Legacy Cam Systems need to go

Another point I would add would be "Getting away with something." We already suffer from widespread Small world accusations. "Oh, that shroud had a pickaxe, SMG, Stiletto, it must have been xxx" is such a garbage way to play and it only compounds when there are rooms with ten legacy camera networks that can't be broken down. The argument could be made even more so when they are in crowded rooms.

The thing I really am curious about is how cameras tie in with rarity. If these people with their super networks possess all of them then me, trying to get a camera to watch my front door or something, will never be able to get one.

I've tried. Literally had THE BEST techie pc try. could not remove a part of the system.

This was in my original statement.

There are also cameras that are not intended to be uninstalled without major GM oversight because they're part of faction installations or bases or systems.

Subjectively it seemed to me there was ~20 cameras kicking around usually in weak networks or in stockpiles or for sale but that could have changed lately and if there is a rarity factor impacting players it would probably be a good time to address that.

While I agree, I think most people will small world events and simply not care if someone mocks them for doing so. The repercussions for saying "The poncho used xxx weapon? It can only be…." is FAR less damaging than people now using that information to justify reprisal.

Not to divert the topic though, I believe saying that any camera a player has put up can also be taken down is a little bit of carrot and stick reasoning. While yes, it is POSSIBLE, it is unlikely to happen. That also seems to be a sindome culture thing, because I've read things such as "Any NPC can be killed" while the NPC is locked behind an impenetrable door that won't be opened anytime soon, or "Any vehicle can be stolen" if you can somehow track down the proper item for the proper vehicle and afford it (Though with rarity and price checks going on this may not be a problem in the near future).

There's special equipment for decking that negates skill advantage in some instances as a non combat example. There's also stealth that has multiple ways it can be thwarted if your skill is lower than the super ninja hiding in your closet.

For most other skills there's not really a direct skill vs skill contest, and as far as I know the only two skills where you can basically be dice roll king at a high enough level have to do with installing furniture or tech.

I'm not sure "legacy cam systems" have to go but as it stands the only I'd see it being possible to remove certain cameras would be for me to reroll and invest two years into becoming the best tech the game has ever seen. (After the guy who superglued the things in place, of course.)

I make do with the methods we have available to temporarily make cameras unusable but I see where SmokePotion is coming from on this topic. It might help if there were even a one use item a tech could use to get a camera down.

That's not a bug to the system. It's a feature.

I think it's awesome that a player can dedicate themselves to developing a character's skills to the point where they can leave a "seemingly" permanent impression on the game world.

IMO, one of the largest allures to playing on Sindome is the ability to leave a lasting impression. Whether that is creating a street gang. Or having exploits so epic that they are talked about decades later. Or, leaving behind digital eavesdropping devices that "nobody" can remove.

As others have said, there are plenty of ways to deal with cameras other than uninstalling them.

Also, a shortage of cameras has always been an issue. I believe it is a game balance issue. There are IC ways to deal with it. And IC avenues for characters to explore if they want access to a supply of cameras.

One of the best things about this game is that EVERYTHING is available. If your character seems something in the game, they can have it. In theory. The fun comes from figuring out how to get it.

By Necronex666

It being possible to rule camera installs if your skill is high enough is a strange if you compare it to the other systems in the game. The odds in combat can be evened through numbers or a well planned ambush, or several other things, so even if you're the best fighter on the game you can still be killed.

Obligatory reminder that PCs aren't the only skilled characters in the game. While you may be encouraged to seek PCs out first, you can certainly attempt to inquire elsewhere if that presents a block.

The first was that, under some specific circumstances, active networks that got migrated to the new system a few years ago could (if dismantled in a specific way) leave behind a phantom feed on a screen as long as you never touched the thing ever again. However as far as I know Slither ran something to prune these when I reported them, and I dismantled the network that I saw was causing them.

The other is that the network scanner has a bug in it that is causing part of the display to be missing. This is @vb 304 which is a known issue. This doesn't technically effect any part of building, attacking, or monitoring networks but it does mean there is an extra step that may not be completely obvious to players learning for the first time.

Other than those things the system players have now is much easier to understand and to attack, compared to how they used to be which required a ton of note taking and doodling the network connections the game wouldn't describe to you. Players now have it easier by far, the networks are just worse than they were so fewer people are interested in them but that effected everyone equally.

I never claimed that there is a shadowy cabal of cam people trading cams or whatever.

I said Cam networks are being passed around this comes in 2 flavors.

1: Knowingly : "Hey, I'm leaving the dome, here's my apartment"

2: Unknowingly: "Oh shit, I just apartment lottoed sinn street cams!"

Both of these are bad for the game, imho.

Yes, there are networks out there that have been around for Literal freaking years, passed down from one person to the next to the next. Tell me this is wrong, and I'll tell you you are 100% lying.

Okay but you're also conflating two things with scary-sounding language, saying things like 40 camera networks and talking about widespread collusion and legacy networks, trying to create an impression that there is something happening that isn't. Everyone and their ace kool having the same tap on the same small network since the stone age and widespread collusion and use of massive networks are two different things and one of them is happening and the other, in my opinion, is not. No one is watching forty camera networks because you physically cannot anymore.

The idea of network degradation but I feel personally more or less how Mirage felt about it at the time:

A common point of conflict about Sindome is that jobs feel like real jobs, requiring many hours of play to do what amounts to busywork.

As a game designer, or as someone proposing designs for the game, I think we all need to be cogent that engagement is not the same as activity, and both of these are also different from fun.

Engagement can be something that requires a lot of active, conscious thought. Not all things that are fun are engaging, and not all engaging things are fun.

To this specific feature request I see a few outcomes:

1. This will benefit every thief, criminal, opposition in the game destabilize the camera and security networks that exist by targeting sensors.

2. Players with security networks will have to spend more time doing busywork.

The net result will probably be:

1. People will go outside more to do their rounds.

2. More time will be taken away from casual roleplay in order to do what is effectively crate running without profit.

2.a. It won't be possible to delegate this work because it will still be valuable to send the highest skill person possible to do it.

3. Cameras, monitors, and other sensors may see a marginal increase in trading hands, but I suspect most devices you're talking about being "unremovable" are actually staff devices that are permanent.

This seems like a nerf to everyone with a security network, and given I plan for every security network to be hackable on the grid, and to have a grid presence, I'm not terribly confident in the grand scheme of things if this actually increases fun of the game.

It is also hard to separate if this is a suggestion that is instead born from a frustration of being unable to get security devices, which I would prefer to fix instead.

I think it's perfectly easy to imagine a paradigm where installations become weaker over time, but I also think making that choice brings with it a precedent that extends to a lot more than cameras. Because if you're requiring active upkeep in one area, it raises the question why it wouldn't be correct to have it in others, or everywhere.

but, according to your quote.

1: People have been complaining about these unremovable networks for a long time

2: These networks can't be staff devices, if being talked about like this, this often.But instead are in peoples actual homes IG. (I personally hated this point, as it was dismissive and reductive to the discussion.)

3: Going outside to do your rounds is a good thing. Last time I checked, we were trying to get more people out of their rooms to do this.

4: It sure is important to send the highest skilled person to do it. but this has it's own points.

4a: Not everyone has access to the best.

4b: Not everyone trusts 'the best'

4c: 'The Best' might be lying to you about their skills.

4d: More work for higher skilled techies means they can bring lower skilled apprentices along and teach them/ do techie rp.

4e: Those 'best' techies will eventually rotate out, switch sectors, or the player might stop playing for a while., but these networks will need to be replaced. So we go right back to my previous points about helping newer generations of techies.

4d: New techies can put their own networks in. And learn, and feel useful, and feel like their skills are building them to something.

5: Plans for them to be hacked on the grid EVENTUALLY is well… Not a great answer. Especially given the state of the grid. I'de absolutely love this but, even if they were hackable... That is completely beside the point here. If the point was on a map, this spot would be over where it says 'Here be Dragons.'

6: An increase in trading of network equipment is a net positive, no matter how you try to spin it, and even if marginable. A boon is a boon.

I'de also like to state, I'm not just discussing the 5, 10,15 year old, unremovable cam networks here. All networks that outlive their owners are legacy.

Aside note: I also would not push this change through for 4-6 months. We've had a lot of little to medium changes to the game and economy lately. Things should be given time to stable out, so we don't alienate any players. So I want to put that out there. I wanna discuss this at length so staff can discuss it on their channels, and make adjustments later, after they see where the game is after their current changes fully take root.

By BubbleKangaroo

I just want to point out something to the "2: Unknowingly: "Oh shit, I just apartment lottoed sinn street cams!"

That stuff is supposed to be automatically cleared on evictions. I've had that EXACT scenario happen to me, and I just pretended it didn't exist as I alerted Staff.

Where has this ever been stated? The current design is as follows:

1. Kitchenette is reset

2. All furniture/containers are emptied.

3. All furniture install scores are set to a value so as to prevent players from ever uninstalling them. This includes SIC amps. Hubs, televisions, other security gear, etc are excluded.

4. Actual cameras, if installed inside the apartment are uninstalled and left on the floor.

5. All random, non-furniture items inside the apartment are wiped. I think food items left on the kitchenette aren't, but I can't remember.

That hasn't been the case for the few years I've been playing.

Making it uninstallable is something I think we should collectively consider.

The downside of that is that it immortalizes the networks that people are raising issues with here. For someone who wants to game the system, it would be a straightforward as.. Get pad. Pay brand new tech to install gear. Retire character. BOOM. Uninstallable network hub, screen, etc.

If character installed security gear IS being made so that it cannot be uninstalled by other characters, please revisit that decision.

Thanks.

Moving on, security gear is not purged when rent lapses on a home space. I had to double check myself because we've recently made some changes to what we do clear from apartments when rent ends. You can lotto your way into a camera network etc. You do not need to xhelp to remove it.