Reset Password
Existing players used to logging in with their character name and moo password must signup for a website account.
- Waiguoren_Guest 1m [Sinn Street]
- Atheran 40s
- Veleth 17s
- GrimButterCat 1s
- DeLiSe 7m
- deskoft 3m
- Dystopia2102 3m
- BigLammo 31s
- NoShame 31s
- Grig 9m
- JohnWilliams 7s
- sukebug 1s
- Hivemind 4m
- Baguette 16s bitchmade
- CookieJarvis 31m
- SoulTune 2m
- BCingyou 9s
- Wonderland 40s
- Slyter 1h
- MrJDucky2 3h
a Mench 1h Doing a bit of everything.
- asdronin 14h
- ReeferMadness 2m May the bridges I burn light the way.
And 23 more hiding and/or disguised
Connect to Sindome @ moo.sindome.org:5555 or just Play Now

stop pickpocketing at differing sublocs
No you can't pickpocket me from the bar if I'm at the table

Currently you can basically avoid RP suspicions by sitting at the bar ordering a drink, and pickpocketing people around the room.

I'd say that this shouldn't be allowed as it breaks any kind of suspension of disbelief if I'm seated at a table and someone picks my pocket from the floor of the bar, or even sitting at the bar.

You should have to either share sub-locations to be able to pick pocket someone or have a pose of getting near to the table or bar to interact with someone. Your arms would have to be Inspector Gadget long to not even have to get near to me to pick my pocket. And the allowance of this as a mechanic is intensely frustrating as it violates the RP immersion of the world.

Reed Richards need to make a living after Fantastic Four movie bombed, you know.

All jokes aside, yeah. It's wrong that people can avoid suspicion like that.

I don't think you should be able to steal while sitting (if this is even possible) but the idea of having to share a table to steal with them is really silly. I could absolutely rob you blind IRL without telegraphing to you that I was approaching your table or sitting at it.

Also it would lead to people using bars/tables as anti-theft armor and metaing even more than they already do every time they got robbed.

This post needs a bigger thumbs up button. Oh wait.
@vera I think what RG is having a problem with is someone sitting at the bar and robbing people at the other end of the room or in a completely different sublocation, like sitting at a table, without moving from said bar, which makes no sense distance-wise, without RPing getting anywhere in range of the target.

I mean I understand but without cybernetic long-arms or telepathic powers, that makes no sense to me that someone can dip from that long a distance.

That's exactly my problem Madguy. Thank you for clarifying. I mean if you like change your @tp me to be nearby the table and I don't notice it, yeah I'm fucked there, I wasn't paying attention. But coming in sitting at the bar, and I'm at the table, or vice versa. And suddenly you magic my money from my pocket... That makes no sense.
I think your request is one of realism wherein the implementation of pickpocketing is one based on game balance. Up until very recently, very few pickpockets thrived and most were roflstomp'd into oblivion shortly after CG. The ones that did thrive were well-know and nearly every time someone was pickpocketed - they would be accused.

The skill/stats requirement in additional to the RP balancing act to be a successful pickpocket is difficult enough. Let it be.

By the new rules for hoodies, in general, we can't tell who the person is, and they can dodge bans at bars just by wearing a hoodie. This prevents conflict RP from forming. This is bad because it's against what the @newbie section about roleplaying says, which is that RP should coincide and work with with mechanics.

There is no RP in, "Hooded %DESCRIPTION %GENDER sits down at bar"=5 minutes later>"Hooded %DESCRIPTION %GENDER stands up from the bar.

hooded %DESCRIPTION %GENDER goes Northwest"=>You count chyen the moment they leave, because OOCly you know they were a thief and are confirming it. your count finds some missing.

Tell me what I could have reacted too in character there? I had no reason to suspect that that person, because they were hooded, was a thief, because as Cerb has said, there's thousands of %DESCRIPTION %GENDERs in hoodies in the mix... And they were across the room from me. There's literally no way WITHOUT meta to suspect them. And that is bad. Because it's roleplaying not coinciding with mechanics. Or rather roleplaying exploiting mechanics.

You didn't even see it happen IC, you're just making assumptions. /thread
If you want to notice someone approaching you to steal from you, find out what skills and stats defend against stealing and improve them. It isn't terribly difficult.
You shouldn't even suspect a PC in a crowded room. IRL you wouldn't pick out some random stranger and suspect them of dipping you in a crowded bar.
When pickpocketing there's multiple checks...

1. A check if you spot it.

2. A check if any other PC's spot it - they can tell you, can't they?

3. A check if any other NPC's spot it. If an NPC spots it, they will automagically tell you.

Deal with it.

No not /thread, because the mechanics of the thing still need to be addressed, there needs to be more in depth ways to counter thieves than just, "Raise perception till you have an utterly ridiculous score." And "if you didn't see it, you don't know if happened," That's not interesting, that prevents paranoia RP, that is a purely mechanical construct. There are ways beyond just spotting a thief that allows you to discern if you've been robbed, like counting any time a hood leaves the room.
How do you know you were pickpocketed by that person? Or even before you entered the establishment and sat down? Do you want dips to shoot up a signal flare and do cartwheels out the door?
Beyond that, I can know it happens OOCly, and not let it affect me ICly... That's possible, and it irks me OOCly, to have my money magically disappear to someone purely exploiting a system and not roleplaying that system.
How does it prevent 'paranoia RP?' You will know something was stolen from you if it was important enough, just won't know -who- stole it from you.
"Beyond that, I can know it happens OOCly, and not let it affect me ICly... That's possible, and it irks me OOCly, to have my money magically disappear to someone purely exploiting a system and not roleplaying that system."

What Mephisto is trying to say is that, if you're sitting in a crowded bar ICly packed with bodies, you aren't going to look and watch every single person who approaches you. There will be a volley of bodies just floating around all around you. Are you going to notice all of them approaching you, whoever approached you, and what they look like? There will be hundreds and hundreds of characters there with you.

Meph is right in the sense is that you simply didn't ICly see it happen, it happened, and you didn't realize.

I count before I enter bars to make sure I have enough for drinks, and as I'm about to leave. That's how I know it can happen in the bar. I count before I buy a drink as I'm considering it...

Now instead of quibbling on these details and trying to deconstruct my actions, deconstruct the actual point.

Which is that it makes no sense for every thief to be reed richards and able to reach across rooms with impunity and scoop anyones shit at will.

"Which is that it makes no sense for every thief to be reed richards and able to reach across rooms with impunity and scoop anyones shit at will."

When you pick-pocket someone, it's assumed they get close to you, to obviously, pickpocket said item. What's the difference between the check telling you "PC X pickpocketed you" and "PC X suspiciously approached you and walked away"? They'll serve the same literal purpose.

I can agree with maybe having to stand up before doing the 'pickpocket' command, but the rest is moot.

It makes no difference. If the system didn't tell you, you don't know who did it. If it did, you know who did it. That's all that matters. You shouldn't be suspecting random people anyway just because they happen to be PCs from an OOC perspective.
See my problem is I've had dippers do me really good, and use actual RL pick pocketing tactics on my character. It was great RP. And I've applauded them OOCly for it. Laughing uproariously because of the tricks. Even if ICly, I was made a little more paranoid by it.

Standing up is fine that's literally all I want. I want them to have to put some effort into the RP. Don't let people who pickpock, pickpocket people in a sublocation that isn't their own. Going from main to sub fine kind of, but sub to other sub location shouldn't be possible.

I can agree it is meta to reach across the room. I can also agree you should be standing (but then again what if your target is sitting with you?) but I think this is one of those things you kinda gotta have to chaulk up to "Mix life".
It could make sense, just like the 'search' command, to have to be standing to do the pickpocket command. That's all I can agree on, but other than that, pickpocket works as intended and the system/triggers telling you you've been pocketed works well enough.
We don't have sublocation code and we have much better things to work on. This will have to be self-policed. It doesn't give any IC advantage anyway, unless you're alone in an apartment and sitting far away from each other, in which case it's much easier to report.
I 100% get that some situations feel unsatisfying because you don't get the great RP out of it you could but...that's just how the game goes sometimes, whether it's pickpocketing or dying or losing a job or your rival fucking you over (and you'd have had a blast if they'd just RP'ed it out more richly).

I get where mechanically the post is coming from and kinda agree but like others have said the meta-ness around suspecting dippers is already easy enough it just feels balance-wise like a tradeoff that would make one thing too much worse at the expense of making something else feel a little slightly more realistic.

Again I'm fine about getting dipped, #mixlife I'm not fine that had I gotten the pickpocket notification, I still wouldn't have a reason IC to believe it, because that person woulda been on the other side of the room. It feels like an exploit because of that. If I look up from having my pocket picked, am I gunna suspect the guy whose been sitting at the bar this entire time?
"Again I'm fine about getting dipped, #mixlife I'm not fine that had I gotten the pickpocket notification, I still wouldn't have a reason IC to believe it, because that person woulda been on the other side of the room. It feels like an exploit because of that. If I look up from having my pocket picked, am I gunna suspect the guy whose been sitting at the bar this entire time?"

If you get the pickpocket notification, you assume ICly that you see them approaching you, taking your stuff, and going back to wherever they were. They don't magically teleport behind you then back to where they were, or your belongings into their hand - the game will assume they get up and approach you to do it, albeit in a sneaky way.

And if you see this happen, then you see them approach you, and try to take your stuff, then go back to wherever they were. Then you can react ICly, accordingly.
I think a few things to consider. The first, no location is only filled with PCs. There are lots of ‘ambient’ people milling about, so I’ve always figured that even if I’m in a room with only one other known PC, there’s probably a good crowd of ‘unknown’ people around me. There can even be unseen PCs, for that matter. That said, it’s not that big a leap to think that a skilled dipper couldn’t get up, mingle through the crowd, dip you and circle back around to their seat without you seeing them in that kind of environment. It’s perhaps a ‘stretch’ but not completely unbelievable. They don’t have to emote doing that. Trying to make them do so seems a bit meta to me, because then they are having to emote actions that, by nature, are covert by and the mechanics in place for these actions handle the ability to be seen/caught/heard.

As for the need to ‘stand’ – there are lots of times in the game where my Character might not stand or may do something that perhaps I should have ‘roleplayed out’ but it can sometimes get overlooked in the larger RP going on. Meaning, not every action my PC does is going to be emoted but it doesn’t mean that I did or didn’t do it?

And, remember. Your PC can accuse anyone they want and RP that they believe so-and-so is robbing them blind. You may be wrong, and there may be consequences to that RP, but as far as I know, you can still do that. Just expect backlash if you can’t explain your accusations ICly.

If the code tells you it was them, you don't need to suspect it, you know.
Understood, but then my problem becomes how did they do it... If I clearly noticed them... There's my IC question, and for an OOC question, how is the effort I put in OOCly to regain the Chyen, of writing a pose, informing security, making a scene, building a case, equivalent of the dipper who typed pickpocket $name?
Well that's just rude, because I am enjoying this game. I wouldn't be putting in the effort on something like this, if I weren't.
Understood, but then my problem becomes how did they do it... If I clearly noticed them... There's my IC question, and for an OOC question, how is the effort I put in OOCly to regain the Chyen, of writing a pose, informing security, making a scene, building a case, equivalent of the dipper who typed pickpocket $name?

They dipped you before they sat down or they stood up, dipped you and sat back down. If they dipped you and you didn't see it, you didn't see them standing up and sitting back down. It's not rocket surgery.

How is your effort of regaining the chyen, writing a pose, informing security, making a scene, building a case, equivalent of the risk of the dipper and the time they put into developing their skill?

"Understood, but then my problem becomes how did they do it... If I clearly noticed them... There's my IC question, and for an OOC question, how is the effort I put in OOCly to regain the Chyen, of writing a pose, informing security, making a scene, building a case, equivalent of the dipper who typed pickpocket $name?"

I was pickpocketed before even though I noticed I was dipped IRL. Just because you realize it happened doesn't mean you instantly stop it from happening - suddenly, your wallet is gone, and you realize the person, with your hawkish eyes, who was just behind you and is now sitting back at their bar was the one who did it because you felt and saw it happen personally.

Pickpocketing isn't easy, you're assuming it's just easy to type "pickpocket x" and voila, easy money. Nope.

The problem I'm having is assuming another characters specific actions is explicitly meta, Meph. I can't know what they've done, unless they've posed that they've done it. And I've seen that pose.

It's quite clearly not, because the risk is low, with how easily hoods disguise you. I can't know your identity if you are in a hood, and can easily lose you in a crowd. If you manage to pick pocket me on the streets, are wearing a hood, and take off, I have no recourse. Other than beating the shit out of everyone wearing a hood, of which there are thousands. It's a catch 22.

"It's quite clearly not, because the risk is low, with how easily hoods disguise you. I can't know your identity if you are in a hood, and can easily lose you in a crowd. If you manage to pick pocket me on the streets, are wearing a hood, and take off, I have no recourse. Other than beating the shit out of everyone wearing a hood, of which there are thousands. It's a catch 22."

Hoods aren't ominious, super-spy 007 items that make you forever hidden. Disguises can fall off and there are a lot of mechanics/checks involved in keeping your disguise up while performing actions. If the PC put UE and time into building his/her PC purely based on disguising, pickpocketing, and thievery, obviously they'll have an easy time with pickpocketing.

Your arguement is basically saying that we should nerf long blades because it's too "overpowered" with characters like Seven Ecks. No, they're built that way, and they're good at it. They've put effort into being good at what they do.

"The problem I'm having is assuming another characters specific actions is explicitly meta, Meph. I can't know what they've done, unless they've posed that they've done it. And I've seen that pose.

[...]"

Then stop assuming that. And pickpocketing is already balanced. This has gone off topic from the initial idea. This hasn't been a problem for 20 years of SD roleplaying. I invite you to make a dip character and see how easy it seems for you. I think you'd be trying to make changes so that people stop being meta the other way around, like you are being now, and that you'd feel like it's too hard.

That's not at all what I'm saying, hang on let me get the forum thread up in which cerb says people have no reason to suspect one hooded individual isn't another hooded one. Even with good perception skills.
Yes, you should respect disguises, that's their point.
Also so here's my question here, thinking of logical extents, it's okay to walk into a room hooded, spam pickpocket on everyone, and then walk out of a crowded room, without ever posing or interacting?
You have no idea how thievery mechanics work if you think that's even possible.
Yes because I'm not allowed to ask about them. And I've had this happen, most of those who got dipped were Immy's. So please, explain to me is that or is that not meta?
No.
I'm not understanding this argument at all.

If you hate getting dipped, raise relevant skills to stop getting dipped.

If you hate the fact that the disguised people steal your stuff, then leave, get good at noticing them taking your stuff, then stop them from leaving.

If you want to know who they are after you caught them dipping you, take their disguise. Kill them. Knock them out and take it off. Grapple them and have your buddy remove it.

If you want them to stop pick pocketing forever, perm them.

You assume being hooded instantly gives you a free pass. Disguises have skill checks involved in them while performing actions - I've stated this before. Just because you wear a hood doesn't mean your identity will be revealed while you go on about your day.

If the PC spent UE and time into perfecting disguising, then yes, what you're saying is true - but it's not as easy as you assume to be. Like Meph said, play a dip yourself and see how hard it is. We're saying that if the PC spent effort and skilling up thievery and subterfuge based skills, that's their character build and you can't change that. You're assuming every immy out of the gate or non-focused character can put a hood on and just go around doing shit without having their identity revealed.

It doesn't work that way, chum.

Just because you wear a hood doesn't mean your identity will -not- be revealed while you go on about your day.

Fixed, sorry.

Playing a dip is extremely hard... and I can say this with first hand experience. I was at a point where earning 1 point in thievery was extremely expensive and even then, a shitload of players caught me and it was an extremely risky job. Maybe your character just happens to be shite at perception and you as the player don't know how it works or why it works. There's no need to suggest a change in the mechanics (added to that, an impossible one) to prevent what you perceive as meta when is in reality the nature of this game by virtue of being text based.
What you describe in both instances is called "playing the game". If you derive nothing from any of that beyond frustration, find another game to play, since you're clearly not enjoying this one.

This is the kind of response that turns off new players, believe it or not. You'd be amazed the kind of hurdles that people have to overcome to adjust to Sindome, it's a rough world and it takes time for that to sink in.

My understanding of the points is thus:

If I am sitting at a table and someone is sitting at the bar and that person at the bar pick pockets me, and I don't notice it, then I count and notice money missing, the last person I'm going to suspect is the person who has literally been sitting at the bar the whole time because there was no IC indicator that they stood up, walked over to my table, and got close enough to pick pocket me.

That's a fair argument. I think any pickpockets who are doing that kind of thing should stop. I am pretty sure it's possible to pick pocket while sitting down, but if you're pickpocketing people who are physically far away from your character, that's pretty meta and an abuse of the system. Don't do that.

I'm interested in hearing ways we might mitigate that without having to deal with sub locations.

I think that this is mostly a matter of self policing and trying to be a good RPer. And helping each other learn in a positive way.

If you pose or do something (like sitting down) that puts distance between you and another character in the room (due to their posing or @tp or seating), try and respect it when you RP. Pose calling out loudly to them when you speak to them. Stand up before you pick their pockets. Pose crossing the room before you whisper to them.

I know for a fact that this can be troublesome. I've forgotten that I was sitting before. I've poses standing up but forgot the stand command. Mistakes happen. But I try and to consider the room description, ambient population and my character's current situation in relation to others when reacting to them or acting on them. I think we should all try this.

I also think that you should try and pair poses with changing your @tp - especially if the @tp change reflects a change of location, positioning or activity. Just an @tp alone will inform people if they look again or enter the room but those already present have no idea of the change unless you give them one.

Also do your best to be generous. I mean, if someone walks in, sits down, then stands up and leaves and after all this is done I notice I am missing flash I will try and be generous and assume that either they were not at all responsible (maybe there was another character that got me?) or that they got me as they entered or left. I am not going to assume that they are power gaming bakas.

Hell. Even if I am sitting in a booth across the room and they are at the bar and they are sitting at the bar and I get the "You notice XXX going through your pockets) message that clearly identified them, I will assume it was a mistake on their part. Mention it oocly maybe "Hey... You forgot to stand before dipping me!" or mention it on xhelp so they can give them a reminder. But only if I KNOW. I'll also probably react as if they came over and dipped me and I caught them. and keep the RP flowing.

I'm just saying that there are too many possibilities between poses and seating and location differences to easily answer with a quick coded solution and in most cases things are legit or simple mistakes. But we can try and help each other become better players.

We do not define sublocations as a matter of code. There is not way currently to stop people from being meta and ignoring that they are on the other side of the room, aside from us saying 'that ain't cool'. Which is what I'm saying. If you ignore the room you are in, and pickpocket someone that is not within your reach, that is not OK.

At the same time, folks need to recognize that this is the Mix and pick pocketing happens. Don't wanna lose your chy? Don't carry large amounts around. Pickpocketing is part of the game, and is acceptable, just needs to be done with an eye toward what is actually possible within the context of the scene.