I think it would be pretty IC to make grapple based on Agility and Dodge. I mean.. if you can avoid being hit by someone, you should be able to avoid being grappled by them.
What the hell do you think grapple is based on? Charisma?
Quote: from Iga on 12:20 pm on July 9, 2004[br]
What the hell do you think grapple is based on? Charisma?
Could you REALLY bring yourself to restrain someone if they were being really really cute? HUH? Could you?
Ok, but on a similar note: Are we to assume that our charcters once they are approximately a year or so old, and we've invested all this ue, are borderline supernatural, moving amazingly fast, able to doge my punch even though your strapped to a wall?
What I think we need is an equivilacy chart. Like something that says if my strength is at helthy than I can expect to be able to lift so many pounds, and if my agility is <whatever> than I can expect to do a double backflip off of a 2 story building and land on my feet with my sword out and implanted in someone's head.
I've recently been a little sketchy on stats, and everyone's always saying fuck stats, than in the same breath- I can be like Jet-Li in the movie "the one" just because I've had the charcter for a few years.
That goes for emoting too. Can I emote slamming a charcter on the ground (since it's not really coded) when in -Coded Reality ™- I couldn't lay a hand on them? It happens, and people don't seem to care.
Admin please clear this up for me.
note: this post rose from a IC situation, but not exclusively, I've seen it in MANY other circumstances. I just want to re-iterate that I'm not accusing anyone of wrong-doing, or point fingers, just asking a question.
This is a game, a game about technology and human advancement. Yes, you may get to the point where you can dodge bullets and slam people into walls leaving craters.
The most you'll ever get towards a 'chart' is the ordered list of words for each stat/skill/whatever. Your character isn't going to know he can do X, he's going to believe he can, and so should you.
As far as emoting things, the general rule is this:
If your emote doesn't give someone the chance to counter an offensive or defensive action, you've robbed them of their chance to react in an emote. Does that mean it's always the wrong thing to do? No. If you've just got done beating the crap out of the guy, I don't see a problem with it, they should be playing incapacitated anyway.
Once we have single attacks, slamming people into the ground could be quite possible. Right now, our combat system is limited to starting an on going fight, but we're working on supporting a single shot from a gun, a single whack from your bo, a single slash with your katana and a single hand-to-hand move amoung other single attacks. I can't give more details on it because its still in development, but we're working on it.
The most you'll ever get towards a 'chart' is the ordered list of words for each stat/skill/whatever. Your character isn't going to know he can do X, he's going to believe he can, and so should you.
I can understand that, but take for instance the situation of someone who exercises regularly. If done approprately they know their limits well.
Plus I can't speak for the rest of the players, but I don't know where the top 1/3 of the stats starts, but I'm pretty sure I can count on one hand the number of people that have more than one stat there. probibaly two hands for one stat there. I think adding some type of refrence for at least strength, endurance, intelligence (as a IQ range maybe), perception. These are all physically measurable stats. Agility charisma and luck are all more subjective, and would be slightly more grey, but I've seen similar things in MANY, MANY games, and espically in one so RP oriented you should have a very firm grasp on what your charcter can do. It's not about stat whoreing (though I digerss it could lead there for less RP oriented charcters) but to me it's about having a more intimate knowledge of my charcter.
I dunno, in a perfect world where everyone RP'ed like they should, and everyone's viewpoint was the same it wouldn't be a problem but, there's my opinion for what it's worth.
It is simple.
Stop. Worring. About it.
You get in a situation where you are slamming someone against a wall and pinning them there. You don't know if you can do it, -ask- ooc. But don't ask 'hey, is fleet above brawny? or 'how strong are you'. Ask like this:
It cool if I pose pinning you on the wall for effect?
Frankly, even the fastest, meanest, toughest mother fucker out there can get pinned to the wall by a tweeked out freak of a newbie at some point.
How you scream? How could a Newbie -ever- hope to pin a Brixton to the wall? HOW!?
A-dren-a-lyn.
Say it with me.
Adrenalyn.
It makes moms lift SUV's to save kids. It makes nerds able to shatter cinderblocks with a punch. It makes fat kids able to run the 100m dash at olympic speeds.
When the human body kicks into overdrive, and you are ridding an adrenal burn…well, it isn't beyond the RP possibility to pin a Brixton or a Lucifer down. For a few moments. Until they twig to you...and then splatters your face across the bar...but it could happen.
Now, is there a coded system to represent adrenal rush? To represent those way off crazy things that happen when one really desperate person freaks out?
Hell no.
Will there ever be?
Doubt it. It's been discussed, batted about, but ultimately discarded for a future date. We just can't code everything...yet...
So, my suggestion is this: If your strength says 'brawny' and your agility says 'quick', chances are you'll stand a chance of pinning down someone even if they are a bit tougher.
We may concider posting the stat 'terms' in order from weakest to strongest. We will -never- post an actual numbers system. I even hate the fact that players know how much UE it takes to boost a stat. That in itself is a numeric device that I -KNOW- is used oocly and over AIM to see if you are or are not able to take out another player.
Don't deny it. I know. I was a player for a -LONG- time.
emote spin kicks you in the face, and then laughs as you fall to the ground gasping in pain.
That pisses me off.
What the pose should be is:
Nicad snaps a spinning kick at Lucifer, the tip of his foot knifing across Lucifers' jaw.
To which Lucifer can pose:
The kick sends Lucifer reeling back, a spray of blood flying into the air, mingling with the acidic drops of rain.
or
The kick snaps Lucifers head to one side, and he turns and looks at Nicad coldly, iron glare burning in Nicad's direction. "Big fucking mistake Nic…"
I use Nic and Luc as examples for a reason. They did stuff of this nature before, and had a decent flow to it. There was a deep understanding of the characters, and how they worked. They were like a team, and if Luc were to pose tough, Nic would flow with it. If Luc were to pose hurt, they would flow with it. But then Lucifer and Nicadeamus had been playing together for years, so they knew how it worked.
For newer people, or people you are not sure with, -DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK OOCLY-. Ask, find out if the other player you are working with is savvy and cool with these sorts of things. If it gets out of hand, or becomes utterly unthemely in actions, just say so. Just tell em to tone it down to a themely level.
And -NEVER EVER EVER EVER- pose how another player reacts. EVER! That is a crime. In fact, if you find that a particular player is doing this, do let the admin know, we will apply electroshock treatments and correct the situation.
*giggles and skips off*
thats what i think about … well... pretty much everything yeah...
but keep in mind i dont know shit about fuck.
(Edited by Tool at 5:14 pm on July 9, 2004)
You can not frisk someone you are grappling. (If you can, it is a bug, let us know).
There is, as far as I know, no way a single person can cuff someone they are currently holding in a grapple. A third party can, yes. But not the grappler. If this is not the case, again, let us know.
It is something we can look at tweeking if it looks like it is too difficult to get out of a grapple. Do email me some specific incidents where you are noticing a bad balance, and I will go over it and see what is what. Maybe get kev or jman to tweek a number up or down.
EDIT: Or how about this: If your good in martial arts (or wrestling more approprately) or even if your not to a lesser degree, you can grapple, then lock, or subdue, or whatever which would render you able to cuff by yourself, and in turn frisk or whatever. It's totally possible, haven't you guys ever watched cops?
(Edited by Jotun at 5:45 pm on July 9, 2004)
*imagines the whole of Sinners on top of a poor corpie that missed his stop*
Pinning would be nice!!!
Or….
You could RP it. If you beat someone unconcious, and grapple them, emote holding them down and pressing a knee into their back when they come to. Assuming you've got them grappled, and they can't 'resist', I see no problem with this kind of emote. Note I didn't say you should emote their response to this... they're free to try and resist and break free.
The code's there to support the RP. All grapples arn't 'headlocks'. They're coded support for your ability to preform physcial restraint of a person, based upon your stats. RP the rest. I'm not saying all grapples are pindowns... I'm saying if the RP supports it, emote it. If you emote trying to wrestle them to the ground and they emote resisting and keeping upright, you need to respect that RP. Conversely if someone knocked you unconcious, and you woke up with them pinning you down, you need to respect that RP. The code merely supports the RP. If the code says they can resist and break free of your restraint, again: Respect that RP.
-Kevlar
Unfortuantely there's plenty of things that were coded before the action system, so anything you find your able to do while grappling someone that involves the dextrous use of your hands, please @bug it.
Having said that, there's plenty of things you should be able to do while grappling. Like calling an elevator (perhaps with your foot?). So the rules arn't black and white. Use your head, and be open to suggestion.
-Kevlar
jesus, have you people not seen a single bar fight?
Here is how it works.
Jagoff-A: I kissed your sister, with tongue!
Goon-B: You're dead!
Goon-B charges at Jagoff-A, intent on beating the living snot out of him.
Bouncer-C notices this, jumps in and grabs Goon-B by the arms, tossing him into a full nelson.
You see? restarining! Arms not free! You can also bear hug.
Now, if you are skilled in the martial arts there are a bevy of 'grapples' that will lock up your opponent. I know this really cool one where you twist the arm in this one way and then the opponent is all on there tip toes and shit and they let out this really neat squeeky screamy grunt sound…it is only on one arm mind, but hell, when they twitch that free arm you just torque the pressure in there and they forget all about that free hand and concentrate on the grinding bones in there forearm.
For ease of use, we lumped em all into one command. It has one message. We moved on to code other things like cars or Funcams. I am sure some day the coders will come back to grapple and expand it based on skill sets and skill levels, adding new messages and all sorts of shit.
But for now, feel free to be creative around the concept of 'grapple' and add in additional poses that make things look snazzy and super-fly!
combat is such a subjective thing. That's the main reason I think code like locking/pinning is needed. I can play the emoting game all day long, but regardless of who you are, and what your stats are, your going to try your ass off IC'ly/and OOC'ly to preserve your charcter from harm, and when emoting any battle commands…. I don't know exactily how to explain what I'm trying to say so I'm gonna stop here, but it leaves too much room for twinky things, wether intentional or not.
I've had people close and lock doors I was guarding before. I've had people manipulate things in wayas they shouldn't while grappling or being grappled.
Yes it's lame.
I've always thought it rather sad that admin time has to go into tweaking code to make it so that people can't abuse it.
I mean for fucks sake, it's a game, if you're going to cheat to get further in it, then fuck off and play on your PS2 where you can enter spangly cheat codes and feel good about yourself.
This isn't just a game, it's meant to be, to some degree a community. You don't have to like each other, but you do have to respect the Moo, and it's community. If you exploit bugs, if you abuse code loopholes, if you want to 'win' then, you're a cancer and I hate you.
Oh yeah, and, those of you who don't, who report bugs, don't cheat and all the other things like that, you're all very lovely, and I don't hate you as much.
hooray.
I'm sure I had a point when I started writing this.
Oh well.
I think we figured out that about 42.74% +/- 12% of administrative time and energy, a unit we term 'cycles', gets used up, wasted, and bled off dealing with Twinks, Flakes, Cheaters, and fixing loop holes. It is the nature of the beast.
I do not think people take into account the psychological drain a twink has on admin energy...just bogs everything right down as we try to wrap our brains around -why- some player would log on, stab the first 10 things they see, then yell at us for being dorks when we cell them or kill them...and you know, I think it happens about 5-10 times a week.
Those really don't bother me too much any more.
Well, I have to get to work here at work. Be sure to stop doing stupid things if you are a player. It will save us thousands of cycles in the long run! You're compliance and cooperation are very important. Buy something, be well...
I think agility should be the major factor in getting someone in a grapple.
My solution is this. In the interest of realism, why not tie in the 'watch/watching' commands. If you are watching someone (Or attacking them), then grapple uses your agility verse there agility, to decide if there fast enough to get you into a grapple.
If you not watching them/there hiding/they just walked into the room, it just lets them grapple you.
Then once there grappled it continues to use strength. The reason I bring this up, is because all a character that has more strength then another has to do, is lock them in a grapple, and combat is basicly over. Everytime they break free, if they do, the person takes a hit in combat -maybe- and then locks them in a grapple again. I'm not saying this is un-ic or anything, it makes sense. But it's not realistic, or balanced, in my opinion. Why does a character -have- to be stronger to win in one on one combat? You could be big as Arnold Swazenager, and Jet li is still going to whup on your ass.
Whats neglected is the versatility a skilled unarmed or melee combatant can display while being grappled. How to employ that kind of versatility in code is frankly beyond me but I think any ideas on the topic would be cool. :)
(ugh. english is not my friend.)
(Edited by Bias at 10:34 pm on Oct. 17, 2004)
-Or- grapple someone and cuff them immeditly. Like.. thats just way to powerful in my opinion. I -have- done it, and its benifited me alot, but I don't agree with it. Its hard enough to take on two people, let alone two people trying to grapple/cuff you.
(Edited by Nemisis at 12:34 am on Oct. 18, 2004)
Think of stuff. �Form plots. �If you think of something really cool that isn't yet possible codewise (but would make sense realistically), then email a GM about it. �They'll (hopefully) give you a response sometime soon.
Though they haven't replied to me yet. �:(
*shakes fist*
EDIT:
fist-waving = joke
(Edited by Aikao at 5:10 pm on Oct. 18, 2004)
Quote Nemisis " Tying it into watch, and basing it on someones hand to hand + agil vs dodge + agil, is def one of them."
Hey… Isn't there a limit to how many people you can watch at one time? Maybe something like, if you intently watch/focus on/aim your perception at one person then you're ability to evade their grapples increases to an advantage and the more people you watch and/or the more your "senses" are fogged (drugs/alcohol/exhaustion (when implemented)) then your ability to dodge surprise grapples decreases?
It's snowing. Yey.
They'll (hopefully) give you a response sometime soon.Though they haven't replied to me yet.
The GM's, despite all rumors, signs, clues, hints, suggestions, evidence, suspicions, tips, indications, advisements, memos, statements, reports, apprehensions, considerations, allowments, notions, musings, interpretations, expositions, explainations, fantisies, speculations, reasonings, affirmations, confirmations, expoundings, substantiations, testamonials, cues, details, deliberations, inklings, disclousures, manifestations, realizations, revelations, and most importantly proof to the contrary, are (deceptively) human.
If a communication does not recieve a timely reply, please do us all a favor and remind them privately of the nature of your unanwsered communication so that that they may become aware of the disconnect and remedy the situtation.
While I won't argue the potentially cathardic nature of fist waving, I will comment that it's unlikely to resolve the issue as well as a simple email would.
-Kevlar
P.S. It's a joke, people. Laugh!
*ahem*
Sorry if I seriously sounded like I was "fist-waving." �I basically meant the same thing you stated (they're only human, etc.). �Annnywho.. �hrm. �*goes off exploring and fucking around with more newish stuff in-game*
EDIT:
Oh yes! �*grapples Biohazard and drags him into the sewers*
EDIT 2: I'm retarded.
(Edited by Aikao at 5:11 pm on Oct. 18, 2004)
Quote: from Kevlar on 1:17 pm on Oct. 18, 2004
The GM's, despite all rumors, signs, clues, hints, suggestions, evidence, suspicions, tips, indications, advisements, memos, statements, reports, apprehensions, considerations, allowments, notions, musings, interpretations, expositions, explainations, fantisies, speculations, reasonings, affirmations, confirmations, expoundings, substantiations, testamonials, cues, details, deliberations, inklings, disclousures, manifestations, realizations, revelations, and most importantly proof to the contrary, are (deceptively) human.
Negative I Am A Meat Popsicle
"Hey there little boy.. You wanna popsicle?"
Or something to that extent.
I have no problem with grapple right now. Espically with other things taken into consideration. Is it perfect? no, are Katanas overpowered and need fixing first? I think so, but that's just me. Would I rather see cyberware come out sooner than see you spend more time fucking with grapple? Yeah….
There's a fucking lot. �Alot to sort through and recode anyway. �Its not that katanas are 'broken' or 'bugged', its the fact that alot of other weapons are still lacking in weapons messages and modifiers or.. �whatever those coders do to'em.
(Edited by Aikao at 3:46 pm on Oct. 19, 2004)
