Introduction to Sindome:

Alright.. was throwing some ideas around with Johnny about how the RPing skills of the entering newbie could be improved, and to help prevent them from dying within the first few seconds of entering the 'dome. READ: Don't "kill" anything.

Here's a random chunk of ideas from your's truly:

–--------
When a player first signs on as their character, immediately after char-gen. Have a script or something that "banishes" them to the newbie training camp. Or whatever it could be called. Have an NPC there. Or make it a script or something.. Have them recieve the actual death messages from the game.

But. when the red stops scrolling, have them appear in another OOC area.. or have another script run, that warns them about attacking just anything they see out of char-gen. Explain the dangerous nature of the cyberpunk world.

Make it interactive if you can. But purely OOC at first. Because some of these people might not have ever RP'd before.. But that still doesn't mean they don't have potential.

Through this, introduce them to the differences between IC and OOC. Sor most of us already here its simple enough for us to fathom, but like I said before.. keep in mind some of these people may never have RP'd before. They're -probably- used to hack-n-slash MUDs. Hence the staggering amounts of newbie deaths to gangers.

Hell. Sindome was -my- first experience with real roleplaying. And if anyone is still around that remembers me as a newbie, then they can also tell you how horrible I was at it. But enough of that.. Let's continue.

There could be an entire OOC-based starting point for newbies, using scripts or, one suggest Johnny came up with, "SHFL logic to dynamically create a game space for the guest." I'm not sure, but I'm guessing its similar to the Matrix coding and Badlands (even though I've never seen either.. just heard about them).

Anyway. Have OOC signs to read, notes plastered here and there in the room descriptions, making them -have- to read it in order to proceed and get to the next area. Perhaps throw in some character interaction with scripts or NPCs as well? Either or both could work. Or maybe some other shit. Hell, you could even have seperate areas for seperate skills (if the character has already been created), to give the player an idea of what their character is capable of before they start trying to do amazingly badass action-movie reinactments.

Maybe throw in some OOC fighting demonstrations using a weapon-type of their choosing (which they of course will not be able to take IC, as this will all be an OOC learning-experience). Hell, these might -not- be good ideas. But its a starting point. I'm interested to hear what other players have to say about it. Something has to be done, as SD's playerbase is beginning to dwindle. New users I believe are getting frustrated with the game before they even know how to play. There should be an interactive sort of.. "instruction manual" that -forces- them to have to read about everything before they can proceed. Maybe even simply have them recite answers from text to NPCs who will let them proceed? Explaining commands, rules, etc.

The @rules and @newbie and help files aren't doing the ticket.. so instead of "letting" them read the stuff.. Make them. And make it interesting so it'll stick with'em.

By Aikao at Jun 16, 2003, 8:08 PM | 0

Not a bad idea, but entering all this in the immigration process might be the best solution (with OOC messages mixed in), and maybe write up an Immigrant's Guide to Withmore City recapping the info given, through IC text and OOC footnotes. It could all include some IC info as well, like the location of hotspots (The Drome, Carnal), SHI, StreetTerm usage and the rest, maybe a small WJF primer telling them to avoid the gangs and a basic outline of the Law (if only so I don't get people telling me x person is selling dope. Gah. Hasn't happened in a while, but still.) Some info on the city in general, like a tourist guide - and, bear with me on this one - starting players out with more money (somewhere around 1500c….75 bucks) so they don't have to go to SHI right away and can start meeting people from the get-go.

That, and maybe setting the gangers and other NPCs so they detect a character object's age and change their @fatal accordingly so they don't completely kill newbies, just beat them shitless.

By Murphy at Jun 16, 2003, 9:12 PM | 0

I believe the gangers do have that capability now.. But the whole point here is to steer them away from that MUD mentality in the first place. I've seen newbies get beat shitless only to get up and start attacking again, and again, and so on. I'm not positive, but I think even @lethal has its limits.

Anyway, you still bring up some good ideas. But I don't know about that pamphlet thing. I was trying to think of more interactive ways for them to learn so they would absolutely have to read and/or recite things in order for them to be admitted into the game. The money issue is pretty good as well.. but I'm not sure if it fits with the RED level's theme. Perhaps charisma checks to allow chargen characters to become corpies? (And history checks too, of course.. afterwards.) Of course they would probably have to have alot of charisma for that to work, thereby making them much weaker in other categories.

But that's kinda off-topic. Any more ideas? :D Let's keep them rolling out.

By Aikao at Jun 16, 2003, 9:20 PM | 0

Here's a little taste of something thats going to be put to use soon to make combat more … sane when it involves npcs.

[font=courier]
$combat_action_script

exits "%ways"
attackers "%potential"

if fighting "%victim" %perp
if guarding "%what" %exit
if grappling "%who" %victim
if detainedby "%who" %victim
if armed %npc
if armored %npc
if healthy %npc
if dying %npc
if bleeding %npc
if unconscious %npc
if dead %npc
corpse %npc is "%corpse"
posture "defensive"

fatal "on"

ceasefire

aim %victim

guard "%exit"
unguard "%exit"

attack "%victim"

grapple "%victim"
release "%victim"

resist
flee %destination
[/font]

Basically, it'll do exactly what you ask Murphy. It'll make the NPCs able to not kill newbies. Not to mention a ton of other kick ass shit.

By Johnny at Jun 16, 2003, 9:21 PM | 0

Hm.. �for newbies, I understand where a little leeway may be made to help them along and make things easier. �But.. �Hm.. �the "potential" thing is rather interesting. �Will that basically make gangers know how badass/notbadass you are when fighting you? �That seems a tiddly bit unfair. �:P

But who knows, it might be cool. �

(Edited by Aikao at 12:29 am on June 17, 2003)

By Aikao at Jun 16, 2003, 9:28 PM | 0

Quote: from Aikao on 12:20 am on June 17, 2003[br] I've seen newbies get beat shitless only to get up and start attacking again, and again, and so on. I'm not positive, but I think even @lethal has its limits.

If they're THAT dumb, what makes you think a tutorial would help them any? The ones with an ounce of sense will get up and leave, the rest who don't learn even after heaving their faces kicked in will probably quit anyway.

As for the money, I don't see anything unthemely about characters being brought into the game with enough money to survive for a week and buy some crummy clothes - working at SHI is boring as hell and, considering the lack of newbies, is no longer a good place to meet people. In my newbies days - and this is back when shit was flying all the time, from GMs and players alike - SHI was the most gawdawful thing to be doing. It got mind numbingly boring, even when there were two or three other people there. As it stands, SHI should be last-ditch, not a primary source of income for anyone. Remember, in an roleplaying game, nobody is in it to play a mundane, they're there to adventure and have fun - or at the very least semi-participate in some shit. But definitely not to be your run of the mill SHI bum.

As for gangers knowing how badass you are, it's not so bad. Usually, by the time you've played long enough to be badass, you've got a rep. There are no two ways about it.

Besides, I'd like to see gangers flee after being shot in the groin. Sort of found them really dumb, fighting to the death like that.

By Murphy at Jun 16, 2003, 9:35 PM | 0

True, true. SHI definately is supposed to be a last-ditch effort, and is especially empty recently.

Perhaps your right. Maybe the extra money will even persuade the newbies to take more risks (reasonable ones, mind you).

That could lead to some good RP.

By Aikao at Jun 16, 2003, 9:40 PM | 0

Personally I think that starting people off with upwards of 3,000, maybe even 4,000 chyen wouldn't be a half bad idea.

Here's the part that is half bad: It makes newbies targets, and encourages people to hit up the coffins and sit there for hours on end spamming the pick command. Maybe that could be addressed by IC means…

Anyway, while I do think newbies ICly should be targets, OOCly it dosn't make them want to stick around.

So... I dunno. Just my two chyen. Discuss it amongst yourselves.

-Kevlar

By Kevlar at Jun 17, 2003, 12:41 AM | 0

people sitting around the cube areas and spamming the pick / �steal x from' commands on newbs is nothing new though, right? i don't know how things are now since i don't sit around the cubes but from past personal experience, someone would steal/pick from you, you'd move, they steal/pick, you go up to the roof (when you could) they steal/pick, you move again.. repeat, repeat till they get bored or you have nothing left. the end. wow! that was wonderful! it's just seems like something that has to be dealt within an IC/OOC combination as a faux pas? �it's one thing to pick their pockets bone dry taking their underwear as well and a completely different thing to pick their pockets once or twice then when you see them in the drome 5 mins later to buy them a drink with the poor chummers own money and introduce yourself and your uh.. services. or something. :)

so yes, i think we -all- now agrea that a) new chars should have a bit more money (and you know what? until there�s a larger player base, i think screw the �but it�s not in theme!� line) and b) stonings for those that �abuse- this fact� PCs and NPC�s alike?…

but to the point, training sessions such as Aikao suggested would be wonderful. same as him, SD was the first M** i'd ever RPd on, er.. 1st RP i'd ever done actualy, i read the help files and documentation that was available, (and it wasn't as nicely organised), so commands weren�t the big factor for me (though i still forget �freehands� and how to drop money every so often) i knew enough not to just type 'kill blah' (probably since i didn't come from MUDs. :P) but i knew nothing about NPC interaction, let alone -what- an NPC was, i knew nothing of scripted responses, and the idea of ambient population and tailoring your RP to the surroundings � (some would say me knowing it now is up for debate. ;))

i�m not saying that SD should teach a crash course in MOO/RP �- history, theory and social dynamics 101, but -if- a training component is ever going to be included it shouldn�t simply be an interactive rehash of what commands are available or the 'help newb' files. if someone can�t get basic commands from the already GOOD help files.. then like Murphy said� if they are �that- dumb�

i have a point, my addition to this is that maybe a tutorial could go as far as help �build- your char? �i�m �not- saying it should make generic CP templates and histories for people, but that the training components could be used to flesh out ideas that people have for a char but aren�t sure how to go about creating. forcing more thought about CP and what RP will stem from the birth of bob the goat ninja Jr.

i�ll try to explain what i mean after my next coffee break oki?

--

onto newbs, money and RP� it�s small but it�s something that could address all three..

VLTs. (or whatever the 2088 equivalent would be)

i�m serious�

put some VLTs in the drome. some nickel sluts (teehee�) people go to the drome anyways, it tends to be the focal point of random social interaction, ok and carnal� heh.. but with the small amount of chars, most people head to the drome.

so, VLTs � make them cheap to play and based on the chars�s age, a greater or less possibility of hitting a jackpot? adds a certain element of risk, with the distinct possibility of a payoff the younger your char is? �money! and people interacting! plotting together as they gamble and carouse!

on that topic, i know there used to be a working casino � what happened to it? i�m assuming rampant code abuse� as with all the cool things. :|

� god, will there be a day when i can stay on topic in a post?

no.

ps. *pets the new char/old player, new char/new player, whatever/whatever that didn't thing twice about picking bias's pocket.*

(Edited by Bias at 9:36 am on June 17, 2003)

By Bias at Jun 17, 2003, 8:37 AM | 0

Quote: from Bias on 11:37 am on June 17, 2003[br] you go up to the roof (when you could) they steal/pick,

See, when people follow you to the roof and try to steal from you when you're on the roof, you can just make them get off the roof really really fast. *coughs*

I think an simple/realistic solution to this would be to make subsequent pickings/steal-ings on the same target within a short timeframe (10-30min) easier to detect - cumulative penalties! Each subsequent picking could add something like 10mins to the clock. So if you pick someone all day, it's guaranteed that they'll notice you eventually, no matter their skill.

e.g.:

You [to StupidThief]: Excuse me, but you've had your hands in my pockets how long now? I hate to break this to you, but you're not my type. SHOO!

As for new characters being targets because they came in with a wad of cash - doesn't that temporary immunity thing work anymore? So long as they don't steal/attack, they should be immune for a certain time period from stealing and attacks. Of course, some may use this opportunity to mouth off….but that just means they're in deep doodoo when their immunity wears off, woth half the dome out to gank them.

By Murphy at Jun 17, 2003, 11:01 AM | 0

by murph

"make subsequent pickings/steal-ings on the same target within a short timeframe (10-30min) easier to detect - cumulative penalties! "

first of all that is an awesome idea you have no idea how many times I've been robbed mulptile times by the same person, and no matter how good of a thief you are if you literally go around with your hands in other's pockets in the real world they WILL catch (and hopefully for them) teach a lesson to you (sorry I understand theivery is a big part of the game, I'm just biased, )

anyway on to my main point:
when my first charcter got its first approved history, some guy just came up and attacked me, he smacked me around a little and knocked me out (in my defense I put up a few minute fight, not bad for a pansy newbie) when I awoke, I asked what gives and he went on to say he was trying to releave stress and had no intention of killing me. during the fight, auctially before, he had drug me to shi and after the fight explained how to work there, and gave me a few quick hints for better rp. keeping everything well in charcter I might add

I'm guessing that this situation was set up by an admin, or at least someone high enough up the chain to see that I was having trouble. I don't know how often this auctially happens, but that was a really great way to make quick friends, generate some decent RP for both the newbie and the "teacher", and help out newbies, I know there are people out there willing to be the "teachers" and help out some newbies, you never know you might even make a friend with some skills you may make use of later.

and the best thing about it, besides the fact that nobody enjoys boring, spcific, step-by-step instructions on "how to act in withmore!" (just my opinion) is it doesn't require anymore code, just a watchful admin to tell when a charcter needs a nudge in the right direction (admins love to watch us rp anyway right?) and a charcter willing to help out (if there are none of those mine will be the first to volunteer.) and if you really can't find "teachers" reward people ic for every "lesson" taught just make sure you use a teacher who has a good grasp on ic, and ooc.

what do you guys and gals think?

By Jotun at Jun 17, 2003, 11:38 AM | 0

I've got to type Jotun that your input ironically seems to have more insight, and I would agree with you.

I don't think that new characters need any more money.

I think that some public IC info on Withmore readily available, maybe a new arrival terminal, or wall screen device serving the same function would be good *shrugs*. If people can't be bothered to read that, for IC or OOC reasons, I think that they have no right to experience Sindome. That's not a problem with being new, it's a problem with the person.

Aikao, regarding the tutorial I must say that I would prefer reading text, to copying and pasting it, and doing other thing that ensure that I'm not being an undeserving lazy person. Also, would you force the person to have to take a tutorial? And could they skip areas, because when a character is created, within right to anonymity, one doesn't have to disclose if they are new to SD or not, and there is no true way to find out, that is acceptable.
I wouldn't want to have to do some tutorial every time I made a new character, and to have to tell an admin that I aren�t new, through an e-mail address used with previous characters you know. It's just silly.
And without being silly, I don't see how it could work, as your main point was to force new players to learn before they go and mess things up for themselves and others 'IC' right?

Hmm, I think that there are much more important things to code, but if someone coded a training place, using virtual space…then admins could just through players there that clearly show that they don't have a clue what they're doing and are being disruptive as a result, right?

Sorry for the long and convoluted sentences, I'll edit it if it makes no sense.

I just logged on after a period of absence from SD, and was shocked by the amount of sleepers lying around in the streets, I could just imagine them piled on top of each other..... I don't think that the problem is so much that there aren�t enough players, but more that there aren�t enough players that can play. If just half of those people actually played stuck with it, learnt, used some intelligence, they would soon play well and the situation would dramatically improve.
Maybe the admins can give some insight into where these people are coming from...as there is a question on that when one starts up (I found SD through a mudconnecter search by the way).

Yikes, I'm rambling. I'm just thinking about quality not quantity.

Regarding money, I think that the current 50 chyen makes for just as good, or better initial RP, and makes players ICly more likely to help than exploit I believe.
I've had numerous RP situations with a new character, where an established one has helped them out, and engaged in some good RP. It really doesn�t seem that bad, and with the temporary immunity, and so much to see on Red, they really don't need any more money. As for the new characters of old players, well they should know how to get set up quickly.

I've got some more comments, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Good luck making sense of it ;)

By Protagonist at Jun 17, 2003, 1:31 PM | 0

well put pro,

another thing:
I'm Pretty much a newbie, (look at my posts, though I never posted much until recently) and rp'ing learning tasks around the dome has not only been challenging, (in a good way) but fun. If you need too much help getting started than maybe SD is not for you. don't get me wrong there are many times where I long for more pc's but we also don't want a bunch of idiots roaming around aimless either, this isn't everquest(thank god)

By Jotun at Jun 18, 2003, 7:04 AM | 0

Yes! If nothing else comes of this discussion, we MUST push forward the idea of giving players more starting money. It's not easy picking a living from "one off" visitors sleeping on the streets when they only have 50 chyen a piece.

And, no offense to who-ever came up with the idea, but the tutorial concept is just complete bollocks. Course, that said, I can't be bothered to submit any useful ideas for discussion so feel free to ignore my otherwise useless opinion :).

By TAFKAR at Jun 18, 2003, 11:17 AM | 0

And, no offense to who-ever came up with the idea, but the tutorial concept is just complete bollocks. Course, that said, I can't be bothered to submit any useful ideas for discussion so feel free to ignore my otherwise useless opinion.

While I think its perfectly fine for you state that you think its 'complete bollocks', you haven't stated WHY. If you've got a reason, state it, others might agree.

Alas, you did say it was a useless opinion, so maybe thats all we're gonna get from you. ;)

By Johnny at Jun 18, 2003, 11:27 AM | 0

I personally wouldn't say 'complete bollocks', but dry, and possibly boring compared to learning IC espically for non-newbies with new charcters if it is manditory.

what the hell is bollocks anyway? like sandra maybe ?

anyway here's what I really wanted to post: as opposed to just handing newbies thousands of dollars of cash, let them work at SHI without an approved history maybe? its a crappy job and getting a verified histroy can be one of those frustrating things for newbies. (it was for me)

now that I know what you guys want in a history (and I've already had 3 approved) it's not as big of an issue but my first one sucked the fat floppy donkey dick until I revised It and I didn't really know or care why. I RP'ed, and gm'ed uncountable systems including D&D, rifts, shadowrun, Vampire, Werewolf, and gammaworld just to name a few and never had any pc's or gm's put enough emphasis on the history to make us write 3 whole paragraphs. BooHoo!

though honestly now that I see how it puts me in touch with my charcter I may require more detail in the future, which is why we should definately not totally eliminate it.

By Jotun at Jun 18, 2003, 11:54 AM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 3:54 am on June 18, 2003[br]my first one sucked the fat floppy donkey dick…

YOU… are my new favourite poster to these forums.

By TAFKAR at Jun 18, 2003, 12:23 PM | 0

Hoki, why is it bollocks? In itself, the whole OOC tutorial thing probably isn't a bad idea, perhaps something that could be tied into an extended and much needed reimplementation of char-gen, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

It's bollocks because the aim, reading between the lines, is to capture and keep more players than are currently being hooked into extended play. For sure, there's dozens of reasons why SD is facing something of a crisis in the player count department recently, but one thing that sure as hell isn't going to fix it is keeping new players away from the action longer than they already are while wandering aimlessly round the dome in search of one of the very few players connected, let alone in a publicly accessible area.

The funny thing is, I pointed out the decline in the player base… over a year ago? And infrequently since. What have I been told, every time? That the player base was solid, the game was better than ever, there are HUGE plots and all the players are involved. Fair enough, not that I believed it given what the players that were "involved" were saying. And now, only a matter of weeks after my last comment about the dire issues with the player base, I suddenly hear admin expressing concerns about the decline in the player base. Don't get me wrong, but I pointed this out -months- ago when the average counts were in the high teens instead of mid-twenties. Now that the count frequently fails to get out of single figures and all too often there's only idle admin connected, suddenly people decide to sit up and take notice?

Knowing how to build up a player base isn't an exact science, but yea, I know exactly what I'd try and I know exactly what's worked in the past. I know that at least a few players have given you their opinions of what is wrong and what needs to change... and have had it thrown back in their faces because the admin "know better". Fuck, -I've- tried to offer my advice and concerns at the problems that, at the time, apparently only I could see.

With all due respect to the newer players, they're not the people to be taking advice from. The players you've lost or are losing who've been around for at least 12 months, in many cases more, they're the ones who -know- the game and it's IC dynamics. They know what's moving, what's not, what's working and what's smelling like a fat mans jock.

For too long you've dodged the issue. Denying the facts isn't going to address the problems and deleting posts doesn't change a thing. The sad fact is that for the past few weeks I've been connected to Sindome and CS simultaneously for the purpose of monitoring player counts. During that time I've seen over 10 players (11) on SD on only -one- occasion. On all other occasions I've been seeing 5's and 6's at best, frequently less and undoubtedly the count has on several occasions been made up entirely of idle admin. On one occasion I was the -only- person connected to the MOO.

Now I know someone is going to argue that I'm not connected at peak times and don't see the busiest periods. I won't dispute that fact, BUT... in the period I observed the above counts, Cybersphere's player count remained consistently in the low to mid 20's. And again, I know someone is going to argue CS's relevence to this whole discussion since SD isn't CS, but by way of a comparison it's a reasonable measuring post. Approximately 2 years ago, SD player counts -consistently- matched CS, so the differences between the games sure as hell doesn't mean it's not possible for SD to aim for (or above) those targets.

You want advice? What little I'm willing to offer is there if you're willing to listen. Making SD a success isn't my job anymore, but I know that when it was my job it was in a better state than it is now. Makes Iga's post about how we used to "argue and never get anything done" all the more amusing.

So anyhow... bollocks. Interaction is the key. Players connecting for the first time -are- and always have been hooked by the concept, timeline and initial "feel" of the game. That much has been well documented by newbies and oldbies alike. The problem lies in the fact that after a certain amount of wandering around, that intial impact wears pretty damned thin if you've not found any significant /player/ interaction. Dragging new players through an extended period of OOC tutorial or even pseudo-IC automated tutorial is just going to eat into the newbies "honeymoon" time in which they're happy to wander in search of excitment before abandoning the game as "dull".

And you really should do something about that horrendous yes, yes, yes, yes, yes SIC implantation proceedure right out of chargen. If -anything- gives a bad first impression of the game, it's that particularly tedious, linear and inspirationally banal piece of code.

I can almost picture them clicking the "delete post" button now...

By TAFKAR at Jun 19, 2003, 3:05 PM | 0

thanks for the comment you're pretty good too.::::
"smelling like a fat mans jock."

you have lots of good stuff to say, I don't agree with all of it but thats what makes us human,

however, I think the lack of interaction is in part due to the oldbies not giving two shits or a fuck about newbies, (maybe rightfully so) and the newbies being too "new" to quickly organize the awesome rp sessions we all enjoy.

I would say if there are intricate plotlines going on at least 75% of them involve oldbies, don't get me wrong I've done some decent roleplaying, and I'm not expecting all oldies to love and befriend all newbies, but come on, toss us a bone, ask us for help on some raid, at least for god's sake don't fuck us over every single possible opporturnity you have.

on a side note I wonder how many of the 6-14 connected chars. are admins or npc's?

while I may be revisiting this idea too often but the IC training would also build at least a working interaction with more charcters.

this,

"The problem lies in the fact that after a certain amount of wandering around, that intial impact wears pretty damned thin if you've not found any significant /player/ interaction. Dragging new players through an extended period of OOC tutorial or even pseudo-IC automated tutorial is just going to eat into the newbies "honeymoon" time in which they're happy to wander in search of excitment before abandoning the game as "dull"."

is definately true.

but what's wrong with the SIC's??

By Jotun at Jun 19, 2003, 5:57 PM | 0

Damn, it's been a while since I posted…

Anyway, I've seen this newbie training thing inacted many times in many different genres and types of games. What does it do? It tries to train the new player to interact in the world of the game...

Has anyone ever played Criosphere... Cryosphere.... However it's spelled? I hear that they have something called the RP simulator that makes sure that players are competent before they go IC.

I've seen people go as far as to make a newbie island that you have to spend so much time on before you get the skill to swim across to the mainland... Something like this really only works if you've got a large, constant flow of newbies.

So what does it all help? I wouldn't know. Should new characters start with a nice little wad of money? Maybe. What if we put it in the bank, perhaps encouraging the new players to keep only as much as they need on them... To give them that little advantage to make them want to play, and at the same time, deter people from targeting new players for theft.

I would imagine, though, that starting them with a sum of money up to 3K would cause some problems with alts, though. People who think they can get away with creating 5 accounts and transferring all the money to one. But I don't have to enforce these things, and it seems a larger sum of starting money is a bit of a popular idea.

As for player counts, yes, I've seen them drop by alot since I've been here, about 16 months. I think that I attribute it to lack of GMing. Quantity of players is really nice, believe me, but I think that we also maintain the quality players, too. I can tell you that most of the players that are on (that I've met, anyway) are first class roleplayers, people who spark RP everywhere they go, unlike some people (I've been guilty of this, too) who just go to work and pay their rent, waiting for something to happen to them.

I think that if some people make an effort to make things exciting, to get some action going on, like alot of my favorite characters used to do, the number of players will go up. Just because admins have more control over the game doesn't mean that you can't change it for the better. The game is nothing without the players, and the game is everything and more if the players make it that way. Shouldn't be the admins' responsibility to keep things interesting all the time, but that is what keeps new players.

So I think that if you want more people to RP with... RP more! Show those guests just why they want to be a player. Show those new players why they should stay a player. Show those players older than you why they should play more.

By Damus at Jun 19, 2003, 6:27 PM | 0

I think Damus has a point with that whole 'newbie island' thing.

It, at the most fundemental level, gives them a challenge… Something to strive towards -right now-. It also probablly has the effect of bonding them to their characters, knowing that they can't just 'die and waltz back into the game'.

I think that's what everyone agrees is missing, right? That initial challenge which leads to (or holds them over till they can) RP later on?

-Kevlar

By Kevlar at Jun 19, 2003, 6:46 PM | 0

If we move a number of oldbies into positions of authority that they've earned ICly, they can recruit and manage their 'troops' autonomously.

I remember saying at one point that players wouldn't be given control over IC organizations, but I think I see why its important.

The GMs can't always be around, so the game has to be able to work without them and STILL promote RP.

I'm not saying we'd give oldbies total control over an organization, but if they were in a position that had access to funds and the ability to hire/fire subordinates, that would do it.

And yes, I -know- people have said this before. Moss comes to mind, FS comes to mind and probably Rastus too. As some of you know, I gotta come to some conclusions on my own, always have, always will.

I'll kick this idea around some more.

By Johnny at Jun 19, 2003, 6:55 PM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 8:57 pm on June 19, 2003[br]however, I think the lack of interaction is in part due to the oldbies not giving two shits or a fuck about newbies, (maybe rightfully so) and the newbies being too "new" to quickly organize the awesome rp sessions we all enjoy. �
I would say if there are intricate plotlines going on at least 75% of them involve oldbies, don't get me wrong I've done some decent roleplaying, and I'm not expecting all oldies to love and befriend all newbies, but come on, toss us a bone, ask us for help on some raid, at least for god's sake don't fuck us over every single possible opporturnity you have. �

As probably the closest thing y'all have as an active oldbie 'round these here parts (pardon my John Wayne), I sort of have to disagree here - really, of the really old (i.e. substantially older than me) characters, who's left? Just Wildfire and Nic? Gally?
The current generation of what can be called oldbies would be….Des, Lucien, Alla, me (in that order).

I can't speak for everyone but I can say that I've involved a good bunch of new/weak/poor/whathaveyou characters in shit that I've pulled, and over the time I've spent on SD, following the example set by the oldbies I played with when I was new, I've doled out over a hundred thousand chyen here and there, and probably more than that in gear to both older and newer players/characters. Not to mention that Judge players tend to go easy on fines for new characters and/or players (an example of this is, for instance, giving a 800c fine when the Book says my character could/should legally slap up to 20k on their behinds. 800c to be paid in over two weeks isn't a lot, goboys.).

At the same time, way things are I have to be (very) picky about who my character consorts with - didn't used to be quite that way a year ago, but times change.
Circles of RP form and close, cliques form, that's where things are going, and when newbies pop in, they can't poke into any cliques, and that's rendered worse by the cliquy cliques being paranoid - but not paranoid in the right ways. So their shit gets fucked and they whine and tighten their circles....and more newbies are left in the cold. Mind you, back when I started playing, there were cliques as well - but there were also more GMs online to fuck around and toy with the newbies. They didn't need organized plots, just having an NPC or two harass them or befriend them, or just to see and Art and Sinner slug it out over the NPC prostitute is enough to make the world seem alive. Hell, almost all my characters major RP has revolved around one single incident which happened two weeks after I chargenned! It was so minor even the GMs involved and probably some of the players don't even remember. But I do - and it can still drive if you know how to play it. For most people, a friend/girlfriend/home gets killed, they shrug it off in a month and forget about it, even when it can be a TREMENDOUS source of potentially infinite RP, even -without- angsting. Angsting sucks by the way, it's annoying and cheesy. I haven't seen any on SD yet, but...

Now, if your current generation of middlebies, which is pretty much all you have active on Red nowadays, is fucking you over...well, there are ways to fuck them over too. You don't need stats. Or money. You need half a brain, some info, and a plan. There's an established order of things, you need to learn it and exploit it. That's not all there is, but it's part of it. Of course, problem is it's a wee bit hard to make newbie friends, because there aren't that many newbies sticking around, but if newbies had other newbie friends, they'd stick around.

So a suggestion to newbies - befriend other newbies. A suggestion to those who aren't quite newbies, but not really old - befriend newbies, they come in handy sooner or later.

But even with all this, you gotta stay IC - which can be another problem in a way: if your character really hates someone's guts accoridng to their personality, befriending them just because is awfully ooc. And you shouldn't be doing it. But, on the flip side, using someone you don't like (without necessarily fucking them over) isn't a bad idea either. Newbies are/look clueless - this is their advantage. You can use a newbie for so many things, they're even more handy than velcro!

I rant. Ph33r.

By Murphy at Jun 19, 2003, 8:56 PM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 9:57 am on June 19, 2003[br]on a side note I wonder how many of the 6-14 connected chars. are admins or npc's?

None of them are NPC's. NPC's don't show on @who… except when Damon and I conspire to hack @who so that it shows -every- NPC in the entire game as connected in @who, all several hundred of them... that was some funny shit.

By TAFKAR at Jun 20, 2003, 12:59 PM | 0

Quote: from Kevlar on 10:46 am on June 19, 2003[br]I think Damus has a point with that whole 'newbie island' thing.
It, at the most fundemental level, gives them a challenge… Something to strive towards -right now-. It also probablly has the effect of bonding them to their characters, knowing that they can't just 'die and waltz back into the game'.
I think that's what everyone agrees is missing, right? That initial challenge which leads to (or holds them over till they can) RP later on?

Allowing for the fact you'd probably happily discount my opinion, no, I don't agree. Infact, it's the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting. The immediate snag you need to get people coming back is HUMAN interaction, be it IC, OOC or "DONTYOUFUCKING-C?". That interaction is a building block and a lure for the newbie to come back in order to build on the initial contact. Social interaction == reason to connect, it's that simple.

What almost everyone seems to be missing in their suggestions of what's needed to attract players is that Sindome DID have a significantly larger and more active player and admin base than it does now. Thus, the immediate problem to address is NOT what needs to be added, but what has been LOST (or added to detrimental effect). Until that is addressed, I question the value of throwing further complications and code at what appears to be an underlying problem.

By TAFKAR at Jun 20, 2003, 1:18 PM | 0

Ok, i haven't read the boards in a while, and I'm responding to some older posts.

First was Jotun's first, about the older character helping him out. Just to let you know, Jo, that wasn't admin influenced at all. That was all IC interaction, and you just happened to be the victim.

Second. I agree with Damus and the rest utterly and completely about a lack of GM base. I think that this greatly affects the player base directly, however big or small it may be. I know that I'm just repeating what was already said, but I'm talking from what little experience I have compared to some like Murphy, Ike, Damus, and the admins. I know what it's like to be -completely- alone on the MOO. Yeah, yeah. It may have been the wee hours of the morning, but still. Having 5 or 6 people isn't any better, considering 1-3 of them are idling admins, and you're one too. That's what it's like most every day during the day until evening. It's not all that exciting, and there's virtually no RP becuz you're either all alone with idling admin, or the other/others can't be found, which is really your own problem. But anyways, if there were more GMs, everyone could benefit. I can't really talk from experience, but I'd say being a GM wouldn't be all that fun, just in my opinion. I'm not really sure why all of them just got up and left, but it really hurt the MOO as far as I can see. Coding has nothing to do with a lack of player base, or at least it shouldn't unless you are shallow and complain becuz Johnny is taking virtually all of his free time and putting it into the MOO which he does for no money, yet he can't code enough cool cyber shit for you (the grammar there could have been bad). GMs aren't there just to start RP, as some may think. They're not there to make things happen (as far as I know). They're there to assist you in RP, to make it fun for you. As I recall, someone stated in this topic or maybe another, that GM formed plots involve basically no players. I'm not all to sure of how true that may be, but I know that I've had my share of experiences with NPCs puppeted by admins/GMs, and that was in these days, when GMs are lacking. I guess what I'm saying is, if there were more GMs, the reaction would be more NPC-player RP, creating more events, more RP, and just more overall excitement to the Dome. Many things could come from this: People wouldn't just hang around the Drome all day just cuz that's in the middle of the city, and everyone goes there. People would spread out more, becuz even if players weren't there, there's NPC's everywhere that you could strike up RP with. I say screw you all who say that you have to have new stuff to satisfy your needs. RPing isn't all about having the newest stuff. Yes, CP is all about futuristic cool cyberware and shit. But really, it isn't all that necessary. The MOO already has a huge CP vibe; cyberware is just something that Johnny is/has been hard at work on for quite some time now. I don't really have room to talk, but I don't think many of you realize how hard coding actually is. It takes time, and brains (keyword there is time; that's right, we must wait).

Ok. I'm done now. I hope that made at least the least bit of sense to anyone. It's probly just restating other people's posts, but I felt obligated as a partial midbie to express my thoughts. Peace.

P.S. I know that I've given myself props for my longest post before…but I think this suprasses it. :-P

(Edited by Kain at 2:19 am on June 21, 2003)

By Kain at Jun 21, 2003, 12:14 AM | 0

Just curious…
If anyone here is mentally challenged, raise your hand.

Bewler? ( ;) )

Right. None of you..well, most of you aren't stupid. You're fully capable of, through your character, initiating/continuing/etc a plot. Have an idea you think would be really cool? Find a way to get your character either A>Involved in it if it's already running, or B> Start it yourself.
GM's aren't a requirement for shit to happen, they're just supposed to nurture and help.

(Edited by Lotus at 12:34 am on June 21, 2003)

By Lotus at Jun 21, 2003, 12:33 AM | 0

Exactly what I was saying Lotus…er...I think that's what I typed. Anyways, yeah. GMs aren't there to start things for you all the time. They're there to help and assist through puppeting of NPCs which therefore evolves the RP from player-player to players-NPCs.

So yes, I agree.

By Kain at Jun 21, 2003, 12:36 AM | 0

I think you're largely correct, Kain. It isn't about GMs creating massive plots, but just being present.

And I think this is the time and place for me to apologize to everyone for suddenly being less than present.

My life took a few unexpected turns, but mostly I just… lost a certain drive. This is inexplicable and inexcusable. I love this place, and all of you, and I think *crosses fingers* that I will be much more available now. My inspiration flew out the window, partly for personal reasons and partly for reasons I can't discuss here, but at any rate I do apologize to players and fellow admin alike for not being around enough. And I can also say that the inspiration has returned to me in full force and seems to be a more permanent fixture.

Please trust that with time things WILL get better and more exciting. And it's going to take all of us to make that the case.

By Athena at Jun 21, 2003, 1:02 AM | 0

I'm largely correct you say? No way. That's awesome. I was hoping I was making the slightest bit of sense. My goal surpassed my hopes by a long shot then.

And I speak for myself when I say that I forgive your absense because I know and so do others that life gets in the way of things sometimes. I was just hoping you didn't bail on us…cuz then who would strike me down with lightning? :P Anyways...thanks for coming back. Shows that there's still hope in the GMs.

By Kain at Jun 21, 2003, 1:31 AM | 0

GMs aren't there just to start RP, as some may think. They're not there to make things happen (as far as I know). They're there to assist you in RP, to make it fun for you.

Sorry there Kain, but I, at least, have to disagree with ya.

I don't believe GMs are/should be there just to make the game fun for others - alhough that's part of it.

GMs are also there to breathe life into the world, and, most importantly, to have fun themselves!

Yes. GMs should have fun. Raise your hands, any of you who've played and/or GMed a pen and paper roleplaying game? You should all know that the GM in these instances is just another type of player, who is having fun playing NPCs and pulling players by the nose. Have any of you ever played in a campaign where the GM was only there to make sure you had fun? I haven't, I've never seen it, and when I GMed p&p games myself, I usually had as much fun as the 'regular' players. Coincidentally, part of the players' job is to have fun, but to interest the GMs.

Now, I know this is an online and not pen and paper game, but the same can, and in my opinion, should apply.

Maybe that's what's missing from the admin side of things, maybe the GMs aren't logging on 'cause they ain't having as much fun as they used to. Just speculation, but it might be something to look in to. GMing, or indeed, running this game at all shouldn't be like work - and that goes for Johnny and Kev as well. If they aren't having fun doing their coding thing at any point, they should take time off from hardcore coding, maybe go out, meet some chicks, drink some beers, watch some flicks, put on their disco suits and stick spoons up their noses (the kind with fairy dust)! WHEE! It's not like the MOO will die if there's no new code added for a week or two.

By Murphy at Jun 21, 2003, 9:39 AM | 0

::raises his hand up high with a thumbs up!

murph, just when I'm not sure I agree with you or not, You say something frickin nice.

nobody's asking for admins to hold our hand through the dome, but don't sit there and stare at the screen all night, I bet that is boring, take control of some npc's start some RP.

yes yes yesyesyes I can rp by myself, but it freakin helps.

to take a quick step backward to the topic of this post though, newbie island? yeah, really attrictive sounding.

don't load newbies up with gifts of lots of cash, thats like throwing more cash at a failing social security system who would do something that dumb.

let all newbies work, start a new post asking for ideas for jobs around the dome and add one or two. but ….. restrict the @fatal thats right until you have proven you can get a history, or whatever the deciding factor is in being "off the gay newbie island" you can't kill,

I'm not saying that is the exact answer(the @fatal thing may not work) but my real point is give newbies(and everyone)more access to cash, but don't hand it to them.

By Jotun at Jun 21, 2003, 2:06 PM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 5:06 pm on June 21, 2003[br]murph, just when I'm not sure I agree with you or not, You say something frickin nice. �

What can I say.

I'm a strange guy.

By Murphy at Jun 21, 2003, 2:09 PM | 0

I deleted the posts about the spelling error to keep this good discussion on topic.

By Johnny at Jun 21, 2003, 11:04 PM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 2:06 pm on June 21, 2003[br]
nobody's asking for admins to hold our hand through the dome, but don't sit there and stare at the screen all night, I bet that is boring, take control of some npc's start some RP. �
yes yes yesyesyes �I can rp by myself, but it freakin helps. �

you bang on an NPC's door but no one answers,
you keep talking to rychek even though he keeps telling you he didn't understand your drink order,
you chit chat about the weather and lack of good hookers with a catatonic NPC ganger while your char is on their smoke break…

when GM's notice you trying to interact with an NPC, they have two choices (in theory.. always in theory), either puppet them or not! if they do, people RP follows, maybe a story line inches along, maybe you learn some info or you learn nothing, maybe it's just character building conversations. maybe they beat you up for lying about knowing the good hookers or flashing a wad of money at them. whatever. both sides should have fun.

if a GM isn't around, you can still have fun with the NPC as long as it isn't twinkish. in RL you got people who don't react to you, hold their side of the convo, or are downright rude to you.

use your imagination. it's unplanned events, like tripping and falling to ones death, or wandering across a corpse with 2k on them but not....

sorry Johnny, this post has less point then the spelling mistake ones.

that said, i frankly doubt that GM's or admins sit and stare at their screens just waiting with baited breath for a char to come along and demand their attention.

but... -that- said, newbie island, or whatever one chooses to call it,
(cannon fodder training camp�? teehee)
if the damned thing was implemented with thought and yeah, if there was �enough- players drifting in, it could be an area to sort of �feel out� the game AND your char without the consequences that might lead a player to give up on the game too quickly�

i don�t think it �has- to be silly coddling or aggravatingly repetitive yes/no questions�

murphy's suggestion about withmores immigration process� so many possibilities there to explore!

anyone have to deal with the INS lately?
IT TRAINS YOU WELL! i'm not sure for what.. but god. what a trip.

(Edited by Bias at 11:45 pm on June 21, 2003)

By Bias at Jun 21, 2003, 11:43 PM | 0

Right so even if most people want this newbie training island place, how all of you suppose they get there?
The problems I highlighted in my post still hold…

Throw people in there that clearly show they don't have a clue after they come out of chargen, to the admins discretion? Maybe with an automatic message...

*shrugs*

I think that it could be a good idea, for keeping people who will currently only be detrimental to the game, and only good for exploitation, out of the game, whilst hopefully providing something enjoyable, that at the end, will make them into people who will benefit the game, and navigate it with no problems.

However I still hold the belief that this should only be attempted when no, more important code projects are in the works, which may be a situation that is never reached.

Hehe, I've forgotten what the original topic was and stuff, so this may be calling from another topic but Rastus stated that to find the problem with the low player counts we should look to what existed before, and does not now, or what now exists to the detriment of previous things.
I don't believe that we need a newbie island. SD has flourished for a long time without it, and its current state is not just some weird phenomenon.
Everybody must realise that the greatest problem is the lack of GMs. With looking at things in retrospect there is always the inherent problem that one may get the causality incorrect, so in this instance, the GM's leaving could be the effect, and not the cause of the low player count problem. However I don't think that there is a much deeper underlying problem, especially because I think the whole GM mess happened in part due to surface silliness, but that's another matter.

So, more GM's.

Surely the current admins should spend what spare MOO Time they have in order to invest in more admins, hopefully resulting in more time for all the admins.
This newbie island idea would be a big undertaking to do well, would require admin support, and rather than address the problem aired by many of oldbies and middlebies getting bored, tries to get more newbies in....
If so many established players didn't leave, SD would still be flourishing now...and there is always going to be a limit on how many will find Sindome, and how many of them will actually continue etc.

Don't try to keep the bucket full by throwing in more wine. Cork the hole in the bottom, and a lot less effort is involved. That wine would probably be a lot less turbulent as well, and will have matured/aged nicely.

(Edited by Protagonist at 4:38 pm on June 21, 2003)

By Protagonist at Jun 22, 2003, 12:33 AM | 0

We have this spiffy dream code, along with this code to let us clone stuff (Ditto) and code to let us create stuff from instructions on the hard drive (Mementos). What if a newbies first character wasn't really real?

First time you die, you wake up from a nightmare in a coffin. Or some shit.

Could that satisify the needs of a 'newbie island'?

just musing …

By Johnny at Jun 24, 2003, 1:15 PM | 0

Doesn't anybody like my little analogy then?

'Don't try to keep the bucket full by throwing in more wine. Cork the hole in the bottom, and a lot less effort is involved. That wine would probably be a lot less turbulent as well, and will have matured/aged nicely. '

Doesn't it just nicely indicate that doing action other than creating a newbie island would be a better idea?

Could you clarify Johhny. How would you tell that they were a newbie or not, especially if it's automated?
If you can't, and it happens all the time, or with no relation to how new or not the player is, then it could be heavily abused.

I think that if a 'newbie island' should exist, it would probably best be implemented by throwing those players in that clearly don't know what they are doing and may be causing a disturbance, but aren't really doing anything bad to warrent them being voided.
But now I'm repeating myself, so I'll leave it that.

Nice idea though, I'm just not sure how that could really work properly as a mass implemented system.
Maybe if they attack or kill/try to kill others, this 'bad dream' learning safety net is removed, just as the temporary imunity is (hopefuly preventing as much abuse, because they can still remember what they did, so could essentially risk their life to kill somebody, remember the event and run off to collect the loot). However for many newbies it appears that much of the learning consitutes understanding that you shouldn't just type kill to everything you see and not expect bad things to happen…

Hmm, anybody else?

By Protagonist at Jun 24, 2003, 2:05 PM | 0

I love this topic*

the dream thing….
I love you johnny, but I don't love that idea. imagine the pontential for abuse, espically for players that aren't really new.

once again the newbie island thing is also bad, except as protagionsit said, maybe as a training camp for people who have been identified as bad rp'ers but I still don't think it would make people more interested in hanging around, and that's what we're trying to figure out here right? this idea would take well needed coding time and divert it to stuff that we did fine without in the first place.

for my final idea, I would like to repeat something heard all too often in the dome "keep it ic" let me say that again "Keep It IC" if a charcter is messing up teach him a lesson IC if that doesn't work take him to the void and explain Quickly how things work here, if he or she still can't figure out that this is not a hack and slash game then, at the risk of sounding elitest, ban them first for a couple days, then if they auctially come back and still don't get it right, forever,

maybe people will find out about the practice of banning people who refuse to play right, and flock here hoping for the good rp we offer.

btw this is a little off topic, but the dome has been relatively buiser lately.

keep RP'n damnit!!!

By Jotun at Jun 25, 2003, 7:02 AM | 0

Nope, didn't think so ;)

make people more interested in hanging around, and that's what we're trying to figure out here right?

Well as I think I and others have stated, that's pretty simple. More GMs.

So as you stated 'this idea would take well needed coding time' Jotun, it would also take away time that could be spent getting more GMs, and training new ones up to standard.

By Protagonist at Jun 25, 2003, 7:11 AM | 0

have you even read all of the posts?

since when is this the recruit and train gm's topic?
true the gm situation is not good, but the title reads
"introduction to sindome"
and the first line of the first post reads.

"Alright.. was throwing some ideas around with Johnny about how the RPing skills of the entering newbie could be improved, and to help prevent them from dying within the first few seconds of entering the 'dome."

nothing about gm's even comes up until further down the post.

:) ;) :biggrin: nothing worse than a smug smiley, I hate, hate, hate, hate it.

*****I hate leaving posts like this, but I hate being told I'm wrong when I'm not, johnny feel free to use the delete button again.*****

By Jotun at Jun 25, 2003, 7:24 AM | 0

I've heard two people say 'imagine the potential for abuse' in relation to the dreams. I don't see it, so do enlighten me as to where the abuse factor would be.

By Johnny at Jun 25, 2003, 10:12 AM | 0

I concede maybe not abuse, but how do you explain to the charcter's that they interact with that they don't get the *whatever* they*took, bought**

uh..if you having a dream, how do you interact with people? if you let them interact with others how does that mesh with reality very sticky situation.. and if you don't then you might as well put them on "big gay al's newbie island"

By Jotun at Jun 25, 2003, 10:21 AM | 0

Quote: from Jotun on 11:24 pm on June 24, 2003[br]have you even read all of the posts?
since when is this the recruit and train gm's topic?
true the gm situation is not good, but the title reads
"introduction to sindome"
and the first line of the first post reads.
"Alright.. �was throwing some ideas around with Johnny about how the RPing skills of the entering newbie could be improved, and to help prevent them from dying within the first few seconds of entering the 'dome."
nothing about gm's even comes up until further down the post.

:knob:

By TAFKAR at Jun 25, 2003, 10:29 AM | 0

Johnny I tried to explain it in the brackets in my post.

And Jotun, I know what the original topic is but I think that it has been covered well, and can be related to coming up with methods to address the low player count, which not only I was doing….
This is meant to be a discussion, and my posts can be read straight after Aikao's original one and make sense. My input to the discussion is that I think that what Aikao is proposing should not be given priority over other pressing factors. Both increasing the amount of GMs and Aikao's idea could help the player count, and increasing the amount of GMs could cause

the RPing skills of the entering newbie could [to] be improved

.

Just because my input doesn't conform to the original method of how to address a newbie problem (which in the greater scheme of things could be aiding the decreased player count) doesn't mean that it is inappropriate to this topic.

Topics are a starting point for discussion, and I have simply tried to propose solutions to several problems in one.
I was looking at Sindome from a broad perspective, focused through this topic, through newbies.

I could be nasty and call you narrow minded, but I have read all the posts, some several times, and if my posts weren't on topic enough they would have been deleted.

Now that's off topic ;). Which ironically lead from your objection.

You have a good point about the difficulty of implementing such a dream idea in a multi-user interactive environment. For those that may have been attacked by the 'dreamer' their possible loss would be very real, and it would be IC for many to enact revenge on the now happy newbie, thinking all is okay because it was just a dream. It's also, erm, a little unrealistic? ;)
We're getting into mysticism here.

The newbies could just be rushed off to get cloned by an NPC, maybe through a sister company to the one that set up the depo….
They would OOC remember their mistakes, and it wouldn't matter that they don't ICly as the main point is that the problem is generally caused through acting OOC. It would be a nice opportunity to teach them about IC knowledge related to cloning etc, maybe with a few OOC messages when they emerge from the vat...

Actually, they would remember it ICly as well because they would get cloned after their death. One could expect it to be slightly distorted due to the trauma...but it would still exist, right.

That post was a mess, sorry.

By Protagonist at Jun 25, 2003, 10:52 AM | 0

Rastus, how many times have we posted so very close in time to each other, and with you typing ':knob:'? ;)

Mystical forces are at work here.

By Protagonist at Jun 25, 2003, 10:55 AM | 0

Sometimes I just can't be bothered to put the effort into replying to a post… so I leave a :knob: marker. It means I disagree with said post, said poster is a knob, I may return to expand on my reasons for said poster being a knob later...

In this case you pretty much covered what I was thinking anyhow, albeit in a far more agreeable manner than I would have.

Someone needs to tweak the :knob: emoticon so I can have a converse :word!: emoticon... then I too can be agreeble... and concise!

By TAFKAR at Jun 25, 2003, 11:06 AM | 0

this is my non-lizard brain speaking, but I really really like the whole dream within� a real world within a moo within� er� wait. too far.

but protag has a point, NewbieBob �dies� and wakes up, knowing nothing, EstablishedBob could have suffered some real losses or at least �know- NewbieBob.
so�

does Johnny mean that NewbieBob�s world and EstablishedBob�s world would be seperate? ie. � here we go back to� *cough* jotun's big gay als newbie -dreamland- island. (now there's a mouthfull. BiGANDI!)
which could work on a time limit of a maximum 1 week stay (like in the coffins) or when you die, whichever comes first� (maybe the 1st 4 times they log on or something) learning how to interact with a set of NPC�s, OOC hints and messages about emotes/commands/etc etc and then you �die� no matter what, waking up with the char you created but this time in the �real� moo world� (oh my) with the last appropriate OOC explanations before the newbie is unleashed on us all.

it would still rely on the player to know that all previous �city experience� is void. just as it is when creating a new char after having played one before �

it�s -very- interesting but is it useful? and is it possible without a decent GM or 'volunteer' or two to oversee it? is any newbie "training" or help possible without nice GMs/admins/players who are willing to take a few moments to lead someone by the hand or beat them with a stick. no. as interesting/fun as it could be, wouldn't any newbie training simply be an expanded, hands-on help file?
but is that so bad if the new player gets hands-on experiance while learning the ropes? why do new players get frustrated in the first place? i'll stop sking questions now and go think about the answers.

discussing things doesn�t mean they are being/going to be/ have a snowballs chance in hell of ever being implemented. this is the ideas area, maybe something in this thread will spark off an idea for something completely different somewhere else. simply repeating �we need more GM�s� isn�t going to make more GM�s appear. it's a detail, an important detail, but a detail non the less. but wouldn�t that be nice…

(Edited by Bias at 12:30 pm on June 25, 2003)

By Bias at Jun 25, 2003, 12:28 PM | 0

Totally Bias, that's why I tried to make other hypothetical comments allong with hammering the 'we need more GMs' point a few times ;)

However, this is a discussion and some may disagree. Some may find code more important….some may think that the lack of GMs is not the main cause of the player count dropping, and some may think that a newbie island would work better than having more GMs to help them....

I'm repeating my point as I havn't really received explicit agreement or disagreement, and maybe if we all voice the need for more GMs above everything else, the current GMs might focus on that.
It's an investment that could be very profitable for SD, so it might be a good idea.

I hope that that doesn't sound mean, I don't intend it to in any way.
:)
'Tis a pretty good discussion.

By Protagonist at Jun 25, 2003, 12:48 PM | 0

Be forewarned, this is slightly off-topic, but why not make a newbie training area, make it IC, and integrate it into chargen?

Anyone here ever seen the Terry Gilliam film 'Brazil'? Think along the lines of that bureaucracy, only a tad less extreme….

Have the new character run around getting forms from NPCs, and filling them out would be the bits of chargen - it'd introduce said player to the system, be pretty quick for an older player to complete because they already know all the commands, and it'd teach newbies not to attack NPCs put of the blue (as death within the immigration centre COULD be a dream).

:paranoid:

By Murphy at Jun 25, 2003, 7:24 PM | 0

You know, I really like that.

By Johnny at Jun 25, 2003, 7:41 PM | 0

I got to see Brazil at the Nuart theater about 6 months ago or so for I think the third time, although I don't seem to remember the second one very well.

Very interesting movie.

It reminded me of Logan's Run.

Oh yeah. And for some reason, it reminded me of Persilla, Queen of the Desert.

Don't ask. Someone made me watch it in the same night. Now I can't watch LR without remembering it.

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 7:55 pm on June 25, 2003)

By Kevlar at Jun 25, 2003, 7:48 PM | 0

Quote: from TAFKAR on 2:06 pm on June 25, 2003[br] then I too can be agreeble… and concise!

Ras, although you can be agreeable, if you started taking this 'concise' thing too seriously, it would be a great loss to the world.

Already, the lack of capitalized expletives in your posts upsets me.

By Murphy at Jun 25, 2003, 7:50 PM | 0

*gasps loudly*

Agreeing with Murphy twice in the same year?

I must be getting soft.

Initially, I didn't like the newbie island thing, but something themely along the lines of what Murph proposes does make a lot of sense, especially if made part of the 'immigration process'.

I've seen noobs -repeatedly- just go attack anything that moves, or doesn't, for absolutely no reason, even after I've told them it's not a good idea. �I've seen them igrore oppertunities to RP, and do other things that are frowned upon.

Making them do a beauracratic run around where they are given information by NPCs, billboard ads, TV commercials or whatever themely vehicles are available about what is -expected- of them in terms of actions, behavior, RP would be valuable. �At the very least, it would eliminate the twinky actions of the newest of the new.

Appropriate interactions with NPCs (a news flash about the gangers and how violent they are, as well as some interviews with other people)
Appropriate actions when injured.
Appropriate actions with sleepers. (don't sit there and spam picking thier pockets out in the middle of a busy street)
The differences between Red, Gold, Green and Blue (a virtual tour)
A short segment showing someone trying to pick a pocket/mug someone in a crowd on Gold and immediately getting arrested.

And more.

Orientation by quikterm or some method that would require they provide some sort of input (change the TV channel) that would force them to do something so they can't just easily scroll past the information.

I don't think it'd be the be-all, end-all but it would help.

Earlier in the thread, someone had proposed the idea of extending the newbie immunity.

What if a player's first character -only- was completely immune from death, as well as attacking, picking pockets … and could only be played for a maximum time of say, 6 months. �The player (whose history would be optional, but still able to run for Bruce, think of it as a step between a guest and a regular player, a training player? �A probationary period?) would have to apply to a a GM or admin in order to 'graduate' to a regular character. �At which time, either that character would be made normal or a new char created where a history and such would be required. �The GM would look at how the player is playing, and approve, or deny with comments on what is needed to be demonstrated in order to graduate.

Where either of these should go on 'the list' if approved, isn't for me to say, but my personal feeling is that a few bits of cyberware should be released and in play as well as matrix decks.

Give a player some raw materials, and we'll make something out of it ... ;)

By Max at Jun 26, 2003, 6:10 AM | 0

as anyone who've read this knows I'm opposed to a newbie island

hower if it was handled IC, let me say that again IC the way murph and max suggested that would be nice.

the trick is, in my opinion to train the newbies without alienating them from everyone else thereby making it harder for them to make friends early.

By Jotun at Jun 26, 2003, 9:06 AM | 0

I'll finally present my opinion on this. I really just don't think it's necessary. The more stuff like this we implement, the more we come across as an "uptight" community.

We're really strict about RP here, which is great and is absolutely one of the best things about it, that separates us from so many other M**s. But at the same time, it's the kind of experience that will deter a lot of incoming players. The more rigamarole you have to go through before you can just get in and play, the less likely you will be to stick around.

Yes, there are some newbies who would benefit from this, namely the ones who would suck and have little chance of ever improving. Maybe this would whip them into shape. But on the other hand, we do get new players with lots of experience, who are very intelligent people. This kind of player is a great asset to the game, and having something like this implemented would turn off that sort of person. Why? Because someone like that often doesn't have the patience or the interest in going through "training" that they don't need.

Then there are people that start out terribly, but they actually do get better. There have been several recent examples of this. People like that are going to get sick of any "training" they're going through. I think that in general, no matter what you call this "training phase" it will do more harm than good, and really just isn't necessary. Maybe it's a pain in our asses to have to deal with newbies who don't get it, but time heals that problem. They either learn or they quit. This place either appeals to someone or doesn't. I knew I would stay here for a long time within an hour of logging on, and it was my first MOO. I had no idea about the commands, but I loved it so I wanted to learn. That's what you need in a player in order for them to stay.

I say we just focus on making it a place where people will get caught hook, line, and sinker and never leave! mwahahaha. Ok… that's my stance on it.

I also think designing such a thing would take a lot of work and there are many more useful things that could be done. (after all, this game doesn't even need players to be worked on)

By Athena at Jun 27, 2003, 10:25 AM | 0

-	hex	10m
-	BlackSoul	23s
-	PsycoticCone	1m
-	Coolguydude	1s
-	Rillem	51s	Make it personal.
a	Mench	5m	Doing a bit of everything.
-	Wulf	21m
-	Crooknose	39m
-	whatislove	1h	get big
-	Vanashis	3s
-	Sivartas	57m
-	Fay	36m
-	Raven	3h	I lost myself, in the dark charade.
-	zxq	43m	Tools: https://ansicolortool.neocities.org
-	Yizhi	3m
And 31 more hiding and/or disguised

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