Reset Password
Existing players used to logging in with their character name and moo password must signup for a website account.
- zeezenfrozen 57s stay goofin', gaffin', always laffin'
- Sabess 6s
- hex37 2m
- PinkFox 4m
- Gunnar 3m
- Grig 23s
- NoShame 24s
- BigLammo 15s
- Muelas 5h
- Ryuzaki4Days 4m Take drugs. Kill a bear.
- deskoft 3m
- ReeferMadness 1m May the bridges I burn light the way.
And 23 more hiding and/or disguised
Connect to Sindome @ moo.sindome.org:5555 or just Play Now

Growth opportunities for Veterans

Caveat to all of this: I am a VERY new player who has not had the opportunity to experience very many aspects of the game. Therefore all of my recommendations should be taken with a grain of salt. Also it's a very long post, so many people might feel less inclined to check it out for that. That is fair and I don't blame you.

There are several parallel aspects of the game that have shaped the recommendations I'm about to present. I'll first present the aspects relevant to what I'd like to present, and then get into the actual recommendation I want to make.

Alternatively, if you want you can skip past everything for a tl'dr when you get to the "Method," section.

Consideration 1: Power disparity between new players and veteran players is intentionally absolutely ridiculous. Characters who have been around for 2.5+ years are at their maximum capacity for growth, and have had potentially even more time to shape their reputation, gather power, and ingrain themselves into the story of the game. Part of why new Player Characters suck so bad is so it feels amazing when years down the line your plans hash out and actually become a badass. It's part of the design of the game.

Consideration 2: There seem to be a really good deal of Players who have had the same Player Characters for waaaaaaayyy more than 2.5 years. I'm talking like since this whole thing started in 1999 or whatever. People who have had the same character for 4-8 years or more, or even people who have had multiple characters who have each went on for 2+ years or more before they were terminated by their players. Also, generally it's these players who have stuck around with the game over all these years who are most likely to donate and support the development of this project.

Consideration 3: You can only have one character at a time. Yes, this helps ensure that the RP and story experience is not compromised by players who meta as multiple characters at the same time and break lots of rules that way. But this also means that those veterans who have stuck with their same character for 5+ years are not able to try something new on SINDOME without giving up a character they have put lots of time and emotional investment into. This is an unfortunate necessity of the game.

Recommendation: Give Veteran players a little bit more room for mechanical growth. The purpose behind this is to encourage more story engagement from Veteran players who have already got all of their UE over 2.5 years. While there is plenty of room for growth via in-character means such as accumulating power, earning reputation, and getting into better socioeconomic spheres within the Dome, some additional mechanical (specifically UE) growth opportunities can act as an engaging consolation prize to those Veteran players who have a long-running character they don't want to give up just yet, but still kind of want to try something new.

The benefits to additional UE growth for Veteran players is the previously stated increased potential for story engagement, as well as increased potential for support from those Veteran players to help SINDOME continue to live and grow. The downsides to this are an even greater disparity between new and veteran players. But that's fine. It's already part of the game design, so like whatever, you know? The devs have done a pretty good amount of work towards retaining new players, so that's fine.

tl;dr

Method: Introduce a system where a player gets to choose 1-2 stats and 3-5 skills to be "Tagged," for their character's growth. A player character continues to gain a certain amount of UE after the 2.5 year mark, however they may only apply this UE to the character's "Tagged" stats and skills. The rate at which this "Veteran UE," is gained can be easily fine-tuned by the admins and game-devs, and can be capped at whatever value they want. Heck, it could be slowed down to something REALLY slow like 1UE every 3 days or whatever. But the point is it's a value that can be easily adjusted as the admins and game-devs see fit, to to accommodate the experience they want for the players.

Even if this kind of thing has been suggested TONS of times in the past, and there's ZERO chance of this kind of thing ever happening, I'd really love to hear everyone's thoughts on this proposal.

The problem with this idea is that combat characters will tag the most important 2 stats for combat and dump UE into them until the UE cap becomes ridiculous.

The UE cap is there not only for balance but to encourage oldbies to eventually retire their characters and start over and develop new storylines and new routes.

If you hit the UE cap and you are bored of your character because you can no longer gain UE, you should consider retiring your character and using 6% of your max UE to make something cool with a new one.

As much as I don't like the UE cap as a person who has had a max UE character or two, I don't feel like it's holding me back in roleplay. It's just that I like my numbers to always be progressing, but that's not really a problem.

We don't need to encourage you to do more by giving you more points to be stronger, because as many people know, people like to idle and get their UE. Once you hit max you can just focus on going and doing those things instead of worrying about if you're at "optimal strength for a particular challenge"

I'm personally cool with the UE cap. Right now if a character is in the really high tiers of skill for whatever they're good at, it's because they buckled down and focused instead of picking up a bunch of side skills.

Almost every character's "build" is unique in Sindome. Even two max UE characters who use the same weapon might look completely different skill-wise and stat-wise. You could have the ultra-precise and skilled pistol fighter who never misses a shot, or his beefier friend who can handle himself pretty well with either a pistol or his bare hands, and maybe he even knows how to drive a damn car without a Skillsoft. These guys would eventually look the same under your proposed system, and that to me is a shame.

"The problem with this idea is that combat characters will tag the most important 2 stats for combat and dump UE into them until the UE cap becomes ridiculous."

I don't see the problem with tagging the their 2 most important combat stats. Generally this game wants specialized characters rather than generalists, right? As for the thing about the UE cap becoming ridiculous: I already talked about how this is a value that could be adjusted as needed. The cap could be anywhere from 10-50 more UE being put into Tagged stats and skills, and the rate of gain for this UE could be as slow as 1 UE every 3 days, or even 1 UE a week or slower.

"...retire their characters and start over and develop new storylines and new routes."

That's fine, but from my perspective as a new player, it's these old, veteran characters who I will often end up going to for additional opportunities to progress my own character, no? Encouraging veterans to retire is fine, but encouraging veterans to play long enough to take on an apprentice or whatever to potentially expand the player base sounds better.

"I don't feel like it's holding me back in roleplay."

I do believe people in general like their numbers increasing. I don't know how big of a problem that is for most of the players here, but it definitely seemed like something that would get me a little bit down, eventually. But who knows if I'll be around for 2.5 years. The game certainly seems fun though.

And yes, idling does seem to be a bit of an issue. Perhaps this UE that goes over the 2.5 year cap can only be assigned based on actual use of the skill/stat?

"These guys would eventually look the same under your proposed system, and that to me is a shame."

I really don't see how that is? There's already a UE limit, and there's already a wide diversity of characters and builds, from what you said. The pistol fighter can keep putting UE into pistols if he wants, or tag a different skill to round things out. Just like before with the regular UE cap. People were already doing different things when there already is a UE cap. Why wouldn't they continue to do different things with a bit of extra UE?

The beefier friend can tag pistols, martial arts, and driving if they want. Are you suggesting that people will feel compelled to optimize under a skill/stat "Tag" system? Because if there are a diversity of builds and characters in the current system, then there's probably a good mix of people optimizing and being less optimized. And if that's the case, I don't some extra UE is suddenly gonna make them want to optimize.

Honestly the biggest issue with my idea is something I hadn't thought about until now.

The coding and implementation of this entire thing would be waaaaaaayy too much trouble for the amount of benefit it would bring. I'm glad I'm getting others' opinions on this, but I'm realizing now the idea isn't worth it most likely. For now.

Before I make a new topic, have there been previous topics about combating idling via skill/stat usage requirements before being able to assign UE to it? Like, I have to do a certain amount of stuff with Systems before assigning UE to it, or do an amount of things with Melee before I can assign UE to it?

Currently an unoptimized character can lean into combat and get within spitting distance of a pure fighter who did. This would make the strongest people more invincibler and remove any sense of risk for them except from other pure combat oldbies.
I've been playing this game for a very long time and some of the older players would know just how long. If what you are suggesting was to be implemented, older players would simply become untouchable gods, as opposed to being capped and their true power being based on thier roleplay and relationships. How many people do you think it would take to bring down someone who has been playing the game for five years? What about ten years? Whilst the UE Cap is a pain for someone at maximum UE as it does halt progression, it keeps older players within reach of newer ones.
Awkward phrasing. An unoptimized character can get within spitting distance of an optimized one, I mean.
I have to agree with Gerik. Whilst I haven't been around quite as long, I HATED the UE cap at first. Because I had an oldbie. That pretty much says it all, and now that I don't I understand it 100%. Creative use of drugs and cyberware can be fun too. Jus sayin'
Before the cap those of us with oldbies probably did not *need* to hire anyone to do anything for us because our 200 billion ue had been invested into everything already.

Having needs are good.

I believe that the UE cap keeps things realistic, and as Gerik said, restricts veterans from being godlike beings. I think mechanical growth shouldn't matter - a veteran can still grow through plots and develop their character through roleplay.
Hahahahaha, remember when people had maxed their primary skills so much that they started just getting random stuff because they were bored?
I want to redirect people to my first post, specifically the "Method" part.

"A player character continues to gain a certain amount of UE after the 2.5 year mark, however they may only apply this UE to the character's "Tagged" stats and skills. The rate at which this "Veteran UE," is gained can be easily fine-tuned by the admins and game-devs, and can be capped at whatever value they want."

I don't mind when people disagree with my ideas, because I think that's the best way for there to be growth for all people: Discussion and constructive criticism. I already think I overlooked some serious problems with my first proposal.

But when I see comments like this: "The problem with this idea is that combat characters will tag the most important 2 stats for combat and dump UE into them until the UE cap becomes ridiculous."

". This would make the strongest people more invincibler and remove any sense of risk for them except from other pure combat oldbies."

"If what you are suggesting was to be implemented, older players would simply become untouchable gods"

It makes me think that people didn't read the part in my post where I said "continue to gain a certain amount of UE after the 2.5 year mark," and that it can all be fine-tuned by game-devs.

Like... Would the UE cap really be "ridiculous" if the Admins set the value of extra UE veterans can gain at like 10-30 UE? This is what I mean by fine-tuning.

Would the strongest people be more invincibler when they're getting even 30-60 UE past the Original cap, and this 30-60 is gained over the course of 2 years or whatever? This is what I mean by fine-tuning.

Would players characters really be "Untouchable gods" if there was like 20 more UE they could gain over the next 3 years? This is what I mean by fine-tuning.

Like, am I writing too much stuff? Is it making people skim through what I have to say and not catch these things? Should I get better at just writing much less?

30-60Ue wouldn't really do anything for someone that's best skill takes 32ue a raise.

It can make a slight difference in lesser things. I just think that it's such a low suggested number that it wouldn't make a difference one way or another.

Very good point. Which is why people started spending UE on stuff they never normally would. I would like to take this opportunity to say that I hope every character in the entire game is subject to that, no matter who controls it.
That's a very good point Grizzly. I didn't even realize that raises required THAT much UE eventually.

What are some values you think would make a difference without it being absolutely ridiculous?

Would 320 UE over 3 years make a difference?

New players get like 1,095 UE every year normally, right?

You're essentially arguing for an increase in the UE Cap. Why would that get changed by some new mechanism when the total UE Cap could just get changed if admin collectively felt it needed to be changed?

I don't see what your new proposed system would add to the game except for giving older players the ability to be stronger.

I couldn't say. I've been out of that loop for awhile.
I think proposing an idea like this without having a clear idea of how top end character sheets look or function is not going to be terribly productive.
"I think proposing an idea like this without having a clear idea of how top end character sheets look or function is not going to be terribly productive. "

Okay Vera, that's fair. My two replies to this are:

1: Where is the data on how top end character sheets look? Where is the data on how top end character sheets function? Where are the data tables that show the values of how much UE it requires for a single raise after X amount of investment? If all of this data is freely available, than it is clearly my fault for not finding this data first. If all of this data is ONLY available to top end characters... Then I guess the only people who get to have productive discussions about the matter are players who have been here for 2.5 years to map those values?

2: I think replying to posts without reading through key points of the post is not going to be terribly productive. Sure, you are under no obligation to read the entire, admittedly long post. But a reply like "This would make the strongest people more invincibler and remove any sense of risk for them except from other pure combat oldbies," completely ignores me pointing out that values can be adjusted and capped as necessary. Like... People aren't necessarily gonna become "more invincibler " depending on how values are handled. They can be adjusted and tweaked so no one gets "more invincibler ". So it's not terribly productive to make that point without acknowledging possibility for adjusted values

discussing game mechanics ooc in numerical detail is against the rules. you are meant to learn by playing. if you have not done so you're going to have a hard time contributing workable ideas there.
"discussing game mechanics ooc in numerical detail is against the rules."

What rule is that?

Is that related to this? "Discussing the in character world with other players via Out of Character communication methods (Skype, IM, Facebook, etc) is strictly against the rules,"

Is it 1.C. Circumventing the 'Sindome Laws of Physics' ?

Is it 1.E. Circumventing In Game Code ?

Where at https://www.sindome.org/rules/ is this rule of "discussing game mechanics ooc in numerical detail," made clear?

I'm all for following rules... But like, where is that rule? Is this "discussing game mechanics ooc in numerical detail," rule something I'm supposed to extrapolate based on other posts/pages on the website??

Yes, while it is not specifically stated in the rules ad verbum, it is probably an extrapolation of rule 1.F. Metagaming.

Rules lawyering is not going to be helpful, trust the advise of older players who have been in your shoes before.

IC/OOC rules. You don't discuss IC stuff OOCly. Stats and Skills are IC. This conversation should be considered closed. All that can be said has been said.

And yes, I can't believe you even have to bring it up. All PCs no matter who control them are subject to the same cap.

There are some "Boss" NPCs from the old days that have attained a legendary status from days of old that may have more UE, but thats because they're meant to be a challenge to large groups no matter what and they don't always use 'gear' so they need more UE to compensate. These types of NPCs get utilized VERY infrequently and for specific purposes or when poked out of hibernation by PCs.

OP, you're looking at this the wrong way. Your suggestion won't see the light of day either. If you're unhappy with your character 3 years later, and their stats, or where they stand in the grand scheme of things, that was something you decided to stick out and most likely put yourself in whatever situation you find yourself in. Sindome isn't about winning, it's about the story.

If you want a breather, consider a vacation in character. The alternative is going out with a bang. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I didn't read past the first few replies. My bad, Cerberus already ended the discussion. Ignore me.
The rules on mechanical transparency in this game are a product of 90-2000s mud design that continues to plague a number of games like it to this day. It promotes this culture that demands everything, even the most meta concepts, be learned IC through the most awkward and roundabout questions that could possibly be asked.

Which stat should you raise if you want to be a dead shot with a gun, perception or agility? Oh, either one could work based on in-game description? Sorry, we can't elaborate. Really, you shouldn't be worried about things like stats and code. -I- personally reject even the points handed out at character creation. Because -I'm- not a POWER GAMER LIKE YOU. Or, but we will demand you have the requisite stats and skills to fill a job or position. How much? Find out IC. While you're at it, figure out whether a 'winsome' character is as good at being a spokesperson as a 'charismatic' one, with no mechanical knowledge on the subject. You shouldn't be worried about actually making your character competent at the role you want to play, and you certainly shouldn't think it creates a competitive edge for veteran players the discourages new player retention.

Honestly, even D&D has figured out that theres different categories of information. Theres a DM guide, theres a bestiary, and theres a player's handbook. And guess what? That player's handbook is literally just a compilation of stats, mechanics and possible effects that entirely encompass the who why and how of anything related to your character. You can completely preserve the mystery of the world and the fun of your opposition without deliberately obscuring how your own character works. But hey, basic coherence might lead to MIN MAXING. And we certainly don't want to encourage hyper specialized characters, right?

So yeah, go find out IC. Isn't that satisfying, and not at all annoying?

You're welcome to not play Sindome.
Here's an alternative idea for veterans who miss that sweet sweet UE fix. After you max and go through UE withdrawals, you can hit a button and have your UE cut in half, you can use half of that UE however you like, then go back to slowly gaining it 3 a day and put it wherever you like for the other half. Re-invent your character and get a taste of the danger of being a non-maxed badass.

Obviously, UE gains are not the point of the game, but I think we can all agree that there is something satisfying about spending UE, so if you're a junky and you know, hit the button!

Uh.

While I do appreciate your suggestion JMo, and I think it's something that would help spark a potentially great conversation, I believe Cerberus said this topic is closed. So, like... We should stop posting in here.

But I have noticed there's often some really cool topics in the Ideas board, so I'm sure there will be plenty of other opportunities to have some good discussion.