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Newbie Retention

I have noticed people talking about how people check in to play SD but don't seem to stick around.  I have a couple of Ideas that might help.  Take them with a grain of salt, because I am pretty much a newbie here to.

1)  Revamp the Chargen process to make it a little more user friendly.
 
 a) Have a help system that is accessible at any time.

 b) Be able to backup in the process at anytime until the character is finished.  (I.E. If I just chose my stats and now I am on skills, I should be able to go back and redistribute my stats.)

 c) List the 7 stats, their definitions and how they effect skills and the game in general.  Possibly list word descriptions from lowest to highest. see my other post More Stat/Skill info.

 d) List the skills, definitions, and how they are used in the game.  Please note any skill that is not fully supported in the game. Because if a newbie dumps half of his/her skill points into something like Aerotech and finds out that skill isn't immediatly useful, They are not going to stick around.

 e) Have the history system accessible while in chargen.  The player might not have to complete the history to enter, but at least they will understand how important the  history is to the game.

 f) Have a brief virtual tour of the city, including how to interact with Judges, Shopkeepers and maybe even VR combat to let the newbies realize that this is NOT Happy fluffy bunny land and regardless of how hot shit they think they are, even the rats here can kill them.

2) Give the newbie 1 free clone as part of the chargen procedure.  Explain to them that they are responsible for updating the clone, and if they don't update they will wake up just the way they are now. (The corps might even support this because the money isn't made on the clone itself but on the backups.)

3) Give the newbie a free mag-lev pass for 1 or 2 weeks.  This would up the exploration possibilities 3 fold.  And it would also give them more RP opportunities.

4) Modify both the shopkeeper and Market systems so that examine is available for the Item you are about to buy.  If they can look at the commands available it will help them decide if they can actually use the item and if they really want to buy it.  Trust me, this is a big deal.

5) Increase the pre-history job possiblities.  I know that you want to keep the pressure on to get the histories in and verified as soon as possible, but not being able to work because you are waiting for GM approval is very frustrating.  If SHI and Acme really can't be made available for characters just in the dome, then how about something like Trashman for WCS. Picking up dead bodies off the street, hopefully getting to them before they putrify, and not catching any fun diseases.  Or have the Clothing depot buy back clothing by the pound.  Load up a large scale with clothes and press a button. 1 or 2 chyen a pound comes out of the bottom and somebody comes and picks up the clothes to restock them on the tables.

okay that is my 2 chyen.  any other Ideas?

Simply giving handouts and such will not fix newbie retention, and may even prove to attract more of "the wrong crowd".
Seriously. I think learning the hard way tunes player into much more diabolical CP creatures. Gritty, gritty mixers. Self-righteus corpies. Power-hungry Jakes…Oh MY!
While doing things the hard way is good in the long run, not everything he mentioned was to 'make the game easier for the character' alot of it was to make the game easier to the PLAYER.  His ideas about chargen and the stat/skill system have merit in my mind.

Also, there is a help system that is availible all the time.. The xhelp, to talk to an admin and the just plain 'help' which allows you to browse through all the current help files that are availible.

I don't think giving the newbies a free mag-lev pass, or clone, is such a great idea.  We already have characters that come out of chargen and think this is rampage moo and just attack the first person they see, and usualy die.  Then when the create a new character they are more cautious.

I agree a VR tour of the city for starting would be a good idea.  It would aquaint the players with the MOO a bit more before just dumping them in, and maybe they wouldn't feel as helpless.

As for a character working without a history, the whole idea of a history is that it gives the admin and the player an idea of where they want to go with their character.  The time you spend in the game before you submit a history is, (this is what my opinion is) best spent figuring out where you think your character will fit into the dome, and writing a history to mimic that.

Okay, Now it gets interesting. (I just love debate.)  For the most part Nemisis is correct.  I was going for easier play, what I call "immersion", instead of an easier game, which I call "total suckfest."

    First Biohazard-What it the "wrong crowd"? Can you be specific?  Are we talking about the ones who think it is a rampage moo and end up getting there asses kicked?  If somebody loggs in for the distict purpose of killing something and is absolutely clueless about their abilities, Yep that's what you get.  They hit the learning curve at a high speed and wipe out.  And as Nem says, they come back much more wary, but they come back.   My question is, is it the bloodthirstyness you object to or the utter gormlessness.   We can deal with the second by making the game easier to understand, not just the rules but the importance of the social interactions.  And if it is the bloodthirstyness you object to, wake up and smell the soycaf.  To me CP means that there are people out there who are bloodthirsty maniacs, and they will kill you for just lying in the street.  I have killed sleeping players for fucking pocket change for god's sake. (Maybe my suggetion for 1 free clone is guilt, I don't know.)  That is why you are always looking over your shoulder and finding a safe place to sleep every night.  Because there is that chance of dying.

    Next Reefer- Learning the hard way makes you a more diabolical CP creature? Really?  How so? And do you mean the hard way as a charater or as a player.  I have found GMing tabletop games, the quicker the player figures out how to do things, the quicker you get down to RP and having fun.  Stuff like haveing access to backround information about objects in the game would help that.

   Finally Nemisis- Thank you for noticing my general intent. I do appreciate that. But I will argue a few points.  While xhelp maybe available during character generation, I didn't see it, and I don't think most newbies would use it anyway.  And an automated help system would also free up GM time and also be in place when nobody is listening. (I have had that happen. xhelp? Listening: Nothing.)

I would discuss some of the other things you brought up, but right now I need to pay a guy a large amount of money to stick a drill in my face.(Root cannals are so fun.)

    Okay, I am back.  They didn't actully give me a root canal today, I was too swollen.  Instead they put a hole in my head to get the puss out and gave me a bunch of drugs to hold me over untill monday.  (and as you can tell it has done wonders for my disposition and spelling.)

    Now, where was I?  Ah, Yes, defending my ideas regarding free clones, mag-lev passes and early employment. And I think I have some valid reasons.  But before I do that, I want to explore why people game online.  
    An article I read a while back broke online gamers into four basic catagories.  Socials, Explorers, Builders and Killers.  Socials are in it for the social interaction, talking to people, posing, ic gossip.  Explorers are in it for the adventure of finding shit out.  They want to find out what's on the other side of that door, tunnel, dome or whatever.  They also try to use things in different combonations to find out what they do.  Sometimes they break shit, but for the most part they are great at finding bugs.  Builders build. Not just buildings or even things, but guilds, gangs or even kingdoms.  It's not just the goal of having something they have created, but the actual act of creation that drives them. For the most part I think Builders are rare.  And of course Killers, who just want to kill shit or steal stuff.  If there are no monsters around to kill or steal from AND if you look like easy prey, they will try to steal from or kill you.
    Of course the tricky bit is finding a balance.  I have ran into a few builders down on red, and because of them I had some great RP.  But for the most part I think we have Socials and Killers.  Socials stand around, and are good for a little RP.  Killers are very CP and can be used for some good RP.  What I don't see much of are the explorers, which bums me out because I am one.  And I honestly think that the majority of the people in the street are explorers who got stuck, bored and logged off never to return.
    Okay, great.  WTF does that have to do with free clones, mag-lev passes and early jobs?  Marketing.  If you know who you are selling to, you can tailor the package you are selling.  
    The First clone free will help retain the Explorers and the Killers.  If they screw up, They don't have to compleatley redo a character.  Saves them time and effort but they still learn the lesson. This would help retention and is also in the spirit of the game. (You get ONE free pass kid, after that you're toast.)  Socials and Builders won't benifit as much, but they also won't be so pissed when their character gets killed because they have low combat skills.
    The mag-lev passes are mostly for the Explorers.  Maybe I am biased, but I really wanted to see other parts of the dome before I finished my history.  I think I could have done a little better.  Maybe we could skip the passes if there was a VR tour of the dome.
    Early jobs are for all the newbies.  Why? to give them something to do while they figure out who they want to be in this world.  To give them something to do until they have a chance to RP.  With low census and Gms trying to fix bugs most of the time, newbies don't get that much chance to RP.  A job like Trashman would teach them the basics of object manipulation and what is where on red.  And SHI could be a chance to catch up on a lot of reading, and make a history.  Basicly it is hard to make or find a niche if you don't know how things work or where things are.  When I wrote my history, I wanted to be a corpie.  I wanted to climb up the ladder from the bottom and end up  running shit.  Well, shit happens and dreams die.  Right now I am a 2-chyen hustler, running crates to survive.
    You know what, forget all of my other suggestions.  The way to boost Newbie Retention would require two Fixes.  Fix the registration for the bitch board and Fix the registration for the NLM grid.  Not being able to speak up in the community makes people feel excluded.  And not being able to access the Grid leaves the player in the dark about a lot of info.  And of course it is another way to explore the wonderful world of SD.

My 2 chyen.  anybody else want to ante up?

As far as I know, the board has never had open registration.  I think an Admin (See: Johnny) has to set up the account for you.  I could be wrong, but thats how I got my account.  I think this is to prevent people who are banned from posting/the game, as well as spammers.  I might be wrong, dunno.

As for the GRID, I think thats still broken because it takes a good amount of work to fix and the people that know how to fix it are busy with RL stuff (See: Job), so it'll be fixed when they can put aside the time.

I haven't gone through char-gen in a long ass time, so I can't comment on it, because I don't remember it.  I do know that it took me four or five characters to get one that didn't get killed.  Then when he died after a month or two, I quit for six or seven months, then came back.  

I agree, that it is tough to pick out a niche or even understand the world enough to write a history without having been in the game and seeing what IC work there is out there.  I have to say though, the time-line we have now is amazing for backround info.  It was -much- smaller.. maybe only a page when I first signed up and alot of effort has gone into it since then.

I do think that char-gen should let you know what skills are not supported ICly before letting you put UE into them, since that can seem like a waste.

More automated jobs are definitely a good idea.  Jobs that are geared more toward the exploration side of things, you make some money, and you learn the city a bit better in the proccess.  Exploring is alot of fun, and is a great thing to do in between RP.

I'm still iffy about the whole automated jobs before you have a history thing.  I'm not sure how well it would work out.  Yes, SHI is a great place to read the help files, and to write a history, but you can learn alot just from being out in the game..  

I have to say I spent hours sitting at SHI when I first started, reading the help files, the bitch board, and going over my history.  Perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow new characters to work at SHI before having a history..

So. I've been playing for a year now, so you understand where I'm coming from.

Your history is not set in stone (heh). You can rewrite and rewrite and edit and rewrite and change the whole vibe of the thing (while retaining the same facts, o'course), and edit and change and create a different slant to match your character's outlook.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is about histories, but, y'know, that could just be me and the fact that when I started playing I had a pretty good idea of what my character was, where she was from, and why she did things the way she did. And then I got to do it again with my second character when the first was eaten by a rat (…it was a big rat, okay?).

As Nemi says, the timeline is awesome. Also, the admins are awesome. Write something out veryvery barebones with some basic information about what gave your character the kind of personality they have - and gloss a little over the exact skills and experience at this stage. If it gets rejected - big deal. Read the notes that are given to you and take them on board. xhelp if you need to, for some further assistance and ideas.

Chances are, your first character will die. It's a sad thing, but it's a part of life in Withmore. You learn, you deal, and you come back with a character a bit more refined, and maybe one that doesn't go wallowing in the sewers with an unfamiliar weapon so often (hello, IC line…).

Hell, I think I was lucky when I first signed in, I had not one, but two admin holding my hand through chargen and suggesting things and basically telling me I was going about the whole thing all wrong. Perhaps some automated version of this would be helpful... "Don't spread your skillbase too thin. If you specialise in (x) and (y), your character can find work as a (z)."

There is help on stats and skills, I can't remember if it's as simple as "help stats" and "help skills" while during chargen, but it's available while logged on as a guest, at least (and I'm fairly sure still accessible via chargen).

Personally, I cringe at the idea of free clones and maglev passes, if only because they are faaaaairly unnecessary from my perspective. You say you want to explore? My god, it took me forever to get my character's ass up off RED, and she's not really the mixer type… and she wasn't sitting around in one place for terribly long either, really. There are so many places on RED to go wander around in… I know I haven't seen everything yet, with two characters.

And if you give them free clones, they don't have quite as much incentive to keep going and looking for work / chyen. Again, it took me forever to get a clone, primarily because she was more interested in pretty clothes than having life insurance.

Plus: Why the hell would the corpies want new immigrants running around anywhere other than in the trash of RED?! Ew, stinky! Yuck! *spits* …god knows, they hardly want them up there when they're employed :)
(Similarly, no IC VR tour of the dome because you are on RED for a reason - you don't deserve to be (or see) anywhere else. OOC VR tour perhaps, maybe that's something that could be tied in to Sam_Guest?)

Oh! This thread contains a big huge discussion about newbies and playing and all sorts of things (it's been a while since I read it verbatim). It includes a discussion about a new user guide.

The best advice I can give?
Read everything - EVERYTHING - you can find, both on the website (esp the BgBB!) and in the help files. It explains soooooo very much and also gives you a bit of an insight into the people that are playing, as well as the game structure / concept / whatever.

I agree with most of what uh.. Mensaboy has to say.

I haven't been on in the past few weeks because I'm busy, but right now I'm currently the only one in the game…

I have two main things to say:

(1) Even people who are well intentioned and have literally put hours and hours into trying to get ahead (and I remember the hourse I spent at SHI and doing deliveries at first too) will have to expect disappointment. Typing 'work' every few minutes is retarded.

SHI sucks but I remember meeting people there and making contacts. I may have met one person for every say THREE-FIVE hours I sat there and typed 'work'. The people who are willing to  do that are exceptional, usually mentally unstable, or extremely bored.

But for want of anything better I say, SHI is good.

Deliveries I don't like personally, I think the idea is stupid for people to be delivering things like um.. cans of spraypaint in crates from Gold to Red sector ON FOOT and by hand in a society that has made huge advances in NANOTECH not to mention relatively routine SPACE TRAVEL. What would be more efficient and reliable would be for Withmore Wholsalers to have a delivery truck that makes daily rounds... right? Walmart's distributors don't send kids out on bicycles to deliver boxes of shaving razors.

Sure it's cheap labour, but it still would NEVER be used int he kind of society GOLD is supposed to be. I'm in favor of getting rid of Witmore Whole salers. No more Withmore Wholesalers = good thing. Not on Gold at least. If they were ONLY on Red I would understand.

My suggestion is to get a job as an Underpaid SLAVE in some illegal mining deposit run by the Mafia. That would be interesting. So Withmore Wholsalers sucks.


(2) It is hard to keep track of all the pieces of the game... all the nuances in commands... all the technicalities...

So I was very happy when Johnny updated 'examine me.'
That was vital, but it's still incomplete for some things.

One thing I have to warn of is STANDARDIZATION... like,every lock seems to require a different set of commands to operate. Ok, different locks, but these locks are essentially identical in how they function. I would approach it by inventing several different brands of lock of varying strength, etc. but then using the same exact lock in different places.


I don't know, basically, I'm worried about stuff getting two diverse, too eclectic, as stuff grows it's hard to keep track of everything.

-> Therefore, it's becomes increasingly hard to have a 'complete' guide that covers the whole aspect of the game.

Bbut in general the damn thing works it just needs loving.... alright.

Oh and in response to the actual post.

1) free clones for new players are not a good idea. because, why the hell anyone give a homeless bum a sophisticated piece of biotechnology for FREE? clone's are not for everybody.

2) mag-lev passes… what, for FREE too? this is not a SOCIALIST society. actually, it is the diametrical opposite.

3) jobs for newbies.. I can't remember, you need a history to work at SHI? that seems kind of dumb. SHI is kind of like a -late 21st century soup kitchen. why od they care who you are. the technology in use there is like, 19th century grade anyway.

4) yeah, people need to know that certain skills/things have absolutely no in-game functionality at present. i.e. cyberware, matrix, most of the sophisticated shit. even our damn taxis are broken.

5) Chienne, my first character surivved and did pretty well for himself. the learning curve is maybe somewhat severe, friends and enemies and what not.. but its good.

6) about 'exploring'.. if you had access to the Grid you could see a cute map that would help alleviate your curiousity. too bad at present. RED public isn't all that big, but there's still enough stuff of interest. I like big, labyrinthine maps though, personally.

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 11:59 am on Mar. 4, 2006)

Social Darwinism at work, chummers.

Live to die; only to live again. Its not about easy here, its not about being the best, there is no scoreboard, you're all going to die and the only thing you can do about is try to leave a dirty little stain where you used to be.

It sucks that sometimes things don't work out the way you want them too but its all about adaptation. Wannabe's learn to hustle, hustlers learn to kill, killers get tired of killing. The best things about SD is the fact that you can do anything you want, you just gotta deal with the repercussions. Sometimes as a newbie you gotta break out of the mold your skills & stats cast you and do what you gotta do to survive.

Exploring is my favorite aspect of the game and has been for a long time. For the most part, I like to think I know a reasonable amount about the dome…knowledge of any kind if dangerous. Especially considering the architecture of the dome. Death is a worthy price for curiosity.

Ya see I'm all about 'Social Darwinism' Reefer and I think the point here is not making the game EASIER but making the game easier to PLAY.

What you just said is a really typical pattern. Wannabe -> Hustler -> Killer -> Very good killer -> Tired….?? Tired? It can be boring cuz it's the same pattern that alot of characters follow. Thankfully there are other character patterns to follow, i.e. mechanic, tailor, electrician... but the market is extremely limited due to a small player base. As we all know, corpie's generally do nothing but eat, 'work' (idle?), and occasionally buy some shit.

Sure there is biz for a hustler. It's fucking really hard to make a lot of chyen as a hustler. Some of that is due to the nature of the game, some of it due to the lack of players and a limited market (i.e. basic staples are clothes, weapons, and drugs - not all that much else).

Now say you hustle for a while, you get experience and your stats improve. Now you can be a killer. You learned something about the 'politics' of the game, you learned to survive. You have options, you can choose to take risks for a big reward or play it safe and make your money gradually.

I agree, repercussions are good.

But look, Social Darwinism in the game, in RP, does not mean 'Social Darwinism' in the way the damn thing works. It has to be easy to play, it has to be reasonably easy to get INTERESTED in playing. When I first logged in as a guest over a year ago I thought the holo-ads and TVs and so on with the rolling adverts was very cool. It gave the game a DYNAMIC. The game has to have a DYNAMIC aspect, that requires coding, not just about player-to-player RP. I think we all agree here.

Actually, I don't even know what the fuck we?/I? are arguing about. This is all old shit.

THANK YOU GMs, CODERS, ETC. FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK . LET'S KEEP THE GAME ALIVE AS BEST WE CAN.


Okay, Thanks for the feedback.

  In defense of the free clone Idea.  Only one free clone,  and as part of the immigration (chargen) process.  We wouldn't be giving clones away left and right.  And the immigrant would be told FIRMLY that they are responsible for ALL updates.  If they don't want to lose all their memories, Skills and abilities they will update regularly.  They would also be told the expenses of updating and how much a clone would cost to replace.  They would also be informed of Clone sickness and how likelyhood increases with each copy.  The reasoning behind this is many fold.
   First ICly
Gentech knows it doesn't make as much money on the actual clones as it does on the updates. If you have a clone you are more likely to update it regularly, maybe once or twice a week, and get it replaced if you really have to use it.  Remember, until you are actually put into the vat, Genetech's only cost is the equipment it takes to store your genetic/cognitive information. And that is overwritten each time you update, so no duplication.  Each time you update, say from SenseNet/CD, they get a fee along with the recorded info.  So one free clone offered at immigration would do wonders for their bottom line.
    More OOCly,  
1) If you fuck up once you are not forced to go thru chargen immediatly and are less of a pain in the ass to the admins/gms.  I imagine it would lower Johnny and Iga's frustration level just a bit if they didn't have to look at character names/histories that are so similar to ones that just passed away, over and over again.

2)  It would tie in to Johnny's idea that after newbie combat, "you wake up and it was all a dream."

3) Oldbies wouldn't be so afraid to put a beat down on a newbie because "I might kill him and he probably doesn't have a clone."  They could play really tough MSFRs* and not worry about it. Either the newbie has a clone and will learn from the experience or they don't and they haven't learned yet and probably won't.

4) And finally,it is much easier and less daunting to get 1k together as a new character than it is 5k. I mean come on, we want it to be gritty, hard and CP but we also don't want to slam it in the newbies face. Again, a little slack via the game could let some of the older players be much harder and meaner to the newbies.

But I will definitely agree with BuddaBrand on one thing.
THANK YOU GMs, CODERS, ETC. FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK . LET'S KEEP THE GAME ALIVE AS BEST WE CAN.

*Motherstabbing Fatherrapers.

Woops, Forgot a few things in my ramblings.

On Mag-lev passes to newbie.  BuddaBrand and Chienne are right.  Not only is this NOT a socialist society, there is no way the corps would want an immigrant up on gold or green their first week and they definetly wouldn't want to pay for it.
However, if people could buy mag-lev passes for the week or the month, the corps might go for that.  Say 500 chyen for a weekly pass, 3000 for a monthly. might work.

On Histories and jobs. Histories are important, however I would change just three things about it.  

1) make the history menu available in chargen.

2) drop the requirements for a history for jobs on red, Keeping them for the ones on gold.

3) fixing the UE system so that you couldn't spend any UE until you had an approved history. Imagine having points sitting there calling your name, waiting for you to get off your ass and write a valid history. If you try to access the @assign UE system without a history you get back "Without a history, one can have no future."  Which of course follows Gamer rule #14.  "If the GM sounds like a fortune cookie, you have already lost the argument."

I sort of have to agree with BuddaBrand on Withmore Wholesalers.  The fact that they are on gold and are making hand deliviery to cordoba mallplex is not economicly sound. Of course right now, I like the work and  use it as often as I can, but we need to come up with a different courier system.  In my mind, most couriers would   take from one business and deliver to another, not just from a central wharhouse.  Supossidly Rastus was working on something involving Tickets before he got banned.  I don't know.

P.S.  Right now I am stuck in my cube at the New Rose Hotel.  I see the TV but My commands aren't being echoed and I can't seem to do anything.  Any Ideas?


(Edited by Mensaboy at 9:23 pm on Mar. 4, 2006)

Heh, sucks to be stuck in a cube…I don't know dude.

"A commercial drones on and on and on and on."

So, as a GM I have only this to say:

You are covered for TWO WEEKS as a newbie under 'protected' status. If you do something stupid like 'kill npc' or 'kill player' your newbie protection is lifted, and you typically die.

There are avenues to get the 5000c to get a clone in the game within 2 weeks of enterance of the game world. In fact, as soon as you have an approved history you can tap into a network of employment services and loans that get you enough money to get a clone within 48 hours of chargen or less.

The tools are there, and most of them are spelled out in @newbie. But, most newbies don't read @newbie, even when told to by chargen, login as a guest, and by staff.

Honestly, some times I think it is simpler for us to simply take over the characters and let the players sit passive as we roleplay for them.

Now, Mensaboy, ( funny name ) to answer some questions ( in reverse order ):

1) History Menu in Chargen - Yes, I agree.
2) History for job in game - we require a history because we are an RP enforced game, and feel that a history is key to roleplaying a character. Forcing players to build a history before fully interacting with the game is a tool we use to weed out twinks, mudders, non-rpers, and the lazy.
3) Fixing UE system - interesting idea.

Stuck in new rose : exam here, exam <exit name>, then try 'press open on <exit name>'.

Initial questions:

1a) Revamp Chargen - I've said this for years.
1b) Help System Accessibility - it is always available through many channels. The commands are - 1) examine <thing> 2) help <topic> 3) xhelp <sentance for admin>
1c) Stats and Skills are listed and defined - help stats, help skills
1f) Virtual Tour - in theory when everything is working ( damned server deaths! ) there are maps on the grid, ICly available, and tour guides in the game. In practice at the moment not so much.

3) Maglev pass - Maglev passes are planned, but why should a newbie get access to higher levels of the game, particularly a newbie who is a criminal. Why would we let pickpockets and thieves roam the wealthy corporate areas? This theme is about inequity, and unless your history warrents you starting on Gold, you are probably dirt poor with a criminal past and are most likely to get shot by a Judge on Gold just for smelling like the mix. Theme. Is. Everything.

4) You can inspect the items before sale to get an IC look at them. Command structures you can not see. If you are in doubt about the useage of a particular item there are two channels to pursue: 1) IC questions of the game world. 2) xhelp

5) Pre-history jobs: not gonna happen, for the reasons stated above. If I had my way players wouldn't get out of chargen without an approved history, but due to limitations of staff we can't hold people out of the game waiting for approval of histories.

There, done yammering. Cheers all. And rumors of my demise are greatly exagerated.


Thanks Iga,

It's nice to know that you guys are listening, even if you are very busy and that at least one of my ideas was interesting.

As for being stuck in the new rose cube.  it isn't a lack of knowalge that is keeping me here, I know how to get out. Its the fact that MY FUCKING COMMANDS ARE NOT WORKING AT ALL. Sorry, a little frustrated there.  

anything I type in doesn't get echoed and I get no response from the game.  However I know I am connected because I still see the TV. and I also get notices that there are posts to this forum.

Heh.  Maybe if I die, I will do chargen and log it.  remove important details and then post it to be disected and improved.

But I hope I don't.  I like my character.

P.S. if you want the story behind my BgBB handle just ask.

"  I have killed sleeping players for fucking pocket change for god's sake. (Maybe my suggetion for 1 free clone is guilt, I don't know.)  "


This is not reccomended.

As for being stuck, look in the Connection Issue's section of the board, there are posts of stories of people getting that same problem.  It usualy fixes itself after awhile, logging in and out a few times can also help.

As for needing to write a history before being allowed to assign you stats/skill, I don't think that will work.  Think of it this way, when the admin read your @history, they look at the stat/skill assignments you made and see if that is represented in your history.  

For example, you put most of your skill points into pistol, and in your history you make no mention of your character ever learning to shoot.  Then the admin can put some notes on your history about representing your stats and skills, and send it back to you.

I don't think he means the UE you get in chargen, but the UE you get while playing. So that UE just builds up but you don't get to assign it until you write your history.

Makes sense to me.

Perhaps players should be given the option?
Well, the point would be to force them to write their histories, so the option would take away the forcing part.
A little clarification on the UE "fix" I suggested.

The player would go thru chargen as normal, but they would have access to the history system AND they would be notified that to spend UE earned in the game they need to have a valid history.  

After they enter the game, they will earn UE normally and it will show up on @Stats.  And when they Type @assign ue they will get "Without a History, One can have no Future. Type @history for more information."
That way if they really don't want to bother to roleplay, their characters won't advance either.  And they will also see characters who do roleplay, and who are able to do some amazing shit because they can spend UE.

I think this would give the proper pressure to submit a history and get it approved in a timely manner.  This would also give the admins/gms  the OPTION of making some of the Red jobs available pre-history.  SHI is a boring job where you type work and read up on the bitch board and @newbie.  It is only a stop gap job, even a "21st century version of the soup kitchen."  So is Selling clothes back to the Clothing depot. Stuff like that would keep people busy while their history is being reviewed and hopefully approved.

I have some more to say on the subject, but it can wait.

I like the idea of selling clothes back to the clothing depot.  

You hand your pair of black pants to Salesperson.
Salesperson looks over the black pants for a moment before saying, "It'll do."
Salesperson hands you 2 chyen.

It would gives newbies a job AND cut down on MOO bloat.

City Services jobs tend to work out for "Explorers"
I've been meaning to reply to this post since it was first started, but I keep getting distracted. Iga has already answered a number of points and I concur. I've discussed a few of the points with Chaos (since it's mostly just been the two of us taking care of the game for the last little while.. everyone's busy lately) and we've thrown around some different ideas.

I'm definitely in favour of pointing out which skills are not yet being used in game. It's extremely frustrating to have something and have no use for it.. be it a skill, new object, new verb, etc. I haven't gone through Chargen in years, so I can't really comment on the level of ease or difficulty. As an introduction to the game, this is one place that should be the most user-friendly.

Iga's right about being able to get money quickly for a clone. @newbie is your friend, so is reading the boards and help files. I am working on another job or two (the selling back to the clothing depot was very close to one idea actually) for newbies. I'm still debating how these will work.. whether they would be just for newbies out of the gate (until their status or some other variable runs out) or available to all players. They will be low money jobs, but will require exploration and/or interaction to complete them.

Things have changed a lot in the last 7 years I've been on SD. At one point in time, exploration and scavenging was supposed to be a big thing in the mix. Players would have to search out different components and put together their own gear, weapons, food, etc. This is one reason why most of the weapons in the game are basic, everyday objects. Whether this would have made things more interesting for players (and give them a greater drive to leave the mix and go up to a corporate life) is another story. Anyway… keep the ideas and comments coming guys!

I was NOT [edit] even aware until I read it here some of the jobs available to newbies, like the stuff in Bansupuro or someone you can go talk to who buys random shit… this was actually better in some senses because had I known about it I probably wouldn't have made an effort to seek other players out for jobs. At the same time, I think jobs that are 'automated' like SHI make it possible for lone characters to survive.

Like some characters are just loners by nature, but they might be forced to be 'chatty' and bullshit there way into getting a job of some kind even if its not really true to the character. Even if its a shitty shitty living giving people the option to be independent to some degree is a good thing.. makes stuff interesting.

If you don't have some characters who are independent stuff gets boring. You have some central characters and a little atomic family that is constantly rotating around those central characters. When I was in the Mix sometimes I felt a sense of claustrophobia becuase it was the same faces/same shit practically every day. At the same time that's a vital part of the Mix which I guess is just the nature of the beast.

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 5:26 pm on Mar. 6, 2006)

   Yes, there are actually jobs other than SHI and Acme.  I needed to read about them in the red dispatch to learn of them. (Go Red Dispatch, YEA!) and maybe we don't need as many automated jobs to help newbies along if they can be made aware of all the jobs available now.
   As for the "job" of selling stuff back to the clothing depot, in my mind, most of it would be automated and you wouldn't get that much back.  I mean if you only get paid one chyen per Kilo of clothing you put on the scale, it will take a lot of clothes to make enought to buy even a soda at Bitchn' Chickn'.
  (***warning!*** Spitball alert. take with a handfull of Salt.)
   Another possible "job" is the verb Panhandle.  It would be basicly begging in the streets, but instead of bugging PC's it would be dealt with npcly.  It would be based on the Charisma Stat and would expire with the newbie protection stats. Could be abused but only for a short time.  Also it could draw the attention of Terra agents and of course Judges.  God help you if you begged on Green.
(end spitballing. go about your normal business. Now the idiot is just shooting himself in the foot.)
   One of the problems I have with what Iga said is that there are resourse available for work and loans in the game.    The only place I could think of them being is on the grid, because when I ex here in the bank there is nothing about loans or appling for them.  Maybe there are loanSharks on red who don't need a backround check and consider your kneecaps collateral.  If so, I haven't met them yet.
   Here is an idea, give one of the experienced players permission to create a second character and log the chargen process.  After the character is in the mix, kill them and post the Log on the board so we can all look at the chargen process, take it apart and make some suggestions to it.  I remember it not being user friendly, very little autohelp and no clear suggestions on how to get xhelp.  But I could be wrong.

   Hell, it doesn't even need to be that complicated.  Just ask a new player if they logged their chargen,  erase the name and other vital stats that would protect their identity and post it.

and the pot gets bigger by another 2 chyen.  anyone else in?

Panhandling is an act. An act which can be RP'd very well…sometimes all you have to do is get someone's attention.
Automated jobs are only going to take the coders and such time from completing the matrix/cybernetics/etc.

Why don't you consider getting a job at Bitch 'n; chickn?
Be a shift manager, or work the counter. Or maybe you can work at a pizza place. Hell, there is alot of drama in resturants, and it would probably be more profitable and more fun as opposed to typing <command> over and over.

You" Ok sir, that will be 200 chyen.

Customer: 200 fuckin chyen for a sandwhich and some fries? What the hell is this? Kuwait? I want to see the manager!

You: You see dis name tag ma fucka? I da ma fuckin manager.
*You pull out your seburo 6mm compact that you've saved up for weeks to get and shoot the complaining customer in the face*

Now excuse me while I finish my beer.

Your right Biohazard,
     Automated jobs would take the time away from the coders and Gms that could be put to better use.  And as I said before, there are more jobs out there than newbies see first off.  The question is how do we make them aware of them.  
    However, wouldn't the BC job be as boring as SHI if you didn't have customers?  I don't even think they have Work coded for those jobs.  And if you "Ex here" is there a place to scan in and out?  So even your suggestion would make more work for the coders and the GM's.

Anyway, My character Died, and instead of activating my clone I went towords the light.  Completely my choice.  Now I get to go thru CharGen a couple of times and post my Ideas.    Bwaa-Haaa-Haaaa-*hic*. scuse me.

You know not what you speak, so I will clarify for you.


The only two automated jobs that I know of, are SHI and WWW.  Everything else needs no automation.
You do not need to scan in for a BC job. Let me tell you why.

I've had plenty of characters with plenty of jobs. One was a bartender, and he did not need to scan in and out, becuase he was paid on a weekly basis. That's about how they do it for all non-automated jobs.

Was it boreing? Sure, most if not all of the RP-reliant jobs are boreing, but then a GM or PC will notice this and usually go out of their way to make it no so boreing.

Example: You on Sic at your BC job: Man, this job is so boring.
Bob the bank robber comes in. "Empty the register then ma fucka"

See, nothing needs to be coded or extra work done for these jobs.  

Okay, I admit my ignorance.  I am new at this, in fact SD is my first real experince with this type of gaming. Of course I would rather be ignorant that stupid.  Ignorance is fixable, stupidity isn't.

So to get the job at BC you track down the person who created it, or xhelp a GM, then RP applying for a job. And if you get the job, just show up whenever and RP being there.
And don't forget Payday.  Hmm, sounds easy enough. but do you get access to the counter, tables ect. to actually do some work, like stocking and such.  Or would you contact the owner/gm and have them do it?

This is might be the first time I have seen this discussed on the board this way.

Thanks.

SD is the first and only game such as this  that I have played, so I feel ya on that.

But yeah, depending on your job, you do actually do work.

When I hard a bartender character, he made drinks, deposited money, cleaned the bar, etc.

Some other jobs may not require that much work, such as  another character I had where they did security and all they did was make sure nobody went where they weren't supposed to be.

And those are just some of the odd jobs new players never think about. When I started like two years ago, I was all about dealing drugs, getting guns, and stealing.

Some ideas for jobs if you need any that can be obtained in sd:
Bartender
Security guard (be it mall security or corporate)
Mechanic(We have one, but he dosn't get much RP due to lack of players with vehicles)
store clerk
car salesman

Forgive me for the short list but I am just getting woke up here heh.

Quote: from Biohazard on 10:42 am on Mar. 9, 2006[br]The only two automated jobs that I know of, are SHI and WWW.  Everything else needs no automation.

This is not necessarily true.  There are other jobs out there that are available.  There have been some mentioned in a recent publication that's been published in the Mix.

Meh, I am not one for the automated jobs.
newbie friendly automated forms of getting money:

- factory jobs (2 working factories)
- delivery jobs (2 delivery outfits)
- scavenging items (2 collectors of stuff)
- selling things at the market (3 markets)
- loans (1 loanshark)

Some are documented in help tools (@newbie, forums, etc) and some are only discoverable by talking to certain automated characters.

user-friendly character generation:

- partially complete version exists
- allows going back and forth between sections
- talks a lot more about history
- integrates with 'immigration process'
- seeds variable gear and chyen depending on choices
- focuses on making it easier to get into the game without giving away the details

I am against giving new players spoilers in an fashion and in fact, was against the details available in @newbie because I thought it ruined things.

I'm sorry the grid is broken … I suck.

I'm not against automated jobs.  I think scavenging is a great job for both newer characters AND older characters.  Maybe the older character isn't doing it for the chyen he needs to SURVIVE, but that doesn't mean he/she can't do it for the chyen he -wants- to spend on booze that night.

Atleast thats an IC reason for it.  An OOC reason for it in my case would be that it's something to do when other players are not around or otherwise engaged.  It can also be a good way to create some RP, some scavenger asks you to find them something and you involve some other players by seeing if they have the item.  It gets gear and chyen circulating.

I would like to see some other automated jobs in game.  Particularly jobs that would effect your standing within the game.  I've talked about it in other posts so I'll keep it short here, but it would be awesome if you could do a job for an NPC, and have your standing with that NPC raised, and perhaps your standing with other NPCs that might be at odds with the NPC you did the work for, decreses.

Based on your standing with these certain NPCs, your interactions with still more NPCs could be effected.  It could change your 'rep' in the mix.  Make certain orginizations hate you, and others, like you.

Johnny rocks. All that stuff sounds great. Spoliers suck but sometimes you have to advertize…
    Okay, I have to admit I was initaly wrong about the jobs.  With all the automated stuff in place, newbies should have lots to do to earn money AND keep themselves entertained.  Unless you want to reduce the amount of items/bodies on the streets, (useing the clothes buyback or trashman) you don't need anymore automated jobs.  Johnny is right that you don't want to give too much away.  With IC methods of spreading info in the game now, we can actually leave stuff out an let the new characters find them.
    Honestly Johnny, I only knew 7 of the 10 autojobs you were talking about.  And while the grid is down and I am sort of bummed about it, I also really how much you rock.  The Moo itself takes lots of codelove and you need to nurture it when you can.  YOU also need nurturing and quite honestly nobody can really do that for you but you.  Do what you can do for the game, but do what you have to do for yourself. Okay?
   As for chargen I am starting a new thread in problems and complaints  that looks at those very issues you have talked about.  Thank you for your time, skill and patience.

(Edited by Mensaboy at 10:17 pm on Mar. 9, 2006)

Remember kiddies,

Donations of beer and young (but legal!) pussy can be sent to (Johnny's) house. Yes, young pussy is tax deductable.

Quote: from Mensaboy on 5:36 pm on Mar. 4, 2006[br]Thanks Iga,

It's nice to know that you guys are listening, even if you are very busy and that at least one of my ideas was interesting.

As for being stuck in the new rose cube. �it isn't a lack of knowalge that is keeping me here, I know how to get out. Its the fact that MY FUCKING COMMANDS ARE NOT WORKING AT ALL. Sorry, a little frustrated there. �

anything I type in doesn't get echoed and I get no response from the game. �However I know I am connected because I still see the TV. and I also get notices that there are posts to this forum.

Heh. �Maybe if I die, I will do chargen and log it. �remove important details and then post it to be disected and improved.

But I hope I don't. �I like my character.

P.S. if you want the story behind my BgBB handle just ask.

Mensaboy:

if you are still trapped, please provide the following info:

1) Operating System
2) MOO Client

We can then figure out what is the issue. It maybe you have an incorrect setting.

Thanks Iga,

    Fortunately the problem resolved after I sent an email to [email protected].  I went offline for a while and then when I came back, not frozen. And I have had no simular issues. (I have lots of issues but not involing freezing.) Others have had similar problems,  I am not sure what causes it.  My system is windows xp and my client is simplemu.
    Unfortunatly, He did die soon after.  However it was IC, and I shall miss him.  I did not go to my clone, instead I went to chargen, made a few new chacacters and a lot of mistakes and started a thread called Chargen in complaints.

Thanks for caring.

Cool, if you run across things that are not working please use @autobug and give a detailed description of the problem so our coders know the problem is there and can fix it.

And do not worry about the deaths, it usually takes between 3-6 characters for a newbie to the game to get into the groove.

Previously Johnny said…

newbie friendly automated forms of getting money:

- factory jobs (2 working factories)
- delivery jobs (2 delivery outfits)
- scavenging items (2 collectors of stuff)
- selling things at the market (3 markets)
- loans (1 loanshark)

Some are documented in help tools (@newbie, forums, etc) and some are only discoverable by talking to certain automated characters.

In response, and with a little game play:
   I think that only one factory is working, the one scavaging items gig that I ran into was buggy,  the markets have a few bugs of their own (you can't browse for specific items one market) and the payouts for delivery jobs are going to be cut by half at least.
    To be fair I don't think these things have been brought up before, even using @bugs.  and the Loanshark works beautifily for his purpose.
    In another thread there is a debate about ATMs in the mix and I have an idea for a pawn shop where you actually might pawn things.  Of course I need to access the scripting forums to really develop it. (Hint, Hint, Motherfucking Hint Kevlar.)  Both of these ideas might bring more oppotunities to newbies, or at least a little familiarity.

Any other comments?

I think a pawn shop would be cool, especially if you could knock it over and take -everything- that isnt bolted down out.

::is evil, very very evil::

I don't see an IC pawn shop happening unless it's run by a player.  The reason being that trading one thing for another, and all, is something that requires there be an actual person on the other side of the counter.

If you want to talk about just selling stuff, I mean, thats what the markets are, several giant pawn shops.

I've toyed with the idea of a pawn shop for a long time.

Well, yea, you'd have to have an appointment with the guy that owns it, and you'd probably end up getting screwed over if you werent careful, but I think it would work with the right help from players and admins.
Quote: from Nemisis on 12:24 pm on April 2, 2006[br]I don't see an IC pawn shop happening unless it's run by a player. �The reason being that trading one thing for another, and all, is something that requires there be an actual person on the other side of the counter.

If you want to talk about just selling stuff, I mean, thats what the markets are, several giant pawn shops.

I've toyed with the idea of a pawn shop for a long time.

There is a pawn shop in game. The characters behind it are just not around.

Than I dunno if that would exactly count, maybe if someone bought it.
Quote: from Salvatore on 9:45 pm on April 2, 2006[br]Than I dunno if that would exactly count, maybe if someone bought it.

Let me rephrase that without giving IC details away…

They are around, just I believe stopped playing, and the other, well I know but I cant say due to ICness. They still own the place however.

Oh, well, maybe it is time another, functioning Pawn Shop is built elsewhere.Regardless, it would take a rather wealthy player to do that, and I doubt any player is going to put the chy forward for this type of thing, we dont even know if it would work.
Quote: from Salvatore on 9:51 pm on April 2, 2006[br]Oh, well, maybe it is time another, functioning Pawn Shop is built elsewhere.Regardless, it would take a rather wealthy player to do that, and I doubt any player is going to put the chy forward for this type of thing, we dont even know if it would work.


Eh, no not really. We did a thing called squating. You walk into a building and set up shop. It cost us under 25k to redecorate the place. You need chyen, but you don't need to be a real wealthy player.

But than the owner of the building walks in, realizes you've been using his establishment and gets you arrested, and he keeps all your stuff.

But I could see someone doing something like that. Would be cool…

Thanks for the idea, Biohazard.

  okay, I guess my point has been compleately missed, but thats okay.  I have gotten used to it lately.(work sucks btw)

    I have pawned a thing or two IRL and I know how the system works.  Basicly you take something valuable, say a 900 dollar Moss 20 gage shotgun, to a pawnbroker.  The bastard, I mean businessperson looks it over and offers you a loan against it. (In my case it was two hundred dollars) After you recover from appoplexy, you take the money they lent you and a pawn ticket.  They promise that if you pay back the loan with interest, they won't sell your beloved possesion for a fraction of its worth.  The amount I agreed to was 10% a week.  If I couldn't pay back the loan in full they asked that I pay the minimum which of course was the interest.  Two weeks later I repaid the loan and got my beloved shotgun out of hock.  In the end it cost me 40 dollars in interest. (apr of 520%) The worst that could have happened to the pawnbroker is they would be out 200 dollars until they could sell my shotgun, at a profit of about 150%.
   So here is how I see it IG, You take a object into the pawnshop and they appraise it like the market would. (no need to hawk here)  They would offer you a loan a about 1/5 of the actual value.  if you signed the loan paper (thumbprint, whatever) you would get a pawnticket and the amount agreed on.  Take it or leave it. (no haggling either)  You would then bring back the pawnticket in less than a week and pay a minimum of 10% of the loan amount.  If you have the Chyen you pay more and buy back the item for loan plus 10%.   While you are meeting your payments the item is kept in back.  If you default, that is you don't meet the minimum payment per week, the pawnticket expires and the item is made available for resale at two to three times the loan amount.
     The only thing missing IG (in Game) really is the creation of a pawn ticket and link to the item back at the pawnshop.  The pawnticket would be set to the individual Item. (containing the Item name and number) It would also include the expiration date for the loan, the current loan amount, minimum payment (10% of the current loan) and the buyback amount (Loan amount plus minimum payment)  You lose the pawnticket or trash it and your fucked.
     I have more to say on this subject but I am really tired.  Maybe somebody should start a thread specifically for this subject.  Going to bed. Nite.

Could also be an option on the SIC chip, another option. That way you cant lose your ticket, as a lot of characters lose a lot of things.
Quote: from Salvatore on 10:29 pm on April 2, 2006[br]…That way you cant lose your ticket, as a lot of characters lose a lot of things.

I'd say that's a risk you take. ;)

      I believe that the risk is part of the point.  if you get killed and stripped you loose your gear anyway.  What does it matter if you lose a pawnticket at that point.  If you lose it any other way besides ICly then it is either a bug in the game or you fucked up.  First one, report it and maybe they will replace the missing ticket.  Second one, to bad so sad, cry me a fucking river.
    Pawntickets are meant to be new objects in the game.  They are to be treasured, traded, hated, stashed, trashed and redeemed.  They are meant to increase flow of gear and flash in the mix.  Because an increase of flow means an increase in opportunity.
    PCs could use them not only to get loans but to transfer gear from one individual to another if they have trust issues.  You are going to make a trade with somebody you don't really know.  Instead of bringing the gear and being ripped off for the gear and the money they owe you, you bring a pawnticket for the gear and the money that will make up the difference between the amount owed on the ticket and the agreed price.  The rest of the chyen you already have in a safe place so they can't rob you.
     It could be a way to give a new player a little bit of money and let him in on the game dynamics, or even small jobs IC.  An older player gives a pawnticket to a newbie along with some cash, "here, go pay this and bring me back the new ticket, and for god's sake DON'T LOSE IT." hilarity (RP) ensues.
    OOC if we just create a new item inside the game instead of adding another thing that the SICs track it would be a little easier for the coders.  Because what happens if you have more than one item in hock?  Or lose your chip, or get rid of your chip and get another implanted.  SICs are good for tracking players not gear.  In my mind pawntickets would add more objects with a few fields of information, while basing it on the players SIC would add multiple fields to the player info set.  Which would you rather debug?
     I also noticed something.  A pawnshop that is not owned by a player gets robbed and everything inside gets stolen and this is a good thing, but a player loses a pawnticket and its a bad thing. WTF!

Gotta go to work.  Looking forward to your comments.

I like all these ideas, but I still think that a player should do it.  There are IC means for someone to start working at and or running a pawn shop in game, and it wouldn't require any extra code on the admin's behalf.  Just some RP from the players.
    Sure there is a way to do it IG. If you already have a store, you just need a person to make the loans and a place to store the gear until the time runs out.  After that just put It on the shelves and sell it as usual. And don't most of the shops have back rooms anyway?  Just keep track of the Loans, amount and other info in a SHI and then work out the rest.  Pity you can't update the printing options on the shi to create letters or pawntickets.  You wouldn't have to store any other information on the paper besides what it says on it.
    Your only two weak points would be having a player who is on regularly to make the loans and  and avoid being ripped off.  Other than that your golden.
You would need some admin help, they would create the shelves, but other than that and a way to make pawn tickets(A bunch of letters?) that sounds great.
    You could use the printing option on the e-note and make fliers.  It woud be better if you could print a pawnticket, or failing that a letter.   WHY you cannot write Letters on an e-note is beyond me.  I think it would be a rather easy fix to add that to the printing options and just tweek the object creation.
    So basicly to set up a pawnshop IG you would need at a minimum.
1) a person to make the loans.  This person should have a High trading skill to evaluate the goods.
2) a way to keep track of the loans.
3) money to make the loans.
4) enough muscle, or rep,  to be kept from getting killed for your money and your gear.

In addition, to make it easier, you could have.
1) some shelves to sell the gear on. (you don't need it, you could sell the gear in the market.)
2) A back room to store the gear while the loan is being paid off. (you don't need that, a locker or even a cube would work)

Hmmm.   Maybe my character should become a Pawnbroker.  Did this help at all Sal?

That would be cool, I wonder if any players wealthy/popular ennough will put this together, it could also be really cool to anyone who already had a place and just added onto it.
    I think that this would fall under the thread Nemisis started called HUSTLE.  You wouldn't need a Large bankroll to start. Remember, you decide what you are going to loan on and how much.  25k should be a good stake and you can save up by running crates and sleeping in the park.  Also Search everywhere and see what you find.  A couple of characters ago I found 2 pistols, a wireless amp, a Lightterm, a holster and a fucking e-note.  And that was looking around on Red, in the sewers and in the park.  

The rest is just marketing.  Letting the right people know that you have money to lend, and you won't take crap from anybody.  Sure you might die, but at least you would have rolled the dice.  

Maybe two more additions on the nice to have list.
1) business cards to hand out.
2) SICADS  at 200 a line they are cheap.

Dammit this is sounding better and better all the time.

Now can we get back to the original purpose of the thread? Newbie retention.

anybody else have any ideas, or do I need to wack myself upside the head and see what comes out?

::wants to watch Mensaboy whack himself in the head::

I think that instead of having a set amount of "points" to assign yourself in the Chargen, I think you should -have- to write your history before entering the city, and the admins will help you to base your stats and skills based on your history. I hate it when someone tells you about their history, and then they do something so unbelievably OOC with one of their skills that it completely comes out of left field.

    *WHACK*  

Owww…Dammit Salvatore....that hurt.
     Okay.  How about converting @newbie information to a Babblescript that would be accessible in the coffin.  It would be more IG and more in the flavor of the game anyway.  newbies would feel a little more welcome if they actually had something targeted to them that doesn't involve OOC action.  And I concider pretty much anything that involves @ as OOC. Sue me.

Also Salvatore, we are exploring chargen in the Chargen thread in the game problems and complant forum.   The two weaknesses that I can see in your method of generating stats is.

1) The newbie would have to wait untill the history is reviewed and approved.  I have honestly waited 2 weeks for history approval.  Part of that was my fault, I aggonized over the intial history and the rewrite, but it is still a long time.  Most Newbies won't stick around for the minimum of 48 hours, let alone that long.
2) It would be arbatrary.  You would be depending on anothers person's judgment to set your vital statistics.  Even if the Gms had the wisdom of Solomon, many newbies would argue with them about why their stats should be higher.  I have been on the recieving end of that argument, and honestly I would rather deal with a colicky, teething baby than a adult gamer who is sure they are being cheated by the GM.

I am done for the night.  I am tired and my head is sore. (Fuck you very much, Salvatore.)

(Edited by Mensaboy at 9:47 am on April 6, 2006)

New players can already get the feel of the game with 'guest' but I think your right when you say @newbie would be better if it was IC. Not everything in @newbie obviously but the tone and so on…  

EDIT: ...I mean, if you want to be really strict about it "6.) How to earn money" @newbie crosses the IC/OOC barrier. The commands and such should stay in @newbie, but I think an IC intro. of sorts is lacking.

How about when during that two week period when you can sleep in a public coffin, everytime you wake up you get some kind of "Welcome to Withmore" channel.

The one at the coffins in RED would be all fucked up, basically scaring the shit out of you. In fact, on RED, you wouuld basically watch a 'Documentary' that's beamed in via NLM, made for corpies by corpies, and making RED sound like the worst place on earth. You could put in statistics... random shit... footage of riots for food and other good IC scenes that would both help the new player get in the mood and teach them something (i.e. advertisements for SHI, Wholesalers)...

....But if you come in as a corpie, you don't get that fucked up 'Documentary', you get this extremely budget. You get an overview of the city's corporations... you are told the basic legal framework, about the Corporate Council, the WJF and how they ARE the law. Warnings about RED. You could include that thing that tells anyone who sees someone with a banned barcode to report it immediately.... that kind of shit... corporate propaganda in between Adverts... but in the form of a Babblescript that introduces people to the DOme.

(Edited by BuddhaBrand at 12:33 pm on April 6, 2006)

Quote: from Mensaboy on 10:37 pm on April 5, 2006[br]     I am tired and my head is sore. (Fuck you very much, Salvatore.)

::wasnt serious… but okay::

I think you're right, that it would be based on opinion... but I am talking about GM's being a bit of an overviewer of how they distribute their stats. I have read some histories from people who grew up in Eastern Canada and lived a peaceful life and never had to fight and on and on... and then they -do- get in a fight and they can use some weapon and they are super uber +2. I dont mean that the GM's would do all the work, I dont think they have the time. And I know that histories can take a long time, but you have to take into account of what they're doing... a lot. But maybe they could setup a system so they get an e-mail whenever a history i submitted, because 2 weeks is a long long time.

And @newbie would be cooler if it were more of an IC thing. Maybe you could, instead of standing in the line, have some basic ways to make money, and where to stay explained to you. I mean they wouldnt know about the loanshark, and if they did they would shut him down I think. But some sort of a tour IC, or a "Welcome to Withmore" would be really cool.

    Now we are cooking with gas. (I knew a snipe who liked to cook hot dogs with a blowtorch.  It was tricky but he could actually do it. Crazy fucker too.)
    If we keep the commands and ooc info in @newbie but create a babblescript IC tour that can run from the coffins, we can create a little bit of a feeling of welcome.  I think budda's Idea for a welcome to withmore channel might work. Every time you enter the coffin or wake up you could have a brief flash of info.  However I think the red documentary, while creating a sense of ambiance, wouldn't nessasarily inform the newbies about some of the possiblilities.  By itself it is a little strong.
    Idea expansion.  New object instead of a babblescript. Maybe access to a flatscreen TV that flashes when you enter the coffin.  Most newbies are attracted to colors and lights.  They look at the screen and get a random channel.  Below the screen there would be a red power button, and two green channel buttons (up and down) and of course a volume control that is usually broken.   The player would only get a couple of actual channels with useful info.  The channels that come immediatly to my mind as the most helpful to a newbie are Combat, Acting and Tech. The rest would be filler,(eg Channel 57- The flower channel, "You watch a show on flower arangement." ) or snow screens.  
      The Combat channel would have shows on hand to hand combat, that would include attacking, Stop attacking, postures and such. There would be also shows on Melee weapons (Improvised Vs specific) That would cover much of the same ground.  And of course GUNS, GUNS and More GUNS!  That would show the newbie how to load, aim and attack with a gun, while also showing the variety of guns available in the game. There of course would be short blurbs on gun safety and Legal responsiblity. (You must have a firearm permit before purchasing any weapon on this show, Citizen.)
     The Acting channel would be a little more oblique.  It would give "lessons" on posing, emoting and dialogue.  Also it would also explore some slang and dialects.  And of course rules on pacing and metaposing. Example; The acting coach says, "Derek, you can see how uncomfortable Tiffiny is when you force the interaction between you.  You must let her react to what you have created internaly instead of masking the interplay with inauthentic BULLSHIT!"
     The Tech channel would have shows that would explain how to use certain items in the game.  Stuff like the FrequencyMan and the Tracker are not used enough in the game as far as I know, and showing how to use them might spark some Ideas in the little newbie craniums.  These items were meant to be used IC, but not enough information is available on how to properly use them. (Personal note.  One of my characters found a frequencyman and tried to play with it.  I @autobug'd twice before giving up on the fucking thing.)

    The other Item I would suggest that might be easier and more player driven are Free Newspaper racks.  These would be containers that would hold newspapers players have created for distribution at different locations in the game.  One of the most obvious places would be the enterance into the game.  Anybody could stock them with their newspapers, and while they are in the rack they wouldn't degrade.  It would be up to the players to get advertisers and write the articles for the papers.  Stuff like "Frodo's Guide to Whitmore" would have IC advise to newbies, with ads of local shops, hotels and restaurants to give them an idea where everything is.  This would also possibly create a little conflict when a character checks to find all his newspapers gone (trashed) and somebody elses shit in its' place.

(BTW Salvatore, I had a headache that night anyway.  I just thought it would be fun to blame somebody else for a change.;))

The trick is finding players who are willing and have the free time for all of this.
    As to the first Object, the flatscreen with all the channels, Fuck yes it would take a lot of work. It may not even be worth the effort.  I was just on a long rant.  When I get an idea stuck in my head it is better to let it out than try to suppress it.
    The second object wouldn't take as much effort OOC.  IC the characters would have to hustle to get sponsors and think about what they want to impart to others. You know, RP.  Hell, even you might print something up Reefer, just to manipulate information, confuse the newbies and draw them into subtle plans of your own making.

I can just see it;
Newbie: Hi, I am here about the job you had in the newspaper.
Reefer (wearing a shroud): Sure kid, Here is 500 chyen. Now take this letter to (GangLeader A) and if they ask, you tell them it's from me-(Ganger B).

The most dangerous carrier of a virus is the one who doesn't know they are infected.  The same of course goes for memes.
Such fun.:)

I think BabbleOn would be sufficient for a basic thing, not channels of course or an object, but a basic intro..

Instead of 'real' channels.. is there a way in BabbleOn to keep a counter? Like the second time the script runs for someone it shows something different?

That way everytime the newbie woke up they'd automatically get the next channel, i.e. tech or whatever… it would be like a dream, but you could choose to exit the coffin if you wanted and ignore it.

Lets just make real channels informative. Its all about hiding pay data in radioactive slag. Although in this case, more then a little blatant shit can work…lets just get twisted.

You wanna show them what drrty jobs they can get...put them on NLM Live w/ John Thomas. "MRC Addicted fiends and there shattered dreams"

Tell me how you survived in the mix, Dirty mixer A?
Anything and everything from…
//informative stuff


Now lets find out if you're the father of this V-Baby.
I'z tellin yous, my ace kool be wrapped up propah.
You -ARE-…NOT THE FATHER!
*celebrates*
//Entertainment

If we actively incorporate helpful information in the heaps of bullshit you're surrounded by: you can learn stuff.  :mirrorshades:

(Edited by ReeferMadness at 1:13 am on April 8, 2006)

…personally, when I started playing SD, I kept playing because of the element of needing to figure things out on my own. I had to navigate the city, I had to learn syntax, I had to find out wtf was going on and what my part was in it.

Sindome is the first game of its type that I've played - although I grew up with a Commodore 64 and a whole pile of text-based (Zorkstyle) adventures (go north / climb tree / kill grue), so the basic concept wasn't new to me.

If I'd had detailed information spoon fed to me, I'd have quit a long time ago. I wouldn't have spent hours with my first character exploring and scavenging. I wouldn't have spent similar amounts of time in SHI reading help file after help file. I wouldn't have gotten online while listening to lectures in class and read everything posted on the Bitch Board because I couldn't play myself. I wouldn't have @typo'd and @bugged everything I could get my hands on - because I wouldn't have felt the same sense of community about the game.

I know I'm not alone when I say Sindome is not just a game, it's an experience (or something similarly cliched) - I don't log in just to play. I log in to help develop, offer feedback, and to discuss plans and ideas.

If everything was forced down my throat and made simple and easy and obvious, so much of what I see Sindome to be would be lost, and I probably wouldn't hang around. I don't like my intelligence being questioned by a program. If you treat me like an idiot who can't figure things out herself, I have better things to do with my time.

     Chienne, thanks for the post.   I think most of the people who are contributing to this thread feel much the way you do.  I believe most of us love the game and want to make it better.  I also have done most of the stuff you have talked about, for pretty much the same reasons.  Curiosity, a drive to explore, a need to create something greater than myself, a need to connect and to PLAY.
    In defense of some of the stuff we are discussing, I don't think that our intension was to dumb down the dome.  Personal, I want to expand the flow of information so when somebody does come into our little slice of hell they don't get frustrated at the lack of info and leave.  There is a difference between providing information in different forms to access and Spoonfeeding somebody because you think they are stupid.  The first could be considered teaching, or at worst marketing.  The second is simply condisending.  And very few people want to feel belittled that way.
    The way I see it, there are currently two reliable forms of getting information so you can learn to play.  
    The first is OOC, Help files and this site.  Both can help you figure out syntax, the meaning of certain terms, timelines, ect.  But both are still works in progress and are being updated occasionally.  And also some people just don't learn that way.
     The second is IG, but still OOC.  Finding older players and asking them questions.  Most of the players I have run into are more than happy to share tips on playing.  I learned emoting and posing that way.  The drawback is the game is big, with many rooms to play in, and the census is usually low.  Sometimes finding somebody to talk to is hard.  Also, while passing on knowledge on how to play the game is the norm, it is also OOC.  The time you spent talking to the newbie explaining how to <whatever> is less time you have for actual RP.   Also it is a little hard to be nice to the newbie as a player and be CP as a character.  Some people can pull it off, I can't.  I would rather be able to RP knowing that the person on the receiving end knows the score and won't take it personally.

    Also Reefer,  That is a very good idea.  Hiding info inside Crap television is wrong on so many levels but it seems almost to be the perfect solution.  But it would take a lot of writing OOC to pull it off.  Or maybe we could just get together, RP it, log what happens and edit it.

My uncle has a barn. Can anybody sew costumes?
   

(Edited by Mensaboy at 3:45 pm on April 8, 2006)

Yeah.. thats a good idea too. But how would you stick that kind of programming on the TV in its present form? TVs are expensive, newbies dont have them. I guess newbies could sit in the Drome watching TV and everyone else would have to ignore it… but yeah, adding some channels... actually being able to change channels on the TV.

INcidentally, TVs perplex me... I dont get how they work, or why one of the channels always appears as the current room.

Ideally, there'd be TV like you'd expect... I mean, there's even a holo-ad for the Weather Channel! Yet you can't tune in to any channels on TV. My experience with the TV has been pretty non-IC. Like suddenly a program will start rolling all over the Dome like with the Fight Night. I mean, you can watch it anywhere right, because there are screens everywhere? But that defeats the point of having channels at all if suddenly it's "TV TIME" and the whole Dome starts spewing broadcasting.

But if small screens were to be installed into the coffins, I think that would be kinda cool, because after so long you cant get in them.
And Chienne, you may have had the patience and time to want to figure everything out yourself, but reading helpfiles and typing 'work' in SHI, while Ok for some people, for most completely defeats the purpose of RP.

So the suggestion is:

Reduce the OOC help fiiles to the bare minimum. Commands, posing, emoting, how you the IRL player operates your character.

But for everything else, i.e. the Sindome world, make it IC. You don't want that info in help files. You don't want to have to wait in SHI reading those helpfiles just to learn you can next go to Wholesalers and deliver crates.

This doesn't mean you tell people: THE LOCATION OF THE ARTERIES SECRET BASE IS …....

or, "There will be a delivery of 100,000 chyen sometime in the next 24hrs to that place of Knife..."

You tell them stuff like... "Beware the sewers. Recent radiological tests conducted by City Services have indicated the presence of military grade nerve toxins in certain areas..."

You have a little documentary that *just happens* to explain why a newbie would want to stay around to make enough chyen to buy a car.

You make an incentive for people to stay around, because they will then know that there is _A POINT_ to staying around, meaning they will enjoy themselves, and potentially be rewarded by the richness of the world.

Its all about advertising the richness of the world... even though it can be hard to believe that sometimes.

Salvatore.. see there is a serious difference that leads to confusion here.

You have 'TV' objects, i.e. flatscreens and so on that can be manipulated, you can change the channel (.. well, theoretically? again, I can't figure it out, but maybe because there's never anything on)

Then you have " Ad Blimps and Video Walls" . These are the things that you have no control over, except to ignore (does this really work?) and are *everywhere*… you get those broadcasts in your coffin, and while I'm not sure if its in the description, there is actually supposed to be a small screen in there already.

But, this version of 'TV" is just the thing that scrolls Ads occasionally.

The confusion I have is... when a TV script has been initiated by a GM.. this TV show is then playing ALL OVER THE PLACE. Regardless if you have a TV or not. You can watch the shows in the street. I think this should changel...

I think shows should be isolated to TV objects. That gives more of a point to TV objects being around. You could stick them in public places, like in bars, even food places and stores...But the ad-blimps and video walls don't play shows!

So I guess, yeah, stick a TV object in the coffin, locked down obviously, and give it a bunch of helpful channels for newbies. Hell, make these channels accessible from any TV. "Welcome to Withmore"... the "Education Channel"... "Survival!"... etc.

Yea, I doubt it would be an actual TV hooked up to the TV stations all over Withmore. I think it would be automated so that whenever a nOOb inside the coffin logs on, it immediately begins playing. And if they log off before it finishes, when they come back it starts off where it left. I know, it might be kind of hard to code, but it wopuld make it a bit easier for nOOb's to figure it out.
The way I see television is this.  NLM controls the media, when they want -every fucking person- to see something.. every fucking person see's it, ya scan?

Also, the ambient TV's, I figure those are all on the same 'ad-blip with the occasional programming to keep people from completly tuning them out' kinda thing.  There all on the same channel on purpose, the channels can't be changed.  That's the way NLM wants it.

It seems to me that it would be far more favourable for the corps if they only broadcasted interesting and popular shows such as the big GM events on actual TVs, otherwise they would probably make a lot less money. The corpies have to be kept consuming as much technology as possible for the corporations to keep their control over them, so the TV companies probably want to keep their best programming to the paid-for TV channels. I would assume that there'd be some kind of mutual deal going on between NLM and the big TV manufacturers to ensure that the most popular TV series starts a new season just as the ultra-cool new TV sets are being released, etc. to help facilitate the need for mass consumption as much as possible.

Secondly, if NLM broadcasts a ridiculous number of channels then the viewing population feels like they have a choice, and thus some degree of freedom. In the interest of the ruling corporations, again, it's important that those in their servitude think they're completely free and that everything is better than it used to be before the corporations were so powerful. A simple way of doing this with TV is with loads of channels: like everything in cyberpunk, quantity is seen as the most important value, and quality doesn't even have to come into it (just look at TV in real life nowadays).

Thirdly, as far as I know most advertising is designed to work around your conscious mind rather than influence it, so I don't think anybody tuning out the ad-blimps would be a problem for the advertisers. However, I've never lived in any kind of ad-filled city or anything so I can't be sure of this. I would definitely assume that the advertisers know their psychology though, and they do not waste money.

I think that instead of playing shows on ad-blimps they would be far more likely to play an ad for the show, obviously, or at most a five-minute clip or something. Advertising costs money, and that money is not well-spent if it goes on free TV for the whole city.

And another thing: I've never been very sure about the way the seperate levels in the Dome are designed, but if I'm right in thinking that there may be potential gaps in between levels (say, the sewers on Gold might at some point lead to the airspace above Red), then some anti-corpie mixers could arrange a crafty plot to take out an ad-blimp from above using a secret temporary hideout in the Gold sewers! Or even better (assuming that the blimps have been made out of some anti-inflammatory substance or something), aim extraordinarily carefully and drop some petrol on top of the blimp, setting it alight shortly thereafter, creating a floating effigy of hatred with the SECONDARY FUNCTION of sending choking, deadly fumes up to the higher regions of the Dome, smoking out the once-proud tiers of high society and creating a NATIONAL EMERGENCY! MUAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

God, if only object-oriented programming was feasible down to the particle level.

In this life: there are infinite possibilties.

Check out help scripting. Writing tv shows ain't easy…but they would be cool as shit.