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Original discussion scattered through
hereI think it should -absolutely- be possible to steal a SIC implant from someone and re-implant it in someone else, and I don't think the donor should have to die to get it out.
Of course if the RipperDoc wasn't that skilled … ;) but I digress ...
I can think of a -ton- of things to do ...
With the donor's SIC implant in my head ...
With the donor's SIC implant in your (not the donor's) head
With the donor's SIC implant, first in your (or my) head and then back in the donor's head and they didn't know it was gone ...
To the donor because they don't have their original implant.
If identity (and eventually things like mag-lev access and I would assume the ability to track movement via what you use the SIC for) are tied to the SIC, heh, what could you do/use/buy .. as someone else for a short while?
I hate to bring this back up as I posted about it here, but the movie Minority Report deals with the theme of "you are who the technology says you are", Gattaca was another great example of this and there are -so- many possibilities when identity theft or change are possible.
Think of the team work (and RP) needed to pull off kidnapping/ambushing/whatever someone in order to steal their implant.
Do you hold them hostage while the implant is being used? (Make sure you take their cell phone)
Do you throw them out into the streets and place an anon. tip to a Judge that so and so doesn't have a SIC?
And then what do you do with it? �You (hopefully) had a plan in mind, or maybe you think you're going to corner the 'CleanNoCriminalHistory' ™ SIC implant market.
Plots get plotted
Gear and info is bought and sold
Services are performed
Chyen exchanges hands
Stuff happens ...
So much rich RP to be had ...
Oh, -so- many possibilities.
Oh, Oh!
And when the matrix is up and running, if the net jocks have a way into the SIC system, -and- we have removable implants ..
*shudder*
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 7:31 AM
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If I'm a RipperDoc, I'm probably not gonna go after someone with just a SIC. I'll go after the biggest Chrome Junkies (who, hopefully aren't too well armed) in the world. Just my opinion. I'm coming for your implants…that could have a rather funny meaning. Okay, I done.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 7:38 AM
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… the biggest Chrome Junkies (who, hopefully aren't too well armed)
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Besides .. think sneaky … ;)
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 7:42 AM
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That's why I said hopefully. Not saying it would happen cause I'm sure people will pump themselves full of weapon and armor implants before they start grabbing other stuff. Sneaky sneaky sneaky. Like, well, I won't say it, cause then I'd be really hard to use on people. Now all I need to do is become cyberdoc. Maybe next character, whenever that happens.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 7:46 AM
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Think outside the box …
While this is something that would benefit RipperDocs in that they have more business, this -really- benefits other types even more.
What could -you- do if you were someone else for ...
an hour?
a day?
a week?
How many lives could you make miserable?
How much could you get for yourself?
The RipperDoc really plays a small part in this by providing the service.
It's what -you-, and the people you're in cohoots with, do that's the best part.
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 8:05 AM
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Yeah, I know what you're saying, but, damn it, I want to rip people's cybernetic limbs out.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 8:07 AM
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But look at it this way -
you extract someone's SIC, fuck up, and they die. They clone with their real SIC. What happens when to people have the same SIC?
Besides, one has to consider that the SIC implant is, from what I can tell, basically a SIM card with a built-in transmitter. Got a GSR phone? You know what I'm talking about. Hell, in France and some other European countries you can use your SIM to buy things off vending machines, it gets charged to your phone bill - AND your phone'll ring in front of certain shops with advertisements in the form of a text message or pre-recorded call.
So it's this tiny chip in the middle of a vertebrae, cerebral cortex or somewhere in there grafted to most probably a major nerve. Chances are, unless you have some -good- facilities, and a good doc or two, your 'patient' will die. And what happens when you want to be 'you' again? Take out the other guy's SIC and put in yours again? Wanna risk death for the chance to be someone else till they clone?
If it's made realistically difficult to do, it'll barely ever get done. If it's made easy to do, then everybody'll be doing it, causing people to forego (as they have foregone so far) the much more classic, complex, dangerous and ultimately satisfying ways of screwing one's enemy/nemesis/what-have-you over.
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 3:02 PM
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I understand, to a point, what Murphy is saying about the complexity of the task.
However, as you walk into the Dome the first time, through immigration, some guy walks up to you, presses an injector against your neck, you feel intense pain (possibly even passing out due to the pain) and viola, implanted.
Assuming medical science has evolved to the point where it's as easy (or at least close) to remove it as it is to implant it …
Yeah, implants for a dead body should have a finite shelf life, whether they clone or not .. maybe the 'trigger' is the implant not receiving a signal or sensing it's connected for say 20-30 min and then auto destructing ..
Hmmm, what happens if the auto destruct is buggy and it's been re-implanted ...
It shouldn't be insanely difficult to do/have done
It shouldn't be easy to have done.
But it should be possible.
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 3:27 PM
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Quote: from Max on 6:27 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]But it should be possible.
But should it be possible for players to do without GM intervention?
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 3:32 PM
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If we can rip other implants without gm intervention, why not SICs?
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 3:33 PM
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Same reason I can't exile whoever my character decides deserves it without GM intervention?
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 3:35 PM
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Well, but consider, IC, exiling people isn't just something you do. Don't the people generally get captured first and given a more official judgement? Running up to someone and ripping fake body parts off is a bit more straight forward.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 3:37 PM
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Yep. But fake body parts are easy to rip off. The nerve connections aren't where the dough is, you can replace those easy.
But running up to someone, knocking them out, taking them to a high-tech clinic and stealing their identity has fairly large impact on a character.
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 3:46 PM
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I guess you have a point there.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 3:51 PM
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Besides, consider how hard it'd be to get the equipment you need to do this without damaging the SIC. I don't think you'd go down to Surplus and Shit for it. Just because the tech is advanced enough, doesn't mean you can get it. A GM would probably have to help then, so, if a GM is helping anyway, the whole thing could just be a series of 'room' poses (emits) with the necessary changes done behind the scenes.
For instance, when YouKnowWho (just trying to not spoil it for those who don't read the NLM boards) was freeze-dried, not only was it done with his consent (from what I gathered), but there was no fancy code involved. Just a series of poses and whatever else was needed done, was done behind the scenes. Many 'major' things that will affect your character in major ways, and that should not be everyday occurances (apart from ambient population and background events, of course), can happen this way.
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Yes, without GM intervention.
Players can be tracked, without direct GM intervention.
They can kill, and certaintly be killed without direct GM intervention.
Some players can even eavesdrop on other players, without direct GM intervention.
Did they/do they need GM help to get into position to do these things? �Sometimes.
The YouKnowWho thing was a special situation that I don't think (unless I'm missing something) is quite the same as this. �And I think exiling someone falls more under the special situations than does taking a chunk of hardware out of someone that was put in with an injector.
Do I want SIC implants and cyberlimbs (when available) to be ripped off/out at will. �No.
Would ripping a SIC and re-implanting it in someone else be legal? �Would your average clinic on Gold Green or Blue do that as a matter of course? I -highly- doubt it.
Sure, it would probably take GM intervention to be able to have access to the equipment needed. �It would also probably take the right skill, or combination of skills.
But to relegate this to a series of poses and have a GM do the back end work?
This is one of the -raw materials- I spoke of a few months ago in a post I suddenly can't find. �Why ask the GMs to do something that -we- can do and is wonderfully in theme?
Again I point to Gattaca and Minority Report and countless other CP or CPish films, stories, novels, where a change in (percieved) identity plays a key role.
The possibilities that this would open up, especially if killing the person rendered the SIC unusable, and other appropriate safeguards were in place so it couldn't be abused, are incredible!
Even now, identity theft happens every day. �Every time a credit card is stolen and used, everytime someone logs into a system as someone other than themself, every time someone copies someone else's web cookies and browses to the relevant sites, and in so many other ways.
This is simply the way it's done in 2087.
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 4:35 PM
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Apologies as I meant to address this in the last post but forgot …
Quote: from Hirononbu on 6:33 pm on Feb. 15, 2003 If we can rip other implants without gm intervention, why not SICs?
Which led to ...
Quote: from Murphy on 6:35 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]Same reason I can't exile whoever my character decides deserves it without GM intervention?
Exiling somone is a final act, akin to perma death. �Game over, please slot more chyen, thanks for playing, love ya buh bye, please create a new character. �
To be honest, if a character was so psychopathic as to warrant exile, (and the bar has been set pretty high already) and was actually caught, then they deserve what they get, whether they agree or not.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime …
Quote: from Murphy on 6:46 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]But running up to someone, knocking them out, taking them to a high-tech clinic and stealing their identity has fairly large impact on a character.
Yes it does. And an impact that can spawn much good RP.
The can find out who stole it.
They can enlist the help of friends
They can enlist the help of WJF
They can dodge WJF
They need to undo (if possible) whatever damage was done in their name …
I'm not sure that exile (permenant) and identity theft (temporary) carry the same weight.
(Edited by Max at 8:14 pm on Feb. 15, 2003)
By Max at Feb 15, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Quote: from Max on 8:02 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]Exiling somone is a final act, akin to perma death. �Game over, please slot more chyen, thanks for playing, love ya buh bye, please create a new character. �
Uh.
No.
From what I've been told by xhelping, when someone is exiled, their SIC is ripped out and their character dropped in the badlands.
20 bucks says there's a way back in, at that.
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Hey, let's take someone, rip out their only means of communication, and drop them into the future equivalent of the Sahara Desert.
They're not coming back.
By Lotus at Feb 15, 2003, 7:02 PM
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Quote: from Lotus on 7:02 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]Hey, let's take someone, rip out their only means of communication…..
What about speech? And sign language/gesturing. Don't forget farting.
By Hirononbu at Feb 15, 2003, 8:50 PM
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Quote: from Lotus on 10:02 pm on Feb. 15, 2003[br]Hey, let's take someone, rip out their only means of communication, and drop them into the future equivalent of the Sahara Desert.They're not coming back.
Well, if this person didn't need to eat, drink or rest, and healed at a phenomenal rate, I'd put my bets on him or her making it.
By Murphy at Feb 15, 2003, 8:55 PM
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Wow, a lot of really good debate has been raging here. This is a topic very much so on the fore-front of my brain these days as I am actively working on the stuff involved in this.
The Facts:
- The SIC -is- cyberware.
- 60 million (I figure 5 million wouldn't have it) of your close personal friends are all walking around with this in them.
- The city pays for their implantation, and buys them in bulk.
- They are as cheap and reliable as possible since the city pays for them.
- They are powered by your bio-electric trickle charge.
- They are easy for a doc to install and uninstall.
- They are not a complicated implant and aren't much of a risk to the host.
- They have an unchangable ID associated with the CHIP itself.
- The SIC ID is set permanently on each CHIP when activated on the network.
The Future:
Presently, the code is at the point where I need to make several corrections and bug fixes to the SIC system to secure the 'trust' of the identity system. When recording your clone, sense/net should record your SIC ID and -that- ID should be activated when you get cloned by Genetek. Cyberware is not yet removable from corpses by cyberdocs. This needs to happen before I open up cyberware.
When you die, Genetek is notified on a different frequency (weak explaination for why you can't stop Genetek from knowing someone died) that the person known as <sic ID> died.
*pauses for a moment of realization*
Sidebar: cloning back as someone else from their SIC ID.
Contining with original thought …
Now, when you clone back (as yourself for now), Genetek is going to reactivate your SIC ID on a new CHIP. In the 20 minutes since your death, your killers have taken your corpse to a doc, got the SIC implanted in their head and stolen say ... your encryption keys, or perhaps chyen from your bank account, or used it for whatever else they can, -in that 20 minute window-.
See how this will work?
And thats only if they kill you. I'd just force you to change SICs with me and keep you tied up in a room that gets
No signal detected...
Obviously, I need address the cloning back as someone else thing. The first thing that comes to mind is that we'd need to make it possible for two players to have the same name somehow since thats not possible these days because you log on with that name. So, its not -all- decided yet, but I've done a large amount of the work on doing this the right way.
Discuss on …
By Johnny at Feb 15, 2003, 10:43 PM
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And thats only if they kill you. I'd just force you to change SICs with me and keep you tied up in a room that gets No signal detected...
Heh, or ..
PlayerX and friends grab PlayerY
PlayerY is KOd and taken to have his SIC removed
PlayerY's SIC is implanted in PlayerX
PlayerY wakes up in a locked room, with -no- SIC. (remember to take that cell phone)
PlayerX and friends do their dastardly deeds
When the deed is done, PlayerX has the implant removed and placed back in PlayerY's head.
PlayerY is dumped somewhere
Quote: from Johnny on 1:43 am on Feb. 16, 2003[br]
*pauses for a moment of realization*Sidebar: cloning back as someone else from their SIC ID.
Contining with original thought …
Does this mean that if PlayerX dies with PlayerY's SIC, PlayerY clones?
*shudders at the possibilities of -that- one*
I have more rumbeling around in this poor excuse for a brain but can't quite formulate anything rational (for the moment) so I'll end this by saying ..
Even if -nothing- else, on the cool factor scale of 1-10, im my opinion, this is about a 9.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
GMs?
Players?
Anyone?
Beuhler? �Beuhler?
(Edited by Max at 8:28 am on Feb. 16, 2003)
By Max at Feb 16, 2003, 5:26 AM
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Obviously, I need address the cloning back as someone else thing. The first thing that comes to mind is that we'd need to make it possible for two players to have the same name somehow since thats not possible these days because you log on with that name.
Hmm, so if you log in with one name but everyone sees you with a different name….that sounds rather similar to being disguised. Kina sounds like one of those two bird thingies, where they kill both of em with one stone. I've tried it a few times. I never hit the first bird, let alone the second. But this is a MOO, no crazy bird killing hour, so I......I forgot where I was going with this. Yeah, but disguising would be cool too.
By Hirononbu at Feb 16, 2003, 8:17 AM
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Disguise is already beginning to get into the game in the form of clothing that conceals (shrouds, masks, helmets).
It will mostlikely continue with that, but yes, you're right, it would be possible to completely take someones name with a high-enough disguise skill and the right items.
And yes Max, your way is much more fun :)
By Johnny at Feb 16, 2003, 11:22 AM
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in order to have the time ro remouve a SIC implant wouldn't you have to have the ability to keep someone KOed long enough? right now it's like about a minute yes?
but wow…. the possibility of recloning as someone else...
just. wow.
how would memory work in that case? i'm just starting to wrap my brain around -that- one.
By Bias at Feb 16, 2003, 11:48 AM
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While it would be neat, I don't think re-cloning as someone else -should- be a possibility as a result of removable SICs.
Now, as a plot drawn up and executed as a one time thing .. that's a different story … ;)
Given what Jman said earlier I think that if I die, with your SIC in my head, then -your- clone should get activated and I'm in some sort of limbo until my clone (hopefully) is activated.
By Max at Feb 16, 2003, 11:58 AM
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I'm not going to discuss cloning back as someone else until I myself have addressed all the points -I can think of- and then it'll be a new topic, I don't want to bury the discussion in the SIC thread.
And the SIC implant is implantable when you're conscious, it'll be removable when your conscious too. Besides the fact that clinics can easily drop you unconscious.
By Johnny at Feb 16, 2003, 12:02 PM
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Well, if it's going to get done, I figure it should at least be made difficult. I understand the IC need for making the SIC easy to implant, and maybe even to remove - but I don't see why SICs would be made to be removable and re-implantable without some degree of difficulty. If you tear out someone's SIC officially (i.e., by WJF/council decision), it's because you don't want him in Withmore anymore - why would extra expense be put into the design of the chip to prevent damage to the implant when removed? To remove it undamaged and 100% intact, ready for re-implantation, I figure it should be difficult. Not to mention the difficulty of obtaining the equipment - the idea would be to not make it routine, like a Bruce run, because it has definitely more impact than a routine Bruce run. It should be unpredictable to some extent - like combat. And further than that, how about the possibility of wiring a cortex bomb to the SIC? Take out the SIC….....Bewm. Bye bye, 'patient', and bye bye to whoever was leaning over the guy's neck, probably, too.
By Murphy at Feb 16, 2003, 1:06 PM
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Quote: from Murphy on 4:06 pm on Feb. 16, 2003[br]If you tear out someone's SIC officially (i.e., by WJF/council decision), it's because you don't want him in Withmore anymore - why would extra expense be put into the design of the chip to prevent damage to the implant when removed?
Hmmm, my initial thought is that people -do- leave this place. �It's not like it's the Hotel California where you can check in and never leave.
Hopefully, I didn't imply that this would be as common as a Bruce run. �If I did, I apologize as that was -not- my intention.
Quote: from Murphy on 4:06 pm on Feb. 16, 2003[br]To remove it undamaged and 100% intact, ready for re-implantation, I figure it should be difficult.
I agree completely. �There should be certain skills and facilities required to do it so your average pissed off punk cant just rip a SIC out of someone's head, yet there are people who can perform the task. �I'd think that the skills involved would have a direct bearing on the ability to remove the thing -without- damaging it.
By Max at Feb 16, 2003, 1:48 PM
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Ok Umm i've more or less skimmed the whole topic here.
I disagree with Murph it should be relatively easy. People can survive bullet shots to the head right? Why should some guy be able to take a very sharp pocket knife, tie some dude down, cut open his head or back to get to the chip, pull the chip out, and sew said victim up. There would be a lot of pain, and blood, but he could still live. Then maybe have a stolen injector gun to reinject. Oh or even and pull out thingy like in The Matrix when they go to get that buggy thing out. I just think it s hould be relatively easy.
Also, i think of the SIC as kind of a Social Security Number with a phone, always on, inside your head. It's easy as hell to steal someones identity, and as easy to get that SS #. Why should SIC be different? You could SIC over public with this persons actual serial number/alias I'm gonna kill you Bob the Ninja Goat, then disguise yourself as Alice the Fairyhunter, and kill Bob the Ninja Goat. Either Kill alice or let her go with her old SIC, you just did the pefect murder.
Bottom, it should be easy as pie, with lots of blood and gore, cause I like blood and gore.
By Dominik at Feb 16, 2003, 8:15 PM
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Well, I figure if the chip is put in with an injector, it's probably too small to handle properly with anything but tweezers - until Johnny's post a bit earlier in the topic I always assumed it was a nanite treatement which *built* the chip into your spine. It's also most likely connected to a nerve in your spine so you can actually get this info in your head. So cutting open someone's neck with a pocket knife would probably not be the best way to go about removing it undamaged. Hey, maybe you can survive the removal even if it's so…erh...brusque. But will all the parts of the chip survive if it's just torn out? We can also assume it's securely grafted on so, for insance, cracking one's neck doesn't dislodge it.
And, I sispect the reason characters survive bullets to the head in SD is for game balance reasons, not themely, IC ones. And, for both game balance and for themely IC reasons, my opinion is that it should be difficult. Cos if it isn't, I and everyone else will just get disguised and do it to everyone they don't like. Hey, I have knives. Do you?
By Murphy at Feb 16, 2003, 10:11 PM
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I'm not sayin a blind man should be able to do it. And I think you and I are speaking about t he same thing, just half empty half full.
Like taking tonsels out, or taking out an appendix is a very simple procedure, but I'd kill a man trying it. You make it sound like brain surgery that the slightest mishap will fuck it all up. The chip I think of as fairly durable, and went I was talkin bout a knife, i just meant to get to the chip, and not just rip the chip out.
As far as the bullet thing, I remember at one time they talked about dodging bullets as sort of an IC deal, it has to be themely. If a guy can take a shot to the head, he can take a knife in the back.
By Dominik at Feb 17, 2003, 7:39 PM
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Actually, I don't see it as dodging bullets - that's ludicrous. I see it as dodging the shooter. If you aren't where the muzzle of the gun is pointing when the poor sap pulls the trigger, he misses. If you are where the bullet is heading after the hammer hits the back of the round - you're hit.
Obviously, getting -to- the chip is easy, obviously. Getting to anything inside someone's body is easy, provided you have something sharp. Or something dull (like a spoon) and enough time. Taking it out without damaging not the chip proper, but the connections (or pins, or whatever it's grafted onto your nerves with - and not damaging the guy's central nervous system), that's the problem. The chip isn't just floating there in the plasma waiting to be plucked out, obviously. Doing repair work on something about the size of, what, a small watch battery? smaller?, without the benefit of a full, high tech lab? I imagine people doing this would want to avoid that - unless, of course, they just want to fuck up the chip without any plans to reimplant it. In that case, I'm fairly certain creative acupuncture with a rusty fork would do the job.
By Murphy at Feb 17, 2003, 9:02 PM
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They are easy for a doc to install and uninstall.
Keyword there is DOC, Murphy.
And no, throwing some points into medical doesn't make you a 'doc' and no, I won't tell you what does.
By Johnny at Feb 17, 2003, 9:08 PM
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