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Skill Test Objects
Displays of pure skill!

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There are a few areas in the game that allow for displays of a characters skill, particularly in performance for the artists among the cast, but there is also... dart boards?

This got me thinking about other ways characters may showcase their skills or put them to the test against other players through an in-character contest of sorts. The dart board exists, but I can think of similar things.

Punch tester machine: an arcade-like machine that has the user punch a bag as hard as possible and rates how powerful the punch is on a numerical scale. Brawling.

Break-boards / wood boards / cinderblocks: An age old flex for martial artists, break manufactured break-boards at Corporate gyms, or scrap wood boards and cinderblocks in Red. Martial Arts.

Tameshigiri stand: Cut through synthfiber tatami mats, more cuts before the mat falls is more skillful. Long blades.

High striker: Another arcade-like machine where the user is instead rated on how well they swing a hammer. Melee.

Why? Sometimes it is interesting to have a way other than sparring to assess people for training scenes, and impromptu or even organized competitions can easily be started around some of these mechanisms.

By batko at Sep 13, 2023 10:32 AM
I'd love to see more stuff like this, or how the weight bench works but for other stats (ex: Trivia board for intelligence maybe?).

As far as punching goes, you could technically do this with training dummies from what I know, which tell you how hard you hit.

But there's other skills too. Flight/driving simulator for an arcade, an operation/surgery arcade for medical and maybe some spot-the-difference game for perception?

By Sliceman at Sep 13, 2023 10:35 AM
seeking racing sims for flight and ground
By robotdogfighter at Sep 13, 2023 10:37 AM
I like it. This could also help as a way to gauge whether someone is really all that, especially if you need them for a high-stakes gig.
By SoulTune at Sep 13, 2023 10:37 AM
I personally don't like anything that lets you directly compare how many points you have in a skill/stat vs other characters. The bench is included in this. Dummies and ranges for example, or even SHFL, have RNG involved, where you can't exactly tell how skilled or good someone is.

Maybe if there was some RNG involved and obfuscation, but I don't personally wanna see more variations of the bench. Especially true for combat - if you want to figure out how good someone is, you should be fighting them.

By Cowbell at Sep 13, 2023 10:40 AM
The trouble with these sorts of skill/stat evaluation mechanisms is they end up navigating between two conflicting design goals: Informing the player about their skills, and not informing a player about their skills. The mechanisms that do exist in-game, or that have existed in the past, end up as a compromise where either the feedback given to the player is fuzzed and randomized, the skill and stat checks are randomized (or fake), or both.

This came up some time ago with the vehicle skill evaluation function that briefly existed but which had fuzzed output, which created a problem where the player was basically being randomly misled to about their proficiency, something I felt was actually worse for new players than having no information at all because interpreting that feedback required basically understanding how it had been generated under the hood.

By 0x1mm at Sep 13, 2023 12:32 PM
I agree that there has always been a degree of obfuscation from an OOC perspective. Sindome doesn't detail exactly how all the skills and stats work or when they are used for example.

At the same time, huge changes have taken place to provide more clarity. Like the change in skill rankings and providing general categories for the lettered rankings (blow average, above average and so on).

Also, in my experience, most of the obfuscation was focused more on the OOC side. Less so on the IC side. And most of the complaints I have seen from staff had to do with players using OOC info like stat levels in IC as it doesn't make sense. I've never seen staff frustrated with characters ICly learning and discussing these things ICly from and IC context using IC means so long as it feels ICly natural and doesn't break theme.

So I am fine with more items like the weight bench being added to the game. I do personally thinn they should always work off of a roll, not simply translate stat/skill/both to an IC number. I also want to avoid items that might reduce RP too much. As most items of this nature do already.

For me it comes down to what helps characters experience the Sindome world more natural way. To encourage IC/RP that is natural and life like without sacrificing theme. I think there's a lot of room for items that can help here without breaking things.

By Grey0 at Sep 13, 2023 12:51 PM
The issue is that IC learning and OOC learning are not really the same thing, and players are almost by definition engaging in some OOC learning (sometimes of an unintended kind) unless it's a purely roleplaying exercise.

I feel like the worst outcomes for player experiences and expectations are when they have to know some way or another when the game is going to "lie" to them about things, and how to parse that fuzzy information, because it's the most unfair to new players and most benefits players who have knowledge about the internal workings of the game.

Weight benches function somewhat fine in this sense because a player knowing how much their character can lift IC provides no more information about other game mechanisms than could be had from simply opening their @stats menu. Although players can (and frequently do) take the wrong implications from this information, none of it really actively misleading.

Other mechanisms are less helpful, and less straightforward. Players can and do basically as a rule learn the wrong skill and stat lessons from tools that are really meant to just give exposure to commands and the type of feedback they will see.

The solution to that is to give players accurate understanding of game systems, which of course is pretty contrary to the minimal information design the game is based on.

By 0x1mm at Sep 13, 2023 1:43 PM
Although what you could do (if players felt their was a need to communicate their own skills better) is make tools/toys/games that test a skill in total isolation (ie. no true weighted rolls factoring gear or stats), and report results in terms of skillsoft analogy, something that is already semi-common for communicating how well practiced someone is.

For example a swordplay arcade game might check a character's skill during a play session and report at the end they're "Rank Silver" or "Rank Platinum" or "Rank Platinum+" for anything above. This doesn't tell the player themselves anything they don't already know because they can look at their own @stats and see their skill rank, but it does let others know in an easier way what they already know but may have a hard time communicating.

What you would have to avoid, I think, is either making feedback that provided information about true weighted skill rolls that factored stats and gear (because then you start drifting into players parsing out their substats and other hidden mechanics) or having true weighted roll skills that gave fuzzy feedback to conceal these things but would mislead players about their own abilities.

By 0x1mm at Sep 13, 2023 3:34 PM
I mean, there's also firearm targets that give true feedback on skill rolls that factor stats and gear. I think the hangup against providing IC feedback on skill usage is caused by the lines being blurred between the staff being anti-OOC mechanical knowledge and the assumption that IC learning is somehow forbidden along those lines.

These objects don't really need to give some in-depth rating of your skill usage. Take tameshigiri for example, how much useful mechanical knowledge are you really going to glean from how many cuts you can perform? If you punch the punch tester machine, you get a nebulous number-- you can get that from punching dummies, too, and from shooting targets at a shooting range, but this is a different presentation geared towards competition or roleplay around training.

I don't think these are anything different than what is already present in the game in other forms, is all. I also think that providing a way for characters to make displays of their capabilities in a way that is similar to performances for artists would help roleplay, allowing an outlet for bragging and rivalry and competition without just flat-out combat-- as others have said, this can apply to non-combat skills too, such as a racing VR game. Actual fights won't go anywhere, and this could even encourage people to fight more; that machine doesn't know shit, baka, how about I punch YOU instead?

By batko at Sep 13, 2023 3:45 PM
Training dummies (and other things) are what I am getting at in terms of making players feel like they're getting underlying combat data feedback, when they're often not, at least not in the way they might understand it because there's more (or less) going on.

The various tools and venues for experiencing the combat system without doing actual lethal combat are great player training tools for familiarizing players with commands and feedback that they might not otherwise get to experience on a regular basis, but many players I think fall into the trap of believing these are guides for character building.

As long as mechanics are going to stay obfuscated in general, I think it's best for the game to be clear about 'You've Got to Do X, To Learn X' rather than give vague gestures or muddled feedback through other tools that don't actually give a true picture.

By 0x1mm at Sep 13, 2023 4:29 PM
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