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Now, I am probably the biggest fan of getting out there and starting rp, and making your own money. I don't think anyone can deny that I am not all over the idea of hussling.
That being said, it seems like suddenly the ways of gaining income suddenly pay less. Noodle shop is paying half of what it does, and suddenly my tips from crates suck badly.
Why the sudden change? Was this coded for a reason, or have I just been very very lucky before the other day?
By Mann at Sep 7, 2014 8:03 PM
I can't speak for staff or any possible changes, but methods of income like those are supposed to suck pretty badly. If you have a steady job, which is available on all sectors for most people, then you do not get affected by changes to the backup/starter income sources.
By Xenode at Sep 7, 2014 9:44 PM
Nothing has been changed in regards to these things.
By Cinnamon at Sep 7, 2014 9:46 PM
I know steady IC jobs that suck even worse income wise than just running RED sector packages. I don't really care about the noodle shop but the courier jobs should always pay at least a decent amount, it would benefit the game to have full-time PC couriers running packages all the time to keep stores stocked, and if the payoffs start trending downwards people are going to run packages less and find those steady salary jobs as fast as possible.
By stryder at Sep 7, 2014 9:47 PM
I know they are supposed to suck. And they do, really, which was the question.
People were noting that things that paid 250 chyen, were paying 120 or 130. So i wanted to ask.
Guess I was just getting really lucky for a while. Good to know!
By Mann at Sep 7, 2014 9:49 PM
If people were noting it ICly, then react to it ICly. That's what people did when the weekly cap was put into place and payouts reduced a lot.
If they were noting it OOCly, report it.
By Xenode at Sep 7, 2014 9:50 PM
There are reasons for payouts changing for a given PC from one day to another. They may have to do with the income cap, approaching or past. They may have to do with the character's IC status or condition. Maybe others. At any rate, it doesn't sound like there have been changes to the MOO. Frequently when there are, they're announced.
By bean_dip at Sep 7, 2014 9:53 PM
It was noted oocly with a guided group. Can't go into much anything else. It could simply be like bean said, and there was some mitigating factor we didn't notice.
By Mann at Sep 7, 2014 9:55 PM
This sounds like an IC issue resulting from IC circumstance as was mentioned before. There are various factors that go into how much you're paid out. One new help file 'help factions' is a good place to start. But there are other factors as well including your char's condition.
By Slither at Sep 9, 2014 3:21 PM
'I don't really care about the noodle shop...'
Speak for yourself. The noodle shop has a butterfly effect on more things than you might realize.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 4:18 PM
Ohhh faction! This is an awesome idea, and if that's it, it makes perfect sense, and that's 100% awesome :)
By Mann at Sep 10, 2014 4:20 PM
This really effects the Noodle Shop and player run / made jobs very roughly. It sets off this strange chain reaction that hurts everyone for little gain.
By Esther at Sep 10, 2014 4:48 PM
What affects it? Nothing has been changed as staff said. The faction system has been in place for a while now.
By Xenode at Sep 10, 2014 4:49 PM
'What affects it? Nothing has been changed as staff said. The faction system has been in place for a while now.'
A lot of people in this thread are assuming that the faction system is being discussed, or attribute affects, or etc.
Either way it's something that I'm tentative towards discussing since it's bordering on IC. So what I say to Mann and the above is if your income has been affected this way; investigate the matter IC.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 4:51 PM
Rather what I should say is that there is a lot more than stat/condition effects and the faction system that are in play at the moment. If your income has been affected recently, it isn't necessarily because of either of these things.
It still holds that the best answer is to look into it ICly.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 4:57 PM
Another thing for people to consider, is the overall IC implications of things they do for coded jobs. If you treat them solely as an income source or as 'quests' and don't take any consideration into the IC actions you're actually doing, you're potentially going to have a bad time.
By Xenode at Sep 10, 2014 4:59 PM
In regards to the dogs, it isn't the result of the faction system nor was Cinnamon entirely correct in her response. The maximum payout on this particular feature was halved. Crates on the other hand, I am not aware of any changes.
By Cerberus at Sep 10, 2014 5:00 PM
'In regards to the dogs, it isn't the result of the faction system nor was Cinnamon entirely correct in her response. The maximum payout on this particular feature was halved. Crates on the other hand, I am not aware of any changes.'
Not entirely accurate either.
Both brackets of payout have been halved.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:04 PM
Fixed for clarity; I'm talking about the upper and lower limits of dogs, not that crates were also affected.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:06 PM
I personally think that's probably a good idea. Maybe you make less money at the time but it allows you to stretch out that automated pay over more days.
By stryder at Sep 10, 2014 5:07 PM
Both have definately been halved.
Now, I am aware that a certain stat WILL effect your tips on crates., the tips are really, really small at Acme now. sometimes, less then 100 I think.
By Mann at Sep 10, 2014 5:07 PM
I think it's possible for a single crate run to make more money than a single dog. One of which requires a skill, more effort, and a much higher risk to the games environment. Assuming crates are entirely untouched.
In response to Stryder, you would never, ever reach your weekly cap doing just the Noodle Shop. Even before the change, and certainly not now.
By Esther at Sep 10, 2014 5:10 PM
'I personally think that's probably a good idea. Maybe you make less money at the time but it allows you to stretch out that automated pay over more days.'
That's a very narrow minded take on it and isn't entirely true either.
I, for one, have plenty of concerns about the changes besides my PC's own personal gain. As I mentioned above, there's a butterfly effect. There's more to it than people simply making less NPC income.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:10 PM
Just because I make a comment doesn't mean that is my total view on the subject. So please don't call me narrow minded ;)
By stryder at Sep 10, 2014 5:12 PM
I didn't call you narrow minded.
I said that's a very narrow view, which I feel it is. There's a much bigger picture going on than 'Well,now you can stretch that income over longer'. Which is also not true to begin with in many cases.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:14 PM
As euclid said.
This money helps new people get the clothes and gear they need.
The dogs used to be a way for semi-new people to make extra cash, guiding new immies, killing dogs for them to sell, and taking a cut. Expanding rp, and making buisness.
Now, to be honest, that's dying out fast, because the guides don't think a percentage of 4-5 hundred chy is worth the risk to there life. And they are right.
Now there's less money trading hands. PC tailors get less work, pc drug makers get less orders, pc whores get less clients, people can't afford to update there clones, or even GET a clone anymore (it used to be hard to save 5 grand for the first clone, now it's really hard, and I suspect, many people will die before they can)
Which will effect how many new players stick around and become old players
By Mann at Sep 10, 2014 5:15 PM
Similar things have been said when much more drastic reductions in coded sources of income have happened in the past, yet the player numbers have grown massively.
By Xenode at Sep 10, 2014 5:18 PM
I don't dissagree Xenode, entirely.
What I disagree with, is adding more struggle, where more struggle isn't needed. New players don't need more struggle. They already get pickpocketed and robbed, and burgled, and mugged on a (if not almost daily basis) weekly basis.
They already look at things that cost 1k and say "damn, that's really ducking expensive"
So why make it harder? Where it needs to be harder is on the oldbies. not the noobies.
By Mann at Sep 10, 2014 5:21 PM
"The dogs used to be a way for semi-new people to make extra cash, guiding new immies, killing dogs for them to sell, and taking a cut. Expanding rp, and making buisness."
Yeah, thats actually oocly fucking over new players by reducing how much money they'll get without you and you're doing it precisely to get around the weekly cap. Now its not nearly as valuable to twinks doing this. It's not strictly against the rules and yes you can ICly justify it, but you're being a DICK oocly to new players by doing it.
By Johnny at Sep 10, 2014 5:22 PM
There's no difference between newbies and oldies really in that regard, Mann. There's oldbies that end up flat broke after years of success, and newbies who have pools of chyen in their first few weeks. So I don't really see that being very relevant.
By Xenode at Sep 10, 2014 5:23 PM
I don't agree with that at all Johnny, what if said new player couldn't kill a dog anyways? Then they're making 0 money from it and potentially not getting killed for trying.
By stryder at Sep 10, 2014 5:24 PM
I disagree Johnny. Since most new players get murdered by dogs. And it's very IC to 'get a guide' And once they get good enough to actually be able to brave the park alone, they go without the guides. it helps new players more then anything (as I have seen many, many new players thanking guides, and even giving them larger cuts for the trouble)
But I've said my piece. And I will rest my arguement.
By Mann at Sep 10, 2014 5:25 PM
We put warnings on the park for a reason. The park, from a game standpoint, is where newbies can learn combat. Income is not its primary purpose and the payout was found out of balance compared to the reality of things. There are plenty of income sources for those who get out there and try. The weekly cap is easy to reach in short time.
Feel the fucking struggle please.
By Johnny at Sep 10, 2014 5:27 PM
Mann gets it. I didn't want to go into specifics, but there it is.
Park tour guides was an iffy job to begin with - but it was an emergent job that arose from the system for players to connect with players, which is glorious. The take before was pretty low. Now it's less.
There's even more connections going on than Mann mentioned. Less people going to the park affects a lot of businesses (including other 'indie' jobs like fixers). Actually on the whole 'indies' got the worst deal out of the changes.
More obviously, less incentive to visit the park means less RP in the park. An area that already has a large risk attached to it.
'Similar things have been said when much more drastic reductions in coded sources of income have happened in the past, yet the player numbers have grown massively.'
That isn't a good metric for deeming any one change succesful after a litany of changes over the years and is a very simplistic counterpoint to raise.
'Yeah, thats actually oocly fucking over new players by reducing how much money they'll get without you and you're doing it precisely to get around the weekly cap. Now its not nearly as valuable to twinks doing this. It's not strictly against the rules and yes you can ICly justify it, but you're being a DICK oocly to new players by doing it.'
I feel like this is categorizing people who want to do this poorly. I'm sure that many players who are touring don't meet the cap, let alone do it soley to get around it. It's not twinkish behavior to seek PC-to-PC income and it's certainly not as big of an issue as the amounts of money that can be made through scavenger code with NPC-to-PC-to-PC income which seems abusive and *guts* the amount of money the newbie can make.
But in most cases it's there to make new players money that they wouldn't make on their own and to plunge them headfirst into the game, give them some chyen in their pocket, give them some RP and in the cases I'm aware of is done in tandem with teaching them the syntax and the ropes. Something we're encouraged to do often. To create an experience for new players. They're also told of the dangers of the park. They're not baited and set up to die or what-have-you. Immies wander into the park and die with or without the existence of the guides or the warnings.
'We put warnings on the park for a reason. The park, from a game standpoint, is where newbies can learn combat. Income is not its primary purpose and the payout was found out of balance compared to the reality of things. There are plenty of income sources for those who get out there and try. The weekly cap is easy to reach in short time.
Feel the fucking struggle please.'
And many of the points in the thread were not that 'You've gutted my income'. Nobody is complaining that they can't cap anymore. But it does affect a lot of RP, including the new player experience some of those who use the park have been trying to create.
You're right. It's primary purpose shouldn't be income and it was overtuned. I don't blame anybody for knocking it down at all.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:36 PM
I definitely don't agree with guides being 'malicious' or 'dicks' when it's done to give immigrants an injection of cash they wouldn't have had otherwise whilst showing them the game, so I have to strongly resist that. Especially when there are -actually- malicious means of circumventing the cap in the game which are done in entirety to one's own benefit.
I can't stress enough that I disagree with that.
But then again, the devil is on the detail. There's certainly potential for people to abuse the dogs and the 'tour' role and use it primarily as a means to facilitate oneself first and with no regard to the experience they're creating. But that's a problem on an individual basis and I certainly wouldn't want to be labelled a twink who is dicking over new players if I were offering this service for payment if I have only good intentions.
By Euclid at Sep 10, 2014 5:46 PM
As a relatively new player, myself, I'd like to weigh in.
I don't think the change is as harmful as you believe. New players who are not combat oriented (or properly equipped for the combat they specialize in) will want to check out the park regardless, precisely because they're warned to stay out while also hearing about various interesting elements that can be found there. Now... they may not be as interested in going on a weekly basis, but should they really want to? I did think my own experience in regard to getting a guide was pretty awesome, but I don't doubt that there are also players who can and have made it a pretty bland experience precisely because they're more interested in the income than the interaction. I'm not making accusations here, but a supposition.
As for general income of new players... well... I'm going to agree with Johnny that it's pretty absurdly easy to reach the cap (if you have the time). It can then get more difficult to earn money from the system afterward, depending on where you end up.
And finally, to address getting robbed... well... that's something they need to learn how to counter eventually. I caught on pretty early myself, so I didn't suffer nearly as much as some seem to have, but there are also some that apparently want to just bull-headedly ignore the options available to them for securing their possessions for whatever reason.
In summary, I'm personally comfortable with the difficulty in making money from the automated systems. It does exactly what it's supposed to in driving you toward seeking other means of income outside of these systems. I also find difficulty to make games far more entertaining. Games that just hand you everything are incredibly boring. If there is an issue with a particular 'job's usefulness or necessity within the game world that is driving people to using the automated systems as a *primary* source of income, I think that's something that can be addressed on an individual basis.
By etc at Sep 10, 2014 6:32 PM
I have two things to offer.
First, a disagreement:
"most new players get murdered by dogs"
Most new players -would- be killed by dogs -if- they tried to take one (or more) of them on their own. I don't believe that "most new players" were trying to do that and dying for it. Why not? Because the
Second, thoughts on the entire guide "role".
Sharing carcass money between the guide and the immy is an uncreative way for the guide to try to make money from the "guide gig". It's going after chyen without roleplaying the struggle.
I know what the -advertised- purpose of the guide service is, and someone other than the dogs should be paying for the benefit the guides provide. Thoughtful roleplaying can turn the strategy from one of "farming mobs" to one of developing actual relationships and agreements with people who would pay because it makes sense. And, no, I'm not talking about the penniless immies. I'm thinking about two or three or four -other- types of characters, who do have resources.
By bean_dip at Sep 10, 2014 6:43 PM
Just my 2 cent worth.. but ive always hated this aspect of being able to use OOCLy knowledge about a oocly imposed game limit (ie the 9k limit) to in effect con the the new player (not character but player) into giving up some of their 9k limit to get around another characters 9k limit..
now dont get me wrong, conning and swindling and fuck each over is part and parcel of this wonderful game and is great.. but like meta abuse isnt tolerated, neither should this occly knowledge abuse be tolerated . Now again im not saying its wrong for a player that has been playing for ages is going to use knowledge of the game to get ahead and that all square.. but since the 9k limit is an artificial construct icly in the game then abusing this because of oocly knowledge in my eyes is cheating...
now if the "guide" was upfront and explained it oocly or even checked that a player was aware of the 9k limit and its consequences and the RP'ed it out then its totally fair play, otherwise its just abusing new players and their lack of knowledge...
You could argue the point in the grander scheme of things its all learning and its not a massive drop in the new players income either that week or overall.. but actually any flash is important to a new player as everything is soo expensive.. and anything that needlessly frustrates new players and smacks of griefing is just bang out of order.
anyway just my two cents and im certainly not targeting all "guides" or any player in particular , just sharing my frustration with this behavior in my eyes.
By wintermute at Sep 11, 2014 5:16 AM
Hi, Quatermaster Jinx here.
I halved the payment the dogs for a reason. It is to better move the game's economy.
I say this because the economy moves in mysterious ways. And while the dogs create RP, they yielded too much money and unbalanced other economy systems. Systems that move the economy more than dogs in the park.
I will continue to balance things as I see fit in order to stabilize the economy subsystems.
By Jinx at Sep 11, 2014 3:40 PM
I always roleplayed the danger of the park, especially to new players and warned them about the possible consequences of entering the park on their own / even more so at night. I don't even think I've charged anyone their flash but instead offered them advice on what to do with it. (That 1300~ is a good portion for your first clone.)
By Esther at Sep 11, 2014 3:42 PM
Just a quick opinion.
The whole debate about being an ooc dick to new players by working around the cap, yes that's what it is. If you trully want to offer the RP to that newbie and don't want to be a dick about it, don't charge them for the escort, instead make them owe you a favor to be redeemed at a later point in time. This effectively does two things: 1.) You don't cut into the newbies capped off money, and 2.) promises a future of RP with your character if you see fit.
Be a dick and manipulative ICly for the greater good OOCly, not the other way around.
By Swashbuckler at Sep 11, 2014 10:40 PM
Those that do guides for the park to collect dog money are no more dicks OOCly that pick pockets that fish crate runners.
At least the guides provide more RP.
By stryder at Sep 12, 2014 12:45 AM
By stryder at Sep 12, 2014 12:46 AM
No PC needs to be present for you to get pickpocketed, just FYI.
By Xenode at Sep 12, 2014 1:08 AM
"No PC needs to be present for you to get pickpocketed, just FYI."
I can confirm this.
By Jinx at Sep 12, 2014 8:09 AM