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Forensic Mayhem
body lotto...heh

Imagine: Bob comes home to his apartment in Westinghaus. He is mildly surprised to find his room mate Jim dead on the floor. Bob, being a law abiding citizen, calls WJF-Ops. A Judge rocks up to assess the situation. Immediate evidence, the bod, tells our Judge the victim has been dead for a day or so. Judge prowls about asking questions, scaring Bob more than likely, some door knocking, following procedure and their nose. Dead end perhaps. They got a body and City Services is called. Scenario 2 begins at dead end, but before City Services is called, the crime scene is logged for the WHJ forensic unit.

The over worked Admins cannot be in five places at once and don't have the time to plant RP evidence on every body found in the city. I mean, we see at least 3 to 4 corpses (or more) a week. So what evidence, in a code friendly universe, could be easily and automatically placed at the scene. Perhaps weapon of death. Corpse code could include rough form of death. Beaten with a carbon pipe equals blunt force trauma, weapon diameter. Gunshot to the temple, well, gunshot to the temple, etc. To average Joe on the street, this sort of evidence is not accessible. Body is transported to WHJ forensic lab for examination before City Services comes and collects. At the crime scene the corpse could leave evidence, attributes placed on the apartment object itself. Evidence as simple as Jim was killed here / Jim was not killed here and his body was moved to the apartment. No need for deep scientific evidence. Just the fundamentals to fire an investigation. A corpse could hold a 'DNA' sample if it is handled (City Services needs some big ass gloves and overalls). A room object could sustain multiple evidence readings. Six months of killing and there are a dozen bodies. More trouble for the forensic scientist. Sifting through evidence.

Back at the lab the body could be examined. A string of 5 or 6 evidence tags are produced in a report for the forensic player. Time of death, 'logical' cause of death based on the body, DNA if corpse was handled, perhaps even physical evidence from melee or blade weapon, although this would require I think a bollocks of a code hiccup in combat against #dbref of weapon, calibre of bullet, etc. WHJ gets a water barrel and we have a matching system for bullets, of course the old weaponsmith skill could replace barrels, etc. My whole rational for this rather long post is for a coded environment where a body / murder scene can be analysed to rip out some vitals for an investigation. Judges are hard pressed enough to manage the actual live crimes, getting shot at, arresting people, etc. A body is just a body. If the forensic boffins can dig around in the congealed blood and muck and produce reports, even match data against data, investigations can move forward.

Problems I see are DNA samples. This isn't RL. To keep DNA samples on citizens after an arrest or whatever would pose a lot of RP problems. Your garden variety villain is going to give up his career and do WW runs forever if everything he touches can get him pinched. Perhaps some 'fudging' of reality might be needed. DNA samples disintegrate after a period of time. I know, I know, the record of DNA is data, just step outa that pocket of logic for a mo. Cloning could cause the destruction of DNA samples. It's a genetic thing. It's a GenTek thing. Maybe a fuck up, maybe it was done on purpose, maybe a geneticist didn't want the city to have that much power, who knows, but without a major push by WHJ against the clone labs to change it, its here. DNA has a shelf life and no records are kept. This way the law has a window of opportunity to catch the villain, after which DNA evidence is worthless. Physical evidence? Well that hangs around. If a butterfly knife leaves a trace, and that butterfly is found, you get a match. Whether the law can put a face to the crime is all up to RP and investigation. Of course we always have the illegal molecular 'washroom' theory where a villain contaminates a crime scene with a powerful aerosol which actively destroys DNA evidence, and substantially damaging a corpse if its still there.

This is all very rough of course, just the seed of an idea. Plenty of background on this subject if anyone wants to chat.

I'm sorry if this post is a little long. I was just trying to think of code that enhances RP, maybe even giving life to a new career, maybe a handful of careers. Crime seems to be fast and dirty, and that suits the theme and the game, but I'd love to see WFJ crime scene tape up or barricades, those big coats with 'EVIDENCE UNIT' on the back walking about glaring at the mix passing by. They would certainly be busy with the amount of bodies floating around. A villain getting the hand on the shoulder 6 weeks after a mugging gone wrong down on Ashlin, would make great RP, and lots of lead RP right up to the moment.

I really can't see that the judges would care too much about catching the right people, especially if it were on red. They'd just rely on TERRA to do the investigating, if any is done at all. And they wouldn't really be wanting to waste good resources like a forensics lab and a medical examiner on another chummer's body to add to the incinerator.

If the crime or the victim were found on above red I could see them trying to do something like this.

Corpses do log all sorts of information about the murder.

We just haven't created the tools needed to read the information they store.

Soon.

The judges got  fine support this week, I've gotta work on code for other groups for a while. Round-robin and all that jazz.

Bodies for the burner is one thing, but the greater the number of unsolved murders on Red, the less likely WFJ will keep any type of control, and that will eventually push uphill to Gold, no matter what. Absolute disregard for Red by WFJ would lead to a type of anarchy the Gov would not like in the long run I think.
I've been meaning to complain abouit the lack of forensic information in-game...im just too lazy to post it right when i think of it heh..  but i digress.  Personally i would like to see a way you could search for clues and be able to acertain certain things....perception based and what not.  Say Murphy is down here looking at a body and he's trying to figure out what happened with his perception being shrewd he can see that the guy died from a gunshot to the chest.  Now i arrive with my perception being wary id be able to acertain there are signs of a struggle,  irratation around the neck from being grappled,  and maybe with higer levels of pistol and intelligence be able to tell what caliber shot hit him(ball park)  but things that are given  say Gerik kills someone and drags them into the sewer..wouldnt i see a stream of blood on the street from where the guy was killed?  everyone would be able to see something so aparent.  I'm with Preacher when he says we caint got a clue what happens cause there is no way for us to acertain any information from a crime scene unless theres an admin involved.  I know that coding blood splatters. would mean tying combat to the changing of room discriptions.  Maybe using the way graffiti is done and somehow tying it to combat  *shrugs* i dont know just my take on it.
Actually, perception is one thing, but knowing your gunshot wounds is another. I think the reqs for a forensics guy/coroner should be the same as RL: Medical, Munitions, a decent amount of Int and a player with an eye for detail. Maybe if someone knows his firearms he could take a guess as to whether the weapon was high caliber (.50 Action Express, .357, .45, and 11-13 mil?) or low (.223 to 9-10 mil?) or something.

As for DNA, hey, with cloning and whatnot, and clone disease, who says your DNA is exactly the same after dying? It's close, sure, but close isn't really good enough when dealing with a life or death situation - so you have your built-in DNA expiration system there, no? Just make the DNA a hidden number, like SIC IDs, and have it change a few digits every time you die? I dunno.

A forensics unit would be neat-o. Heh, and they'd need a van, gloves and ziploc bags!


As it stands now, I do my invastigatin' the old fashioned way, and it can be fun, but a crime scene investigation unit would add a lot, methinks.

(Edited by Murphy at 2:24 am on Mar. 24, 2002)

Yes, Rastus has all the forensic data stored on the corpse and -was- working on the facilities to read them.
umh, nixxi... don't get me wrong, i find you really likeable, i'm just wondering... what kind of message do you intend to convey by using that misspelled nazi greeting?

[update, a few hours later]
oh, now it's gone... too bad, i would have liked to know what that was about.

(Edited by shin at 7:11 am on Mar. 29, 2002)

Quote: from Johnny on 3:04 pm on Mar. 23, 2002[br]Corpses do log all sorts of information about the murder.

We just haven't created the tools needed to read the information they store.

Soon.

Skill dependant Forensic Kits have entered the game. Improvements to it will follow the timeline of development.

So ... in 4 years? hehe.

It's been four years! Yay!
Woo, thread necro... fwiw I'm pretty sure I had nothing to do with storing forensic data on corpses or any work to utilise it. Only thing I did on corpses was the decayable object code and the messages... I'm only 7 years late correcting that. :D

And I bet no-one appreciates the amount of research I did into human corpse decay to get the timing and descriptions right... people get strange ideas when you have pages of notes about dead bodies and a folder of bookmarked images.

Hah, I can only imagine.  Theres actually a good amount of data you can pull from corpses.  I expanded on some of the forensic stuff a year or so ago.  You can tell if a body has been moved after death now.

We have puddles of water from rain, maybe we need pools of blood from corpses?Scarlyt

I would absolutely love it if shell casings (when appropriate) and blood splatter would happen in rooms, with weather and ambpop quickly destroying such evidence, and maybe either a verb to get rid of that stuff or a passive stealth bonus to not having it found. Forensics guys could get like an inspect here verb or something to try to look for it.
It's been needing a lot of love for a long time and I have a million and one ideas for when we have enough coder down time to dedicate to it.
Great to hear! I really look forward to the additions to Forensics when it is possible for the staff to implement extra stuff!!

Whoohoo! <3

Thanks

Carrying over a comment from the town-hall, I've always been bummed that forensics doesn't tell the user inherent things about people just by looking at them. I'd love if forensics was the skills that gave someone a hint to anothers drugs use, if they're a smoker, smell like booze. Perception is constant factor in SD and I think forensics could command a lot of power if it just picked up on the day to day stuff in a big way.

"A Sherlock Holmes type thing." that could give you real social influence over people by recognizing there habits. Ultimately, this should play off with synergies with cybernetic ears/eyes etc as well.

Additonally from the Town Hall:

Fix some of the messaging on corpse inspection(falling damage onto concrete counting as "fist" damage).

Add the ability to tell which wounds were bad bleeders or more severe, vice which ones were grazes or more minimal damage.

Based on my forensics (and maybe medical) I'd love to be able to guess at what kinds of injuries people are hiding under their clothes.

I might also be able to tell if someone is strapped. And maybe disguise or some other skill could counter all this.

Being able to notice people using @holdback, maybe?
Reviving this topic. I'd like folks to weigh in on what they believe we should do to enhance the forensics skill.
I'd love to be able to tell the weapon (or gun type and caliber) used on living victims using forensics. For instance, let's say I run into Joe Solo at a bar and he's got bruising on his face. What caused it? Krav maga? Taijutsu? An aluminum bat? The nanoinjection he just got? It would be really flash to be able to take this information in at a glance and it would help with doctor RP and broaden the skill.
Be able to track someone who's bleeding through the streets. People get splattered in blood, but then don't leave a trail of it somehow, Forensics could ID the right trail and allow someone to follow it.

Obviously at some point they'd stop bleeding and not leave a trail anymore.

Just wanted to revive this forum post.

Personally I am a bit biased when it comes to improving forensics, and all the potential it has. I don't think many people in the game currently use it. So I feel it would take lower priority over other ideas that are in the works.

However, here are some rough ideas of mine, and others from the post:

Pools of water code being used for pools of blood - Slither, good one! Then being able to use kit on the blood as well to determine data. Furthermore, what if there was fluids left from the murderer, that could be used to identify them if they did not clean up appropriately. See below.

I like what Vera said about the room data, that a forensic person could use a search command to look for room evidence. And the counter part, that could be used by the suspect could do things to clean up and try to hide the fact a murder took place. Could make for some interesting RP, and would be like RL when people commit such crimes, and they try to cover it up. Update the search command for forensics to allow for room forensics, i.e. hair, blood, gun casings, signs of a recent struggle, and other similar things that are use in real life. On the same token, ways to clean up blood, fluids, and hair, to eliminate the link to the murderer. Something like the solvent aerosol can code could be used to for a way to clean up a crime scene, based on perception, intellegience, that comes from being a skilled killer for a while. Someone new to killing might not know what the fuck to do, and panic, leaving a lot of evidence. This could also add to the WCS job duties, when there is a massacre in the Ashlin Crown mall per say, and forensics and Law Enforcement has done their part, WCS could come in and clean the scene, because there would be blood, guts, and all sort of matter all over the place that I don't believe are currently coded.

Tracking/search, like Barrien said, able to ID the trail of blood from someone who was shot or sliced, which could also tie in with Slithers idea of blood pools. What if there were two types of blood at a crime scene, one from the victim, and the other from the suspect from combat, who forgot to clean it up because someone was coming, or the baka just didn't think about it. If there was a DNA bank that could be used to match against known criminals, it would make killing a more flavorful and RP event.

There is just so much potential here with forensics in Withmore, where crime and murder happens constantly and there are dead bodies and crime scenes all of the play, mainly in Red. Investigations could be much more in depth, and the after killing RP could be much more flavorful with the thought that, OMG there is a forensic guy at the crime scene, did I get all the blood cleaned up? Did I leave any hair or fluids on the scene too? FUCK!. Hehehehe.

Thanks!

Blood pools would be great.
Dear Admins.

I am curious if there has been any further discussion on possibly expanding forensics in game.

With the recent corpse updates and decomposition removing @nakeds and tattoos over time, I'd like to see Forensics be able to 'recompile' them. Maybe a random roll, giving you a smattering of nakeds/tattoos dependent on roll to attempt to discern their ID?
Also, wildlife like park dogs and sewer rats eating @nakeds off corpses.
+1 to both of those ideas, HolyChrome. Love it.
Let chemists mix up acid that can quietly accelerate decomposition, and let bodies burn (to a charred state, not totally gone) in big fires.
So, how about a few things...

Genetek Recompiler: Based off a HolyChrome's idea. Just a installable unit by a Electro_Tech which would project a hologram readout of a person's @nakeds with no @name. Require forensics skill to use properly. Naturally, photographs could be taken of said hologram but it would be obvious from the shortdesc. i.e. a holographic short mano

Genetek Decompiling Agent: Available in a one-use syringe or a cybernetic module. The agent when deployed on a corpse effectively reduced the organic tissue to a soft unrecognizable goop in a matter of minutes. Any attempts to analyze genetic samples are ineffective.

Please note neither of these would have any impact on a SIC chip - which remains the decker avenue of forensics.

I think instead of rotting just throwing periods or asterisks in @nakeds, since that doesn't really... make sense, I think gradually adding things to @nakeds would would better. For example, if JoeBaka's groin @naked was "'help chastity'", it could go a little like this:

Early decomposition: 'help chastity' Joebaka's groin has began to decay, his joints in that area seeming rather stiff.

A few stages later (im not gonna write out the whole thing): 'help chastity' JoeBaka's groin has severely decomposed. A foul odor rises from this area, and you can see more than a few maggots.

End of decomposition: JoeBaka's groin has completely skeletonized, aside from a few grey, stringy chunks of meat.

Oh. Minor detail I forgot on the recompiler. It would require a blood sample from said corpse with existing syringe and vial code.
I do like the idea of progressing decomp faster, but maybe make it a bit more CP and add some layers to it?

Chemistry check with a single use item that requires a bathroom of some sort nearby?

It'd require the Chemistry skill, gate it behind chy, and require people to move the body without being seen.

As for the recompiler, I'n torn on your idea, Reefer. The Forensics kit is pricey and has long been neglected, in my humble opinion. But on the flip side, requiring a medical skill to get the blood sample and an electrotech skill to make the image would spread the love around.

Thoughts?

I support whatever adds a "clean-up team" element to organized murder that isn't simply "lift corpse" flee.
I think the recompiler idea could/should just be added to the forensic kit's abilities, based on the user's forensic skill. I do like the idea of being able to quickly degrade a corpse though. Makes sense, in a CP world. And, I do agree that it should require some sort of Chemistry training. Maybe, the better the skill, the better the decomp or the less 'times' it takes to achieve the decomp. It could be something like Reefer said, administered through a syringe or something that's poured on the body but has risks of side effects to those that are in the same room if they don't have the proper skill. I.E. chemical burns, unconscious from the fumes...et cetera.
@Grizzly

"We've got our work cut out for us this time, boys."

I'd like forensics to be able to determine if someone has/had cyberware in them. That way it's an important step in deciding if someone should be brought to the ripper.
It sounds like all the forensics stuff atm needs a kit. Any plans for giving broke amateurs a few tidbits?
@Vera

I literally visualized a magnifying lens and a deerstalker cap when you said that, haha!

Glad to see forensics getting some love!

Hmm. There are definitely things, like 'has this body been moved' that someone would theoretically be able to determine without a kit. That's a good call out. I think as we add more things, making the kit more useful, we can open some stuff up to be done without a kit.
Something that I saw requested was 'being able to take a blood sample from a corpse'. I went to implement this and saw that it has been possible to do this since 2014. The blood sample works the same way it would when being drawn from a normal person. This isn't forensics per say, but I did want to flag it since it seems there was not visibility into this being possible.
Since you mentioned taking corpses for a trip to the ripper doc, does that mean people can't just "get studd" corpses anymore? I hope so.
No, that is not currently implemented. Requiring cyberware be ripped from corpses is on my list.
Perhaps consider having the act of removing chrome grossly disfigure the corpse naked associated with it depending on skill?

That's a good (and hilariously gross) idea! Not likely a cybereye, socket and processor are coming out with the face staying intact short of a very deft hand.

This is definitely part of what I am looking to do. It's why I added the disfigurations. That was a step along the line of making ripping cyberware a thing. When you rip it out, it's going to disfigure whatever parts of the body the cyber effected most likely.
Bumpity bump bump. We've been discussing smells lately and I've love to see picking up scents/accents/etc be associated with the forensic skill plus appropriate stat if it isn't already.
In general moving forensics a bit away from the medical & corpses niche and more into the "reconstruction of events through evidence" direction would be neat. That could include ballistics as well, from gunpowder residue on hands/clothes to matching bullets, even specific blades to wounds and checking out whose hands (in a biometric/genetic sense) an item you have your hands on passed through.
There's a tremendous amount of assumptions and deductions made on the regular with Sindome purely based on happenstance. I'd like forensics to over tool-less conclusions available to a player at a glance or rather look. Imagine being able to quickly deduce someone had a holstered firearm beneath there jacket or that they're a th-2c smoker...or that they're high on v-202 at this very moment.

I imagine it working like emblazoned text visible beneath the appropriate @naked or something garnered just by watching someone in a room. Slow, subtle but valuable.

I agree with the above also because there's currently this weird situation with stealth skills when it comes to detecting things as well.

Perception is a stat that's hard to improve already due to no Nano directly boosting it, and having a Forensics skill that benefits someones analytical and observant nature and plays more into a law enforcement/detective/security skillset than a purely medical (coroner-esque) one would be tremendous for those investing in it and ultimately increase the necessary steps for subterfuge, increasing scheming RP.

This has gotten off the original topic. The recent things people have mentioned are cool-- and I think deserve their own posts. Let's break that discussion out there. I really do like the ideas.