Towards Variable Material Worth

It becomes more interesting when you have to make sure you are using the right kind of cloth, as opposed to using the same one for say, an expensive silk dress, and then later using it for a pair of socks.

Then, it would also make it a bit easier for a tailor to decide on the price of an article of clothing.  Want a cheap shirt? Use a crapy material and charge 'em cheap. If you want something nicer, then you're going to get a better fabric, one thats worth more and you'll see that in how much you have to pay for that shirt.

But if this nicer material comes out..then what? What about the people who have 'nice' clothes?

And yes Murphy, a well-descripted rag is better than an horribly descripted Armani suit. At least with the rag you can wipe down the bartop. :P

Quote: from Protagonist on 6:11 pm on June 28, 2003[br]

Furthermore, if players are describing clothes brilliantly, but their character is not a tailor, and shouldn't be able to create brilliant clothing, they'd have to realise that they are acting OOC and halt the production, or otherwise purposely make the clothing not seem as good.

Not at all what I'm saying.

I'll give an example as to a piece of clothing I've desced elseMU*:

A drab olive green colored, loose fitting jumpsuit covers %p entire body. The durable, rough fabric is covered here and there in old, slightly faded oil spots, and the entire jumpsuit looks old and worn. It's covered in pockets - two at the breast, two on each thigh, and a couple of smaller ones nearer the knees, some of them with their bottoms cut off, making many hoops for putting tools in, if the need were to arise. %N wears the jumpsuit with sleeves rolled up, allowing %p elbows, forearms and wrists freer movement. Across the back of the jumpsuit is stenciled in fading, white letters, 'USAF'.

Now see, this is a crappy piece of old dirty clothing. But it's fairly well desced (at least, I think it is). And OOCly, I'd rather wear some ratty piece of well-desced clothing than a shittily desced piece of fancy clothing. Should crappy tailors be restricted in how much detail they can put in about the rattyness of said clothing?

:knob:

Quote: from Protagonist on 6:43 pm on June 28, 2003[br]
Also, tailors need to make their customers happy and satisfied with their clothing to survive. People aren't going to buy badly described clothing, and that's perfectly IC.
As for the other side…of clothing that is ICly bad, but OOCly good, well tailors don't produce that stuff...the stains etc would generally be player made modifications under 'modify your clothing for RP'.

Not necessarily, I remember a time when it was in fashion to buy pre-torn/frayed jeans. Pre-faded jeans are also selling pretty well these days. Might me 'in' to have stained clothing for some people, who knows?

Not Cyberkeanu.

Quality of material and skill of the tailor can be used to reflect the fundamental value of a product in the coded sense. The quality of it's description can easily be left out as a coded consideration and just be handled as a desirability factor. Just because a suit is Armani (codedly having a high value because of good materials and quality constructin (skill)) doesn't mean -I- am going to like that particular look (the description). Thus, I won't buy it... thus, tailors who write crap descs won't get business, no matter how good the material or their skill is. Making a garment (tailor skill) and actually designing it (the desc, ultimately) are two very different things. Would you wear half of the stuff you see on the Paris catwalks?

Yep.

is that the most important, next thing that should be taken care of now?
or
is it something that would be really cool to have, but not as important as other things currently in development?

my vote, though a cool, awesome idea, the current system works well, and there is other stuff currently being worked on that I would rather see implimented before new fabrics and whatnot.

wacha think?

As for the greater scheme of things, depending on how they're planning to implement it, I don't envisage this as being a -major- task. Indeed, it not being TailorMOO, the system doesn't warrant a vast and complex system of designing, cutting, stitching and finishing materials to a finished product, but instead a fairly simple system of checks, requirments and message setting. As Kevlar already mentioned, pretty much everything they need in terms of the armour system is already there, as is all the code for clothing, wearing, etc.

Again, dependant on the exact implementation they plan, I'm quite confident that said system could easily be implemented with almost minimal effort at the hands of Johnny (and/or Kevlar). Establishing and designing the system would probably be the most time consuming part, I don't imagine it requiring a great deal of actual code.

But that's just my uninformed opinion.

(Edited by TAFKAR at 7:38 pm on June 29, 2003)

Now, if your style is cheap, its not really stylish as much as it is lame poser fashion.

Part of style is having that kick ass looking trench actually worth the value you're trying to convey by having it have this amazing description.

The shitty material -should- have a poorer description than the finer material. Granted, that would be left up to the tailor, but we'd hope they'd apply that logic.

I don't think it should be implemented unless the new materials are going to have actual in-game worth, because if you rob a corpie who is wearing a fancy Armani suit, you oughtta be able to sell it on the sly, dammit.

It will have in game worth, and definitely from players. Johnny stated that the price shown when inspected would be higher, which was the whole idea….an expensive suit shouldn't be made from inexpensive fabric. Which, as Johnny stated would mean that people would have to not write descriptions making clothing seem great, when it's value is low. That could either be admin policed, or as I stated previously a key word search could be used, to disallow the word 'quality' etc from appearing in a shitty piece of material�s messages.

Clothing would sell at a market, because they would have real price...that could fetch rather high, as the clothing could for example be as protective as a NeXus trench coat. I think Ty that you have caught onto the messages and properties, but not the value...

Even if they weren't accepted at a market that would also be okay in my view, as many IC reasons can be given for hawkers not accepting clothing. Really one would be looking to selling it on to players anyway right?

With regard to the words being contained in the name, the type of material would not have to be the first word. I don't know if you literally meant that, but it would simply have to feature there, as otherwise the brand name could not precede the item of clothing's name, which is the current standard such as N.Kwan Originals <item name, to include type of material word>

Also, since when can a player create a diamond ring? Materials being made into items other than clothing, and not coded items, is to aid RP....not as a source for miraculously creating diamond rings and selling them off... A player wouldn't buy it, and neither would someone at the market...
Being able to make guitars or amps etc is to allow a performer to perform; as such coded items aren't available to them. I created a computing book for a character of mine, so I could justify spending UE on programming whilst RPing reading it, and to act as an RP prop.
To accommodate for this, generic material would still have to exist, until(if ever) a replacement system was created. This is because obviously one can't create a guitar with the word 'silk' having to show up in inspect and @describe and @worn messages. The generic material would be of a low value as it currently is (well the same material would be used ;)) and so it rightfully wouldn't be able to be sold at markets etc, as they are RP props, not ways of making money through for example magically being able to smith metal etc. It is accepted that they can just appear when used as props, as they are simply an extension of RP, although stories like 'I smuggled the book through immigration checks' are good to RP to explain it.

But that isn't really going to make sense either

I should have structured this, but seeing your robbing the corpie statement again I think of: currently if one buys a tailored suit for 7k or something, because it could only be created with the corpie paying that much it is worth a lot, and can be sold to other players. Johnny stated how this idea came about, and the only change now is that the fabrics aren't pretending to be more expensive, but are actually more expensive to reflect that price. From that comes clothing with defence modifiers which also increases price etc.
Anyway, I should have organised this better, it's a mess of a response and I'm a little unsure whether I communicated my thoughts correctly, but I think that many seem to not be understanding all about this. Some don't seem to understand its significance either *eyes Jotun and Lotus* which simply points to a lack of understand of RP and game mechanics, and essentially the term 'character'. ;)

With regard to priority I believe that it should get top priority due to the efficiency at which it can be implemented as stated by Rastus. If implemented now, it could be done very fast, after which greater projects etc can be focused on, but also players would be benefiting immensely and from very little investment.

I think that I had some more thoughts on the matter, but from that post and others if you care to re-read them, you should understand my view on the matter. :)

(Edited by Protagonist at 6:52 am on June 29, 2003)

okay, so on the -surface- this seems like a cosmetic change BUT the mods to the material would add some much needed reality and more flexibility to combat. right now it�s �are they wearing body armour?� or �are they naked and vulnerable as a puppies belly?� with nexus to fill the gap? (relatively speaking) it would also open up certain economic aspects to materials. i mean, used clothing would be worth something concrete.. and would be bought for what it is rather then what it can magically be poofed into�

if generic cheap materials stayed as they are, as a �cheap cloth.� you could bring back the dispenser, charging for a bolt of material and limit how much a chare can purchase a month? rationing� reds a war zone as it is� why�s there no god damned rationing? ;) vodka flows like wine! er�) anyhoo, chars could still modify this cloth fully and show off their home sewing �fashion sense.� can�t forget the people that modify already existing clothing to suit their needs, and by modify i mean turning a pair of pants into a skirt, a dress into a scarf, a shirt into fabric to sew a bag from� -not- turning  a pair of cotton socks into a vinyl trenchoat. ;) �. er�don�t get me started on cyberpunk fashion� ;)

out of curiosity, is implementing cyberware comparable (in difficulty./time) to modifying the behaviour of 'material objects?' is there anything code wise and such that both share and depend on?

but to answer your question kevlar. for my �current- char and for very good reasons, i'd want these material changes to happen before cyberware happened. i�m sure other people have different answers. players who have characters that would benefit (for lack of a better term) if cyberware existed would want cyberware to exist before anything else. but… i'm sure that the same can be said for taxis, matrix�

*vanishes* �

You can't have different materials with different costs with a justification of it.

there are still things that are half-done (johnny no offense here I know you work your ass off)  taxi's for instance sit around red but I was told they don't work correctly.  cyberware would be not only cooler, but also much more CP, and even though I'm in no hurry to see the matrix (just my opinion) even that would be more CP.

in my opinion the ranged combat, throw and dual wield, all sound like fundamentily more important things to finish.  

correct me If I'm wrong, but e-note printers don't completely work right either do they?

not that all of these may be cooler than groovy clothes, but I think that some of the things I've mentioned may be more…. (for lack of a better description) CP oriented.

that's just me though, not to mention there's no real problem with the colthing system the way it is, aside from the fact that we would all like to get our money's worth out of nicer clothes.

yes It would be cool, no It shouldn't jump to the front of the line.

but dual wield is listed as "in progress" on the board, so I'm assuming It doesn't work, if it does, then I was wrong, very wrong.  

but the taxi thing, cyberware and matrix are all still valid.  espically looking at our game from a CP standpoint.

let me say that I'm also assuming that making clothes is going to be a task that requires some time, if it can be done quickly without any delay to things ALREADY in progress.  than by all means go ahead.

The argument?

While I (and my character) would love to have clothing that …

looks good
I can re-sell to other characters (based solely on that character's particular taste and style. �If I don't like Armani, I'm not giving you 2 chyen for it no matter what the inspect message says)
protects me should I wander into the middle of some fight.
gives another PC a -more- viable job

I (and I believe a majority of the characters out there) would have more of a use for at least one or two of the following ...

eyes that can see in the dark (Infra red or thermographic, your choice.)
telescopic vision
cell phones or 2-way radios integrated into thier head.
speed healing nanites
armor woven directly into your skin
super sensitive hearing
integrated digital recording (and playback) of audio and video
hidden storage
integrated data storage

These are just a -few- things that if created would benefit -everyone- not just combat type characters as the implication has been earlier in the thread.

A few other misc. thoughts:

Player apathy - Tash worked her ass off to make something of the tailoring profession and made some absolutely kick-ass shit. �It was largely ignored then, and I'm not sure that after an initial rush of orders, this wouldn't become the same way.

Crime - Adding cyberware to the game will create black markets that wouldn't exist at the same level as with materials. �This opens up areas for players, as well as for richer plot materials for the GMs

Player base - I think that having cyberware be available will be a bigger draw for gaining new players, than making more types of materials available and giving them value in the markets.

Theme - Yes, style over substance, it was even in my sig for quite a while, but, sooner or later you need something to back that style up, and I will point you to my current sig.

Cyberpunk is .. "An unholy alliance of the technical world and the world of organized dissent"
-Bruce Sterling - Introduction to Mirrorshades.

Sterling and Gibson are widely regarded as being the fathers of the cyberpunk genre. �I don't know about you, but I don't see a whole lot of organized dissent among us players. �Maybe if we put some cyber into the punks here, more people might decide to rebel -actively- against something.

This entire thread, the fact it's continued this long, is a great example of why SD is on a low-swing right now.

* The fact that this many people care this much about such a trivial aspect of a Cyberpunk MOO.

* The fact that it's even entered the minds of -anyone- that this should even come close to taking priority over cyberware, much less 500 other much, much, MUCH more important things.

I think we all know why Lillith thinks this is a big deal. But before we start taking care of things that would give certain players 'more to do', how about we focus on things that will give a LOT of players 'more to do', actually be related to the theme in a relevant manner, and might actually bring in motivated/creative/intelligent/CP/active players, which we seem to be needing in a real, real big way. If this thread hasn't shown that, I don't know what will.

That is all.

Quote: from Max on 3:07 am on July 1, 2003[br]
Taxi's
Damage to inanimate objects
Stunning victims
Trash weapons

*blinks*
In fact, are you sure that you were using that list to support your case?

That is all.

(Edited by Protagonist at 3:27 am on July 1, 2003)

I'd love for anyone to attempt to argue different.

My character is very unlikely to ever want or need the use of cyberware, but that does not change the fact that cyberware will have a much broader and longer lasting impact on the game. Should cyberware be top priority? Not necessarily, but if you have to stop and think if VMW should be a higher priority, NO.

So let's assume VMW would take very little time compared to any of the other more important projects. Would it be better to just go on and do this and have something now, and -then- focus on the other projects? I don't think so, because then it will be another quick project, then another, and cyberware and it will be even longer before cyberware or similar projects get done. There needs to be less focus on small additions and little tweaks here and there, and some -known- progress on the more important things.

Designing the best system for this or that that's ever been seen is useless if most of the players are gone by the time you roll it out. Keep the project list on the website updated, tell people more about the progress of the things they've wanted for so long, and for Christ's sake, stop getting caught up on the projects of lesser importance.

  come on, clothing is important, but when is the last time you watched *insert cyberpunk movie here*  or read *insert CP book here*  and saw them standing around admiring eachothers clothes, there are snappy dressers, don't get me wrong, but as far as importance to an overall CP storyline who would argue that cyberware is not more important than a more complex clothing system?

Quote: from TAFKAR on 5:38 pm on July 1, 2003[br]
Overdose code and effects messages for drugs: Effects messages isn't a code issue, thus irrelevent to the argument. Overdose code should be the kind of mod that someone could implement in a lunchbreak or something, if they put their mind to it. That said, considering the reletive use of drugs, how much return does it generate compared to mods to clothes? Every character wears clothes and it's fair to consider it reasonably essential. The same can't be said for drugs.

Black markets, cyberware and GMs: GM's don't need coded cyberware to create black markets or plots. That's just crazy talk.

No, I suppose the effects messages would be just a script, I'll concede that point without question. �As for the overdose effects and the time to code it, that was exactly my point. �An 'efficient' bit of code. �While I would not consider drugs essential, they certaintly should play an integral role. �Coding overdoses would help to eliminate the characters that I (and at least one other according to a post in another thread), have seen spamming eating drugs. � Simple, quick, adds to realism, and game balance and moves us -farther- from being the CS2 you (rightly) rail against us becomming.

You're right. �GMs don't need coded cyberware and black markets for plots. �And I'm glad that's not what I said. �I said that this (coded cyberware and the black markets it would create) opens up for -richer- plot material for GMs.

–------------------------------------

Johnny�s Idea:

�I see there being a setting on $material that defines the base material

This setting would relate to a data store that remembers the important things about that base material.
I.e. it�s flame retardant (-5 to heat damage), it�s value is 7 times that of cloth.
That in turn is used by inspections, value calls, and tailor skill checks to test their competency with a 'tougher' base material, as well as the armour system to include such modifiers

Materials would be mixable too.

So you'd have a composite material that gains both properties, with some sort of penalty tied to the number of base materials being composited

Since the base materials are handled as a look up, the system could grow to have these features of compositing as well as exclusive materials (can't mix the cold protecting material with the heat protecting material, or some such)

Compositing would merge the properties of the materials

So like a $material object would have a .bases property with a possible value of {"cotton", "pvc", "asbestos"}

The base materials don't actually exist
They just live in a lookup table that defines their properties
The material objects point to their bases

When I need to get the value of a material object, I'll call a verb that calculates it

When I need to get the protective qualities of it, I'll do something similar

If we encapsulate things right, it won't appear that much different

I'm not clear on how I want to require the material name in the description/worn/name/whatever�

-- I believe that it could just be anywhere in @worn, @describe and the name, or otherwise appended in  ! person's name style if it's not included.
An OOC warning could also exist if that is seen as necessary.

--------------------------------------

My Idea:

I�m going to use the example of a suit.

�Look suit jacket�
<description of suit>
Lining the inside of the <clothing item name> (%t) is a <attached armour material name>.

This could be followed by a possible description, thus, <@describe of armour lining material>

Once one enters attach <armour material> to <clothing item>, the armour becomes subordinate much like an e-print to an e-note.

It could be made only removable by a tailor, who also must have high enough appropriate skills.

However, this is not necessary.
It would effectively be like having a suit, but giving it an extra inner lining of material similar to Nexus synth hide etc.
This means that the encumbrance is effectively the doubled cost, and the benefit it looking sharp whilst concealing light armour that protects.
Note: I don�t know if light armour affects agility (although I doubt it), but if another encumbrance is needed and this is the case, it could lower agility. However that creates complications with hats and shoes etc, and although @coverage could be considered, it seems to be too much hassle.

No chiffon or cloth like that would exist, but simply specific materials such as silk, cotton, PVC, leather, synth-leather, gauze armour, synth hide armour and wool etc.

Most could have differing quality, maybe with synthetic altertives, and have a specific price.
The name of the material must feature anywhere in @name, @describe, @worn and inspect, clearly stated.

Regarding allowing more varieties of fabrics (I had a conversation using IM, and a tailor wanted to still be able to effectively create different fabrics as is currently possible) even a tailor cannot just make materials; they would talk to their supplier and request it. Eg. An Admin puppets a supplier PC and RPs with the tailor, the tailor states the material wanted, what it�s like etc, and the Admin makes the new material from that info � taking some time, and can then be supplied to the player.
This is more realistic, doesn�t take a lot of time, and seems cool to me.

--------------------------------------

My other clothing musing, not for implementation:

Material is a sheet that can cover a whole body; a value is given to it that represents that coverage. The total value isn�t important, but the ratios are, which reflect the relative amount of material needed for the body areas existent in @coverage.

I drew generic box person to represent this, but you�ll just have to settle for a vague mental image ;)

So one sets the @describe and other messages, after naming the material, and then setting the @coverage, after which a confirmation is asked for cutting the material. If �yes� then the coverage is set and the material may now be used (existing code) and if not all of the coverage was used (which is likely) another material is spawned that is a subclass, being the same but with a lesser total coverage, the value for which is obtained by subtracting the @coverage used.
The price of the material is also set to the coverage area, so whatever the coverage percentage decrease is, is also applied to the price.
This means that one cannot make clothing into other items of greater coverage, and that one could make a pair of trousers into some short and two gloves for example.

It makes making clothing more final, adding a risk of screw ups/wrecking fabric, and so hopefully makes people take more care when making clothing, reducing typos etc.

An armour lining attach code could be used to sew fabric together, allowing for a t-shirt with armour material chest and abdomen, but cotton sleeves for example.
The desc would be singular, but the inspect would state that it�s composes of <materials>
That could even call the @coverage so:
E.g. A <name of item> (%t) composed of <material type, such as synth hide armour> covering the chest and abdomen areas and <cotton> covering the arm areas is worn.

Or

Composed of several <joined/lined> fabrics:
<synth hide armour> material covering chest and abdomen areas when worn.
<cotton> material covering the arm areas when worn.

Then @describe and @worn would either require multi fabric or each fabric.

So lining and attaching commands would exist, with lining not putting extra material description in @worn, whilst attaching does.

Both show up in inspect.
So in the example, the attached material would first be described as sleeves, and <cotton> needs to be included, so they would be cotton sleeves.

If the same material type is used in attached clothing, then no composed of message would exist in the @worn or inspect. It becomes one object. The @coverage is increased and the other fabric is discarded.

What this will enable is cool RP such as a person gets shot, so another using @trust strips off their top to be able to set the @coverage.
-Removes one arm coverage, for the shot arm, which spawns an arm coverage sized piece of fabric.
-Then modify the description of the shirt to have an arm sleeve missing
-Then @name the spawned cotton material as <improvised bandage> for example, and then either give the bandage to them to put on, or if @trust allow for dressing others (as I think it should) dress their wound with it.

Then they would walk around a missing shirt sleeve, due to it being wrapped around their upper arm, with excess material discarded etc. They could be clutching the wound with blood on the arm in the description etc (not an @naked due to the coverage), staggering around.
Then they would have to see a tailor to repair the shirt (attaching cotton material with an arm size coverage), which leads to great RP I believe.

Seeing as I�m coming up with impractical wonderings, pockets that contain all of ones items and chyen would be great also, which would make pick pocketing and looting more realistic, less tedious, and in my view of a better game balance. It takes some time to strip people�s clothing off, and it�s quite obvious, while it doesn�t take stupidly long to take money from sleeping people because anybody can remove clothing.

Of course one should be able to reach into pockets and take things, with no intention to remove clothing, which would be done automatically when using the get or steal command etc, or when pick pocketing.

However that would obviously be a bitch to code, but I�ve noticed the current coding efforts that replace the weird weight of items with some rather sound seeming longest edge measurement, which would make this idea easier to implement I believe.

This would also put an end to people pulling out hockey sticks and similar items from inside their t-shirt or trousers or wherever they feel like claiming it was kept.
So if people are packing they either carry it in a violin, or cello ;) case, or have it in their hands, as it should be :)

Hmm, anyway I�m rambling.

I apologise that this post is rather belated, being 1 month late really, but I hope that it�s still useful though :)

And I hope that that made sense *eyes*.

Right, *walks away wondering if any sane people would actually read all of that*

:)

And yeah, I agreed, and possibly even stated the ugly appended type of material word point first *shrugs*. Well anyway, I agree with Johnny�s and the first idea I think.

The other idea wasn't meant to be practical, and wasn't proposed for full consideration to be implemented, as I indicated.

:)

Well I hope that it was worth the time it took to write it up ;)

Hmm, Murphy did I not state that if the same material type was used that the @coverage would be increased accordingly and the material attached would be removed? That would mean that the material type keyword would still only have to be used once for each material type, which I think is good.

*shrugs*