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Corpsec and you.
Why you can't just walk into any building in a balaklava.

So, I actually like the additional changes to the bank that were utilized in order to beef up security.  I actually think that all major buildings on Gold--HoJ, Neotrans, SK Tower, Skywatch, NLM, Viriisoma, Energy Museum, and especially Genetek, should be beefed up security-wise with SIC scanners, cameras, weapon scanners, alarms, guards, and most importantly some sort of swarm function similar to @hate used in Bansupero for either corpsec or Judges.  There should be no way in hell someone can walk into and ambush someone within these bastions of corporate might unless upper management decrees that it should be done.

What does this do, then?  It pushes the fight out into the street, where ambushers have to wait in plain (or not so plain) sight of the ambient population.  Masked madmen and madwomen should not be able to roam the streets of Gold freely and without incident. That's just not how it works. Think about Manhattan post 9/11. Would anybody in a ski mask be allowed to walk down Wall Street or onto a subway train?  

Additionally, rooms with amb-pop should roll a perception check against concealment and weapons. If amp-pop fails to spot the weapons or concealment of the character, the character isn't outted for having weapons or concealment via disguise or hide. But, and here's the caveat, the longer a character wields a weapon or remains concealed, the more often amp-pop will attempt perception checks for weapons and concealment. So it's only a matter of time before amp-pop screams bloody murder and corpsec or the WJF roll in to deal with the issue.

Thoughts?

One more thing. I was looking at this as something specific to Gold and upper levels, but it can be applied to some degree in the Mix as well, though not as frequently. The Mix, as it is, is a lawless, dangerous place where the amb-pop doesn't give a fuck about much of anything and few if any businesses will apply security measures similar to the corporate enclaves up on Gold.

Just a couple more chyen,

Grim

It'll be impossible to kill someone on gold then. Meaning no perms...which means everyone will live forever...which means fluffybunny.

Which is awful.

Not that I don't think the ambient security of GOLD should be there, but for gods sake...its hard enough to perm someone as is now. With all that shit, it'll never happens.

That's an incorrect assumption, ReeferMadness.

It doesn't completely fuck players out of their chance to permakill Joe Douchebag. �But it sure as hell makes it harder to do so the longer one stands around in hiding with a gun drawn while wearing a mask.

With high enough marks in certain skills and stats, sure you could stand around in ambush mode for a long time, but that shouldn't mean you could keep doing it indefinitely. �Even in the real world, people take notice of suspicious activities.

I don't want to make it impossible to permakill anybody. �I just think people have gotten very used to the tried and true permakill method and are doing that by rote--I know, because it works--rather than coming up with inventive, out of the box ways of fucking over their adversaries. �To tell you the truth, the tried and true method is down to a science now.

How does the tied and true method work? (We should all know this by now, so play along.) Well, first off, the assailants walk into Genetek or maybe wait at its exits and hide, the victim comes out, gets attacked, maybe flees or doesn't flee, possibly dies or survives, possibly kills one or more of the assailants. But after that, what? You've got a violent commotion in a corporate building and security or the police aren't showing up. �What next? Provided he or she survives, the clone kill victim probably heads to a Gold-side stash, to the bank, or goes into hiding, and the killers try to catch up and wait for him at either the bank or at Sensenet. �Have I got it right so far? So, what happens next? �Another commotion insues provided our victim follows the typical permakill script, probably at the bank, in the open, or at SenseNet/CD. �So, we have at this point one or more incidents wherein the WJF or corpsec should be called, and it isn't happening. �

Permakilling should be high risk, high reward. You are striking your opponent at their very weakest in the heart of the city, surrounded by crowds of people in a highly surveilled area teaming with cops and security. �You are curb stomping your enemy while they are down and at their most vulnerable, but to do so, you have to risk being outed by the very same people who inhabit that locale, being collared by the WJF or Corpsec, or possibly being exposed for your actions and face judgement and retribution. �

But let me add a possible counterweight to this that might actually allay your fears of fluffybunny-ism.

Maybe a balance to my suggestion would be that there's a delay period of twenty-four to forty-eight hours between cloning at SenseNet and receipt of the the clone data at Genetek. So if Joe Douchebag is clone killed and heads over to SenseNet to get a new clone, he's got a couple of days where he's not got clone protection at all, wherein he could be permakilled at any time provided the circumstances were right. �

Does that sound like a fair trade for my initial proposed idea?

Hi guys!

I haven't played for very long so I don't know if this could be true but wouldn't a player who is unable to clone simply just going into hiding and only communicate over the SIC network until he is able to clone again?

I don't think it would be a very good idea of making the alternative of forcing a player to avoid RP for the sake of not getting permed. But then again maybe it would be a good way to ensure that a player is " fearful " about what just happened and could happen to him.

What would everyone think of making specific cloning facilities to match the player. A branch for corpies on Gold Sector and a heavily guarded branch on Red to facilitate the mixers and immigrants? Perhaps those TERRA agents I see walking around could be responsible for guarding it and the admin could use some of those security methods listed by Grim in a form befitting a higher security place in the Red sector.

I suppose that it could potentially make killing someone permanently too easy but maybe if it was setup with proper care it could work and I think it would help eliminate the expectations that Gold is supposed to be too high security for someone to be stalking another player to PK them.

However I don't really know how people try to PK people now and I haven't tried to do it myself so if this sounds completely out of the question I am sorry!


I like the point that somebody wearing a disguise should stick out. Openly displayed weapons should stick out. Somebody punching a wet and dripping naked body just outside the VATs should stand out. The authorities should respond to any situations of violence. You attack somebody in front of a TERRA agent there should be a high chance the TERRA agent will step in. That being said, I'd hate to be shot in the face simply because I was wearing a disguise that concealed my face. Not all disguises stand out. As for PKing, Gold isn't the most classy place to die. I believe ALL characters should go out with a bang. Death isn't fun because it always occurs when the RP is at its climax. I've always found death having this mystique of excitement. However, when the blood pours down your screen the momentum of things come to a screeching halt. When somebody is permed, that halt is forever (until chargen). The history and aspirations of that character are gone. It's likely the character never got to the position in society that he or she would have liked. The role play that is brought about before a permakill should provide closure to that characters story even though the end result was failure. It's the archetype of a tragic hero, though the protagonist has met demise, there is vindication in those final moments. Pardon if I am romanticizing cyberpunk a wee bit for your tastes. No harm intended :D

Hi Cryer!

I'm not sure I can completely agree with you on your points.

I believe that if a player puts themselves in a position to make someone else or multiple people want to try to deliver a PK isn't the player the one making a choice that leads your character to this point and potentially to a final death? That is how you choose to RP your character and it has brought you down a path that has resulted in other player's characters wanting to make you disappear from the game.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you make someone want to PK you then those feelings towards your character are a product of your choice of RP and the path you choose to follow with your character. I don't think someone is owed a fairy tale ending if it is there own free will that brought them this conclusion.

I hope that makes sense!


I suppose what is being pointed out by Cryer is that a death should be RP'd just as much as moments in that character's life.  Perhaps he's suggesting that we spice up player deaths to make them interesting, rather than mundane and repetitive.

Rather than PK the fucker at Genetek, how about you knock them out, kidnap them, handcuff them, drag them down into the sewers, weight them down with heavy items, and drown them in the cistern? Now -that's- a way to go.  Or how about you leave them alone, but rig the doors at Genetek or SenseNet with explosives? You let them walk out of Genetek in one piece and let the bombs do the dirty work.  Or worse, how about you have your decker friend hack the HoJ database and put an APB out with kill on sight orders so that when your enemy pops in front of a Judge, he's Judged on the spot?  That's a what the fuck moment right there.  Or hell, beat the fucker within an inch of his or her life, drive them into one of the now eternally long express tubes and eject them into traffic. What I think Cryer is expressing is that
we need to send people out in style, even though there are times when it's worthwhile to put somebody down like a dog.

Thanks for your reply Grim,

I can understand what you said but PKing is between players  and I think the RP should flow well between them right up until the point of a PK.

How do you enforce players giving elaborate PKs to other players without taking the ability of PKing away and have them discuss it prior with an admin and having admin assistance?

What if it's too difficult to do those things you mentioned because of the security on Gold?

If you rig the doors on the cloning place won't someone call the cops or won't the ambient population detonate it themselves?

I don't think the things you mentioned can be accomplish if you heightened the ambient security realism.

Sorry again if I'm misunderstanding how things actually are!

Before anything goes in-game to make perma-killing harder, it needs to be made easier.

Why?

Because the people who need to be perma-killed aren't simple people who pissed people off as though it may seem. They're PC's who have outlived themselved. Become to uber for the little guy to even shit on.

I recognize Grim's viewpoints on Gold security and they make sense BUT here are some other things that also make sense...

Your molecular matter has just been spawned out of nothing. Whee! You can now sneak through gold sector like a bat outta hell, seeking cover in safe room and easily clone.

How about...NO.

How about, you're fucking brutally exhausted and everything hurts more then sin. You can barely stagger down the street, let alone sneak around.

People need to die. Its the best way for the game to open up new chances and new opportunities for everyone who plays. Its this lets all be friend and do biz mentality that leaves everyone at the same hangouts discussing the same old shit night after night.

I'm about two seconds away from a complete rant so umm...yeah, fuck this.

I'm agreeing with a lot of what's being said here.  There shouldn't be a lot of random violence topside.  If something like this were to be implemented, I would want it to also reflect the tiered nature of the city.  Yes, security should be beefed up on Gold, but it should be really tight on green.  And any suspicious or violent person on Blue should be swarmed instantly.

As for characters that people think "should" be permakilled.  I think it's partly the players choice when to decide they're character has outlived what they should and maybe arrange a spectacular permadeath.  Those characters who are so uber, should be able to have a permadeath that will make people stand up and take notice, with news, or even actual footage of it ending up on TV and such.  Now, if there are characters out there who are just so uber at they sit atop a throne, lording it over everyone else that they're invincible, then maybe it's time for the gms to step in and knock them off their high horse.  There's always a bigger fish, even if it's not among the player base.

Perming -is- a good thing. Keeps things fresh and allows the monopolistic powers to tilt. But when the most powerful players are being killed on gold with more bullets than words, there is a problem. Remember, style is above everything. In the movies, the bad guy always has to give speech before he pulls the trigger on the hero, and in doing so he gives the hero's accomplice enough time to make things interesting. It may be stupid from a practical and utilitarian point of view, however we aren't interested in getting the job done, we're interested in making things interesting. Making it easier to perm somebody sounds good to me. Making the world feel more real by having your environment react to your suspicious or dubious action is also good. From my understanding the original intent of the idea is to make perms more interesting not more scarce. Maybe the authorities show up and upon identification they simply kill both of you. Or maybe somebody hacked the WJF database and they kill the victim not the aggressor. I'd love to see a situation where the WJF have Genetek surrounded and after killing the aggressor it's only a matter of time until we have two players fresh out of the vats fighting for survival. Perhaps one even has a grenade and intends to perm their rival at all costs, even if it results in suicide. I would have an amazing amount of respect for a player who had the audacity to perm himself in the process of removing my character from the game.

There isn't always time for style, as tragic as it is. No one wants to be perma-killed and will normally twink out at all costs of surviving.

It sucks but its the reality of the situation.

Reminds me of the suggestion I made of being able to cripple people. Effectively you've killed them but it gives you a chance to subject them to some RP whether they like it or not.

Edit: And as little as anybody else is talking about it. I -still- like the idea of obviously out of place people being treated with hostility.

(Edited by Cryer at 2:49 pm on Jan. 28, 2009)

That'd be sweet.

I've talked extensively with Johnny about trying to figure out a way to make perming more possible...but I think it comes down to trusting the player not to supercheese, as usual. Just the way it is.


Damn it people!  Stop being such pussies.  So what if you get permakilled.  Sometimes, you just need to move on.  Start shit with a tough character when you don't have a clone.  Try knifing the guy who's holding a hand cannon.  Have a tragic, sudden ending.  This game is about desperate people trying to survive in a dark, distopian future, not friggin' superheroes who can't die short of a nuke going off in their face.  Hopefully this won't be crossing too many ic/ooc boundaries, but a certain quotable character of mine went out in a fight against a former friend, no clone and a sinking suspicion that he was going to lose. Making a new character is fun.  It really is.

I think I missed the post that said it should be harder to permakill. Otherwise, amen to Hirononbu!

Amen to Reefer and Hiro!  I think perming should be easier the stronger you are, because the stronger you are the better you should be at protecting yourself.  Multiple places to clone and be cloned and whatnot are a great idea.  Killing without RP is super wack, lame, shitty, and a huge steaming pile of bullshit.  Unfortunately it is -rarely- necessary, but should be kept to the lowest possible minimum.  If you've had a character for years upon years then a glorious ending should be an option if you want (anyone got any ideas message me)   I think these are all great things to be discussed, I think the slumping game economy is a root to some of this.  IMHO.  I think we should discuss making that better.   Upping security on Gold, great idea.    Sorry that was a bit all over, I'll organize my thoughts better and come back to this.

Some of you will talk like perming is all good and fine.  But don't bullshit, you'll whine and bitch like everybody does, and everybody will, when it happens to a character you actually value.

I valued Yoshiyuki more than ANY other character I've ever had. By far. Did I whine and bitch when he got permed?  No, seriously, did I?  I don't remember.  Damn, that was a long time ago.

I think perming is good and fine. In fact, I think its fucking awesome. Do I like to get permed? Yes and No. In the short term, it aggrevates me...makes me mad for a few hours until I come to grips with the fact that SD is a game I like...just a game. In the long term, I get to create a new character and fuck up everyone's shit all over again in a brand new way.

I've valued all my characters...except for the japanese munitions dude who existed prior to any munitions code. Some of them have had significant impacts, other not so significant. Everything is all about legacy. You either burn real fucking bright till you explode...or you fade away.

Just the way it is.

Aye, I've put two on the perm list before.  There's a sense of guilt to it, I'm not a fan.  When my character dies, I've no doubt I'll be upset for a bit and will reroll.  Thing is, the -only- reason its not easy right now, is because people sense a risk of perm and bolt during the cloning process.  Its happened to me, and I've admittedly done it before.  Taking that ability away, the ability to keep the char you want alive, will lose me as a player.  Its partially my choice whether or not to end it.  Not just yours because you want to keep your throne.

And I say you and your figuratively.  I am not pointing fingers and saying anything about anyone.  Just a generalization to you all.

Hi Damarung!


I think that your choice in where or not you get permed is the choices you make in your RP that lead to having an enemy that wants to kill you..

Just like the choices we make in RL having consequences.

Everyone can control whether or not people will want to perm them through the choices they make in their RP, right?

All I'm saying is the game you guys sound like you want is CyberSphere.  If you want wanton death and dismay, then go there.  This place is factored around the RP.  My character is a combat character, from day one his stats have been geared for nothing more than smashing people's faces.  Get cyberware, kill the few people that have cyberware to make them at his -normal- skill level and suddenly I can capitalize.  Perm you all a couple times and he rules the playerbase with an iron fist.

Who wants that?  Not me.  But its what I've been seeing and watching.  That's what its going to gear towards you give a player the ability to perm at their leisure.  ESPECIALLY if you allow someone who thinks its just peachy.

Quote: I am not pointing fingers and saying anything about anyone.

I'm gonna perm you, son. I am mad gangsta. :swordfight:  

Sorry, couldn't resist.

You have a choice, dude...however, that choice is between removing yourself from danger. Typically meaning forced banishment from RP with specific character. Which on occasion I've found not to be a sacrifice at all...

Perming isn't about you staying on the throne or me sitting on that shiny porcelain toilet.

Its about opening up spots for new players...

Here's a lil' something.

I try and think of it as a public service of sorts. If your RP is old and stanky, you contribute almost nothing to the game. PERM YOURSELF.

If you've reached the pinnacle of your rise to power, done what you had to do...can't find anymore use for yourself...and wanna go out with the bang you desert before you choke on a soybar. PERM YOURSELF.

I think we get the point....

IF some asshole fashions themselves ruler of the entire PBase through force, they PBase normally strikes back...and its ugly. Really ugly.

Sometimes revenge is RP though...but maybe everyone's switched sides so many times they forgot someone had picked one?

Also, the kind of epic struggle to live, die, and kill your enemies...is great RP...when you're not hiding in a cube. Its also great for the economy. :)

Definitely agree with most of what your saying Reefer.

When your rp becomes stale, aye, take your ass out.  I'll not point out any characters who suffered that fate *coughGerikcough*

As long as you can find a roll, something to bring a little energy to the game, keep on rolling.  I'll not perm unless there's a damn good reason.  Or...on one occasion, my char has you by the balls and just wants answers, and ya spit on his face.  Then, Cy, ya made your own choice.  And I'll not be permed until I feel the time is right and a legacy other than 'biggest slut ever' is filled.

Hi everyone! Thanks for all the feedback on this idea, but I think it's been derailed a bit and gone off topic. �When I initiated this idea, it wasn't with the intention of making it impossible to permakill another character. �In fact, there are plenty of times when it is necessary to get rid f characters for good. �Some chummer stepping on your business and roughing up your crew? Frost his ass. �Some cop upping the weekly blat payment he's expecting and saying he's gonna shill on you to his supervisors? Knock him down for good so he can't do that. �That street hussy you're pimping -still- hasn't come up with the thirty-grand she stole from you the night she was sucking your cock? You get what I'm saying. �

No, the intention of my idea was to assist in enforcing the one rule that we all ought to follow game-wise above all else. �IC actions call for IC consequences. �Let's face it, right now, our admin are doing their damnedest to manage the player base we currently have, code a bunch of exciting stuff, and still find time for their work and personal lives. �I doubt it's all in that order but I'd hope so! �Anyway, a coded means of dealing with certain IC actions based on ambient population and the manipulation of gangers, TERRA agents, and Judges may alleviate the number of times when an admin has to be called away from what they -are- doing for the MOO in order to handle something that involves NPC/player character interaction.

And my idea doesn't necessarily call for making it impossible. It just makes it damned near difficult to do the dirty deed inside certain businesses. You can -still- kill a fucker on Gold. Hell, you can -still- attempt to do so in Genetek, etc. You may just have to kill a few guards and Judges if you wait around long enough. �But the key to my idea isn't about permakilling. It's about consequences. �This goes in the same vein as the shoplift code. �If you steal from the candy store enough times, or keep trying to steal from the same store, your chances of being caught are gonna skyrocket. �It's just that simple. �With greater risk comes greater reward. �Hell, I'll say it again, the one of greatest rewards is permanently frosting a long-time enemy at all odds.

And let me point out that this idea shouldn't be the single overriding factor in game-play with regard to PKing characters. �If you don't like the idea. Come up with an idea that counters it and brings balance to the gameplay so that it's fun for everybody. �Hell, I've already suggested one idea that may counter the rational that it's going to be more difficult to PK someone. �Fucking put a time gap between clone payment and clone activation.

So, to bring this thread back around, are there any ideas that will augment the one I've put forth and do any of you folks have ideas that may counterbalance my idea so that it's feasible and not something that will discourage PKing?

Sounds like what I'm hearing is it needs to be difficult to perm characters who's owners deeply value them. And it needs to be easy to perm characters who aren't contributing to RP or are too powerful for their own good.
However, I think it's going to be a fact of life for people that they're going to die even when they don't want to. You can't just stop the momentum of things and OOCly and say you don't want to die. You can beg ICly that you don't have a clone and the aggressor should take that into consideration when they decide your fate. But the fact remains that if you were placed in a compromising position and you lose, that's the end of it.
In a dystopian world we can't expect to hold hands. To play the game successfully you need to be tolerant of death.
That being said, it -behooves- an individual submitting the final blow to make it an honorable and well RPed one. If I was plucked from the game moments before my finest hour, I'd be much more tolerant of a person who killed me because they didn't want me to see success and they added RP to make my character "suffer" before he died than one who just entered combat and ended it as soon as possible.
To sum up, new blood is good. We want to keep a cycle of power going so no one person becomes monolithically strong. Death is good, I wouldn't go as far to say it's good for the economy but it's definately good for theme. Roleplay is good and should be expected. Kill on sight pushes the line, it needs to be done responsibly. Finally, ff you have an IC reason to die, it's time.
Going back to the original idea however, if you wear a balaclava into an American airport you WILL be stopped. Same should go in game, even if it's just having a bunch of NPC's shout at you and follow you around. Lets think of acceptable reactions NPCs can have to reflect this realistically without disrupting the balance of things.

Okay, I forget who pointed this out in a previous thread post, but I like the idea of having characters emerge from the vats incredibly exhausted. That gives characters a limited number of actions they can make in the space of time they crawl out of the muck and clone-goo that is the Genetek Revival process.  This opens up something new to the playerbase that may or may not already be in existence. The concept of post-clone bodyguards. I'm talking guys who for the right pay-later contract will at the very least get you into a cab or something without having you torn to shit and back.  I suppose that last statement really is dependent upon how skilled the bodyguard is, doesn't it?  Anyway. What are your thoughts on counterbalancing increased security with severely decreased stamina and/or reduced actions post-cloning?

I like the weakness idea.  I've thought for a while its bullshit to kill someone, they clone, then since they are in perfect condition, come find you and just happen to pick a fight.  And WIN because they're in perfect condition and your not -.-

Anyway, that's off subject.  I like the weakness, but I also think the security should be intensified.  Here's how you solve trying to kill someone in a corporate lobby.  Those fancy lasers in Genetek could be spread around a bit.  More security doors like the one found in Neotrans.  BUT there's an added bonus, IF your retarted enough to step in there with a gun, lockdown, and you get to wait for a judge/admin to come set you free or bust your ass for carrying a weapon.

Meh. Take the Judge out of it.  Corporate buildings are sovereign property. Just set the security checkpoints to toast anybody stupid enough to carry a weapon therein, a la the laser airlock in Resident Evil.

"Attention vistor! You are not in compliance with Genetek Revival's firearm policy! Per City ordinance 553.0.72b, we are hereby revoking your life status! Have a nice day and thank you for using Genetek Revival!"

Heh...that sorta sucks the rp outta the ordeal.

That was actually a joke. A funny one, but a joke nonetheless.

Fatigue coming out of the vats is a pretty good idea. What should new clones feel like? Sore, stiff, nauseous, disoriented, dizzy, slow synapses? We have a ride range of ailments to afflict on clones to help balance tougher responses to assailants. Heck, what's to say that guard you hired to escort you to your cab isn't being payed twice as much to finish you himself? Or what's to say the cab driver isn't in on some scheme to take you to secure location where a gang of thugs will beat you shit less just to prove they could kill you -that- easily. If my greatest enemy held my very life in his hands multiple times and each time said "You have X more chances to meet my demands" ... I'd be scared shitless!

/quote

That being said, it -behooves- an individual submitting the final blow to make it an honorable and well RPed one.

/quote

Fuckin true!

I don't really have anything to add at this point, I just tear up every time someone mentions the old shoplift code that -should- be revamped by now.  hehehe.

again, I just browsed most of this, but on the point of Perma-killing a bitch, it's alot more fun to kill them over and over until they have nothing left, not even enough for mag-lev fare, and then catching them slip in the slums.

I used to think it was waaaaaay to easy to bump people off topside. I know, I did it. ALOT.

I've been reading this thread a little more in depth and just wanted to speak some peace.

My character was forced into a hiatus. Now I really don't care becuase I'm deployed in Afghanistan and don't have the time to dedicate to some good schemes, but before this, there was talk of my character going out ina blaze of bullets. You know what I said? I said fuck that. Why? Is it becuase he is old? Too much time spent on him? No. Was it becuase people would hide in their apartments and not come out becuase they were scared of him? No. Infact that made me LOL. I'll tell you why.

Becuase nobody was in a position to knock him off the grind and take from him what he had. Nobody was outsmarting, out gunning, or outfooting him to that point. I'm not trying to brag or come in on some high horse, becuase honestly it's not a big thing. I'm just sayin if you wanna perm a big baller, then step the fuck up and perm a big baller.  It shouldn't be up to me if my char get permed or not. It should be up to whoever wants to take his spot on the food chain.

The food chain people.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 4:30 am on Jan. 28, 2009[br]It'll be impossible to kill someone on gold then. Meaning no perms...which means everyone will live forever...which means fluffybunny.

Which is awful.

Not that I don't think the ambient security of GOLD should be there, but for gods sake...its hard enough to perm someone as is now. With all that shit, it'll never happens.

I resemble that remark.

I'm not sure what I think of fatigue coming out of the vats.  I dislike it because you've just died, waiting 15 minutes to clone, and are itching to get back into the RP.  

Plus, it would making perming much easier, and perming should be hard, something you have to plot to get done.