a hand. Just do something to earn it. Let them see it's a serious attempt and im sure youll get some support
By allandra at Mar 31, 2002, 9:34 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
You'd be surprised….*runs around on wild goose chases*
But what I'm saying is...lets say you wanna launder money, You'll need some GM interraction...you wanna *eyes* Loan you'll need GM interraction, I'm not saying mr admin shoudl come down port you inside a vault, hand you 5 billion chyen and port me out
By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 9:35 PM
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282 posts
Laundering, in the case of money, means:
"To disguise the source or nature of (illegal funds, for example) by channeling through an intermediate agent. "
It's things like taking a 50 dollar bill to a grocery store and buying an apple. The change will be the 'clean' money. Particularly after a bank job, where the bank keeps records of the bill series it had. Your grocery store or whatnot won't write down the serials. But in SD, the bills aren't marked, no one sees your bank transactions, so there's no need to launder the money.
And wasn't Nic blaring on about his loan service on the QTs and over SIC for a while?
By Murphy at Apr 1, 2002, 11:07 AM
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LEGEND
951 posts
Ok check these stories:
Found an unlocked credchip, managed to link the 900k out of it. turns out it was Devon's, he kidnapped Sath and threatened to kill her if no one fessed up. long shot but it worked…we weren't smart, we pulled it out all at once... POINT: Sometimes you just gotta see the opportunities when they arise.
Gally Killed Devon a ton of times because she was protecting the ones she cared about. Talk about gear! Luc, Gally, Gerik, we carry around gear. Why wouldn't we?! saving our gear for when we REALLY need it is like saying that I'll try not to die NEXT time. POINT: There are people who have gear, to get the gear, get the people.
How many charactesr started off goody goody and went bad because they needed to 'bide their time' before beign able to hold their own? how many of Luc's agents have become Judges, using TERRA as a stepping stone. POINT: be patient and bide your freakin' time.
And all those people who have bank accounts, spent hours upon hours running packages and slavin' away at SHI, you just don't start your shit until you got the chyen to live. You worry about your clone first, you worry about enough money for 2 clones first....THEN you do something. Be prepared.
The other day Gally sat out with 100k waiting for someone to get smart and gang up on her. yer all too honorable and friendly.
By BattleAngel at Apr 2, 2002, 7:00 PM
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NEWBIE
12 posts
I guess clones have gone up, end up of discussion, but isn't 5 times a bit excessive? i could under stand, 500 for an update and 3000 for a new one…but it seems thesee prices are just a bit overboard...besides what is teh reason for the hike?
By Dominik at Apr 4, 2002, 8:06 PM
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I am sick and tired of repeating myself… hell... I do this to NEWBIES.
Find Out ICly!
If no one tells you, fine. Do you need a reason for everything in life? In real life, are buisnesses required to tell you why they raise prices? There are any number of reasons, take a guess.
Dom, you need to stop thinking OOCly. You ask questions OOCly, you make remarks OOCly based on IC information without knowing there is more to something, and you always ask, OOCly, why things are.
Start thinking ICly... the Dome as a whole, in general, has a problem with OOC right now. I am not going to deny it. If your char doesn't know -why- something is happening... why does it matter if -you- know? If something happens ICly, and it doesn't seem to fit what you thought would happen, or (God forbid) if it doesn't fit what you wanted... question it ICly. NOT OOCly. The response has always been the same, and will continue to be so. If something happens admin-side, it happens for a reason, always.
This game is just that, a game. But it is more then that, it is a community. We should all, OOCly, be friendly towards each other... not angry or bitter. Why? We offer each other fun, escape, why be angry at them? Why shun someone or insult them OOCly because of something they did? Alot of the people on here would never act like their players do, they don't have that nerve... thats why they act like that here. Its an escape.
The game is built on mystery, information, suspense... if everyone knew everything... there would be no point. If people are going to question every RP that we attempt to run, it becomes worthless. Yes, I have gotten aggitated over it. I'm not going to speak for the other admin, but I, myself, am aggitated. There have been countless spams, countless RPs dying, countless bickerings... and it gets to you. Normally I write it off, but there are times when I can't.
Lets build the game back up... keep the mystery... cut down on the OOCness. I am by no means saying to stop talking to people OOC... just don't talk to them about IC happenings. Be friends... I know for a fact that when I was a PC, some of my best friends were mortal enemies in the game... and I loved it, I still do. I have made many friends here, and I know many others have... I'd hate to see someone be shunned and hurt because of a game. That is when it becomes wrong in my mind.
I -AM- Sindomian... are you?
By Wren at Apr 4, 2002, 8:28 PM
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Thanks for the lovely rant, an simple it's IC info would have been suffecient, and second you obviously didn't understand the reason for my questoin
back when the Mag levs were added we were told to treat them as if they had always been there, though that hadn't been the case….how am I supposed to tell if this raise is an IC business change, or an OOC 'always been that way we just decided to make it that way' change?
That was all I was asking
By Dominik at Apr 4, 2002, 8:32 PM
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BATA
282 posts
There is a notice at Sense Net. It has been there for at least half a month.
By Wren at Apr 4, 2002, 8:35 PM
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BATA
214 posts
One would think a 500% hike in clone prices with an IC justification would warrant more IC interest and publicity than a 'notice in Genetek'. The death penalty as been justified as a lower punishment than imprisonment because of the cheap and accepted norm of cloning, then the prices go through the roof?
That's inconsistent. You're ranting at the players to treat it ICly when the IC explanation being offered is feeble. Where's the news coverage? Where's the human rights groups? Where's the expose news reporters digging for the dirt and finding the true reason for the proposed hike in clone prices?
Look at the recent fluctuations in gas prices in the real world and all the news coverage and attention it generated. Changing the price of a common public service by such a large amount is not a 'sign at Genetek' situation. That change alone would and should have had huge impact on the Dome's economy. Life insurance? Big changes there. Cheap labor for dangerous jobs? All those guys are going to want big pay raises…
Feh.
Make it the OOC change it should have been or do it right.
By Rastus at Apr 5, 2002, 6:16 AM
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ACE KOOL
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By Johnny at Apr 5, 2002, 9:38 AM
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JUSTICE
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Apparently not enough if the player base didn't know about it.
By Rastus at Apr 5, 2002, 1:24 PM
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ACE KOOL
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Hey just a thought, The change in price is an IC thing. Ranting about it here isn't gonna change it. Take IC actions people, If its that big a deal to everyone stage a protest get a group of people and picket, keep people from entering the place. Bitch and rant about it on the SIC. Jesus there's enough people who don't like it. Make your colletive voices known -IC'LY-.
By allandra at Apr 5, 2002, 9:50 PM
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CHUMMER
152 posts
Edit: I had a long post, but the more I read it, the less sense it made. OOCly, I have no problem with it, it'll weed out the people that come on to just mess stuff up.
(Edited by Shadow at 12:50 pm on April 6, 2002)
(Edited by Shadow at 12:52 pm on April 6, 2002)
By Shadow at Apr 6, 2002, 12:28 PM
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SPLATJOB
63 posts
First off Alla I didn't rant about it OOC, I was asking if it was an OOC or IC change, and ras is right I'm on quite a bit and I didn't hear anything of it, you would think it would the talk of the town….when gas went up buy like 25% Comediens, Journalists, Joe Smoe all talked about....this was one freaking notice, how many people read -ever- @detail t hey come across....hell it's gotten tot he point where I don't read the descrip everytime Just when it pertains to RP
By Dominik at Apr 7, 2002, 6:17 PM
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BATA
282 posts
Its gotten to the point where you take things for granted. Stop doing so.
There were 3 seperate ways you'd of heard about this. I can't list them here, but, I will tell you that this was an OOC change explained ICly, which means it happened ICly and you should react as such.
OOCly, we wanted to make death worth more. I personally perfer to see a battle end without one person dying all the damn time.
By Johnny at Apr 7, 2002, 6:38 PM
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JUSTICE
3,038 posts
I'm gonna agree with that…
But I just read the book Ender's Game again. And mercy isn't always the best policy
Lets say though that you come acrose a somewhere-inbetweenbie and you fight...that wouldn't be a bad time for mercy
But if Burn-X is pickin on you, why just win the battle when you can win the war? Kick em where it hurts, even if he is down
By Dominik at Apr 7, 2002, 6:44 PM
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BATA
282 posts
Another long one. Gods.
My two cents: Some of you may remember way back in the days before permadeath was on, when clones were free, and talk was that they would cost:
10,000 chyen for a new clone
2,000 chyen for an update.
Count yourselves lucky punks! And always remember, 20 chyen equals ONE US dollar. Take the prices you pay and divide them by 20, then compair to the price of stuff around you, and you should be -damned- happy.
By Nicadeamus at Apr 20, 2002, 2:10 PM
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STREET SAM
411 posts
