[May '25] Improvements Feedback
Put your feedback for May 2025 changes here

Given that these have been around forever now but are still new… where do these Ballistech Toughshades fall in terms of eye protection? Better than neXus, lower than Protek, or are they glorified gun range safety glasses? Just looking for a general idea of how we want to feel about the armor and its ability to protect.

Thank you one, for all of the work on armor. And two, transparency around the changes. I know that transparency around the game systems, or lack of it, has been a MAJOR issue for a number of people, for the ~5 years I have been playing the game.

It is my hope that everyone pauses to reflect about how transparent this change has been. I feel like it is an excellent example of how to balance transparency against the joy of discovery and FOIC.

Is armor layering a thing? By that I mean, does the code allow for it?

IRL, layering armor has been a thing forever. Even going back to the middle ages where knights would layer metal armor over leather or padded armor.

I am always wary of using IRL as a guide for RPGs tho. =)

Firearms have a lot of incentive for use at the lower level, in any case.

I feel like you're partially agreeing with me, while also kind of saying "it's not worth it". You said a lot of attacks cover multiple nakeds, so it doesn't make sense to specifically add additional protection to individual pieces, while also stating that you want people to be able to swap out specific pieces for additional protection in specific areas.

neXus jackets and DuWear flak jackets cover the torso (chest/back, chest/back/arms, shoulders). These are primary targets in a number of attacks to my knowledge, and there are other alternatives within this Level 1 armor range to cover blunt/cut in a far greater range of targets. I legitimately do feel Level 1 should have some access to this protection level, even if it's very limited, if they feel they need just a slightest advantage against an enemy. Whether its another ganger with a 6mm or a top tier solo gunning for them with a 45.

I will however, concede that you have a greater knowledge of the combat system, so if I haven't made a good case at this point, I probably won't push further.

And cannot wait for the layering system, that will bring so much sanity!

Your COLOR leather trenchcoat should really be worn underneath of the pair of COLOR Du-Wear synth-hide pants.

Currently the trenchcoat believes that it should be layered BENEATH Du-Wear synth-leather pants.

I realize that fashion in the future has evolved, but I don't think anyone's trying to tuck their trench into their pants. =P

I've seen various people cover up their armor for various purposes from cosmetic to IC mindgames, but if the character is intentionally avoiding the shroud/hoodie meta to visibly ID themselves to the playerbase as who they are all the time, then I don't see the issue.

I'd rather people walk around in tailored clothing that might cover up their armor yet give away their identity than see people walk around in ponchos/shrouds all day or walk around helmeted in full Xo3 sets that aren't customized so they can't be ID'd (unless smallworlded, of course).

It's much less secure than wearing a poncho than you can just dye to be a different color, a set of armor that's ICly very common so can't be used to identify you, or even a digi-poncho which is coded to allow color changes on the fly.

If I were trying to identify someone I would have a much easier time with them wearing a tailored item, as opposed to a poncho.

Automating clothing based on a handful of limited keywords (something like like 80% of all the items I've ever written have none of the keywords the system knows) seems like a huge step backwards for tailoring in the name of armoring which effects a small minority of players. I don't see any clear reason why you cannot layer clothing at player preference to set layers (or simply have no layers at all and layer on application) since you can wear clothing over any armor anyway.

It's been possible to wear tailored items and accessories and fashion pieces of all sorts over armor for decades and its never presented any clear problem with evidence to support it that I know about. I think it would be a major misreading of the game's audience to make fashion more limited for the sake of combat balancing, they can be completely different systems.

"since you can wear clothing over any armor anyway"

That is not true, and has not been true since thickness was introduced. The only reason you can wear some clothing over armor is because we've manually allowed specific clothing by setting the properties that allow it (thickness -1) or because of the keywords present in the name when the item was tailored.

The changes I've made make it easier to wear clothing over armor, where appropriate. It also limits people doing weird stuff that wasn't intended, because we had to set so many items to -1 so they could be worn under things (which also allowed them to be worn over things).

"never presented any clear problem with evidence to support it that I know about"

That's because you aren't an admin who has to deal with people making items that break the thickness system and are then worn over armor, hiding it when it should not be hidden.

I haven't made these changes just to allow for armor balancing. I've made them because the existing system was not working, was difficult to balance, and had stupid side effects with basic changes.

Also, a huge portion of the game wears armor, which makes it an everybody problem.

I don't think the changes I've made introduce any meaningful restrictions on tailors that didn't already exist, and I've added a lot of transparency to how the systems work (via posts here, and help file updates) which should make it easier for tailors to know what's going to happen and why.

There is no reason someone should be wearing pants over a trenchcoat. If someone wants to RP a crazy person doing something like that, that is what @Look_place and poses is for.

You've implemented 18 object names that could be worn over, or layered over in some location, or visible upon, a coat. Does that not strike you as an extremely narrow way to conceived of clothing and design? Keep in mind layering in practical terms means as much visible in text as it does mean conceptually layered.

I just think this rubric envisions fashion as t-shirts and sweaters and coats and what order someone might get dressed in and misses the creative scope of design that tailoring can have when it comes to fashion and creative design. It might help me understand why such strict limitations have to exist if I had some idea of what kind of gameplay abuse could arise from this that isn't already possible and has always been possible?

Years ago I also asked Johnny if tailored items could be defined by the player as wearable-over-thick or not in the same way that they could be defined as see-thru or not, and he also said it would lead to abuse. I can understand creative design and fashion not being a priority for either of you but I remain confused what the abuse is that is being mitigated against by automating layers by predefined clothing keywords.

(Edited by Slither at 2:35 pm on 5/11/2025)

What about hats, can they be worn over other items?

Also do advanced disguise items like wigs and contacts have a lower layer level?

(Edited by Slither at 8:43 pm on 5/12/2025)

1. The thing about a trenchcoat and a shirt is that you can wear a trenchcoat on top of a shirt, thus doubling the protection for the areas that are covered by both.

2. You have brought up a good point about the stat debuffs. I rebalanced these at Level 3 and 4 so that smaller pieces have less of a stat impact and completely forgot to do it at Level 1 and Level 2! I will add that to my list.

one note, maybe enhance for guns, while damage buff I get why is not happening, maybe it could take form of some preventive maintenance. Like a buffer similar to the damage enhancement, which gets reduced whenever a gun would get fouled, instead of fouling the gun. This would be really helpful for certain situations, and extremely handy for smg users in general

(Edited by Slither at 12:49 pm on 5/14/2025)

Also, there are some weapons that can't be modified for damage, especially on the higher end. Right now there are other modifications that can be put on them for various other effects, but maybe a new modification kit for increased damage for non-shotgun guns (pistols, smgs and other rifles) could be considered.

Joe wearing a very specifically tailored coat doing something risky can be called out as that with the details of their clothing, whereas a poncho is just a poncho which then cycles back to the "there are thousands of people wearing ponchos" argument, thus making it almost impossible for someone to actually physically describe you or even track you, if all they have is that you were wearing a poncho.

I don't know anyone who's been creating different tailored items for every time they go out of their pad to not be identified, and honestly that sounds like a lot of effort. If that were the case, I'd probably just note it and let staff know that there's something like that happening. I've never seen that happen across the various people I've seen that have worn clothes over their armor.

I don't believe in changing the rules for the sake of some super specific niche situation that I've never seen ever happen or be a problem, or heard of happening.

If someone's creating 20 different outfits to cover their armor up, with different descriptions, to swap out at a whim/after IC events to clearly replicate the use of a poncho, then I agree that's gaming the system and is something staff would and should have stepped in/made changes about.

Proposing a change to the layering system to address an issue with a tangent on how it could POSSIBLY be abused (which hasn't happened, unless you have examples of someone wearing ten different coats and attempting to use the tailoring system as a makeshift disguise and not a tailored item, then definitely report it. I haven't personally seen it happen) only to practically reduce the amount of creativity and aesthetics in game isn't something I'm onboard with.

As others have said, if there's any advantages to be had from being able to cover your armor with tailored items, provided it's within the acceptable context I mentioned above, it only works once and it paints not only a target on your back but also gives away your whole identity to the game and a way for you to be recognized immediately. Be the killer Teletubby.

This is currently an acceptable application of tailoring to hide Xo3 body armor while respecting the materials.

All of this should fit under a shroud too.

I say this because I have done this. Maybe not in such blatant manner (save one), but according to what is laid out in the tailoring help files, this should be perfectly acceptable to create and wear in order to hide the fact there is a large amount of body armor under there. As long as descriptors indicate that this is a huge piece of clothing capable of being worn over other bulky clothes, why not?

If I as a tailor understand the system in and out so well that I can create a three piece Egyptian cotton suit that actually hides the fact your guards are wearing legit combat armor, why shouldn't I be allowed to charge an absolutely obscene amount of money for my talents?

In fact, it is the keyword system forcing me to have to come up with stupid naming like this to justify layering which is why it should be changed to something more manageable.

If the problem is hiding xo3 and above body armor, just create layers that can't be tailored to and put xo3 there.

@Veleth

I've always been under the impression that you can service request adjustments to your character's height and weight, provided its right after chargen and not like a week later.

On the subject of this (pretty cool!) new system though, if it hasn't been looked into already can the minimum height/weight people can adjust to be raised? And in chargen too if possible though that seems like a whole other beast. The amount of unrealistically tiny characters only seems to be increasing and they're kind of immersion-disruptive imo.

These should be thought of more as comment cards, not comment discussions.

However Slither, I don't think you should dissuade people bringing up ideas on this thread, just they need the understanding that this is not a place to discuss them and they shouldn't be commenting on other's posts. Putting a suggestion or two can give staff an idea of at least where players would like to go with things, if those things are probably going at the bottom of the to-do list. At the very least it will be something to bring up at the next staff meeting. And if you see an actual good idea that could be expanded you could respond directly to the idea with a request to be fleshed out in Ideas.

Also, if a player does take the time to fully sketch out an alternative suggestion to what has been implemented, and they post it on the Ideas board, it would be appreciated if you could take the time and engage with it and explain either how it sucks donkey balls, or that there are limitations preventing its implementation? Sort of mixed signals when it's asked that things be posted in the ideas or complaints sections when they are they're flat out ignored and not commented on.

Anyways…

DIRECT COMMENTARY ON CHANGES

1.) RE: Fatigue in combat,

You say the win condition was dead or unconscious. Because obviously if you go unconscious, you're dead. Do you happen to have the data on how often a weapon ended that fight from going straight to dead, and how often it was ended from going unconscious? I know very little to nothing about combat, but I'm fairly certain that there is a sort of draining factor to combat that slowly makes you more and more tired. Sort of like running out of gas. I'm fairly certain that taking a blow reduces that amount of gas left in the tank. If a combat is going 10+ rounds, that means 20 actions of either attacking while using up some gas, dodging while using up some gas, or getting smacked and getting damaged on top of probably losing even more gas. Even if the xo5 is dodging every attack, he's still floating around like a 100 lb butterfly and his gas tank needs to keep that fueled. At 15 rounds of combat he's moved 30 times.

I don't know the stats of the person in the Xo5 armor, but I believe that if you gave someone 50kg of extra inventory weight and then asked them to move 30 rooms, their fatigue and impending unconsciousness would become a factor that comes into play.

What I think might be happening is you're just watching the xo5 armor wearer get rope-a-doped and just exhaust himself until the next attack, no matter how minor, drains him of his last gas and he goes unconscious. Kinda like how the giant in plate armor tires himself out and Bugs Bunny just pushes him over with a finger.

You may be seeing the effects of weapons that are really underpowered, and aren't actually doing any damage to the body to kill. Like I said, brawling being as effective as a katana isn't showcasing how awesome brawling and martial arts could be, but how badly the katana SUCKS against the xo5. To me honestly it's a data point that is an oddity and should be investigated.

This is why I suggest running the tests again to determine if there is a drastic difference between combat ending because the fighter was rendered unconscious, and flat out deaded. If we are testing armor and balance then the weaknesses of the memento's flesh must be ignored as much as we can.

Which is why I suggested a standard cocktail of what is generally called a battle bottle. You as well as staff have acknowledged that a cocktail of candy is now a requirement for end game combat, so if end game is xo5 combat, a cocktail of chemicals running through said xo5 wearer should be taken into accounting.

If that number makes that roughly 15 round end zone move significantly, I'd suggest balancing around time to hit flatline, rather than time to hit the unconsciousness that will not be happening.

2.) Given the ability for a weapon's tech to do all of this, I would suggest that the staff discuss whether Weapons Technician should be a new license at the WJF Hall. On one hand more licensing, on the other hand licensing means giving Arms Tech mains would give the profession more legitimacy.

3.) Enhancement of melee weapons: How are melee weapons being enhanced? I can understand sharpening a sword. Or carving serrations into a knife. Or other things involving making sharp thing sharper. But what am I doing to make this crowbar hit you in the head harder? What should onlookers see as I suddenly add 7 pts of damage to a TruColor dildo (7 is a lot, right?) to signify that this mushroom print is rated for megatons?

4.) With the expansion of what Arms Tech has become, Lord of War doesn't really describe it anymore. I don't think it really did in the first place because that entire character was about the business aspect of gunrunning, not the actual idea of armor and arms maintenance. While this thread isn't the place to start farming ideas, maybe a vote on a new Advantage name down the line wouldn't be a bad idea.

These are not determined by the weapon, or the combat. This is determined by your @fatal setting or if you use 'attack' (KO) or 'kill' (make dead). No matter how much damage you do, if your @fatal is set to take mercy and you use 'attack', you will not kill the person. They will just be KO'd at 1 HP.

The only exception here is if combat has caused them to bleed. If you bleed out at any point, you will be in a dead state instead of a KO'd state.

"I'm fairly certain that there is a sort of draining factor to combat that slowly makes you more and more tired"

Yes, that's fatigue from taking actions during combat. Eventually you'll run out of fatigue and be stumbling around unable to move. This was not part of my testing. That system seems to work fine, and only comes into play when you have low endurance, or if you're doing a ton of fighting. The type of armor you are wearing does not matter for that system as I mentioned in my above post.

"What I think might be happening is you're just watching the xo5 armor wearer get rope-a-doped and just exhaust himself until the next attack"

No, that's not what is happening. It's very clear when you are ICly exhausted. I think you're worrying to much about how the sausage is made. I've got a good grip on how combat works and I'm taking everything into account. It's a good thing that Xo5 is not invincible against even unarmed attacks.

"You may be seeing the effects of weapons that are really underpowered, and aren't actually doing any damage to the body to kill."

That isn't how weapons work. See above.

"This is why I suggest running the tests again to determine if there is a drastic difference between combat ending because the fighter was rendered unconscious, and flat out deaded."

That is not required. Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

"You as well as staff have acknowledged that a cocktail of candy is now a requirement for end game combat, so if end game is xo5 combat, a cocktail of chemicals running through said xo5 wearer should be taken into accounting."

I don't think candy is a requirement, nor is Xo5. It depends on who you are fighting. At some point you can't get more UE so bumping yourself with drugs, cyber, armor and better weapons is the understandable next step – but anyone can do these things (if you can afford it) and it is just as effective as a low UE character as it is as a high UE character.

"discuss whether Weapons Technician should be a new license at the WJF Hall"

Maybe. I dunno. I don't want to add more requirements / barriers to entry for people at this point. At some point if the skill developes further, or there is an IC reason for it, perhaps.

"How are melee weapons being enhanced?"

Every weapon class has its own messages. Try it and see. As for enhancing non-weapons, sorry, that isn't possible. Anything in the game can be used as a weapon pretty much, but only specific items are $weapon's. And only $weapon's can be enhanced. Explore the system and you'll figure out the edges pretty quick. As for how they are enhanced, don't scratch the walls too much here. The goal here is making it useful.

"Have you balanced against common explosives and fire?"

Armor is balanced against these damage types.

"Speaking of explosives, were they gone over with weapon inspect to say exactly what type of damage they do"

No. Maybe I'll add that though. I'd appreciate an Ideas post about it so I don't forget.