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Sleeping Death

To cut a long rant short, last night i was playing and i got disconnected for a few hours and it was out of my control. my character, who was probably my best so far, was left unconscious on the street, in a situation that would probably not have occured in reality unless he had a specific disease. it was also late at night, so i went to sleep, and woke up early this morning to get my character to safety, only to find that i was dead for no apparent reason. I didn't even have any known enemies yet. The reason I care so much about it is I'd been putting a lot of tedious work into the guy for the past while, and was just beginning to make the connections I needed for some half-decent RP.

Anyway is there any possibility that sleeping characters can be made immune to death to deal with situations like this? i know it'd be less realistic and stuff and there are a few other bad points, but I would have had no qualms with the incident if it hadn't happened partially because of OOC connection problems anyway.

I see it like, you should still be able to manipulate sleepers in every other way, beat the utter shit out of them, drag them away and leave them in the sewers if you fancy it, steal their stuff, just not actually kill them. If you want to finish off someone's character i think it should be done when you can be sure you're not taking advantage of computer problems on their part, or anything similar. My char may well have lived through some great RP if I hadn't been disconnected at that crucial moment.

I'm expecting a lot of disagreement with this, but are there many other players that suffer from these kinds of problems? I specifically mean connection/computer problems that interfere with play, but anything else is good too.

Well uh, I still think you should be able to kill sleepers, but only if you have a legitimate reason, like your bob the uber assasin, and you sneak into greg the marks house, and he is cuddled on his bed, and put a bullet in his forehead, then I see no problem with that. Cuase Thats how alot of IRL assasinations go (errm...don't look at me...) But, uh, if you just walk by someone and see them on the streets, it's probably not too cool to snap their knecks and run off laughing unless it's...uh..IC (I guess) for you to do so.

Sleeping Newbies are immune to being killed. Once you get something like 3 weeks of play that immunity goes away.

As for connection problems there is a forum to deal with it.

Unexpected disconnections are protected for enough time for you to reestablish your connection in dial-up circumstances. Protecting characters longer than that opens it up as a way to get out of the situations you find your character in. When the staff are around and something like this happens, we try our best to make protect the person (we usually throw them in the $void until they reconnect), but we certainly can't make any promises.

This is covered in @newbie, section 3, titled 'How to logout'.

I can remember a very long time ago back in the day on a street in the Mix when a bad mofo, I think it was Snoop or Mak, got the disconnect and fell asleep like a baby on the street. Me and my partner just looked at each other and role played kicking the living fuck outa him for about ten minutes. We pissed ourselves laughing during the whole thing. When he reconnected and staggered to his feet we had a hard time explaining the role play that had occurred....a surreal moment in a very tense and turbulent RP period.

I think I've only seen one major spat of sleeper-killing, and it didn't last long...bad form and most of all...no real RP in it.

IC actions have IC concequences. Sometimes thoes actions are as simple as walking around RED minding your own business, and sometimes the concequences are as dire as death.

It's entirely reasonable to immagine that your character was attacked from behind and rendered unconcious. These things do happen. You definately don't have to have to resort to disease to explain it.

It's unfortunate that the circumstances conspired to render your character dead though means beyond your control. Others have mentioned that the code DOES protect you against connection-problem-related death and even death as a fresh immigrant, and I'll draw your attention to the fact that there's IC ways of ensuring that death dosn't mean the end of your character, even in situtations like this. You should seek out thoes IC methods if your char's life is important to you (and him!). I think once you realize thoes IC methods, you'll see that a balence allready does exist and that there's more protection from death than you realized.

-Kevlar

IC stuff aside, I think its pretty dumb to just kill sleepers you find on the street.  Most of the time, they newer players, who didn't know enough to find a safe place to sleep, and if its an older player, unless there RP has brought them to the point of sleeping on the street, its probably a disconnection.  I know when I see sleepers, i xhelp to let an admin know that so and so may have disconnected, and probably should be put in the void.  And if there are no admin around, find an IC way to get the person to a safe place.  

Even if its your worst enemy, someone you can't wait to plot against and kill, whats the fun in snapping there neck and taking there gear?  It's not cheating, rules wise; but your cheating yourself out of some damn good RP, thats for sure.

I -definitily- disagree with restricting killing so that you can't kill sleepers, let's say for instance, uhm..a non combat character, let's say someone who picks locks and stuff, breaks into someones apartment, to do away with them, because they couldn't take them on by themselves, and don't have the option of putting together a posse, sleeper-kill may be the only option - that said, killing a sleeper, just for the sole reason of killing them, is a bit weak.

The only problem I have and I'm sure most of the staff agree's is the fact that someone breaking into your apartment and rummaging through your things, or grabbing ahold of you to snap your neck -might- wake you up. I'm not saying it will everytime, but there just isn't the support for a sleeper waking up to defend themselves.  

Yeah if your mr Ghost-Ninja and you've paid someone to fry the lock on an aparment, or bought the code from the schmucks GF, then you could possibly get in there and kill him without waking him up.

It's all about choices, if we're gonna condone sleeper-killing, then we need a system of checks to make sure that character has at least a chance to wake up to defend themselves.
And if we're gonna allow people to break into rooms by use of a skill, there needs to be balances in place i.e. security upgrades to doors, burglar alarms (as simple as a motion detector and an air horn)  In which case your character would wake up.

Ahh but then what happens to the sleeping players right to RP out what is unfolding? Do we give them a call and say "Hey your character is under attack under these circumstances, if he should wake up you better get online with a quickness"
or do we set up an automated combat in which the sleeping character groggily defends themselves and if they fight the person off then force them into a dream script of what happened before they actually 'wake up' ic'ly after they log on?

Lotsa problems with killing sleepers and keeping a fair balance in the game.  

Yeah I'm done..I think...yep..wait...yea i'm done.

Hmm..  I think that the death-message of people (when they're sleeping) should be ah..  like the final message of a combat round (I think guns are already like this) for whatever weapon you're using.  But I know that those descriptions and such are already being worked on, so I'm not gonna bitch about it.  :P

Last time I broke into someone's apartment..  who I intended to kill..  and found them asleep, I at least RP'd it..  and even got the GMs to spice things up a bit (in various ways) for when the person's clone returned.

It really can be fun for everyone if you do it right.  But as far as killing innocent people in the streets for no apparent reason...  yeha, that's just plain silly.

But thank goodness most of the players we have here are good about letting the admin know, or telling other players OOCly that so-and-so got disconnected before they entered the room, etc.  I'm very glad that most of our players are understanding in this regard and don't jump at the chance to kill a D/C'd player.  I know I'd probably be perma'd nine times over by now if it weren't for some good players stepping in to OOCly let people know.

Yes. indeed.

The problem with the whole, making a system for sleepers to defend themselves thing is really, when do they attack?  Do they kill the person if they can manage it?  Do they just keep knocking the person unconcious?  What happens to the ninja that breaks in and attacks the sleeper, when the sleeper wakes up and attacks him?  Do you wake up with a corpse next to you?  What if it was a Judge that came to kill you for a crime you commited, and you kill the judge, and then, you wake up next to his corpse just as his backup busts in.  Then you have to deal ICly with the consequences of an action that you didn't actuly approve, or partake in.  I see alot of bitching involved in a situation like that.

I guess you could always have it as an option, like if you -want- to attack people that try and kill you in your sleep, you have to ICly deal with the consequences.  But I'd bet there are people that wouldn't want it on.  

By and large the idea that someone should respond in an IC fashion while not actually IC is a BIG can of worms that I'd rather not open. Simply put: We'll never get it right for every situtation, and the cost of getting it wrong can seriously outweight the cost of getting it right, or even close.

It's been discussed before that we might make a system where the user can decide how they spend their IC time while not IC, allowing you to work/sleep/play in respective percentages of the time your not logged in, but even that's just shuffling numbers around on the backend... not actually doing thoes actions for them.

Clearly there's a balance to be had. What that balance looks like still isn't entirely clear to me.

-Kevlar

*resurrected*

I think if someone has the time to abuse abilities like stealth in an IC sense not in a coded sense then they should have the time to wait for people to log in for combat.

Or come up with an alternative like leaving a stripped tortured person and his/her belongings taken.

Sleep killing should only happen when someone logs off to avoid RP intentionally. It feels like a punishment for not playing the game 24/7 when it happens I believe.


The rules have definitely changed.

I recall playing Sindome roughly ten years ago with Jesse, and seeing ALOT of sleep killing going on.  It was that whole 'if your dumb enough to log off in public, then you deserve to die' mentality.  Hell, when I first came back with this character, I didn't know the rules had changed.  I sleep killed SIX street sleepers to get their items before being voided and asked "WTF ARE YOU DOING?"  Imagine -my- surprise haha!

Don't get me wrong, I bring this up to say that things have definitely improved.  I don't like the idea of sleep killing.  It takes the fun out of the situation.  If pk is all your here for then please, leave.  If sleep killing is your goal, then you are seriously twisted.

There have been a few times I have wanted to break down locked doors icly to nab a sleeping player.  I won't deny that.  But they would definitely wake up to some crazy fun rp.  Yay torture *coughs*

I believe this got a bump, because of recent rp, and Jman would like a serious opinion from us people.  Its only fair to give what's asked.

In response, I don't agree with it.  It gives the dead individual -nothing- in return.  They don't even get the adrenaline rush that everyone else does.  However; I -do- believe that if your character has a good reason, fuck it, its IC.  Let my character catch Red Eyes or Scaley sleeping...it'd happen.  And furthermore...the whole 'you would wake up' argument.  Please, no more snapping their necks so they can say that.  Just shoot them, or stab them in the heart.  Wake up and defend yourself my ass.

In case of the recent situation, here is my statement.
I do not like the outcome, nor the events that led up to it, but it was IC, and the situation deemed it a necessary evil.

There were a lot better options available in that situation if we're talking about the same one.

I think the fact it resulted in a sleep kill is part of the reason the dead player wants your characters gone.

I don't think I can agree with anything that takes RP away from anyone.

Restraint and patience should have been shown so ALL players could enjoy the situation and not just do it to benefit from the death.

I don't play Sindome myself just to let my character amass loot or feel the need to kill people to feel better about myself, I'd want interesting experiences and good dialouge and fun situations. I don't know how I'd react if I woke up in the vats after calling it a night.

Everyone is a reflection of their character whether it be in apparent or subtle ways I think and by what I understand about the situation I feel kind of disappointed with some people and find myself doubting perspective future RP.

I hate to say that but it's how I feel currently.

*chuckles*

You weren't even part of that so where is your opinion coming from?

While sleep killing is frowned on in many situations it is not completely banned.  It requires admin approval.

I'm the one who coded it so that you can't just snap necks.  Two years ago sleep killing was much more prominent.  We've since reduced the reasons you would need to sleep kill (IE: when you pickpocket a sleep you get all their chyen, instead of it working the same as if they were awake).

However, there are still situations where sleep killing is IC.  These situations are few and far between.  Each situation is different and what applies in one does not always apply in another.

I'm open to a discussion involving the possible situations where it's okay.  Maybe that would put us all on the same page.  It seems that everyone is saying they don't agree with sleep killing, yet many of you have at one time or another sleep killed someone, or tried to sleep kill someone.

Let's discuss when you guys think it's okay, and when you guys think it's not okay.

Sneaking into someone's home, and then them logging off.  OK

If they are an enemy, and same situation above happened, and/or they left their door open.  OK

If they're an enemy, and you were told by admin they did not lose connection but logged.  OK

Anything else to me is no good.  Homes like appartments and cubes should be so small, you can't hide in.  IF your sleeping in a large room that can have hidden areas and/or people can hide in...well, shouldn't be sleepin there.  That's what cubes are for, as well as the coded locks on appartments.  The game is set up so you CAN sleep kill, just not often and definitely only for a good reason.

I can tell what happened through RP. It's not difficult considering how much shit some characters talk.

I don't think sleep killing is okay in any situations. This is a game before anything else and players should be allowed to experience what happens to their characters.

It's either IC or not IC. Allow sleep killing for everyone or don't allow it at all.

A grey area could make people feel like they're being targeted, no?

I think if theres a situation IRL where you could be killed in your sleep, and it's IC for the situation as well, then all other arguments are moot.    

We live in a big boy cyberpunk world, I think personally theres not always enough people combating, and too many sitting around sipping drinks and talking shit but doing nothing.  There are people out there who think it should never happen, and that combat and killing is gay and counter RP.   Both views are good because most people fall somewhere in the middle, but if both views didn't exist then there would be no balance.  I like opinions I don't agree with, I like discussion, I don't really like argument but it all adds to the game in it's own little way.

All of that said I agree that about 75% of the time sleep killing is gay, twinky, and silly.  I however came up in the area where if you were stupid enough to sleep in the streets then death was a reality.  Kind of like the real world.  and while I agree with that position for those smart enough to know better it is easily taken advantage of, and people do have severe connection issues.  As long as sleep kills are allowed by admin on a time to time, case by case basis then I probably prefer the coded protection for this reason.

In closing I'd just like to say you can hide behind honor, justice and the "for the sake of good RP for everyone" way but I stand by the fact that if it's IC, and it's possible IRL then we should be subject to it.    

Oh on a final note I've been sleep killed before, in my apartment, and I'm pretty positive it was by a admin/gm.. but I to this day still don't know for sure.

The whole big boy CP world and IC arguement is not a very good point to make.

If it's IC and this is a big boy CP world then you need to make Sleep kills allowed at all times without admin approval because well that would be a big boy CP world and it's IC, right?

I'm really interested if anyone has any points that actually make sense across the entire scope of the topic at hand.

thanks for your blatend disregard for anything I have to say.  the need for the protection comes in when there are things that can't be forseen, connection issues for instance.  Look I played this game for a loooong time where sleep killing was all good in the hood, and normal everyday business.  others can back me up on this.   You call me the stupid idioit hackandslasher, and I'll call you the fluffybunny drink sipper and we can end the conflict and discuss in a rational way okay?

Considering how much death my character has caused I don't think that'd be very appropriate and I don't remember calling you any such thing.

I read what you wrote and responded with how I thought was fit. I didn't disregard anything I'm sorry if you feel that way.

But you either support something or you don't support something.

It's one or the other, grey areas are very bad in my opinion why is that a bad thing?


I will say something though Jotun, every time we try to discuss something you get very visibly upset on here and i'm not sure why.

I recall being sleep killed heh.  It IS a pain, but at the time it was my fault.  Damn doors not closin by themselves.

I condone it, if its reasonable.  And part of me wishes that it was left up to the player still, but then we do get into that whole 'connection trouble' field.  As if big uber merc player is going to just lay down in the street and go to sleep.

Otherwise you got locked doors.  And locked doors do NOT open for players when there is a sleeper behind them.

What makes this situation, the recent rp, special...is that a door did not HAVE to be hacked to get to them.  Your not safe, even in a place where you been sleeping free for months.  Stick to cubes, and that issue is void.

So, the discussion seems to be if the gray area of it's okay sometimes but those sometimes are not exactly specified.  And are up to an admin.

Do you all see this as being a problem?  I want to hear from other people on this as well.  Would us laying out specific situations where it is appropriate fix the problem?  Is that even possible?  Do we need a certain criteria?

Waking up to discover that you've been sleep-killed is never a fun experience, especially knowing that it must mean you missed out on some good RP.

However it's a risk you take every time you hit @quit in a tenuous or even seemingly normal situation. In a world like Sindome, every time you close your eyes you wonder if you might open them again.

Code-wise, it would be nice if there could be some way to differentiate between an @quit disconnect and a client disconnect; perhaps one can set you vulnerable to a sleep-kill and one can prevent it.

(Edited by Claire at 7:08 pm on Feb. 12, 2009)

That already happens code-wise.

Oh well in that case...never mind!

As I said, or...kind of said, it'd be nice if people would avoid killing sleepers unless they had a -really- good reason. It's no fun to deprive others of RP.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Administrators just simply using their judgement on whether or not a gray area sleep kill is okay or not.

Because there could be other Administrators or players that don't agree, well and that's because it's a gray area.

If you make it either good or bad then we don't have to worry about fussing over whether or not the right approval was made, right?


I also want to point out that the coded protection against sleep killing was put into place mainly so people new to the game didn't just sleep kill random people because they thought it was okay.

*coughs*

Like me...

I have a hard time hearing that people are not comfortable putting their characters lives in the hands of admin. �You guys do it all the time. �From the moment you leave chargen to the moment you see The End. �Your character is in our hands. �

It's our job to administrate the game. �That means deciding what's okay and what's not okay.

(Edited by Slither at 7:16 pm on Feb. 12, 2009)

(Edited by Slither at 7:17 pm on Feb. 12, 2009)

Yes because it's not a gray area to be actively controlling your character and making choices that could lead you into different situations right?


It's entirely different to be sleeping in your bed waiting to go to work then get home and play sindome and not aware of what could be happening to you.

I'd like to think an administrator would not allow this to happen to me if I'm a dedicated player but this is apparently not the case as it has been mentioned.


I really think it'd be impossible to set a hard and fast rule to this but if anyone has one I'd like to hear it.  The gm's/admin should have the ability to tell when it's okay, and when it's not.  I totally agree.  Thats what their there for.

The bottom line as I see it is that there are times when not sleep killing someone is terribly un-IC and I am inclined to agree with Jotun that if something is possible in real life, it should be possible here.  That's why we require admin approval.  If it's just senseless killing someone is looking for, then we aren't going to allow them to sleep kill you.  

If there is a valid IC reason why they would want you dead, and they have been actively pursuing it, and positioned themselves in a position ICly to make it happen, regardless of if you are connected are not, it seems unfair to tell them, sorry you just spent 5 hours RPing this situation out, because that person just signed off, and now you're out of luck.  

I'm sorry I just don't agree with going to bed and being at the mercy of players while i have no choice but to be logged off.

I don't think an administrator or a player should feel justified in anyway to punish me for having responsibilities in the real life like a job and the need to get a good amount of sleep.

If they think they should kill you then they can wait till you're awake to defend yourself.

The way I understand it. The people who killed the person in this situation HAD to  sleep kill the person who died because they are not capable of killing him otherwise and this has been proved many many times in the past few weeks and I can't help but feel due to some OOC chat that happened in the game  channel that this sleep kill was motivated out of frustration for having someone stronger beat on them for never backing down from Ego-driven RP responses to being slaughtered.

It has been a quite disappointing experience all these fights, the end result in more solidified shit talking on the SIC and even more crazy ego's instead of being fearful and scared of dying more.


This is why I can't support this sleep kill and I don't think I should support any of them if that's the case.

Another part of being an admin is being privy to all the facts, stats, skills, and previous RP that have progressed to make a specific situation happen ICly.

And that's what makes it impossible to offer a counter argument to a specific situation, such as the one you just mentioned.  As an admin I can't go into details that might validate my point, as it may reveal IC info.

So for the purposes of this thread, and for my being able to offer potential counter arguments, let's talk in generalities and not in specifics.

If sleep kills are a gray area that need to be approved via the situation then it is difficult to argue the point without citing examples of how it was used and approved.

Sorry.

I think I made my point clear enough though I don't think I need to post anymore about it.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, everyone.

What about that one guy who you've held a grudge against for so many years who has finally trusted you enough to let you crash at his place?  You hate his guts, and you're sick and tired of brown-nosing him, but all this time you've just smiled and nodded.  Now he's asleep in the next room and you know the code to get out of his apartment.  You know you can't beat him in a fair fight.  He's always been tougher than your scrawny ass.  There he is, just laying there in the next room.  He doesn't suspect a thing.

What do you do?

RP crippling him, hand-cuffing him, with help of a GM disable him so when he logs in you can offer an good RP experience for the both of you to share.

Somehow I doubt they'll consider it a "good RP experience."  No one ever has except a select few when I've done just that to them.  When someone loses in any way, shape, or form, they always bitch and complain regardless of the RP they got out of it before, during, or after the fact.  Its one of the many reasons Aikao isn't around anymore.

That's just a bit too extreme to accept. If they don't appreciate the RP you give them shame on them, but you should still try to provide it as it is a game you play with other people. Not you and logged off corpses.


Too extreme to accept?  I've been here probably over 7 years now.  You try to give good RP in different ways for that long without people appreciating it, you start to get bitter and wonder why you even try.  And there's one thing people seem to be forgetting around here.

DEATH LEADS TO RP.

I know there's noobs getting killed left and right nowadays on SD for little to no reason, over and over without getting RP or even understanding why in some cases.  You think they're going to think twice about killing someone in their sleep?

Maybe the players should focus more on giving RP to the people who are actually connected to the game and awake than giving RP to the people who are logged off.  I don't like sleep killing either, but it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in some instances.  If a GM doesn't have a problem with it, I don't see why others should.  Or are you idiots still thinking they're all out trying to cheat you?

I miss the Chaos :(

I'm sorry but you just sound like a very bitter player when you talk like that. Although I can imagine if you've been playing for 7 years!

I hope it hasn't been all one character you must have gotten pretty bored!

Maybe we can RP sometime. Cause we both seem to want better experiences than what is offered by some of the other veterens!

Thanks for the input tonight guys!

The issue in my mind is grim realism vs. creating an ideal gaming environment.  Something should happen to people who litter the streets with their sleeping bodies, that's for sure.  Moved to a safe place, disgraced, robbed... Going to sleep on the streets intentionally is foolish. Who would do it on purpose without something IRL happening that made them forget to get somewhere safe? Either it's a brand new player who shouldn't be messed with or an older player who didn't intend for their character to do something so stupid.  On the other hand, I've thought about making a character who sleeps on the streets as a homeless person and such a character should be ready to die at any moment. The same goes for people forgetting to close doors. In real life how often do you forget to close the door to your house? If there is a sleeping body on the street, perhaps a GM should be allowed to move him since theoretically he'd move himself within the next morning. Also in a city like Withmore you'd like doors that close automatically would be standard.
Sindome is a game, some things are stretched from reality.  Ideally we want to make the world as realistic as possible.  But for the sake of an enjoyable gaming experience killing someone in their sleep should be deeply frown upon.  It's definitely true that death leads to RP.  The only time I'd ever sleepkill somebody is if it were in a situation where it was premeditated for a very long time and I finally got somebody to trust me with their unconscious body.  Even in that case I would want to declare my intent OOCly and ask if they want to stay logged on to be there when I 'wake them up'.  It is the responsibility of an aggressor to provide their victim with  exciting RP.  It is the responsibility of the dead to accept their loss and respond with even more exciting RP when they wake up.  And I also believe it is the responsibility of the GMs to compliment and reward players that are playing the game in IC style and OOC honor.

Quote: from Cryer on 3:16 am on Feb. 13, 2009[br]In real life how often do you forget to close the door to your house?

I actually did once.. was really wasted and scared the bajesus out of my boyfriend who could see through our half open door that I wasn't in the bed. Luckly for me though I don't live in Withmore and was perfectly safe, passed out on my couch.

In Withmore however, anything less then rape and murder would just be seen as weak. I believe that if there is RP around the sleep kill (although sadly probably not for the killed in most case) and it's believable and validated, then sure.

That's probably only 10% of cases though, if that.

Cyberscot.

If I can't jack cars without an admin being around to make sure it's kosher, then you can't SLEEPKILL people without the same.

You don't get to RP with Aikao, but you get to RP with the result of what happens when you don't SLEEPKILL.

Everyone's best insurance against getting SLEEPKILLED is the same as his was - a character can only hate you so much. If you've got a bounty that makes you worth more alive than dead, they SHOULD NOT SLEEPKILL you.
1) They don't get the money
2) They're just being an ass
3) Leaving you alive but in your enemy's hands generates more RP than waking up in the vats confused and vulnerable.

Finally remembered my BGBB posting profile....yayyyy

(Edited by Lena at 2:16 pm on Feb. 13, 2009)

I rarely post (because my pc hardly ever stays on long enough to 'submit') but yea, first off gray areas exist quite a bit in this game, because it's a game.  I've sleep-killed pc's and been sleep-killed.  Shit happens.  Shit's changed.  The way I see it is basically the same thing that's been said quite a few times in this thread recently; it's more or less a case by case deal depending on the surrounding circumstances.  No defined rules can cover all possible scenarios, and in the end I say leave it to the GM's to decide if it's justified, if that's what it comes down to.  Hell, there are worse things than being sleep-killed, and even though it's a shitty situation to end up in, it gives you potential RP.  Who would want me dead, who had the resources to do it this way, who can I pay to let names slip, etc etc....  Whatever, submitting before this is all lost to my piece of shit.  

Sometimes the result of a sleepkill is the deceased no longer logging into play anymore.

I don't think it's worth the risk just for people to get off on it.


Thanks for your responses.

As I stated in the previous post, shit happens.  Perhaps if it comes to that point, the player needs to take a step back, perhaps a small hiatus and realize it's JUST A FUCKING GAME.  So, the person that died gets screwed out of -some- RP, but is left with an opportunity to get quite a bit of RP out of it.  Perhaps there was -tons- or great RP going on that led to the incident or perhaps not, it's a case by case.  People should not let their characters affect their life so damned much.

Well I value people playing the game and anything that'll make them leave because they feel cheated out of potential RP is not something I want to see happen to good RPers.

I don't care if you stand to gain a whole lot of gear or chyen or anything I want the players to stay playing the game. Whether they get upset too easily or not.

The game is nothing without it's players from my point of view.

Well, in a sense I agree, but at the same time I've seen tons of players come and go, some I'd not care to ever RP with again.  If 15 people get amazing RP out of one sleepkill, then I'm all for it, even if it's me being the fuck that gets the shaft.  I may be bitter for a bit, but everyone gets that way every now and then. But bet your ass I'll be back to play some more, even if I have to start a new character.  

I'm all for weeding out the playerbase every now and then.  Some people I've seen play the game don't grasp the concept of CP.  Some people don't follow IC guidelines and systematically use OOC info to advance themselves ICly without regard to anyone else.  Eh, scattered thoughts, long day, need to get drunk and compose this shit better but screw it.  Take it easy.

I agree with Cyberscot.

We're here because we've got a slightly more creative bent then the average video-gamer.

The game is addictive. People who stay get attached to their characters. It happens to the best of us - grim was there, I was there, everyone can probably raise their hands. They'll get over it.

But if you can point out to them that it's JUST A GAME - can't they throw that back at you? Their feelings are more real than this 'spirit of CP = killing' theory.

Eventually each character has to die. But not in their sleep.

I'm not saying no one gets attached.  I've been plenty attached to some of my characters.  I know it sucks ass, and I've been there too.  I've taken long breaks when things get to me, others have done the same, nothing wrong with that.  Sure throw it back at me if you want, I'd be disappointed if no one did.  If I overreact because of IC events then please throw it in my face, because it's the truth.  I agree it's addictive, otherwise I wouldn't have stayed this long, having gone through God knows how many characters.  Just saying, people shouldn't take shit too seriously in the long run.  People play to have fun, when fun isn't had it sucks.  But not everyone can have fun all the time.  That sucks too, but it's reality.

Having fun does not equal winning. So it's important for people to be having fun as much as possible whether it be getting destroyed or killing everyone around them.

I won't just brush people off because they aren't having fun. If they aren't having fun then I might be doing something wrong or not enough to make the situations I am involved in... fun.

Ramsey. And others.

This game isn't reality. It's an escape, for a lot of people.
It's supposed to be harsh, yes...but.

If you value someone - their character, or their person - there is no good reason for knowingly doing something that would cause them enough UNFUN to make them want to give up an otherwise FUN venture.

Often our actions tick off others without us realizing it would do so...everybody has bad days. That's where the GMs come in.

Now I feel all fluffy for taking the 'nice' side on this topic, and am mad about that. Last Post. You know my stance - No SLEEPKILL.

I'm certainly not saying to not have fun, cause without that element I wouldn't play the game.  But not everyone will always have fun.  I'm not saying let sleepkills become a common occurrence.  I'm saying if IC actions and reactions lead up to something like that, and a GM sees where it's led from and decides it's legit then so be it, whether I'm the corpse thereafter or someone else.  I'm not against people enjoying SD, but quite the contrary.  I've actively tried to bring new people in the game plenty over the years and I hate to see the playerbase diminish any, especially over something like being sleepkilled, but what may be unfun for some is heaps of fun for others.  There's no winning at SD as everyone knows (or should by now, heh) but plenty of highs and lows, and that's almost as low as you can get, but why not come back knowing okay, I've experienced the shittiest now let's see if I can't use that experience to get some of the best RP out of it.

Anyway off to get tipsy being it's the woman's b-day tomorrow and hopefully a bit lucky, hah.  Later

Lena, you're one to talk about taking people out of the game with no RP.

(Edited by Aikao at 8:19 pm on Feb. 13, 2009)

Hi folks.

Here's the only two cents I really wanna add to this thread:

Coming from experience, attempted burglaries can be slept through.  In September of last year, not two weeks after I was robbed in broad daylight at gunpoint by some punk-assed kid, somebody attempted to break into our first-floor apartment via one of our dining room windows. Aside from some noise that I assumed was our cats playing with something, I didn't take notice of the issue until the next morning at five, when my wife and I discovered glass littering our floor, a slash along the frame of our screen, and a large hole knocked into our window with enough force to crack it in several places from top to bottom. If it weren't for the fact that the burglar was spooked by something, we may have faced a very dire situation if the individual or individuals managed to enter our home...

Anyway, I just wanted to give you a real-world correlation to sleep killing or potential sleep killing. It can happen simply because the victim isn't observant enough of their environment and assume a certain level of safety. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty lucky nothing else came of the issue save a broken window, a planned move, and about three weeks of insomnia with me pacing the house at odd hours with an unsheathed katana I kept underneath my side of the bed EVERY time I heard a noise after the incident.

I understand the realism behind it and all.

But in this case like we've mentioned the realism and all the CP justification in the world should be sacrificed to keep a content player base.

Making Joe-Lamer happy with an easy kill and effortless gear/chyen gain isn't worth pissing off potentially Awesome-RPer-Great-Community-Contributor Hakeem Al'ka'bar and making him not want to log back in.

Even if he does come back it messes up the RP for his allies and his enemies robbing us of good RP on both sides.

It's very counter intuitive in the long run.

Aye?

But who's to say Joe-Lamer is the only one to get some RP out of it.  Perhaps Billy Peckerhead, Bert, & Ernie all end up having awesome RP out of the ordeal, would it then still be feasible that it shouldn't happen because Hakeem Whatever has had good RP in the past but can't cope with the fact that after the countless ppl he's fucked over (although -mostly- supplying good rp during) he finally gets the short end of the stick?  I'm just saying that we can't all be happy, and we all have to cope with bullshit icly, but we shouldn't have to change the way things hit the fan to please just -1- person.

You have to stop and ask yourself why the " RP " Involved would be awesome?


Awesome why? Because the loot take was high and they got their rocks off for killing a difficult enemy -specifically- cause he was sleeping?


What is awesome about other than the end result? And what does the end result of the actions have to do with being Awesome RP?

What if the RP was really brief, bland, and calculated? How Awesome could it be then?

A lot of questions can be asked on that but I don't think it's safe to assume it was just " awesome " RP simply by measuring the success of a sleepkill.

Either way. It's counter intuitive and should be addressed in such a manner that the game community as a whole for the sake of our addicted sanity. is best served and not the wallets and rocks of greedy impatient characters.

I'm sorry but I also keep hearing the same arguements said right back to me and I just keep trying to get my point across from different angles because I don't quite think you're grasping at the core of it.

It's fine.

I am not adversely suffering from the result of anyone not logging in. I am doing quite well for myself and have nothing to complain about. I am sorry I gave you that impression.

And thanks for the disclaimer about being drunk I won't hold it against you. I'm sure i'm getting quite annoying saying the same point in different ways over and over again. But I feel quite strongly about this and my opinion won't change so I will probably keep trying to convince everyone who offers a counter opinion. That's mostly how discussions work in my experience.

Until the other party gives in that is ^_~

We aint giving in.  We're taking turns.  There's a major difference.

You constantly bring this point up.  Arguing that 'oh noes you could not beat this uber person who was powerplaying your asses left and right'.  Well, in HIS defense, he never just walked into a room and started combat, there was more to it.  Mr. uber man, I never had any issue with you sir.  None WHATSOEVER.  Your char and mine though, god I'ma miss that, seriously :(

As for you.  Just WHY are you so opinionated on this?  You act as though its YOU that was sleep killed instead of your char's protection.  Your talking about the diminished value of roleplay.  But, if your character is doing fine, then has it diminished?  Or has your roleplay been changed by forces outside of your scope, or your power?  THAT the issue here ego-gamer?

Did you just call me ego-gamer?

Pot... Kettle...


Anyway.

The origins of my feelings behind this are obviously concern for retaining great RPers in the community and not making them feel as if the game is going somewhere they don't want to go simply because of a shitty sleepkill.

Anything else behind my motivations does not concern you.

I'd appreciate it if you left the needless crap out of your posts if you want to discuss anything with me.

Thy will be done great noob from the stars who was sent by the rp gods to show us the way!  Your attacking the establishment.  Admin decisions.  Player decisions.  IC decisions.  Your going to light a fire in some people's asses mate.

And i'll speak my mind in whatever fashion I wish to.  This is for all accounts, the bitch board, and friend you are bound to hear lots and lots of bitching.

And I called you ego-gamer to point out that you, sound no different from anyone else.  Was you who started that little phrase I believe.  Hypocrisy at its finest boys and girls.

You say shitty sleep kill, I say, shoulda had a cube and not logged in a place someone can hide.  Why is it your arguing this and he is not?  Surely your perspective must be flawed, having not been a part of it in any fashion.

Needless crap is the stab friend.  Its the twisting of the proverbial knife.  And despite it, I've no doubt you'll reply.
However; I give you this, my last post here, so you can have your last word.  Tonight.

Perhaps he isn't arguing because he is so disappointed with you and the admin that he doesn't want to continue playing the game anymore?

Ever think about that?

There are a lot of Ifs Ands or Buts.

I didn't lose anything here but I disagree with what happened.

The people who won here are of course going to bitch and moan about me disagreeing with the method they used to get their revenge/loot returned.

I'm obviously not alone in my opinion if you take the time to read the rest of the thread.

I'm only concerned with the players and how they feel when this sort of thing happens to him. I don't care what you think is fair for your character to do ICly.

Because frankly it doesn't matter how IC it is. Players should come first and if this is a feature of sindome that is detrimental to the player base then it needs to be evaluated that is all.

Get over yourself. If you cannot respect my opinion without being so hostile then I am going to simply return the favor.


Good day.

I have sleep killed before, and been sleep killed

This is my two cents:

Sleep killing is very lame.  I will never do it again, and haven't for a long time now.

Though i can understand why in certain situations some would feel the need to..

this is one of those subjects that will allways be beaten to death.

whatever triggered this happened. The gm's and admins obviously have enough interest in the topic to police it. Get over it?

There has been a significant interest in alternatives in conversations other than in this thread so getting over it at this point would be silly.

I'd like to ask everyone get there two chyen in on the Tied up thread please.


Thank you.

I'm not currently playing at the moment, so I may be talking out of my ass, but it seems like you're crying about your character getting killed or something to that extent. It happened, boo hoo, the admins and gms said they are going to police it, move on.

thats my two.

Stop talking out of your ass bio! :P

So what are the current rules on sleep-killing now anyway? I always thought it was against the rules unless a GM gave you permission in a specific instance.

Is it possible for me to create a character who has a violent hatred to homeless people and will kill anybody who sleeps on the streets on sight?

What is the appeal to killing people on the street and what advantages would you be willing to give up to earn the right to do so? If the corpse was unlootable would it still be worth it? If the player retained memory but dropped gear would it still be worth it? Both? What if killing them simply teleported them to the coffins? Of course all this is unrealistic but what I'm trying to get at is the appeal of sleep-killing. I suspect it's the fact that you stumble on an IC chance to catch your characters worst enemy off guard and you feel that it is out of character to pass up the opportunity.

Would sleep-killing still introduce more RP for the victim if the attacker destroys all evidence and never admits to it?

What are the trade-offs and are they worth it? Obviously there are a number of players who would be very unhappy if they were sleep-killed. Is it worth upsetting these players? I guess the rebuttal is that those players don't understand the game and shouldn't be playing in the first place. But I really don't think this game will benefit from narrowing its target player-base even more.

We should be more creative with what we do with sleepers. Throw them outside, lock them up, draw on them... maybe event tattoo or dismember them. I just don't see why we need to kill them for RP when there are plenty of other storylines we can come up with.

As for this conversation, it seems to be much more argumentative than it is discussing.

I originally bumped this thread to take a pulse on the MOOs current opinions as to sleep killing. I am glad to see that they really haven't changed (despite a very strong signal to the contrary from one individual) all that much.

This last sleep kill involved a well established long term confrontation between two powerful individuals. They were both powerful, but in different respects. The kill came about by one of them leveraging their talents to put themselves in a position to carry out the task and they leveraged further resources to inact their egress from the situation. It was carried out under my personal supervision where I challenged the individual to justify their actions in detail and carried out numerous hand rolled skill checks to ensure a fair outcome.

While I am saddened to hear the decision of any individual to leave the game, it certainly has zero effect on our policies concerning sleep killing. They will continue in their current capacity as an admin regulated tool of RP. Thanks everyone for your input.

Three people spoke out against sleep killing, not one. But thanks anyway.

Oh wow Johnny, sounds like you put a whole lot of effort into supervising the sleep kill. I greatly respect the  diligence you put into it. I trust that the opportunity for retaliation would have received the same amount of attention provided it had been chosen.

Well, every action has an equal and opposite reaction ...

"In short, Duke, a shitstorm." - Eugene 'The Plague' Belford

I think sleep killing is the gayest, worst, most insulting thing you can do to someone and I've avoided doing it for sometime despite my ability to do so on a rather consistent basis due to my characters abilities.

However, since it's abundantly clear how wrong I was and incorrect to be frustrated by this. I have no problem stepping up.

Lock your doors, assholes. ;)

Aikao - if you had some issue with how I dealt with your character, I invite you to tell me and everyone else about it. I thought I dealt with it in a pretty creative way. But maybe we all can learn something about how it could've been done better.

To my knowledge, removing a character from the game without any RP isn't something I've ever done. Except maybe this one newb and even then I gave them a few chances. I'm open to criticism here...

Why don't you ask an admin?

Ike...chill the fuck out. You're probably the oldest if not longest lived character around. Which is disgusting. If you're so dissapointed that your sleeping PC was handed over to the care of GM's of which you are ONE. Maybe you shouldn't have centered so many plots around him.

Not that it's that terrible...you could be Wildfire...and DO NOTHING.

No offense, but once you become a GM. Your PC becomes a NPC in my eyes. I can understand what happened to you sucks...believe me. I officially feel like the cheapest, twinkiest asshole right now but if that's what other people are gonna resort too you can either jump on the bandwagon or man up.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 7:26 pm on Feb. 14, 2009[br]Ike...chill the fuck out. You're probably the oldest if not longest lived character around. Which is disgusting. If you're so dissapointed that your sleeping PC was handed over to the care of GM's of which you are ONE. Maybe you shouldn't have centered so many plots around him.

Not that it's that terrible...you could be Wildfire...and DO NOTHING.

No offense, but once you become a GM. Your PC becomes a NPC in my eyes. I can understand what happened to you sucks...believe me. I officially feel like the cheapest, twinkiest asshole right now but if that's what other people are gonna resort too you can either jump on the bandwagon or man up.

For one thing, I'm afraid I'm not a GM.  Also, you're just being a cunt because you were directly involved as well, so why don't you shut your mouth and stop trying to pretend you're not powergaming like mad nowadays.

Also, I was taking a break from the fucking game and should have been in the void.  You really don't think Aikao would have waken up during all that shit?

And I didn't have any plots involving him anymore, because the GMs didn't want there to be.  Why don't you ask some of the other players who were involved in said plots and were hoping for some resolution before they were shut down without closure?

I powergame like mad dude. I don't rp at all. I mean c'mon seriously...me? Contribute ot the game? NEVER!!!

It sounds like you have a serious bone to pick with the GM's. I suggest you start there. After all...they're the ones who let us crazy players do these crazy things.

Also, can you please define powergaming. I think it's important. Seriously.

Toodles, you sexy beast.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 7:35 pm on Feb. 14, 2009[brAlso, can you please define powergaming. I think it's important. Seriously.

Killing newbies over and over without reason?  Forcing player characters straight from the gates out of the game for weeks?  Why don't you ask me a more difficult question?

Oh. Yeah, I TOTALLY did that.

After offering said newbie spit on me after I offered him a job...and sold me out to the jakes...

IC reasons, bro. Don't play like a big boy if you can't deal with it. I've been down that road...a million times.

If anybody has a right to be pissed at the GMs, it's Aikao.
But really...I always thought you did great things for the game, and I didn't mean to end any plots by doing what we did.
At one point, I was going to leave him on a rooftop and drive away.
Who knows what would've happened then?
Yes he probably should've been in the Void.
But i tried to put him in a situation he could get out of...and had before.
I thought you'd approve. I am sorry that I was wrong. I also really wish you were still able to play, though maybe you needed to try a new character.

Don't blame me if your perception of reality is skewed.

Well, clearly we've learned alot from this thread.

Everyone hates to lose.
The winner wants to be able to win.

I'm really glad you have a new character. Oldbies suck. I wanna perm them all.

But yeah dude. As I've come to understand it...as an extremely aggrevated person in your position only a few days ago. Cyberpunk...get over it. There is no honor here. IC or OOC. The community is a fucking joke. We don't care about your feelings, your rp, nothing. We want to shatter your fucking soul into a million peices for the sake of...jesus...I don't even know why we do this.

So you can either play and get over it...or bitch...on the bitch board...or both. I like to do both.

I've always been a big fan of you RP. However overbearing it became as you turned into the monster of uber destruction. I've enjoyed being your outlet of frustration IC'ly and OOC'ly though. Its good stuff. We should be valentines.

Since you're so set on making me out to be the one at fault here, Reef, let me refresh your memory.

He spit on you after you had already had him thrown off a roof and beaten to shit.

He turned to the Judges after you stole everything from him, KO'd him several times, and left him in the desert.  Oh, and it was 4 weeks of no one to RP with later after he finally managed to get back in.

Tell me, if it had actually been a new player do you think they would have stayed?  And I still honestly have no idea why the hell you had him thrown off the roof to begin with.  Was it because he was being rowdy and mouthy in the bar?  I can understand a beatdown resulting from that, and maybe some theft as well, but come -on-.  That hard hello was a bit too hard if you ask me.

I'm not saying its your fault, man. I'm saying I reacted to IC behavior in a IC fashion. Did I got overboard? Uhh. YEAH.

Is this typical of me? Hrm...I don't think so but I've been wrong before.

Their were strong reactions to my actions, dude. Fucked up alot of stuff. You should be proud.

But by no means am I trying to declare myself innocent. I simply try and do way more good then bad I do for the game. In your scenario, I fucking fucked up your life beyond all recognition.

If it makes you feel better I'm sorry. I had no idea it was you but I did realize it was an experienced person acting a fool. I also expected some GM interference to recover your punk ass. Which clearly didn't happen.

Although, I was approached by a GM about it a few days afterward. So...I dunno.

My bad?

Just watch yourself and don't play like a goddamn MUD.  From my perspective that's exactly what it seems like you've been doing, and I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.  Fucking up someone's life is all good and swell, but tearing a newbie who was still sleeping in the coffins out of the game for 4 weeks is just ridiculous.

The reason I'm pissed about that is that you did not -know- it was me.  I'm saying if it was almost anyone else, there would probably be one less player on the MOO right now.

I know I powerplayed as D alot, it's just too easy. That's why in part (I figured out I do have internet access in afghanistan) I agreed(somewhat :p) to putting him where he is. In a few weeks when I'm out of this shithole, maybe I'll pick him back uip ( I have justified reason to) or start anew. Point of this ramble is once you're on top of something, it is easy to slip up and get complacent, as in killing people for eyefucking you.

Quote: from ReeferMadness on 4:47 pm on Feb. 14, 2009[br]WThere is no honor here. IC or OOC. The community is a fucking joke. We don't care about your feelings, your rp, nothing. We want to shatter your fucking soul into a million peices for the sake of...jesus...I don't even know why we do this.

I care!  I love everybody.

Damnit...

Welcome back by the way.  Glad to have you.

I love how you say that it's soo bad reef the worst thing you can possibly do to someone, wasn't that what you said?  

But when it comes to revenge, well, it's all good then.  Way to stick with your convictions.  Your real "honorable" as you've accused me of not being.   I love the "well I think it's wrong, but if someone else is going to do it to me then I got no problem doing it back" attitude.  

Unfortunately I hope you don't do it with the hopes of making me care, or changing my attitude.  I still think, as I said before that in "some situations" it's perfectly fine.  Now if theres someone out there with the power to break into cubes and they just do it all the goddamn time, then that's not one of those situations IMHO.  

Leaves one to question your IC/OOC motives tho, you were clearly pist on the board, as was your son.  You clearly think it was something that shoudn't be done, but you are going to do it.  My motives were clearly IC, I couldn't solve my problem head on, I wasn't going to just give up, so I tried something different.    

Feel free to rant away and justify your actions to yourself, as I know you will, but in the end the argument will only be with yourslef, as I said my position is unchanged,  I just want the entire community to be aware of every aspect of the situation.  And I won't be responding to any of the hate that has been directed tward me, or any to come.  

You have this deep seated hatred tward "old" characters.  You said to Aikao that having the oldest, longest lived character is disgusting.   Well your only a few rungs down on that ladder boyo.  So instead of berading him, or anyone else why don't you consider your own RP and let everyone else decide when and what to do with their char.  Your opinion is noted, thank you for contributing.   Funny thing is I had a retirement plot half decided on until someone gave me something interesting to do with my char.    

I think it's wrong, man. I've made my feelings clear. However, I'm not gonna limit my actions by my moral compass in a game where one clearly doesn't exist.

I was wrong. I will no longer restrain myself.

Hate! Hate! Hate!

Did it cause he could. Why stop there, let's do it again and again.  We got IC motivation for it.

Don't log off, ever.


=] You are obviously upset with such a long post.  It's too bad you're still resisting.