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And 23 more hiding and/or disguised

Make Car Theft Attempts Cost
Costs Chy == Being More Selective

In addition to the one time purchase item needed to steal cars, I propose that you have to purchase one time use items that are used in conjunction with this.

Say there are three levels of security system (this is not true, just an example). They are Basic, Mid and Hard. And there are one or two tasks in stealing a vehicle, break-in and hotwire. If this where the case it would just take a few items to be added to the game. The items don't have to do anything but have a description, have dimension and weight, and have value. Nothing fancy.

For break-in there could be something like the Blandford Break-in Kit (5000c), the Midtronic Break-In Kit (10000c) and the Helios Break-In Kit (15000c). Hotwiring could have something like the Blankline Hotwire Kit (5000c), Metrogone Hotwire Kit (10000c) and the Heavyspark Hotwire Kit (15000c). Only sold at shady places.

If you want to steal a car with a Mid Security System you need to use your one time purchase item and a Midtronic Break-In Kit (or better) to open the doors. Then you need to use your one time purchase item and a Metrogone Hotwire Kit (or better) to get it started. Then go. The kits are used up by the attempt - succeed or fail. If your Kit's not good enough for the job, it's used up and you fail.

Motorcycles would be cheaper to steal than cars and I think that's a good thing. All the skill checks can be left alone. It just goes from, "Did you roll high enough?" to "Do you have a good enough kit and did you roll high enough?". It also means that you no longer have Bob sitting at a car trying the commands 27 times until they get lucky. Unless they want to fork over a LOT of chyen that is.

The exact costs would need to be determined by people who knew the average value of cars better. But the goal here for me would to force a car thief to be more discerning about what they even try to steel. It would also allow players to better protect their vehicles as making the cost of theft prohibitive is a valid tactic. It might also push car thieves to focus on more high end targets if they really want the best cost to reward ratios and not just steal every single thing they see sitting about.

Stealing cars can be very expensive already, due to a number of IC reasons I can't really go into here. Just as a FYI- this is (sort of) already a thing.
Maybe just make vehicle system vests run out of supplies through use sort of like the gun cleaning toolbelt does?
I like this. More dynamic than the current system, not simply a skillcheck, and adds in the desired extended time element that other people have requested.
I don't think this is necessary at all. Vehicle theft already costs for all parties involved and does involve a significant amount of risk if you don't plan out what you're doing and execute that plan extremely well. There is a chy cost involved as well without adding items like these.
The chy cost is all frontloaded and not per interaction. Unless you use some optional items to make things easier, it's one and done.
Untrue for reason I can't get into here.
Untrue for reasons I can't get into here.
For the act itself, one and done.

Aftermath? Sure, it'll cost. But that's only if you want the FULL PACKAGE.

No, this is just very much untrue overall. Even the idea itself seems to be assuming that people are running around stealing vehicles at very low risk, low cost and with total impunity. If you want to get even anywhere near impunity you need to do things that will cost far more than just initial equipment. Let's also not forget that the skill investment is nothing insignificant either.

"The chy cost is all frontloaded and not per interaction. Unless you use some optional items to make things easier, it's one and done."

You're assuming these optional items are necessary then.

Yes, UE investment is needed... But you only need one item.

I was just about to say this, regarding the skill investment.

It already takes quite a good time investment to steal cars. If you want them to have to steal a car in a single attempt, then you're going to basically lock mechanic gameplay to being a veteran-only career. Which seems pretty sub-optimal.

The whole process costs chy unless your goal is to just hotwire a vehicle and do nothing with it. And this is assuming you're able to just break into the vehicle without any complications. Last I'm going to say here though. If staff has a problem with the system they'll fix it.

"For the act itself, one and done.

Aftermath? Sure, it'll cost. But that's only if you want the FULL PACKAGE."

You'd be amazed how much this has been done in the history of the game and how many people didn't go the full mile for long long periods of time. You can still fuck someone with the first part. After? Optional.

This is a thread about the cost of -stealing- a vehicle.

What you do with it afterwards is your choice.

The premise of this idea is flawed.

It's like complaining that drug labs just print money. View from 10.000 feet says yes. Actually getting experience doing said thing says no, no, no.

Stealing cars is expensive, and dangerous. And it seems to be working just fine the way it is right now, which is to say, requiring heavy staff involvement.

Nobody's just boosting 3 cars a week and printing millions of chyen off.

Stealing vehicles is too easy. Period.
I get the skill investment part. However, there still needs to be incentive for people to not just take all the cars just because they managed to get the skill levels where they needed to be. A lot of that incentive right now is staff driven. The idea here is to make the inventive to be selective be less reliant on staff micromanagement.

Staff doesn't need to have NPCs step in when someone starts stealing cars like mad if they don't steal cars like mad in the first place. I would expect that if such a mechanic as I or JMo described where put into place the costs would be balanced by staff and that costs at other points along the process would also be considered and maybe adjusted.

I do think that the cost of stealing a car should, on occasion, straight up make the car not worth stealing if your only motivations is making flash. But this would require investment on the owner's end.

I don't really understand why OP suggested a change, I am going to assume he feels the current way things are make it for it to be too easy to steal cars.

I feel this is partly true, some car thieves might have tools that make it more convenient to do their jobs.

You can try to protect your rides as best as you can by upgrading it, in order to try to prevent theft. But even then, you might still get your ride stolen. Maybe park it somewhere safer?

Being able to afford your own ride, feels a bit like a milestone in this game but just like any other thing, it can be can lose it a lot faster than you got it.

I feel there is a degree of impunity and it occurs not necessarily because of something mechanical, but as something pertaining to theme and/or factions.

What Grey0 suggested is too complicated.

My understanding is that drug labs have the risk of blowing up under certain circumstances.

If the vehicle theft tool could fail / be rendered unusable along similar lines that would go a long way towards creating the sort of balance that a lot of people seem to be asking for these last couple of days.

At the risk of being redundant, I think that too many people who aren't actually stealing vehicles are hopping on BgBB and making it seem like stealing vehicles is a walk in the park with zero risk. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are a lot of hoops to jump through to fully steal a vehicle and transfer the ownership from one character to another.

My perception is that the ability to steal vehicles without staff interaction is new, and people are having knee jerk responses. The responses are the normal human reaction to suddenly having to protect and "worry" about something that was previously not a concern. Once current reality has been this way for a year or two and people have made it second nature to mitigate the risks, there will be very little discussion about it.

From my perspective, I see the risk of having a vehicle stolen akin to the risk of walking down the street in Red as a non-combat focused character. It's only a "problem" until the player learns how to navigate the systems and dynamics involved.

Nobody seems to complain that someone can type 'attack X' and send a character to Genetek. I'm not quite sure what all the hang wringing and fear is over a character having to make literally half a dozen plus skill checks, AND navigate relationships with other characters, to steal a vehicle. I could be wrong, but as far as I know there are ZERO characters in the game right now who have the skills, tools and facilities to steal a vehicle by themselves. It's an ecosystem.

Last week my character lost over 100K worth of augmentations and gear. Nobody batted an eyelash. But someone runs the risk of losing a 40K motorcycle and... Whhaaaaaaaa. It's not fair. The game is imbalanced. Boo hoo hoo.

I <3 you all, but take a step out of your own self interest for a second and look at the bigger picture here.

I support this idea. Stealing cars is mega easy and has almost no consequences as long as you're stealing cars nobody owns (which is more than half of what's sitting around). There are just free cars everywhere from people retiring their characters and people are treating them like freebies that you can steal and give away/sell for cheap, which is certainly off theme and makes vehicle ownership pretty unspecial for Mixers.

I don't think everyone should have infinite free cars and any kind of cost would help if we're going to carry on as we have been.

There is a literal mountain full of misinformation in this thread ranging from totally oblivious to downright ignorant.

Please stop putting this idea out there that stealing cars is printing chyen. It couldn't be further from the truth, and the changes made to require staff involvement in car theft happened literally years ago. It's beyond old news at this point. The simple fact of the matter is, that since you cannot change license numbers for any reason now, that absolutely every car stolen has full opportunity for recourse. Due diligence is needed on the behalf of the victims. As for abandoned vehicles, staff also tend to bust chops on those, as well.


Staff is involved in multiple spots along the line from case car -> steal car -> sell car -> transfer ownership. Much moreso if we're talking about car theft outside of red.

Much like running around topside murdering people requires staff approval, so does multiple areas in the car theft process.

Staling vehicles requires a huge investment of time, UE, and chy. There is already both a chy cost per vehicle stolen, and a social cost as well.

knowing how to do something well enough that it looks easy doesn't necessarily mean it is. Also, car theft RP has a huge propensity for involving literally dozens of player characters in a plot that can span a week or more. It's really good and dramatic RP opportunity.

Making it harder/more expensive to do will effectively kill off the entire process, as the profit margin on the vehicles that support a car thief's daily operations would disappear.

This, taken also in the context of permanent license plates means that this is already a very high risk endeavor, and while there is most assuredly the possibility of the 'one big score', that 'one big score' is so rare, that in the average of a year, you're managing to cover your yearly expenses.

Really need to add something here. What always bugs me when someone brings up how easy car theft seems to be is the fact that you can prevent the theft of a vehicle by leaving it in safe places that are available both topside and in the mix. If you're leaving fifty kay on the street when you don't have to then that's on you.

I feel like a large part of the problem is players not taking proper preventative measures then crying foul. And there have also been recent IC updates to make things even harder on thieves, which could easily be found out if five minutes is taken to ask about them.

First off I will say if this goes too far, then delete this please staff. But I feel it's necessary.

So let's pull back the curtain a bit. Without going into specifics.

I've been dinged and dragged into hour long conversations with xhelp about casing cars wrong. These were ultimately instructional. And have helped me portray my character better.

I've seen people dinged for stealing the wrong car. Or stealing a car with the wrong methods. These were ultimately a good thing, as they helped grow and establish players and couch them on the proper ways to do things.

I've nearly died ICly several times from characters thinking I was casing their rides, or while casing rides. This was a fun thing. I like conflict, and these were some of the tenser scenes I've been in.

I've been involved now in multiple multiweek plots that emerged from car theft. Some mostly player driven, others staff and players coming together and generating consequences for a thief. A lot of it happening under the radar. This is cool, this is good. I like this. GM's are doing a good job here.

I have been involved or seen car theft's occur at every step of the way. From planning, to reset, to sale, to longer term outcomes.

I say that, because I feel like that should establish a base of experience with the matter, so that when I state this next bit, one will understand I'm not talking out my ass.

There is a significant operating cost to stealing a car. In equipment, in labor, and in other less obvious things. This ranges from the absurdly expensive and possibly life threatening if you do it wrong. Too the very rare ghost in the night making off with cars Gone in 60 Seconds style big score, again extremely extremely rarely. Those who do car theft face significant IC consequences both from players in the form of Enforcer archetypes, TERRA, Judges and from other places.

The measures currently in place are sufficient to allow response post facto. And adding additional costs(Beyond what already exist which are significant in both UE and Chyen,) would kill the archetype as a whole, or restrict it to the place of purely veteran characters. As well, the systems as they are currently in place, encourage multiple party RP and drag people into fun plots.

Finally, the characters I've seen involved in car theft currently are typically ones that have already spent 5-6 months mostly focused on this task, experimenting, and ICly discovering how to do this properly. They've spent half a year honing their craft, RPing, getting allies, fielding connections, vetting breakers, hiring security, getting things cleared with GM's and fixed in certain places, so that it can seem easy from the outside. But it is ultimately not. And new complications arise literally every theft that keep the RP interesting and fresh. And that is something that should be encouraged, and is something I feel staff are doing a wonderful job of.

TL;dr, if it looks easy, that's because the people doing it are skilled and practiced at it. It's not easy. There's a whole lot of reasons up there I'm not going to summarize down here. But it's not too easy, or too inexpensive. I'd say personally it's on the borders of not profitable in the long run.

Also ultimately and speaking a bit more technically on a game design standpoint, car theft is a transfer of wealth, not a generation of wealth, and there is a distinct degradation in value if the thieves let an alarm go off. There's also a myriad of ways to counter theft of your vehicle that you could probably find out about if you asked ICly to people who might know about securing things.

I've removed the previous post which openly details IC and OOC experiences without any concern for that being very much not cool.

Do not do this. If you can not control yourself when having a discussion of ideas oh the boards, do not be on the boards.

Thanks @Dreamer.

I didn't want to be the BgBB police, but I had the exact same reaction when I read it. (There was way too much IC information in it.)


I agree with what you are saying about being able to mitigate the risks.

That is what I alluded to in one of my previous posts. I think a lot of what we are seeing is people reacting to a new dynamic. Once players understand the ways to mitigate vehicle theft with the same ease that they mitigate other common risks in Red, there will be less outcry and hand wringing over it.