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Cybertech Insurance
Improving that cyber game...

Would love to see cyberware plans when you get legal cyberware from a clinic.

Basic plan is no coverage at all.

Silver plan is you pay 40% extra upfront for the cyber, and weekly payments equal to 9% of the cyber. If the ware is lost before 30 days have passed, there is no recompense. If the ware is lost before 60 days have passed, you can choose on clone to buy the cyberware for 50% of base price with free installation. After 60 days, it's 90% off of base price with free installation.

Platinum plan is you pay 80% extra upfront for the cyber, and weekly payments equal to 5% of the cyber. If the ware is lost before 14 days have passed, there is no recompense. If the ware is lost before 30 days have passed, the ware is 50% off. Otherwise it's 90% off.

There's the ability to game the system, but I think if you're willing to commit fraud, there should be a reward. Additionally, every time you take up the insurance plan, the weekly payment should go up by 3% the base price of the cyber.

Alternatively, since this is corporate hell. I'd also perhaps suggest that it's impossible to buy legit cyberware without a plan at all, and make the basic plan cost money and give terrible, shitty insurance.
This this a thousand times this.

Things this opens the door to:

Uninsurable mods (bioware like nanogenics, vat grown organs, customized/modded tech, black market warez, and cut-rate tech that is no longer supported by SK)

Cyberlimbs!! You could even make the basic metal/plastic limbs with little function be kind of cheap to insure, with things like hand razors or autoinjectors adding a hefty charge on top of that.

Plans could be all or nothing or more granular and cost-effective, and the mandatory buy-in on legit warez is an incredible idea.

In the past, people died so often this would just be free money, but with things like ganger code in place to make death for wealthy/experienced/connected characters more of a dramatic rarity you'd see a lot of people burning flash they didn't need on peace of mind and the occasional sucker eating a bullet without insurance 'cause he thought he was safe.

I should add that versions of this are in place for certain characters. Imagine if instead of pestering a GM for requisitions you just had [!] Insured by Saedor-Krupp on your sheet.
This make sense to a point, I've tried to create this ICly but it takes a lot of money and time to get it built that way. Repoman would be cool, but who is going to bother? Also cyberware is expensive generally and it would make sense to insure it.

But by that logic, I want a car insurance and space ship insurance and insurance for all my expensive gear. Also for my pad, in case I forget to lock the door.

I've said it before, I don't like when automation takes away RP and flash from players and the cyberdocs also need all the flash they can get.

I am not against the concept, because insurance seems themely but I am not super sure about how this would actually work and not debilitate/nerf the players who would usually benefit/profit from this, I've seen it implemented in other games tho to an extent , so it might not be impossible.

Installing cyberware isn't really engaging RP. I played a cyberdoc. Someone comes in and tells you what they want, you go buy it from a kiosk, then you type a couple of canned commands and the whole thing goes off automatically. 90% of the time I just go see an NPC for installs anyway.

It's like being a mechanic or a medic. Typing install thing on X or heal person isn't where your RP comes from.

The RP as a cyberdoc comes from advising patients on what to get, tricking them into losing their shit so they need more, talking them into making purchases, ripping chrome, selling data on patients, etc. etc. This would not take most of that away, and see my post above about uninsurable and moddable parts.

Just to jab fun at "WHY NOT SHIP INSURANCE", sure, but that's not what this thread is about. (Though, I agree anyways. Insurance is such a good scam.)

A closer comparison is tattoos. Tattoos transfer on death, and the important thing to note is it's part of your character's identity -- just as much as cyber is. Your car is a thing you own, but it exists outside of your body.

I'd like to see the same extended to cyber as tattoos are.

In general I find there is a huge systemic problem with things being way, way too valuable in relation to player incomes which makes people conflict adverse because the cost of a mistake can be insane in terms of time-to-recover.

With two optimally equipped max UE combat characters, the best policy is frequently to never engage and instead punch down, because if you die not only do you lose everything, but you just gave your enemy a massive windfall and it spirals from there.

SD in general promotes failing towards daylight, but gear is so, so expensive compared to how the economy is calibrated, I think anything that softens the blow of catastrophic failure would be an improvement in terms of encouraging risks.

This, a thousand times this, or something similar to it. A

I keep watching Cyberpunk 2077 trailers, and everyone is all chromed up, but people rarely get chrome because of cost + risk.

One IC justification could be that it is easier to install chrome on a clone than it is on a living, breathing person, especially when that clone is being updated to already have the neural pathways and stuff built in. Really, though, the IC doesn't matter.

OOCly, I think the game would be more cyberpunk with more chrome, and the cost + death risk is a big reason people don't get it. Hell, one of the reason nanos are so popular is that they can't be ripped, so they aren't a reason for someone to come kill you. Being roided out or whatever is cool, but it's not as cool as bulging chrome muscles on your cyber arm, I think. Anything that makes being chromed out more ICly palatable is good.

@ox

"With two optimally equipped max UE combat characters, the best policy is frequently to never engage and instead punch down, because if you die not only do you lose everything, but you just gave your enemy a massive windfall and it spirals from there."

This just isn't true at all and I don't think it has a place in this thread. The GMs don't even allow "max UE combat characters" to run around doing stuff like this, so it's extremely inaccurate. I also don't think anyone with one of these characters finds it fun to run around beating up immies or something.

There are even similar versions to what was suggested here available for established characters that can mitigate the loss of gear at the mid to upper level.

"fall toward daylight" that's a new one. Googled it. Not an established cliche.

What's it mean?

It's a play on 'crawl toward daylight' ie. arduously working towards some distant goal, except in Sindome sometimes crawling is too much to hope for.
Insurance implementation in every game I've ever played has either been done in one of two manners:

1) Garbage cost:reimbursement ratios whereby people don't even bother buying it in the first place

or

2) Some parity between cost:reimbursement ratios whereby it's worth it for players to use insurance policies, and then it's exploited in every way possibly imaginable.

As much as I like the idea of people being less risk-adverse and willing to go out and risk all their flash loot more often, I don't think that chrome insurance is the way to go about it. to contribute to the theme of this thread though, I would say that I'd really like to see the chrome that assists with corpse location and retrieval that I suggested in the chrome suggestions thread get implemented. I'd be way more in favor of seeing an item introduced that allowed for Trauma Team or DocWagon gameplay over a coded solution to replace lost chrome based on subscription services.

2) Some parity between cost:reimbursement ratios whereby it's worth it for players to use insurance policies, and then it's exploited in every way possibly imaginable.

That's okay. Exploiting the system is in theme, it just needs to have a risk associated with it is all. That was just the 3% raise every time the insurance is cashed out on for me and the grace period window, but there are even other ways of doing it.

Considering that people working for certain organizations already have all or most of their chrome returned to them at cost, I don't know who exactly this would benefit.

Payment plans never work out either, unless between players, as you never know when someone's character might not be available for IC or OOC reasons.

It would benefit me, otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it. I can't speak for others.

I agree with Vera's comment that it would make non-mechanic-enhancing cyberlimbs more commonplace, which is something I personally would like to see more of, and even have on my own character.

It would benefit me, otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it. I can't speak for others.

I agree with Vera's comment that it would make non-mechanic-enhancing cyberlimbs more commonplace, which is something I personally would like to see more of, and even have on my own character.

Yeah right. This already exists. Corporations, factions pay for your chrome for free when you reach a certain rank. Corporations and your allegiance to them ARE your insurance. Why would they let filthy Mixers subscribe to anything remotely resembling a financial system that's not almost tribal in nature?
The version that exists for corporations and factions is not very good because it covers monetary costs but doesn't cover time and labor. Rather than 3D printing implants into your clone you just get handed a wad lf cash and told to go figure it out. Again: The money is not usually the issue, it's the very unfun drawn out days-long process of getting your installs done again.

As for the fear it would 'take away RP' - did giving Chow an automated resuscitate verb take RP away from medics? No, it just created more RP for combat people.

Step 1: Pay your deductible. This is a healthy chunk of cash that is less than the cost of your insured cyberware but enough to make it non-trivial.

Step 2: Wait 48 hours for processing. This prevents people from buying insurance right before doing something suicidal.

Step 3: Start paying week to week coverage. Like rent, this can be paid in advance. This bill is much smaller than your deductible but ideally would add up to the same cost as your insured cyberware after like six weeks or so. This means that dying once a month is actually less expensive than getting your cyberware installed once a month, but dying once every eight weeks is MORE expensive.

Ideally, certain things wouldn't be insurable. You could even use this system to draw a stronger distinction between cyberware and bioware. A cyberarm that offers half the benefit of muscle grafts but persists clone to clone could be tempting compared to a shot that is more powerful but can't be insured and needs reinstallation every time.

The end result would ideally be that well-funded characters would not be more afraid of death than poor ones, and that a player who needs cyberware to be successful (such as a high level combat character in the mix) would not be totally sidelined for 3 days waiting on a puppet or a PC cyberdoc to get to them.

This is NOT a payment plan. You never pay anything off, more bills are always due. It's a QOL improvement for cyborgs that would enable more diverse and interesting warez and a constant drain on the economy.

In my experience they cover both the chrome and fees, and let you decide (e.g. they empower you) how you get your chrome. Don't think that should be your sponsor's responsibility other than hoping you're not embezzling it. The fact that corporations hold chrome and other benefits over your head in exchange for undying allegiance, along with other factors, make credit systems an unlikely system from a themely perspective.

Maybe the whole process can be streamlined or audited, but that's not where we're at in this discussion yet.

Vera, in a situation like that the whole system should be gated behind corporate status at a minimum. Other than themely implications it seems a well thought proposal for gameplay purposes.
There's a larger discussion to be had about the core movement of cyberpunk, Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body. -- Lawrence Person

In addition to the benefits outlined above (roleplay opportunities, removing tedium, adding additional sinks to the economy), it's just very thematic for the genre this game claims to be. Though, in 30 years SD still hasn't even finished decking, so .. priorities.

I don't think it's necessary to remove the corporate benefits for cyberware, this isn't an either/or discussion. But the insurance plan to make cyber more prevalent is a noble game design goal for enforcing theme.

Those are my thoughts.

Vera, in a situation like that the whole system should be gated behind corporate status at a minimum.

Cash is king, baby. If I can afford to insure a full suite of chrome because I'm a badass solo who can take on the guys at the top I should have that option.

Corporations and certain factions should absolutely extend varying levels of insurance coverage to their employees as is appropriate for their rank. Joe Nobody? Maybe he can insure his cyberarm and nothing else out of pocket IF he hustles as hard as he can, but he's probably not even going to bother because he's probably better off just trying not to die.

Either way, the rich and powerful have easy access to the service and it's something the little guys wish they had.

(ugh i hate double posting, edit button pleeease)

Playing a solo is incredibly difficult and almost not worth doing because you can make one wrong move and be unable to continue playing your archetype. Giving these guys the ability to pay out of pocket for insurance would make them better able to stay in the game, which benefits everyone.

My only statement is that chrome is a defining feature of cyberpunk, and we just don't see a lot of it. Any system that encourages people to have actual cyberware makes the game more CP. If this isn't that system, there should be something -- though maybe that's a thread that deserves to be on the 'Game Problems' board since it's really a search for a solution.
we just don't see a lot of it

A lot of it can't be seen and people have reasons, both obvious and not-obvious ones, to not reveal their existence.

This idea could be done 100% with RP. When I was a cyberdoc I could have made a very good go of running my own insurance offering. I just never thought about it - I wish I had! But the income stream could have been decent - I think some customers would have taken the offer and some of them would not.

That's an under-one-roof situation. A wealthy baron who's not a cyberdoc could offer it and meanwhile groom one or more cybderdoc characters to be as close to on-call as reasonable. For the right price or the right promises this could/would mitigate the "I can't find a cyberdoc" problem.

I get it, about the quality-of-life seeking behind this idea. I'm not convinced that some of the proposed benefits of implementing this in code would come about, even with very careful "tuning" of the specifics of the costs and terms.

I'm not wild about automating re-installs because this is one of those roles which PCs should have the opportunity to perform. Not just for the pay and the RP but also for the potential paydata and connections.

Lastly: I made so much RP out of being a cyberdoc. The "it's just an automated skill and is shit for RP" argument is very very far from my experience. I LOVED the rp around the procedure itself - it led to very very satisfied customers. Everyone has questions, even if they don't know that they do. Give them a clue that you'll pay attention, and they'll bring all kinds of shit to the operating room and let you in on it.

What very said about it being very hard to play a solo due to the possibility of losing it all is very relevant. There are ways to get your gear back and PCs you can go to for loans if you ever find yourself in that position, but as a permanent solution this suggestion isn't bad at all.

I disagree with this being locked behind corp status for this exact reason. Corpies die a lot less and most of them aren't even in a position where they could die in the first place. Do it for the solos, if nobody else.

*What Vera said.

that typo.

You've brought fair points and I think it's fair to empower solos from now on.
This needs to be simplified to be implementable.

No discount wares as part of it, no free installations, nothing directly with Genetek. Just needs to be an insurance product that pays on your untimely demise, not some top to bottom integrated solution. Insured wares become the property of the insurance company upon death, probably let rippers drop them off. Insurance cost go up with each policy redemption - probably small increases at first, but exponentially rising. Purchasable before install, no payments.

@Johnny

Would there be some form of natural decay over time from making regular payments without dying and/or for not simply dying?

A couple of thoughts.

1. What prevents this from becoming a "win more" mechanic?

On the surface this seems like something that will be used by players to put their already powerful characters even further out of reach / free from harm. To understand that, put yourself on the other side of the equation. You manage to finally kill your rival, but like some horrible boss fight they pop right out of the vat still fully chromed and ready for round two.

In the current system when a powerful character takes a trip to the vat and has to spend a couple of days getting re-geared, there is an opportunity created for other characters to take advantage of that down time.

2. What prevents this from effectively INCREASING the cost of augmentations?

The argument is being made that augmentations are too expensive. Insurance has the potential to drive up the cost of augmentations even further by making it a "must have". Players will just wait longer until they can afford the aug + insurance.

Consider that some people are so risk adverse that they are already avoiding cyberware. On the surface, cyber insurance is a proposal to reduce risk for those risk adverse players. But surely you can see the conundrum here.

"I can't afford to spend chyen on cyber that I might lose. Cyber is too expensive. But I can insure my cyber. But now I need to come up with the cost of the Cyber PLUS the cost of the insurance."

If this is just a money thing then I don't think it's necessary or helpful and don't really care about it.

I just want 3D printed warez in my clone so I don't have to wait for a puppet next time I die and am willing to pay through the nose for the privilege.

Sindome is pretty rife with win-more mechanics, but insurance is a come-back mechanic. If you die and lose everything, you are not winning more by having insurance, you're losing less.

I don't disagree there are issues with wealthy and powerful characters basically just getting on runaway more-wealth more-power paths that have no end point (until they retire or just stop playing) but loss mitigation (if properly attuned) is beneficial to every wealth bracket, that has been very thoroughly demonstrated by modern economics.

One last thought.

If this becomes A Thing, it should be limited to corporate characters.

What insurance company in their right mind is going to insure a Mixer? That is a loss waiting to happen.

The insurance industry is predicated on minimizing risk and collecting more than they pay out. They do not want people filing claims.

This whole premise is that Chrome loss is inevitable. That's a horrible bet for an insurance company to make.

I don't agree that the premise is that loss is inevitable. It may be true of the player-character population, but it's not unthemely. The player-character population are exceptionally risk-taking, compared to the rest of the crushing masses.

Premiums from a risk pool cover payouts to claimants, that's insurance 101. Just assume that your claim is subsidized by policy buyers who aren't making claims.

@beandip

How many of the crushing masses can even afford cyber? How about cyber AND insurance?

Aren't PC the exceptional few who rise above the masses?

I agree with Johnny, per my original vision I over-engineered it. A payout is fine, as long as it increases in weekly costs every time it's cashed out.

If there was a way to programatically tell if you committed suicide, voiding the insurance on that would also be ideal.

I absolutely disagree flat out it should be limited only to corpie only characters. Sorry, they don't need it. And that already exists through employer-guaranteed cybernetics. This is to fill a different niche. :)