How to be a better dip?
how to provide better roleplay via theft/stealth.

But no one seems to ask the one question, I've somewhat been afraid to ask. How do I provide roleplay as a dip that doesn't immediately out me as a dip?

I've seen a lot of people try and suggest using poses to bump into people or do things elaborately. In my experience with doing that though, people immediately out you as a dip even if you passed all the checks. It feel like doing any sort of pose that could potentially give the victim a lead, just ends up with the thief giving themselves away for no real benefit. As the rp that follows just becomes a frustration for the would be thief who is now outed and harassed on sight for awhile.

One suggestion I've seen is planting things on players, like bombs, and incriminating evidence. That's actually a solid idea, but again. If I do this via a pose, everyone knows it was me. Or at least it feels that way in practice.

Theft isn't always random either. Sometimes thieves are given items to find by fences. And tracking down a fence as a thief is a common role play for people in this archetype. Yet it seems people only focus on the theft part, and pay little attention to build up that there might have been.

What are some ways that you would like to see thieves roleplay their archetype without making themselves always be on the losing end?

You're not always going to see the roleplay that leads up to either of these things happening to your character but most of the time it does exist. Very rarely does someone walk up to you on the street and commit acts of harm without some prior thought having been put into it by someone.

Though I would also say that even a dip hiding on a busy street corner waiting for potential targets to pass by is them putting themselves at risk so they can make some chy in the, at times, unseen action. It's not really much different than a mugger hiding on a street corner waiting for someone to walk by with the one factor I'd highlight being that there are different tools to defend against both these events that a lot of players never really learn how to utilize.

In the case of it being a mugger there's also no limit on what they can take, so you might actually be getting lucky when the dip gets you for something you then later realize is missing.

While I understand it can be frustrating to silently lose something anyway I have at times seen players wish that more violent types would emote with them before actually typing the attack command. The problem is that it would never work out because Sindome is a game which does rely heavily on mechanics when the action starts. It has the RP standard of a MUSH while also not being a MUSH, all rolls are automatic.

If I were to emote aiming at you instead of aiming at you via the command, nine times out of ten you are going to immediately run away and I'm sure it'd turn out similarly or worse for anyone playing a dip. There are very valid reasons why players who are capable of writing multi paragraph emotes might choose to use shorter emotes in certain circumstances, the nature of the game requires that you be more attentive especially when in public.

The other part of this is that combat characters can join up with factions that support them in their violent endeavors, which enables them to do more than just type attack or kill and flee. Gangs are a big one here. Maybe if a dip went ganger they could do something similar but then why not just be a mugger? I think dips are mostly fine as they are being the entire archetype is based around stealthy actions, with some flair mixed in when possible.

1. I would give them a funny name. Probably 'Chance', which is a homage to a characer in a book in Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

2. I wouldn't emote brushing up against people or doing anything obvious before doing it just to add flavor. That said, I might. …but it would be something they did all the time. A natural part of their personality. Nobody would bat an eyelash at Chance getting real cozy with them. They're just friendly like that.

3. I would set up something beforehand if I knew I was going after a particular target. Probably create a trail of clues that led back to someone else entirely. Maybe track other people's suspicious behavior, or leverage strained relationships.

4. I would leave a calling card to taunt the victim.

Stop viewing it as a way to earn chyen and start viewing it as a way to do cool stuff.

Using the skill in outside of the box ways is definitely an approach I want to try more. One way I've thought about is using it to disarm a person before a fight, but the average player uses some form of holster.

Another idea I've considered is using it to spread propaganda pieces and other data you might want spread about anonymously.

But when it does come to stealing things to keep my own plots/character sustained, searching for the bigger heist definitely has the potential to be more "fun." Usually a player with that much to lose with have the means or know how to react, even if it's asking various fixers who hawked their goods. Much like how combat characters will ignore people much weaker than them, I can see how a thief might consider themselves above the easy steals and wanting more of a challenge.

Steal your opponent's weapon before combat. Or stalking them and then stealing it from them after combat.

Partner up with people to steal other people’s gear on their way to / from a deal or a dead drop.

Sell someone something very expensive then steal it off them on their way home.

Steal your opponents Progia or E-note and skim information.

Plant ominous letters in people’s pockets.

Steal macguffins! Though maybe not anymore.

If you just spam pick over and over it won’t be as satisfying.

My take:

Remember that RP in sindome isn't just poses. It's DOING things. This includes the things that are commands with rolls. Taking item X from player Y with player Y never knowing exactly what happened is RP in sindome. You made things happen. You contributed to story.

I feel that it's easy for all of us to confuse 'no RP' with 'that RP didn't go how I wanted it to or would have liked'. I for sure don't want to intentionally make another player hate their experience playing sindome but it's not all on me, or you, or them. I get the frustration to some degree but if it's within the rules, it's fair game in my book.

Withthat in mind…

Consider not being a complete klepto who goes after every possible target every possible moment. You can play this way but it was never very satisfying for me and usually resulted in short lived characters or characters with enemies everywhere.

Consider ways to involve other players in your RP. This can be done in a variety of ways and frequently doesn't involve your victim. It doesn't have to. You can generate RP and story without posing at or talking to your victim.

Your character should consider ways they can survive the near inevitable outing of their hobby. Both in terms of mechanics and in terms of RP. A dip that can survive or even thrive despite being known is a dip that will be willing and able to engage more with others. One thing to frequently consider is how your PC can be useful/likeable to others and this kind of ties in with involving others.

Look at the long game. Maybe the your dipping provided the victim with little direct RP with your character then but maybe you can use it to bring RP to them in six months. I don't think every exchange needs to have X poses and Y pleased level from all present. Sometimes the best story is when things get revealed, intentionally or not, down the road.

Regarding some other comments...

the overall sentiment that people don't get much role play from some stealthed up player who types steal/pickpocket

I don't buy into this premise. Yes, some complain about this but others, including myself, do not. I don't believe that there is a general opinion held by most or all players on this topic.

a lot of people try and suggest using poses to bump into people or do things elaborately

As others have said, sure. If you can do so without ruining play for your character. I've done this before but it's either something I've made a character ALWAYS do with theft only occurring a faction of the time or with PCs that have, in my opinion, a good RP track record or when I feel there's a reasonable chance of it not hamstringing my PC.

As usual with these topics I feel people look too hard on one side. You will never see 'more posing I like' in relation to combat or theft and losing unless effort is made on BOTH sides to deliver a result that both sides can deal with. It's not all on one player and if it's always used against players in ways that they can deal with, you won't see more of it.

People do not enjoy players/characters who lean too heavily on mechanics

In my opinion, those players should seriously consider the game they are playing. Sindome is all about the mix of mechanics and RP and intentionally relies heavily on mechanics. I'm not going to avoid using the mechanics available to my character just because another player wants to play more MUSH style. I think it's alright if we all play the game we have. Actions that include rolls are still RP. It's not just poses here.

I would set up something beforehand if I knew I was going after a particular target. Probably create a trail of clues that led back to someone else entirely.

This is awesome and I've done similar given the right circumstances. At the same time, I don't play Sindome 24/7 so it would have to be a big or special theft for me to put this much work into it. If I tried to do this every time I would burn out quickly. It's not worth hours of play and thousands of chyen to do all this for every sandwich or progia or fistful of chyen in my opinion. But when you can do it, awesome!

I would leave a calling card to taunt the victim.

I do love communicating with victims. Not every time and not in a way that necessarily outs any DIP PC I was playing at the time. However, even if you aren't blatantly leaking your identity it can be very satisfying for the other player to at least get some words they can bitch about later. Also, as mentioned by another, leaving a literal calling card can be a pain given how limited stealth/thievery is in Sindome. It's still fun to do though.

Stop viewing it as a way to earn chyen and start viewing it as a way to do cool stuff.

I 98% agree with this. But it is also a way to make chyen. I don't think anyone has an obligation to avoid this aspect. I do agree you can do more.

Sadly, however, the mechanics severely limit what one can do with stealth/thievery so it's not always possible to do the cool thing in any kind of practical way. If the mechanics shoehorn you into specific limited actions, don't be surprised if those are used very frequently.

That being said, there are tons of great examples here on how to do the 3.5 things such a build allows in ways that I think are more creative and meaningful!

Making money as a thief isn't the problem. It's doing it in a way that makes it fun for those involved.

I am wary of this one. Yes. I do try and spread story but I know for certain that I can't make other players have fun. Not if my character is trying to come out ahead or at least not always crash horribly. Players tend to have very different ideas of what is fun for them and 'losing' usually puts a damper on their fun. I always try and throw in some RP in muggings, dippings, whatever. But I don't feel it's all on me to make sure everyone leaves feeling they had fun. I just try to not be a complete ass.

I read on these forums when I first started playing here that the best ways to learn about something was to get out there and do it in the game. That is true here. I find myself not enjoying how these posts, while with the best intent, turn into an open diary for everyone to read on how to spot and stop a thief from playing because they know all of the tells that were suggested.

I've seen it on several occasions throughout the years, too.

If you are being targeted by random people who you've never victimized just for being a pickpocket, that is a real problem and you should absolutely complain about that, similar activity has constituted bans for community harm before.

If you got in over your head by putting your fingers in the wrong pocket, that's just Withmore. It's important to differentiate these two things when speaking on the forum, because people will start believing (and have, before) that there's an anti-pickpocket cabal that will perm you for having the skill on your sheet, when that is simply not true.

The problem is not that the Thievery skill is OP or that players of thieves need to "do better", I think it's largely more a cultural issue as well as limitations of the skill itself which, hot take, could probably use some work to make it more versatile.

"If you are being targeted by random people who you've never victimized just for being a pickpocket, that is a real problem and you should absolutely complain about that, similar activity has constituted bans for community harm before. "

Yeah, so if you pickpocket someone and get caught chances are you'll be hunted by A) victim's friends or B) people tied to the location you pickpocketed in all of which is a heavy handed response to a pretty minor crime. It's seemingly never as simple as the victim getting revenge on the thief 1v1.

I also agree that if a dip gets caught victimizing someone that they need to be ready to face consequences. That's fair in my eyes. I do, however, think that there has been a culture that, in my personal opinion, over reacts to the theft of even minor items when compared to much greater pain and loss that might come from a mugging for example.

I think this shows by how many characters try and weaponize the label 'dip'. While I think the culture has changed a bit here I think that the fact that characters like to throw out 'they're a dip' like they do is because they expect the outraged hunt because it's something they've seen in the past. I'm not sure people would try this tactic if there wasn't some success with it witnessed in the past.

Compare that to someone accusing someone of being a mugger on SIC. They don't get a free pass but, in my opinion, the response is more mixed. Heck, sometimes this just encourages other combat types to take them in as a protege. I'm not saying that muggers suffer no ill will but, in my experience, the reactions are noticeably different.

Of course, all the above is just my opinion and I think that it's not dip specific. I've seen muggers hounded by large numbers if they go too far. Same with data brokers and SIC warriors and many other roles. I do feel, however, that few labels can be as potentially damaging. There are some, like cannibal, but not many.

Regardless, I do think there has been a shift here. I see more PCs trying to establish ties and USE dips than ever before. I think the cultural shift has been pretty impressive really. :)

I agree with this with some exceptions. One example is that if you piss off or pick a fight with a dip you are not equipped to handle, I won't feel bad for you if you are being targeted every moment the dip is allowed to you. Fighters can crush but a thief frequently has to bleed enemies slowly.

Of course it does, of course it does. Even separately from discussions about roleplay theft is an important check and fuel for whole sections of the game, they may not be ones that everyone is engaged with but they are there and just as important, if not more important, than other types of casual roleplay.

Being stolen from is itself a roleplay hook, whether a player decides to engage with it is up to them. Moreover though whether the victim felt they were involved in the roleplay or not, does not mean roleplay does not result – it's just other players who are engaged in it. This mentality that players have that everything must involve them and engage them and centre on them is not big picture, they are part of a larger storytelling ecosystem whether they feel like they're being catered to or not.

The point being, any one-sided, repeated, and non-interactive conflict tends to end up causing bleed or otherwise being toxic.